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Which driver won each intra-team battle in Abu Dhabi?
Poll ended at Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:30 pm
Hamilton 12%  12%  [ 14 ]
Bottas 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 10%  10%  [ 12 ]
Raikkonen 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Ricciardo 4%  4%  [ 5 ]
Verstappen 7%  7%  [ 8 ]
Perez 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
Ocon 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Stroll 4%  4%  [ 5 ]
Sirotkin 5%  5%  [ 6 ]
Sainz 10%  10%  [ 12 ]
Hulkenberg 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Gasly 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
Hartley 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Grosjean 7%  7%  [ 9 ]
Magnussen 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Alonso 8%  8%  [ 10 ]
Vandoorne 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Ericsson 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc 10%  10%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 121
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:30 pm 
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The results from Brazil:

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Updated totals for the season are as follows:

Hamilton 16-4 Bottas (70/30)
Vettel 12-8 Raikkonen (55/45)
Ricciardo 7-13 Verstappen (43/57)
Perez 8-11 Ocon (48/52)
Stroll 13-6 Sirotkin (63/37)
Hulkenberg 9-9 Sainz (55/45)
Gasly 14-6 Hartley (70/30)
Magnussen 12-8 Grosjean (65/35)
Alonso 16-4 Vandoorne (87/13)
Ericsson 6-14 Leclerc (30/70)

- By virtue of taking his fourth successive TMW victory and Stoffel Vandoorne actually taking a couple of TMW wins, Lewis Hamilton has now equaled Fernando Alonso as the driver with the highest number of TMW wins this year. For Valtteri Bottas, it's the second race in a row in which he received no votes, an unwanted feat he joins Daniel Ricciardo (France/Austria) and Marcus Ericsson (Canada/France) as one of only three drivers to have 'achieved'. It's also his fourth race with no votes from the last six.
- There is still life in the Iceman yet! A third TMW victory from the last four races represents a nice bounce-back for Kimi after registering his first zero vote race in Russia, whilst also arguably being the first TMW vote he's won since Australia that wasn't assisted by a Vettel error. In France, Vettel hit Bottas; In Austria, Seb took a grid penalty after blocking; we all know what happened in Germany; and in Italy, Japan and Texas, Seb was sent spinning around after contact. That's not to say Kimi didn't outperform Seb at some of those events regardless, but it has been a while since Kimi won a TMW vote where Seb didn't compromise himself.
- A closer vote between two Red Bulls but the end result was the same as it has been for most races since Monaco: Max Verstappen takes another TMW win. It's now 13-7 to Max as what was once a close battle has quickly become incredibly comfortable for the young Dutch driver.
- After a poor run of TMW results between Austria and Russia, Sergio Perez is having a much stronger finish to the year, adding a TMW win in Brazil to victories in both Mexico and Japan. It further reduces the gap between the two to 11-8, as well as further narrowing the percentage difference.
- Having had one tie all season (Force India in Germany), we've now had three in the last two races! After the Sainz/Hulkenberg tie in Mexico, we can now add Williams in Brazil to the list. Only a total of ten votes were cast for the two Williams drivers - the lowest total for any pairing at an individual race in 2018 - suggesting people found it hard to really evaluate their performance in Brazil. As a team they've received comfortably the least votes, a total of 472. Toro Rosso are the only other team still to reach the 500 vote mark, while both Mercedes (628) and Ferrari (617) have topped the 600 mark, illustrating the difficulty in comparing two drivers trundling around at the back of the pack.
- Talking of ties, would you believe that Renault have shared the spoils again? For the second race in a row there was apparently nothing to split Hulkenberg and Sainz, leaving them deadlocked at nine TMW victories each...
- Despite his teammate's reluctance to obey team orders, Brendon Hartley still picked up his second TMW victory in three races. It doesn't do a great deal to make the totals for the season look any better for him, and with Alex Albon's brief association with the Nissan Formula E team already coming to an end it looks increasingly clear that he won't be in F1 next year, but... well, actually, I can't think of a but here. Too little, too late!
- After Kevin Magnussen dominated the opening six races, then Romain Grosjean responded with six TMW wins in nine races, the Haas pair have apparently elected to take it in turns to claim the TMW honours. As for the sixth race in a row it's a different Haas driver who got your vote, with Grosjean picking up the win in Brazil.
- Oh, if only the season was 30 races long, maybe Stoffel Vandoorne might have saved his seat! A season-high third consecutive TMW win for the Belgium means he now *only* trails his departing two-time World Champion teammate 16-4 on the year. Anyone would think Fernando Alonso has been phoning it in a bit in his last couple of races...
- For the second time in 2018, Charles Leclerc has strung together a seventh TMW win in a row, extending his lead to 14-6 over IndyCar-bound Marcus Ericsson. With an eighth win in a row surely coming courtesy of another strong performance, he will tie Lewis Hamilton for the second longest string on TMW wins, just one shy of the nine in a row Fernando Alonso rattled off.

