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Which of the 2019 drivers is the most underrated?
Bottas 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
Leclerc 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Gasly 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Hulkenberg 16%  16%  [ 9 ]
Magnussen 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Grosjean 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Sainz 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Perez 19%  19%  [ 11 ]
Stroll 21%  21%  [ 12 ]
Raikkonen 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
Other 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 58
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Noni wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Perhaps Grosjean. He finished behing K-Mag in the points table, but in recent times when both have clean races it tends to be Grosjean who is ahead. I think he'll have a much stronger 2019.


I would agree with you, however most years he's been involved in some sort of driver error of sorts and crashes.

Grosjean was terrible in the first half of the season.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:46 pm 
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Noni wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Looking at Bottas' rating on the best driver line ups for 2019, I voted for him.


My heart goes out to Bottas, he could of had a better year had this bad luck not effected him. I hope he gets a chance to score a couple more wins next year. I don't think after 2019, his contract will get re-newed :-(( ...Which is very sad indeed!!.... I also voted for him as well.

In all fairness to Bottas, he did the job Mercedes wanted of him and did bloody well at it IMO...

With Bottas it's a bit of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, he played his part and probably would be good for 2020 if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Noni wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Perhaps Grosjean. He finished behing K-Mag in the points table, but in recent times when both have clean races it tends to be Grosjean who is ahead. I think he'll have a much stronger 2019.


I would agree with you, however most years he's been involved in some sort of driver error of sorts and crashes.

Grosjean was terrible in the first half of the season.


Yep, stringing together quality over a whole season has always been his downfall. For a driver who debuted in 2009 that really shouldn't be the case. It might be wishful thinking but I really do think that on his day he's pretty much top drawer. Those days just don't come often enough.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:57 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:

The most underrated driver of the last 20 years is Jarno Trulli.

Along with Hamilton, Trulli is the only driver who has beaten Alonso in qualifying as teammates. Likewise, unlike other journeymen of his era (DC, Rubens, Webber, Fisi) he never got an opportunity to drive a great car.


Off topic I know but Trulli was performing so strongly in early 2001 that he was being linked with a Mclaren drive for 2002. Kimi's Sauber form and 5 straight Trulli retirements put paid to that.

In later interviews he has not been very complimentary about Mclaren. Perhaps missing out on that drive hurt him.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:59 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:42 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Image
source:f1metrics.com

That chart gets confusing when you factor that Raikkonen has beaten Fisichella driving in the same team. Also Fisichella beat Button while they were teammates at Benetton. Its hard to see which is the better driver to challenge Alonso. Too many factors involved.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:35 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Image
source:f1metrics.com


Shows that Vandoorne was not that bad.

Some of the numbers are skewed by race-fuel qualifying, aren't they?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:28 am 
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as always to answer that you need to know where drivers are actually rated overall. I used to do this as a Poll every year.

Anyway, I think the genera perception is right for most of them but there's a strong case for Gasly. With the excitement around Leclerc and Ocon he's been in the shadows a bit but I think he looks pretty handy on occasion.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Noni wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Looking at Bottas' rating on the best driver line ups for 2019, I voted for him.


My heart goes out to Bottas, he could of had a better year had this bad luck not effected him. I hope he gets a chance to score a couple more wins next year. I don't think after 2019, his contract will get re-newed :-(( ...Which is very sad indeed!!.... I also voted for him as well.

In all fairness to Bottas, he did the job Mercedes wanted of him and did bloody well at it IMO...

With Bottas it's a bit of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, he played his part and probably would be good for 2020 if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

Honestly I'm starting to come around to the perspective that Ocon isn't that amazing. I don't think he's faster than Bottas and I do get the sense that bringing him in would be a completely lateral move.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:28 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Noni wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Looking at Bottas' rating on the best driver line ups for 2019, I voted for him.


My heart goes out to Bottas, he could of had a better year had this bad luck not effected him. I hope he gets a chance to score a couple more wins next year. I don't think after 2019, his contract will get re-newed :-(( ...Which is very sad indeed!!.... I also voted for him as well.

In all fairness to Bottas, he did the job Mercedes wanted of him and did bloody well at it IMO...

With Bottas it's a bit of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, he played his part and probably would be good for 2020 if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

Honestly I'm starting to come around to the perspective that Ocon isn't that amazing. I don't think he's faster than Bottas and I do get the sense that bringing him in would be a completely lateral move.

