planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:34 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:13 pm
Posts: 350
If we are to have blue flags that let pace setters pass backmarkers safely, and not interfere with each other's race, then if the race leader becomes slower than the lapped car, surely then he must be also given a blue flag or a new type of flag and maybe a radio message to let the faster back marker be unlapped?

Isn't that common sense? It does not happen often but this scenario ought to have been thought of when blue flags were introduced. It's inevitably going to happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1824
No, because then there would be an expectation for the race leader to literally slow down to let the backmarker through at a certain point. Sometimes we try to create rules to manage the exceptions, and it just introduces bigger problems.

This can be avoided by backmarkers not making aggressive overtakes, and race leaders occasionally looking in their mirrors.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
This is what happens when you have tyres designed specifically for entertainment, you have joke situations were backmarker cars are quicker than the leaders.

What you propose only really works on one on one situations like were Verstappen could afford to slow down to let Ocon pass, but what happens say if Hamilton had been less than 2 seconds behind Verstappen, would you then expect both Hamilton and Verstappen to both slow down to let Ocon pass?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3235
I don't think that leaders should be shown the blue flags to let cars a lap down through, however, I think that they should bring in rules to say you shouldn't attack / defend against a car that's on a different lap to you. Max had no reason to defend against Ocon other than pride (and his history with Ocon from Formula 3) as Ocon was 3 seconds a lap faster so wouldn't have interfered significantly with his race.

I also think that the blue flags rule should be updated as well to say that a car who is letting a leader through cannot be overtaken for position while they are being shown the blue flags.

That means that backmarkers will be incentivised to let the leaders through on the first blue flag when fighting for position as they will get two corners of protection (enabling them to recompose themselves after disadvantaging themselves to allow the leader through) - if they wait until the last one then they will be more at risk of being passed by the person they are battling with.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:54 pm
Posts: 1471
Do away with blue flags.

It's not the first time it's happened. It's not gonna be the last time it's gonna happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:24 am
Posts: 669
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


If he lets him through he'll be on his tail the entire race ruining his tyres and putting extra stress on the engine. The FI was nowhere near fast enough to gap the Red Bull.

What do you think happens if Ocon came out of the pits behind Lewis instead?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1917
Location: Miami, Florida
It was just unnecessary contact initiated by Verstappen refusing to concede and then slamming the door harshly on a driver who was waaaaaaaaaaaaay up the inside AND IN HIS FIELD OF VISION.
And if Verstappen didn't see Ocon there then his spatial awareness needs to be brought into question just as was the case with other drivers. This self ordained attitude some drivers have is not
only unnecessary, but disgusting and it needs to stop. The last guy with that opinion of himself ended up dying on the track. The sport is light years safer than back then, but it's still riddled with
PLENTY of danger and there's no reason to add to the risk factors.

Verstappen has had these types of encounters throughout his F1 career and usually he's been quite lucky the other guy was quick enough to react and avoid contact, but this time the other guy
made a proper and magnificent move down the inside and Verstappen usual antics led to heavy contact.

And the one thing no one seems to be considering in all this is that Ocon's F1 career is up in the air at the moment and looks to be without a seat for 2019 so Lewis' assessment in the pre-podium
ceremony couldn't be any more accurate!… You (Max) have more to lose there than him!

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3092
Lotus49 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


If he lets him through he'll be on his tail the entire race ruining his tyres and putting extra stress on the engine. The FI was nowhere near fast enough to gap the Red Bull.

What do you think happens if Ocon came out of the pits behind Lewis instead?


Wasn't Hamilton only 2.5seconds behind.?, let Ocon through and you sit in the dirty air through sector 2 losing time and then more time depending how quick you get back past.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
F1_Ernie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


If he lets him through he'll be on his tail the entire race ruining his tyres and putting extra stress on the engine. The FI was nowhere near fast enough to gap the Red Bull.