Once this vote closes, I'll probably post a new thread confirming all the results for the season, as well as some other statistics and information. If there is anything in particular you would like to ask, or any stats you particularly want to see, mention them in your reply and I'll do my best to accommodate the request (if it's not too time consuming!)

Also, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to vote and/or comment in these threads. It's by no means a perfect science, and I would prefer if the votes were public (if only so we can ridicule those who are voting for certain drivers regardless) but I think there are enough votes to give it some kind of vague meaning. It's actually been a fun thing to collate and to see how each intra-team battle has developed over the course of the year. I certainly intend to continue this into 2019. In the meantime I'm going to be creating an individual thread for each of the ten 2019 pairings, probably one every ten days/two weeks, so keep a look out for those. The first is already live, which is the Williams one.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:23 pm 
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I don't see this as being a very tough batch, although I already know there's one where I'm going to disagree with a lot of people...

In what I expect to be against the flow, I'm giving my vote to Ricciardo. In a race where overtaking an equal car was apparently almost impossible, the fact that his strategy got him stuck behind his (at that point) much slower teammate dictated his finishing position, but I don't think Max did a better job over the weekend. In fact, I think that if he had let Ricciardo through Vettel might have come under some pressure.

For the rest: Hamilton, Vettel, Perez, Stroll, Sainz, Gasly, Grosjean, Alonso, Leclerc. If anyone wants to know my reasoning on the rest I'll supply it, but I see all of those as pretty clear cut.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:40 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I don't see this as being a very tough batch, although I already know there's one where I'm going to disagree with a lot of people...

In what I expect to be against the flow, I'm giving my vote to Ricciardo. In a race where overtaking an equal car was apparently almost impossible, the fact that his strategy got him stuck behind his (at that point) much slower teammate dictated his finishing position, but I don't think Max did a better job over the weekend. In fact, I think that if he had let Ricciardo through Vettel might have come under some pressure.

For the rest: Hamilton, Vettel, Perez, Stroll, Sainz, Gasly, Grosjean, Alonso, Leclerc. If anyone wants to know my reasoning on the rest I'll supply it, but I see all of those as pretty clear cut.

Same here Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen and was running in front of Verstappen before Red Bull basically changed the positions of the cars.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:16 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't see this as being a very tough batch, although I already know there's one where I'm going to disagree with a lot of people...

In what I expect to be against the flow, I'm giving my vote to Ricciardo. In a race where overtaking an equal car was apparently almost impossible, the fact that his strategy got him stuck behind his (at that point) much slower teammate dictated his finishing position, but I don't think Max did a better job over the weekend. In fact, I think that if he had let Ricciardo through Vettel might have come under some pressure.

For the rest: Hamilton, Vettel, Perez, Stroll, Sainz, Gasly, Grosjean, Alonso, Leclerc. If anyone wants to know my reasoning on the rest I'll supply it, but I see all of those as pretty clear cut.