Ocon is amazing up to the point of getting beat by Hamilton then he will struggle to get on many peoples top 10 lists.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:03 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Noni wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Looking at Bottas' rating on the best driver line ups for 2019, I voted for him.


My heart goes out to Bottas, he could of had a better year had this bad luck not effected him. I hope he gets a chance to score a couple more wins next year. I don't think after 2019, his contract will get re-newed :-(( ...Which is very sad indeed!!.... I also voted for him as well.

In all fairness to Bottas, he did the job Mercedes wanted of him and did bloody well at it IMO...

With Bottas it's a bit of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, he played his part and probably would be good for 2020 if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

Honestly I'm starting to come around to the perspective that Ocon isn't that amazing. I don't think he's faster than Bottas and I do get the sense that bringing him in would be a completely lateral move.

Ocon is amazing up to the point of getting beat by Hamilton then he will struggle to get on many peoples top 10 lists.

That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Noni wrote:
My heart goes out to Bottas, he could of had a better year had this bad luck not effected him. I hope he gets a chance to score a couple more wins next year. I don't think after 2019, his contract will get re-newed :-(( ...Which is very sad indeed!!.... I also voted for him as well.

In all fairness to Bottas, he did the job Mercedes wanted of him and did bloody well at it IMO...

With Bottas it's a bit of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, he played his part and probably would be good for 2020 if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

Honestly I'm starting to come around to the perspective that Ocon isn't that amazing. I don't think he's faster than Bottas and I do get the sense that bringing him in would be a completely lateral move.

Ocon is amazing up to the point of getting beat by Hamilton then he will struggle to get on many peoples top 10 lists.

That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?

Where are these lists?

The only drivers in the midfield I think would do a better job than Bottas are Alonso (obviously), Leclerc and Perez. The rest would probably do a similar (Hulkenberg, Sainz) or worse (most of the rest) job. Ocon would probably perform similarly: I think he'd give Hamilton a little bit of a challenge in qualifying, but there's nothing to suggest he'd be a match in the races since he can't consistently beat Perez even when he out-qualifies him.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:41 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?

Where are these lists?

The only drivers in the midfield I think would do a better job than Bottas are Alonso (obviously), Leclerc and Perez. The rest would probably do a similar (Hulkenberg, Sainz) or worse (most of the rest) job. Ocon would probably perform similarly: I think he'd give Hamilton a little bit of a challenge in qualifying, but there's nothing to suggest he'd be a match in the races since he can't consistently beat Perez even when he out-qualifies him.

The top 10 rated thread were 50% of the lists don't have Bottas even in the top 10.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
With Bottas it's a bit of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, he played his part and probably would be good for 2020 if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

Honestly I'm starting to come around to the perspective that Ocon isn't that amazing. I don't think he's faster than Bottas and I do get the sense that bringing him in would be a completely lateral move.

Ocon is amazing up to the point of getting beat by Hamilton then he will struggle to get on many peoples top 10 lists.

That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?


We saw those names ahead or around Bottas before he got the Mercedes job as well though so its not like there was some massive shift. You're acting like Bottas was the consensus next man up or something and hugely rated before he got the Merc gig but that's not the case at all.

There were plenty of people who rated Perez and Hulk for example as the best midfielders when Bottas was there so now they've had team mates who've done ok or better against them you can legitimately have 4 drivers in the mix with him at least with Ocon and Sainz. Added to the top 5 and Kimi and now the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly then it stands to reason after a poor year he can fall off the top 10.

Perez has been closer to consensus next man up for the past couple of years I'd argue so getting whooped in qualifying (16-5) and losing the Sunday h2h to Ocon as well (9-5) then Ocon's stock is obviously going to go up. He lost on points but that's hugely influenced by luck in this two tier setting where the only difference between 3rd or 4th and 7th is how many of the top 3 cars failed. Ocon's Monaco is every bit as impressive as Perez's podium in Baku or Gasly's 4th in Bahrain or Alonso's 7th in Singapore.

It just depends on whether the top 3 teams have an issue that day or not that will decide whether you get 6pts for topping the second tier or up to 15pts depending on how many Bulls,Mercs or Ferrari's retired.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?

Where are these lists?