What do you think happens if Ocon came out of the pits behind Lewis instead?


Wasn't Hamilton only 2.5seconds behind.?, let Ocon through and you sit in the dirty air through sector 2 losing time and then more time depending how quick you get back past.


I think so, he wasn't far back anyway and they'd have crossed paths soon enough. And Ocon would've duly thrown the anchor out and kept out the way.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:59 pm
Posts: 81
Ocon had the right to un-lap himself, but he should do it cleanly because he is not racing for position. Under the current rules, lapped cars should not affect the outcome of the race. Stewards agreed and thats why he was given a penalty, and Ocon has not even issued an apology. He should take responsibility and apologize to Max. He was the one who caused the problem, and he is demonstrating a real lack of character. I sure hope he doesn't end up at Mercedes because he doesn't deserve to be in a top car.

Max on the other had should have been a little smarter and left Ocon more room, but that only comes with experience. When Max passed Lewis at the same corner earlier in the race, Lewis checked his speed and gave Max the racing line. That only comes with maturity, and Lewis has made that same mistake many times in previous years. Max will learn and just get better. He will continue to build character as a driver, and unlike Ocon, he will be a world champion one day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
F1_Ernie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


If he lets him through he'll be on his tail the entire race ruining his tyres and putting extra stress on the engine. The FI was nowhere near fast enough to gap the Red Bull.

What do you think happens if Ocon came out of the pits behind Lewis instead?


Wasn't Hamilton only 2.5seconds behind.?, let Ocon through and you sit in the dirty air through sector 2 losing time and then more time depending how quick you get back past.

Yes Hamilton was only 2.7 seconds behind, curiously after the crash Ocon was much slower than Verstappen perhaps suggesting he wanted to pass Verstappen in the small window that his tyres were fresh enough for him to be faster, so maybe Ocon was just wanting to pass Verstappen to put one over on him?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6641
Longnose wrote:
Ocon had the right to un-lap himself, but he should do it cleanly because he is not racing for position. Under the current rules, lapped cars should not affect the outcome of the race. Stewards agreed and thats why he was given a penalty, and Ocon has not even issued an apology. He should take responsibility and apologize to Max. He was the one who caused the problem, and he is demonstrating a real lack of character. I sure hope he doesn't end up at Mercedes because he doesn't deserve to be in a top car.

Max on the other had should have been a little smarter and left Ocon more room, but that only comes with experience. When Max passed Lewis at the same corner earlier in the race, Lewis checked his speed and gave Max the racing line. That only comes with maturity, and Lewis has made that same mistake many times in previous years. Max will learn and just get better. He will continue to build character as a driver, and unlike Ocon, he will be a world champion one day.


It would have been a clear move if Max did not put Ocon on the curbs. Ocon made an opportunistic move, but the crowding had Max written all over it. All Max had to do was to let him go. Who has more to lose? Especially if you consider that he was made aware of Ocon trying to pass him, why squeeze a faster car trying to overtake him?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
Siao7 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
Ocon had the right to un-lap himself, but he should do it cleanly because he is not racing for position. Under the current rules, lapped cars should not affect the outcome of the race. Stewards agreed and thats why he was given a penalty, and Ocon has not even issued an apology. He should take responsibility and apologize to Max. He was the one who caused the problem, and he is demonstrating a real lack of character. I sure hope he doesn't end up at Mercedes because he doesn't deserve to be in a top car.

Max on the other had should have been a little smarter and left Ocon more room, but that only comes with experience. When Max passed Lewis at the same corner earlier in the race, Lewis checked his speed and gave Max the racing line. That only comes with maturity, and Lewis has made that same mistake many times in previous years. Max will learn and just get better. He will continue to build character as a driver, and unlike Ocon, he will be a world champion one day.


It would have been a clear move if Max did not put Ocon on the curbs. Ocon made an opportunistic move, but the crowding had Max written all over it. All Max had to do was to let him go. Who has more to lose? Especially if you consider that he was made aware of Ocon trying to pass him, why squeeze a faster car trying to overtake him?