Same here Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen and was running in front of Verstappen before Red Bull basically changed the positions of the cars.


Yeah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Red Bill's strategy was a bit weird. Verstappen drove a good race but beat Ricciardo because he got a better strategy IMO.

For the rest, I agree with Exediron above. Wasn't a particularly difficult race to judge.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:26 pm 
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I struggle to understand the reasons why Leclerc ot so many votes over Ericsson in Brazil. As we know, it takes quite a good qualifying session for Ericsson to outqualify Leclerc, or a bad one from Leclerc. Take note of this. Then Ericsson had problems before the race began. Everything else when comparing them seens to have just been based on past results as there was nothing to compare them in this race. Qualifying was the only thing and Leclerc did have several attempts, but just could't match Ericsson. Really surprised just me and 1 other went for Ericsson while 13 for his team mate. Too many seem to have forgot about qualifying and just assume Ericsson will be much slower. I won't argue that this weekend and almost every other, Leclerc should win the team mate wars.

It is clear that Ricciardo outqualifying Verstappen is having some input on peoples decisions this weekend, which makes sence, but last weekend with Ericsson doing the same on his team mate (which is so rare) seems to have been ignored.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:13 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I struggle to understand the reasons why Leclerc ot so many votes over Ericsson in Brazil. As we know, it takes quite a good qualifying session for Ericsson to outqualify Leclerc, or a bad one from Leclerc. Take note of this. Then Ericsson had problems before the race began. Everything else when comparing them seens to have just been based on past results as there was nothing to compare them in this race. Qualifying was the only thing and Leclerc did have several attempts, but just could't match Ericsson. Really surprised just me and 1 other went for Ericsson while 13 for his team mate. Too many seem to have forgot about qualifying and just assume Ericsson will be much slower. I won't argue that this weekend and almost every other, Leclerc should win the team mate wars.

It is clear that Ricciardo outqualifying Verstappen is having some input on peoples decisions this weekend, which makes sence, but last weekend with Ericsson doing the same on his team mate (which is so rare) seems to have been ignored.

This feels like a football game were a team gets beat 7-0 and they complain if not for the referee they would have only lost 5-0.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I struggle to understand the reasons why Leclerc ot so many votes over Ericsson in Brazil. As we know, it takes quite a good qualifying session for Ericsson to outqualify Leclerc, or a bad one from Leclerc. Take note of this. Then Ericsson had problems before the race began. Everything else when comparing them seens to have just been based on past results as there was nothing to compare them in this race. Qualifying was the only thing and Leclerc did have several attempts, but just could't match Ericsson. Really surprised just me and 1 other went for Ericsson while 13 for his team mate. Too many seem to have forgot about qualifying and just assume Ericsson will be much slower. I won't argue that this weekend and almost every other, Leclerc should win the team mate wars.

It is clear that Ricciardo outqualifying Verstappen is having some input on peoples decisions this weekend, which makes sence, but last weekend with Ericsson doing the same on his team mate (which is so rare) seems to have been ignored.

This feels like a football game were a team gets beat 7-0 and they complain if not for the referee they would have only lost 5-0.

I'm not thinking about the amount of times Leclerc has beaten him, I'm saying it seems unfair to say he did on this weekend given what we got to see when they were both running.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:34 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I'm not thinking about the amount of times Leclerc has beaten him, I'm saying it seems unfair to say he did on this weekend given what we got to see when they were both running.

But I don't know why you're saying that. In Brazil you had a good point: Ericsson qualified ahead and we never got to see if he could beat Leclerc in the race. But in Abu Dhabi, Leclerc qualified ahead and ran ahead until he pitted, at which point Ericsson - who hadn't pitted yet - naturally slotted in ahead of him. Leclerc's strategy proved to be very sub optimal due to being caught behind Alonso for most of the race, but he was only 6 seconds behind Ericsson when Marcus retired, still yet to make his pit stop. It's safe to assume that Leclerc would have finished ahead if both cars had reached the flag.