The only drivers in the midfield I think would do a better job than Bottas are Alonso (obviously), Leclerc and Perez. The rest would probably do a similar (Hulkenberg, Sainz) or worse (most of the rest) job. Ocon would probably perform similarly: I think he'd give Hamilton a little bit of a challenge in qualifying, but there's nothing to suggest he'd be a match in the races since he can't consistently beat Perez even when he out-qualifies him.

The top 10 rated thread were 50% of the lists don't have Bottas even in the top 10.


Some feel that Bottas was not top 10 this season, which does not necessarily means they all think he is always not top 10. Many seem to think that he did not have a particular good season (and that he can do better).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly I'm starting to come around to the perspective that Ocon isn't that amazing. I don't think he's faster than Bottas and I do get the sense that bringing him in would be a completely lateral move.

Ocon is amazing up to the point of getting beat by Hamilton then he will struggle to get on many peoples top 10 lists.

That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?


We saw those names ahead or around Bottas before he got the Mercedes job as well though so its not like there was some massive shift. You're acting like Bottas was the consensus next man up or something and hugely rated before he got the Merc gig but that's not the case at all.

There were plenty of people who rated Perez and Hulk for example as the best midfielders when Bottas was there so now they've had team mates who've done ok or better against them you can legitimately have 4 drivers in the mix with him at least with Ocon and Sainz. Added to the top 5 and Kimi and now the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly then it stands to reason after a poor year he can fall off the top 10.

Perez has been closer to consensus next man up for the past couple of years I'd argue so getting whooped in qualifying (16-5) and losing the Sunday h2h to Ocon as well (9-5) then Ocon's stock is obviously going to go up. He lost on points but that's hugely influenced by luck in this two tier setting where the only difference between 3rd or 4th and 7th is how many of the top 3 cars failed. Ocon's Monaco is every bit as impressive as Perez's podium in Baku or Gasly's 4th in Bahrain or Alonso's 7th in Singapore.

It just depends on whether the top 3 teams have an issue that day or not that will decide whether you get 6pts for topping the second tier or up to 15pts depending on how many Bulls,Mercs or Ferrari's retired.

You saw those drivers ahead or as on the same level as Bottas so Bottas was basically ahead of none of the top 10 drivers before he joined Mercedes so you didn't really rate him before hand or maybe we are seeing some revisionary process in action, you think Mercedes would employ a driver so lowly rated in the top 10?

It's clear that quite a few don't have Bottas in the top 10 simply because he got beat by Hamilton and seem not to want to contemplate a reality that Hamilton is a cut above the likes of the Hulk and Perez, Ocon is better than Bottas until he gets beat by Hamilton then maybe he wasn't so good afterall?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?

Where are these lists?

The only drivers in the midfield I think would do a better job than Bottas are Alonso (obviously), Leclerc and Perez. The rest would probably do a similar (Hulkenberg, Sainz) or worse (most of the rest) job. Ocon would probably perform similarly: I think he'd give Hamilton a little bit of a challenge in qualifying, but there's nothing to suggest he'd be a match in the races since he can't consistently beat Perez even when he out-qualifies him.

The top 10 rated thread were 50% of the lists don't have Bottas even in the top 10.


Some feel that Bottas was not top 10 this season, which does not necessarily means they all think he is always not top 10. Many seem to think that he did not have a particular good season (and that he can do better).

At one point Fisichella was rated as the second best driver in F1, beat all his midfield teammates, if only he could get in a top car, then he got teamed against Alonso then he was not so good afterall, you can be all sorts of things until you are tested at the highest level, I guess quite generous though to believe that Bottas just had a poor season rather than him struggling at the higher level?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:19 pm 
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CC78AMG wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Image
source:f1metrics.com

That chart gets confusing when you factor that Raikkonen has beaten Fisichella driving in the same team. Also Fisichella beat Button while they were teammates at Benetton. Its hard to see which is the better driver to challenge Alonso. Too many factors involved.


No way can you include the few races Kimi did against Fisichella in 2009. 5 races at the end of the season at the end of his career in a car he had never driven beforehand.

If you ignore half seasons, then the chart is quite accurate. Grosjean was also a half season and JV just a few races. All of those would have been a lot better off if they had driven the cars before being dropped into it mid season. Kimi was slightly below car in 2014 and probably should be another 0.2-0.3% better off and similar to Massa which he was during 2007-2009. Trulli also went against a near rookie Alonso and he himself was a 1 lap specialist.