Instinct?

He just doesn't like to be passed?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 747
A backmarker trying to unlap himself happens maybe 1 time every couple of seasons. It’s a very rare scenario. But yes, Red Bull pit wall should have warned Verstappen and instructed him to let him by. If Ocon couldn’t pull away then Max would get right by. Hamilton was no threat, he had much older and harder tyres and no answer for Verstappen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:05 pm
Posts: 291
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
The video replay clearly shows there was zero time for a blue flag to be displayed (for either driver).

Wish I had a nickel for every time during the past 55 years that a driver punted another driver.

_________________
Short-time member, Life-Long Fan from 1965 -- More than 550 Grand Prix recorded since 1982 (all but 3), and counting...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 747
MB-BOB wrote:
The video replay clearly shows there was zero time for a blue flag to be displayed (for either driver).

Wish I had a nickel for every time during the past 55 years that a driver punted another driver.


Ocon was very close Verstappen for 2 laps and being held up apprarently. How do you think he arrived at turn 1 alongside him? There was plenty of time for blue flags.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:05 pm
Posts: 291
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Johnson wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
The video replay clearly shows there was zero time for a blue flag to be displayed (for either driver).

Wish I had a nickel for every time during the past 55 years that a driver punted another driver.


Ocon was very close Verstappen for 2 laps and being held up apprarently. How do you think he arrived at turn 1 alongside him? There was plenty of time for blue flags.

What I meant was that Ocon attempted the pass entering turn 1, and there was no time for a corner marshall to react and flash (Ocon) a blue flag -- for Verstappen's benefit -- before turn 2.

And the more I think about it, the concept of showing the race leader a blue flag at any time is purely nonsensical on its face.

Should Riciardo have been shown the blue flag while managing his lead at Monaco this year? :uhoh: Ah yea, I didn't think so.

_________________
Short-time member, Life-Long Fan from 1965 -- More than 550 Grand Prix recorded since 1982 (all but 3), and counting...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 747
Just because they didn’t show it on TV doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Blues (if used) would have been shown to Max in S3 or S2 even in the lap before. Ocon didnt just suddenly appear there suddenly he was held up for 2 full laps.

The concept of blue flag is to allow a car by you are not currently racing for position, it’s not a great leap to use it in the rare occasion a car wants to unlap - it would stop this scenario happening again wouldn’t it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 1325
wire2004 wrote:
Do away with blue flags.

It's not the first time it's happened. It's not gonna be the last time it's gonna happen.


I agree. This sport is over-regulated. The conditions that brought the blue flag rule are no longer present, just let them race. IMO it would be very entertaining to watch cars dealing with lappers. As well, Formula One does not need to maintain any rule that contributes to the boring processions.

_________________
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:28 pm
Posts: 100
Johnson wrote:
Just because they didn’t show it on TV doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Blues (if used) would have been shown to Max in S3 or S2 even in the lap before. Ocon didnt just suddenly appear there suddenly he was held up for 2 full laps.

The concept of blue flag is to allow a car by you are not currently racing for position, it’s not a great leap to use it in the rare occasion a car wants to unlap - it would stop this scenario happening again wouldn’t it?


I was just looking at lap time charts, and it doesn't really look like Ocon was faster during any part of the race. I think he just had the advantage in the last and (partly) first sector, and for a few laps on his fresher tyres. So Verstappen only had time to lose. He would essentially have been stuck behind Ocon for a lap. And even then, the Force India had been one of the cars topping the speeds chart, so he would have had trouble in the DRS zone.

It would have been silly to see the race leader fight a backmarker.

Ocon getting in his way could have well influenced his fight with Hamilton.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 4:05 pm
Posts: 197
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


Did you watch the race ? or just you dislike Max ?