So what's your argument that Marcus might have actually been better? He wasn't beaten by the margin he sometimes is - 3 tenths in quali instead of 7 - but I don't see any reason at all to give him the victory over Charles this time.

EDIT: Having gone back and looked at your first post, I realize I was confused by 'this weekend' in the quoted text. It seems you are talking about Brazil, in which case yes, Ericsson deserved some more votes than he got. But look at this weekend: Verstappen is still beating Ricciardo, despite several people voicing the opinion that he shouldn't be. Whoever finishes ahead (or finishes) is very likely to get the points, particularly if they're the favored driver anyway.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I'm not thinking about the amount of times Leclerc has beaten him, I'm saying it seems unfair to say he did on this weekend given what we got to see when they were both running.

But I don't know why you're saying that. In Brazil you had a good point: Ericsson qualified ahead and we never got to see if he could beat Leclerc in the race. But in Abu Dhabi, Leclerc qualified ahead and ran ahead until he pitted, at which point Ericsson - who hadn't pitted yet - naturally slotted in ahead of him. Leclerc's strategy proved to be very sub optimal due to being caught behind Alonso for most of the race, but he was only 6 seconds behind Ericsson when Marcus retired, still yet to make his pit stop. It's safe to assume that Leclerc would have finished ahead if both cars had reached the flag.

So what's your argument that Marcus might have actually been better? He wasn't beaten by the margin he sometimes is - 3 tenths in quali instead of 7 - but I don't see any reason at all to give him the victory over Charles this time.

EDIT: Having gone back and looked at your first post, I realize I was confused by 'this weekend' in the quoted text. It seems you are talking about Brazil, in which case yes, Ericsson deserved some more votes than he got. But look at this weekend: Verstappen is still beating Ricciardo, despite several people voicing the opinion that he shouldn't be. Whoever finishes ahead (or finishes) is very likely to get the points, particularly if they're the favored driver anyway.

Yes, sorry i was specifically talking about last weekend as it does relate to this thread as we can see the results from it. I also mentioned the Ricciardo and Verstappen thing this weekend. That does seem to be a similar case. But I do think Verstappen did do better during the race. Where as last weekend, Ericsson had problems before the race began so i thought more than just 2 people would use qualifying for the main comparison.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:28 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't see this as being a very tough batch, although I already know there's one where I'm going to disagree with a lot of people...

In what I expect to be against the flow, I'm giving my vote to Ricciardo. In a race where overtaking an equal car was apparently almost impossible, the fact that his strategy got him stuck behind his (at that point) much slower teammate dictated his finishing position, but I don't think Max did a better job over the weekend. In fact, I think that if he had let Ricciardo through Vettel might have come under some pressure.

For the rest: Hamilton, Vettel, Perez, Stroll, Sainz, Gasly, Grosjean, Alonso, Leclerc. If anyone wants to know my reasoning on the rest I'll supply it, but I see all of those as pretty clear cut.

Same here Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen and was running in front of Verstappen before Red Bull basically changed the positions of the cars.


Yeah I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Red Bill's strategy was a bit weird. Verstappen drove a good race but beat Ricciardo because he got a better strategy IMO.

For the rest, I agree with Exediron above. Wasn't a particularly difficult race to judge.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:03 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I'm not thinking about the amount of times Leclerc has beaten him, I'm saying it seems unfair to say he did on this weekend given what we got to see when they were both running.

But I don't know why you're saying that. In Brazil you had a good point: Ericsson qualified ahead and we never got to see if he could beat Leclerc in the race. But in Abu Dhabi, Leclerc qualified ahead and ran ahead until he pitted, at which point Ericsson - who hadn't pitted yet - naturally slotted in ahead of him. Leclerc's strategy proved to be very sub optimal due to being caught behind Alonso for most of the race, but he was only 6 seconds behind Ericsson when Marcus retired, still yet to make his pit stop. It's safe to assume that Leclerc would have finished ahead if both cars had reached the flag.