Basically, Alonso is 0.4-0.5% better than average drivers. 0.2-0.3% better than very good drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ocon is amazing up to the point of getting beat by Hamilton then he will struggle to get on many peoples top 10 lists.

That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?


We saw those names ahead or around Bottas before he got the Mercedes job as well though so its not like there was some massive shift. You're acting like Bottas was the consensus next man up or something and hugely rated before he got the Merc gig but that's not the case at all.

There were plenty of people who rated Perez and Hulk for example as the best midfielders when Bottas was there so now they've had team mates who've done ok or better against them you can legitimately have 4 drivers in the mix with him at least with Ocon and Sainz. Added to the top 5 and Kimi and now the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly then it stands to reason after a poor year he can fall off the top 10.

Perez has been closer to consensus next man up for the past couple of years I'd argue so getting whooped in qualifying (16-5) and losing the Sunday h2h to Ocon as well (9-5) then Ocon's stock is obviously going to go up. He lost on points but that's hugely influenced by luck in this two tier setting where the only difference between 3rd or 4th and 7th is how many of the top 3 cars failed. Ocon's Monaco is every bit as impressive as Perez's podium in Baku or Gasly's 4th in Bahrain or Alonso's 7th in Singapore.

It just depends on whether the top 3 teams have an issue that day or not that will decide whether you get 6pts for topping the second tier or up to 15pts depending on how many Bulls,Mercs or Ferrari's retired.

You saw those drivers ahead or as on the same level as Bottas so Bottas was basically ahead of none of the top 10 drivers before he joined Mercedes so you didn't really rate him before hand or maybe we are seeing some revisionary process in action, you think Mercedes would employ a driver so lowly rated in the top 10?

It's clear that quite a few don't have Bottas in the top 10 simply because he got beat by Hamilton and seem not to want to contemplate a reality that Hamilton is a cut above the likes of the Hulk and Perez, Ocon is better than Bottas until he gets beat by Hamilton then maybe he wasn't so good afterall?


Before he joined Mercedes I had him in the conversation with Hulk and Perez, not clearly better but not clearly worse either iirc. From mid 2015 onwards he routinely outclassed Massa which was good but no I don't think he outclassed Hulk and Perez to be the main guy in the midfield. But that would still be in the Top 10 I think back in 2016 going into 2017 though as you've got the big 4 then (Ham,Alo,Vet and Ric) and then Max maybe then Hulk,Perez and Bottas so around the bottom 5 end of the top 10 really I suspect but I haven't gone back and checked.

I just think he had a poor season this year, second half especially and with Perez and Hulk both having new team mates in Ocon and Sainz which did well enough against them, one outperformed Perez and the other kept Hulk pretty honest there are now 3/4 drivers you could realistically put in the conversation with him instead of just Hulk and Perez if you see what I mean so missing out on the Top 10 is hardly surprising in a poorer year such as this one when you also consider the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly.

I don't see what Lewis has to do it with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's obviously not true, since very few people seem to think he's amazing now. Nobody thought Bottas was amazing before being Hamilton's teammate either. He was rated as a good midfield driver, and no more.

That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?


We saw those names ahead or around Bottas before he got the Mercedes job as well though so its not like there was some massive shift. You're acting like Bottas was the consensus next man up or something and hugely rated before he got the Merc gig but that's not the case at all.

There were plenty of people who rated Perez and Hulk for example as the best midfielders when Bottas was there so now they've had team mates who've done ok or better against them you can legitimately have 4 drivers in the mix with him at least with Ocon and Sainz. Added to the top 5 and Kimi and now the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly then it stands to reason after a poor year he can fall off the top 10.

Perez has been closer to consensus next man up for the past couple of years I'd argue so getting whooped in qualifying (16-5) and losing the Sunday h2h to Ocon as well (9-5) then Ocon's stock is obviously going to go up. He lost on points but that's hugely influenced by luck in this two tier setting where the only difference between 3rd or 4th and 7th is how many of the top 3 cars failed. Ocon's Monaco is every bit as impressive as Perez's podium in Baku or Gasly's 4th in Bahrain or Alonso's 7th in Singapore.

It just depends on whether the top 3 teams have an issue that day or not that will decide whether you get 6pts for topping the second tier or up to 15pts depending on how many Bulls,Mercs or Ferrari's retired.