Max was ahead of ocon(lapped car) and the lapped car crashed into him.
Hamilton was behind Max around 2s, every sector was crucial in that stage.

Unbelievable pace by Max this race, just Senna-esque.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6641
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
Ocon had the right to un-lap himself, but he should do it cleanly because he is not racing for position. Under the current rules, lapped cars should not affect the outcome of the race. Stewards agreed and thats why he was given a penalty, and Ocon has not even issued an apology. He should take responsibility and apologize to Max. He was the one who caused the problem, and he is demonstrating a real lack of character. I sure hope he doesn't end up at Mercedes because he doesn't deserve to be in a top car.

Max on the other had should have been a little smarter and left Ocon more room, but that only comes with experience. When Max passed Lewis at the same corner earlier in the race, Lewis checked his speed and gave Max the racing line. That only comes with maturity, and Lewis has made that same mistake many times in previous years. Max will learn and just get better. He will continue to build character as a driver, and unlike Ocon, he will be a world champion one day.


It would have been a clear move if Max did not put Ocon on the curbs. Ocon made an opportunistic move, but the crowding had Max written all over it. All Max had to do was to let him go. Who has more to lose? Especially if you consider that he was made aware of Ocon trying to pass him, why squeeze a faster car trying to overtake him?

Instinct?

He just doesn't like to be passed?


Probably, but it still lays some portion of the blame at his door


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 3:36 pm
Posts: 20
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
It was just unnecessary contact initiated by Verstappen refusing to concede and then slamming the door harshly on a driver who was waaaaaaaaaaaaay up the inside AND IN HIS FIELD OF VISION.
And if Verstappen didn't see Ocon there then his spatial awareness needs to be brought into question just as was the case with other drivers. This self ordained attitude some drivers have is not
only unnecessary, but disgusting and it needs to stop. The last guy with that opinion of himself ended up dying on the track. The sport is light years safer than back then, but it's still riddled with
PLENTY of danger and there's no reason to add to the risk factors.

Verstappen has had these types of encounters throughout his F1 career and usually he's been quite lucky the other guy was quick enough to react and avoid contact, but this time the other guy
made a proper and magnificent move down the inside and Verstappen usual antics led to heavy contact.

And the one thing no one seems to be considering in all this is that Ocon's F1 career is up in the air at the moment and looks to be without a seat for 2019 so Lewis' assessment in the pre-podium
ceremony couldn't be any more accurate!… You (Max) have more to lose there than him!



Agree 100%. I am running out of fingers counting the serious errors VES has committed due to his mix immaturity, misplaced arrogance and what appears to be an entitlement complex (I think his father is to blame there)

I thought Hamilton put it perfectly, from the perspective of a mature, professional racing river, and put him in his place after the race. If VES has any sense whatsoever, he will reflect on Hamilton's words:



Quote:
Third place Raikkonen asked: "What happened to you?"

Verstappen answered: "I got taken out by Ocon. In the lead."


The 21-year-old’s venting of anger was then interrupted by Hamilton, who had won his fifth world championship two weeks earlier.

"But he is allowed to unlap himself," he said.

"Yeah, yeah, I know," Verstappen answered. "But you can't crash into the leader, can you? Who's not doing anything crazy."

However, Hamilton temporarily managed to shut up his junior rival, demonstrating why regardless of whose fault the crash was, Verstappen should have known better.

“You had more to lose than he did,” Hamilton cut in. “He had nothing to lose and you had it all"


Of course Verstappen doesn't seem to have the cop on to stop and take in some wisdom from older wiser, more experienced heads, so his response was ultra-juvenile:

Quote:
"Easy said from his [Hamilton's] side, of course, when you are second."



All that was missing was "my Dad could beat up your Dad!".


https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorspor ... 2f61c5c815


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 892
Location: UK
Filip wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


Did you watch the race ? or just you dislike Max ?