So what's your argument that Marcus might have actually been better? He wasn't beaten by the margin he sometimes is - 3 tenths in quali instead of 7 - but I don't see any reason at all to give him the victory over Charles this time.

EDIT: Having gone back and looked at your first post, I realize I was confused by 'this weekend' in the quoted text. It seems you are talking about Brazil, in which case yes, Ericsson deserved some more votes than he got. But look at this weekend: Verstappen is still beating Ricciardo, despite several people voicing the opinion that he shouldn't be. Whoever finishes ahead (or finishes) is very likely to get the points, particularly if they're the favored driver anyway.

Yes, sorry i was specifically talking about last weekend as it does relate to this thread as we can see the results from it. I also mentioned the Ricciardo and Verstappen thing this weekend. That does seem to be a similar case. But I do think Verstappen did do better during the race. Where as last weekend, Ericsson had problems before the race began so i thought more than just 2 people would use qualifying for the main comparison.


Most probably assumed that Ericsson was unlikely to match Leclerc's pace over an entire race. Something that has been true for most of 2018.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:58 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I also mentioned the Ricciardo and Verstappen thing this weekend. That does seem to be a similar case. But I do think Verstappen did do better during the race.


In Abu Dhabi? I'd like to see the numbers to back that up.

Ricciardo lead Max when Verstappen pit, but came out 8s behind. Max finished the year two points ahead of Bottas. If he'd finished fourth in Abu Dhabi (and Ricciardo third) he'd have finished one point behind Valtteri. The result was undeniably orchestrated by Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:00 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Ricciardo lead Max when Verstappen pit, but came out 8s behind. Max finished the year two points ahead of Bottas. If he'd finished fourth in Abu Dhabi (and Ricciardo third) he'd have finished one point behind Valtteri. The result was undeniably orchestrated by Red Bull.

I am 99% certain Ricciardo was under orders not to overtake Max. At the end of the race when Max had oil sprayed all over his visor by Gasly, he lost 6 seconds in one lap - but Ricciardo still didn't pass him. The only reason I can see is team orders.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Ricciardo lead Max when Verstappen pit, but came out 8s behind. Max finished the year two points ahead of Bottas. If he'd finished fourth in Abu Dhabi (and Ricciardo third) he'd have finished one point behind Valtteri. The result was undeniably orchestrated by Red Bull.

I am 99% certain Ricciardo was under orders not to overtake Max. At the end of the race when Max had oil sprayed all over his visor by Gasly, he lost 6 seconds in one lap - but Ricciardo still didn't pass him. The only reason I can see is team orders.


Not sure if he would care about team orders as it was last GP and he's leaving the team anyway. I had a feeling his tyres were quick only on first few laps and then his pace was comparable to the rest and not good enough to overtake.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:01 am 
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Mayox wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Ricciardo lead Max when Verstappen pit, but came out 8s behind. Max finished the year two points ahead of Bottas. If he'd finished fourth in Abu Dhabi (and Ricciardo third) he'd have finished one point behind Valtteri. The result was undeniably orchestrated by Red Bull.

I am 99% certain Ricciardo was under orders not to overtake Max. At the end of the race when Max had oil sprayed all over his visor by Gasly, he lost 6 seconds in one lap - but Ricciardo still didn't pass him. The only reason I can see is team orders.

Not sure if he would care about team orders as it was last GP and he's leaving the team anyway. I had a feeling his tyres were quick only on first few laps and then his pace was comparable to the rest and not good enough to overtake.

You don't need good pace to overtake a car that drops 6 seconds in one lap, though. It should have been trivial to overtake Max at that point - unless maybe Ricciardo also got the oil on his visor?

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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
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