Max was ahead of ocon(lapped car) and the lapped car crashed into him.
Hamilton was behind Max around 2s, every sector was crucial in that stage.

Unbelievable pace by Max this race, just Senna-esque.


Why is it that supporters of drivers have to assume that simply because you criticise a driver it automatically follows that the criticism indicates a 'dislike'. For MV's sake if he had given room MV would have won the race.

Ocon was daft but Verstappen wanted to prove a point. He has to decide himself if he wants to continue down that road. Would he do the same if he needed those points in his quest for the WDC?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 170
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6641
DeadKenny wrote:
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(


Really? You don't like his grin? And he deserves to be slapped for that? So the criteria for you is not liking his face and the automatically you can slap them??? Nice...

0.3 sec was for one lap, since he was crowded off the track, so you can't tell if he would continue being faster or not. He was on fresh rubber, you don't want to get stuck behind a slower car, no matter who it is. Ocon got the go-ahead to unlap himself, Max was warned about a faster car coming, so what's the big freaking deal? The only thing Max had to do was to leave space, instead of trying to put another car that was alongside him into the kerbs.

That whole sentence can be thrown back to Max, arrogant, selfish, disreputable human being. And with a few more added on. Honestly, if he didn't have great driving skills he'd be a goner a long time now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 170
Siao7 wrote:
DeadKenny wrote:
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(


Really? You don't like his grin? And he deserves to be slapped for that? So the criteria for you is not liking his face and the automatically you can slap them??? Nice...

0.3 sec was for one lap, since he was crowded off the track, so you can't tell if he would continue being faster or not. He was on fresh rubber, you don't want to get stuck behind a slower car, no matter who it is. Ocon got the go-ahead to unlap himself, Max was warned about a faster car coming, so what's the big freaking deal? The only thing Max had to do was to leave space, instead of trying to put another car that was alongside him into the kerbs.

That whole sentence can be thrown back to Max, arrogant, selfish, disreputable human being. And with a few more added on. Honestly, if he didn't have great driving skills he'd be a goner a long time now.


Not sure if you really are that stupid or just a troll ? The grin on his face said, "i know i lost you the race, and i am glad because i am a petty person who cares less about fair than he does about being a selfish oaf" and yes that deserves a slap in my opinion, as he caused an accident and didn't care ?

but clearly as a max hater, it doesn't matter to you either ? sad :(


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
MB-BOB wrote:
Johnson wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
The video replay clearly shows there was zero time for a blue flag to be displayed (for either driver).

Wish I had a nickel for every time during the past 55 years that a driver punted another driver.


Ocon was very close Verstappen for 2 laps and being held up apprarently. How do you think he arrived at turn 1 alongside him? There was plenty of time for blue flags.

What I meant was that Ocon attempted the pass entering turn 1, and there was no time for a corner marshall to react and flash (Ocon) a blue flag -- for Verstappen's benefit -- before turn 2.

And the more I think about it, the concept of showing the race leader a blue flag at any time is purely nonsensical on its face.

Should Riciardo have been shown the blue flag while managing his lead at Monaco this year? :uhoh: Ah yea, I didn't think so.

I'm lost to why you think that Ocon would have been shown a blue flag?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
Johnson wrote:
Just because they didn’t show it on TV doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Blues (if used) would have been shown to Max in S3 or S2 even in the lap before. Ocon didnt just suddenly appear there suddenly he was held up for 2 full laps.

The concept of blue flag is to allow a car by you are not currently racing for position, it’s not a great leap to use it in the rare occasion a car wants to unlap - it would stop this scenario happening again wouldn’t it?

This confuses me, are you saying that blue flags might have been used?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
wire2004 wrote:
Do away with blue flags.

It's not the first time it's happened. It's not gonna be the last time it's gonna happen.


I agree. This sport is over-regulated. The conditions that brought the blue flag rule are no longer present, just let them race. IMO it would be very entertaining to watch cars dealing with lappers. As well, Formula One does not need to maintain any rule that contributes to the boring processions.

Seeing a backmarker crash into the leader actually only gives ammunition for the need for blue flags.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
Filip wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
No he shouldnt. Verstappen should have acted like a grown up and just let Ocon thru. I imagine he would have let Alonso through and Hamilton through had they been in Ocon's position. But he and Ocon have history after Ocon beat him in F3 in 2014. Ocon passing him (despite just unlapping) would have been like a kick in the nuts to him.


Did you watch the race ? or just you dislike Max ?

Max was ahead of ocon(lapped car) and the lapped car crashed into him.
Hamilton was behind Max around 2s, every sector was crucial in that stage.

Unbelievable pace by Max this race, just Senna-esque.

Well I would say that Verstappen took the risk of racing against a lapped car, the rules state that a lapped car has the right to unlap itself if it's being held up.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
Ocon had the right to un-lap himself, but he should do it cleanly because he is not racing for position. Under the current rules, lapped cars should not affect the outcome of the race. Stewards agreed and thats why he was given a penalty, and Ocon has not even issued an apology. He should take responsibility and apologize to Max. He was the one who caused the problem, and he is demonstrating a real lack of character. I sure hope he doesn't end up at Mercedes because he doesn't deserve to be in a top car.

Max on the other had should have been a little smarter and left Ocon more room, but that only comes with experience. When Max passed Lewis at the same corner earlier in the race, Lewis checked his speed and gave Max the racing line. That only comes with maturity, and Lewis has made that same mistake many times in previous years. Max will learn and just get better. He will continue to build character as a driver, and unlike Ocon, he will be a world champion one day.


It would have been a clear move if Max did not put Ocon on the curbs. Ocon made an opportunistic move, but the crowding had Max written all over it. All Max had to do was to let him go. Who has more to lose? Especially if you consider that he was made aware of Ocon trying to pass him, why squeeze a faster car trying to overtake him?

Instinct?

He just doesn't like to be passed?


Probably, but it still lays some portion of the blame at his door

Indeed I was just giving reasons for why he felt the need to race against a lapped car.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
Geckko65 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
It was just unnecessary contact initiated by Verstappen refusing to concede and then slamming the door harshly on a driver who was waaaaaaaaaaaaay up the inside AND IN HIS FIELD OF VISION.
And if Verstappen didn't see Ocon there then his spatial awareness needs to be brought into question just as was the case with other drivers. This self ordained attitude some drivers have is not
only unnecessary, but disgusting and it needs to stop. The last guy with that opinion of himself ended up dying on the track. The sport is light years safer than back then, but it's still riddled with
PLENTY of danger and there's no reason to add to the risk factors.

Verstappen has had these types of encounters throughout his F1 career and usually he's been quite lucky the other guy was quick enough to react and avoid contact, but this time the other guy
made a proper and magnificent move down the inside and Verstappen usual antics led to heavy contact.

And the one thing no one seems to be considering in all this is that Ocon's F1 career is up in the air at the moment and looks to be without a seat for 2019 so Lewis' assessment in the pre-podium
ceremony couldn't be any more accurate!… You (Max) have more to lose there than him!



Agree 100%. I am running out of fingers counting the serious errors VES has committed due to his mix immaturity, misplaced arrogance and what appears to be an entitlement complex (I think his father is to blame there)

I thought Hamilton put it perfectly, from the perspective of a mature, professional racing river, and put him in his place after the race. If VES has any sense whatsoever, he will reflect on Hamilton's words:



Quote:
Third place Raikkonen asked: "What happened to you?"

Verstappen answered: "I got taken out by Ocon. In the lead."


The 21-year-old’s venting of anger was then interrupted by Hamilton, who had won his fifth world championship two weeks earlier.

"But he is allowed to unlap himself," he said.

"Yeah, yeah, I know," Verstappen answered. "But you can't crash into the leader, can you? Who's not doing anything crazy."

However, Hamilton temporarily managed to shut up his junior rival, demonstrating why regardless of whose fault the crash was, Verstappen should have known better.

“You had more to lose than he did,” Hamilton cut in. “He had nothing to lose and you had it all"


Of course Verstappen doesn't seem to have the cop on to stop and take in some wisdom from older wiser, more experienced heads, so his response was ultra-juvenile:

Quote:
"Easy said from his [Hamilton's] side, of course, when you are second."



All that was missing was "my Dad could beat up your Dad!".


https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorspor ... 2f61c5c815

Yep, Hamilton was just speaking from experience of his own mistakes that he has made in the past but Verstappen as always it seems knows better.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28700
DeadKenny wrote:
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(

I would agree with this in that I would question how much Ocon was being held up and what the desire was to pass Verstappen an old foe?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6641
DeadKenny wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeadKenny wrote:
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(


Really? You don't like his grin? And he deserves to be slapped for that? So the criteria for you is not liking his face and the automatically you can slap them??? Nice...

0.3 sec was for one lap, since he was crowded off the track, so you can't tell if he would continue being faster or not. He was on fresh rubber, you don't want to get stuck behind a slower car, no matter who it is. Ocon got the go-ahead to unlap himself, Max was warned about a faster car coming, so what's the big freaking deal? The only thing Max had to do was to leave space, instead of trying to put another car that was alongside him into the kerbs.

That whole sentence can be thrown back to Max, arrogant, selfish, disreputable human being. And with a few more added on. Honestly, if he didn't have great driving skills he'd be a goner a long time now.


Not sure if you really are that stupid or just a troll ? The grin on his face said, "i know i lost you the race, and i am glad because i am a petty person who cares less about fair than he does about being a selfish oaf" and yes that deserves a slap in my opinion, as he caused an accident and didn't care ?

but clearly as a max hater, it doesn't matter to you either ? sad :(


I thought of reporting your message, but I'll skip it this time. No reason for personal attacks if you don't like what is written. So why don't you cut the macho bravado behind your keyboard cr*p straight away? Let's try to have a discussion here.

So you know what Ocon was thinking right? You do?

The accident was caused by Max crowding a car that was alongside him. If he had a legit reason to be there is another matter altogether, but the accident was caused by Max.

I'm not a Max hater, thank you, I actually think that alongside a couple of other drivers the kid is the future. I do not however care much about his attitude, if you can't see that then I don't know what to do about it, apart from not caring much about your opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 170
Siao7 wrote:
DeadKenny wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeadKenny wrote:
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(


Really? You don't like his grin? And he deserves to be slapped for that? So the criteria for you is not liking his face and the automatically you can slap them??? Nice...

0.3 sec was for one lap, since he was crowded off the track, so you can't tell if he would continue being faster or not. He was on fresh rubber, you don't want to get stuck behind a slower car, no matter who it is. Ocon got the go-ahead to unlap himself, Max was warned about a faster car coming, so what's the big freaking deal? The only thing Max had to do was to leave space, instead of trying to put another car that was alongside him into the kerbs.

That whole sentence can be thrown back to Max, arrogant, selfish, disreputable human being. And with a few more added on. Honestly, if he didn't have great driving skills he'd be a goner a long time now.


Not sure if you really are that stupid or just a troll ? The grin on his face said, "i know i lost you the race, and i am glad because i am a petty person who cares less about fair than he does about being a selfish oaf" and yes that deserves a slap in my opinion, as he caused an accident and didn't care ?

but clearly as a max hater, it doesn't matter to you either ? sad :(


I thought of reporting your message, but I'll skip it this time. No reason for personal attacks if you don't like what is written. So why don't you cut the macho bravado behind your keyboard cr*p straight away? Let's try to have a discussion here.

So you know what Ocon was thinking right? You do?

The accident was caused by Max crowding a car that was alongside him. If he had a legit reason to be there is another matter altogether, but the accident was caused by Max.

I'm not a Max hater, thank you, I actually think that alongside a couple of other drivers the kid is the future. I do not however care much about his attitude, if you can't see that then I don't know what to do about it, apart from not caring much about your opinion.



Report me or Don't, but saying you thought about it ?

that just reinforces everything i suspected about your motives :(

'Unfortunately it is not worth discussing anything with someone who hasn't the ability to see things from a different perspective, or willing to consider just how wrong they might be :(


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6641
DeadKenny wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeadKenny wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeadKenny wrote:
Ocon was only 0.3 secs faster (not enough for any other car to overtake reasonably) and only for one lap, Therefore trying to suggest there was some need to unlap himself was only in Ocon's mind and probably because it was Max.

I have been a big fan of Ocon this season, but i can absolutely say that if he doesn't end up back , I won't be losing any sleep, the guy showed himself to be arrogant, selfish, (and with that disreputable grin that deserved to be slapped off his face) a pretty disreputable and petty human being :(

Gonna take something special to ever get me back on his side :( sad little man :(


Really? You don't like his grin? And he deserves to be slapped for that? So the criteria for you is not liking his face and the automatically you can slap them??? Nice...

0.3 sec was for one lap, since he was crowded off the track, so you can't tell if he would continue being faster or not. He was on fresh rubber, you don't want to get stuck behind a slower car, no matter who it is. Ocon got the go-ahead to unlap himself, Max was warned about a faster car coming, so what's the big freaking deal? The only thing Max had to do was to leave space, instead of trying to put another car that was alongside him into the kerbs.

That whole sentence can be thrown back to Max, arrogant, selfish, disreputable human being. And with a few more added on. Honestly, if he didn't have great driving skills he'd be a goner a long time now.


Not sure if you really are that stupid or just a troll ? The grin on his face said, "i know i lost you the race, and i am glad because i am a petty person who cares less about fair than he does about being a selfish oaf" and yes that deserves a slap in my opinion, as he caused an accident and didn't care ?

but clearly as a max hater, it doesn't matter to you either ? sad :(


I thought of reporting your message, but I'll skip it this time. No reason for personal attacks if you don't like what is written. So why don't you cut the macho bravado behind your keyboard cr*p straight away? Let's try to have a discussion here.

So you know what Ocon was thinking right? You do?

The accident was caused by Max crowding a car that was alongside him. If he had a legit reason to be there is another matter altogether, but the accident was caused by Max.

I'm not a Max hater, thank you, I actually think that alongside a couple of other drivers the kid is the future. I do not however care much about his attitude, if you can't see that then I don't know what to do about it, apart from not caring much about your opinion.



Report me or Don't, but saying you thought about it ?

that just reinforces everything i suspected about your motives :(

'Unfortunately it is not worth discussing anything with someone who hasn't the ability to see things from a different perspective, or willing to consider just how wrong they might be :(


Reporting the personal attack, not the difference of opinion, surely you can understand that... You can't be that obtuse


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 594
Location: Far North of Scotland
Ocon was a bit of a prat for trying the move.

However.... what the hell was Verstappen thinking defending so aggressively?

I actually agree with Hamiltons take on it. Whether Ocon should be there is neither here nor there (he shouldn't be trying that), the fact is he was there, Verstappen knew he was there, and tried to close the door aggressively - he relied totally on Ocon backing out.

Unfortunately it is hard to have sympathy. Karma, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6205
Location: Michigan, USA
Badgeronimous wrote:
However.... what the hell was Verstappen thinking defending so aggressively?

Max wasn't defending at all. He just took his usual racing line and assumed Ocon would get out of the way. Still a questionable choice, but I don't believe he had any intention of defending from Ocon - he just assumed Ocon wasn't going to go for the move.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Black_Flag_11 and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group