You saw those drivers ahead or as on the same level as Bottas so Bottas was basically ahead of none of the top 10 drivers before he joined Mercedes so you didn't really rate him before hand or maybe we are seeing some revisionary process in action, you think Mercedes would employ a driver so lowly rated in the top 10?

It's clear that quite a few don't have Bottas in the top 10 simply because he got beat by Hamilton and seem not to want to contemplate a reality that Hamilton is a cut above the likes of the Hulk and Perez, Ocon is better than Bottas until he gets beat by Hamilton then maybe he wasn't so good afterall?


Before he joined Mercedes I had him in the conversation with Hulk and Perez, not clearly better but not clearly worse either iirc. From mid 2015 onwards he routinely outclassed Massa which was good but no I don't think he outclassed Hulk and Perez to be the main guy in the midfield. But that would still be in the Top 10 I think back in 2016 going into 2017 though as you've got the big 4 then (Ham,Alo,Vet and Ric) and then Max maybe then Hulk,Perez and Bottas so around the bottom 5 end of the top 10 really I suspect but I haven't gone back and checked.

I just think he had a poor season this year, second half especially and with Perez and Hulk both having new team mates in Ocon and Sainz which did well enough against them, one outperformed Perez and the other kept Hulk pretty honest there are now 3/4 drivers you could realistically put in the conversation with him instead of just Hulk and Perez if you see what I mean so missing out on the Top 10 is hardly surprising in a poorer year such as this one when you also consider the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly.

I don't see what Lewis has to do it with it.

Hamilton has everything to do with it because Bottas is being compared directly to Hamilton in comparison to Perez and the Hulk who are being compared to lesser drivers, Bottas is very much drawing the shorter straw.

Getting beat by Hamilton and the level he is getting beat was highly predictable for me anyway, yet Bottas has gone from being a very solid top 10 driver to not being in the top 10 by half the forum albeit a small sample is being used.

If Bottas gets over turned by a top 10 driver then fair enough he drops out of that level, like I think we have witnessed with Sainz getting beat by the Hulk, but getting beat by a tier 1 driver is different again.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

We saw those names ahead or around Bottas before he got the Mercedes job as well though so its not like there was some massive shift. You're acting like Bottas was the consensus next man up or something and hugely rated before he got the Merc gig but that's not the case at all.

There were plenty of people who rated Perez and Hulk for example as the best midfielders when Bottas was there so now they've had team mates who've done ok or better against them you can legitimately have 4 drivers in the mix with him at least with Ocon and Sainz. Added to the top 5 and Kimi and now the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly then it stands to reason after a poor year he can fall off the top 10.

Perez has been closer to consensus next man up for the past couple of years I'd argue so getting whooped in qualifying (16-5) and losing the Sunday h2h to Ocon as well (9-5) then Ocon's stock is obviously going to go up. He lost on points but that's hugely influenced by luck in this two tier setting where the only difference between 3rd or 4th and 7th is how many of the top 3 cars failed. Ocon's Monaco is every bit as impressive as Perez's podium in Baku or Gasly's 4th in Bahrain or Alonso's 7th in Singapore.

It just depends on whether the top 3 teams have an issue that day or not that will decide whether you get 6pts for topping the second tier or up to 15pts depending on how many Bulls,Mercs or Ferrari's retired.

You saw those drivers ahead or as on the same level as Bottas so Bottas was basically ahead of none of the top 10 drivers before he joined Mercedes so you didn't really rate him before hand or maybe we are seeing some revisionary process in action, you think Mercedes would employ a driver so lowly rated in the top 10?

It's clear that quite a few don't have Bottas in the top 10 simply because he got beat by Hamilton and seem not to want to contemplate a reality that Hamilton is a cut above the likes of the Hulk and Perez, Ocon is better than Bottas until he gets beat by Hamilton then maybe he wasn't so good afterall?


Before he joined Mercedes I had him in the conversation with Hulk and Perez, not clearly better but not clearly worse either iirc. From mid 2015 onwards he routinely outclassed Massa which was good but no I don't think he outclassed Hulk and Perez to be the main guy in the midfield. But that would still be in the Top 10 I think back in 2016 going into 2017 though as you've got the big 4 then (Ham,Alo,Vet and Ric) and then Max maybe then Hulk,Perez and Bottas so around the bottom 5 end of the top 10 really I suspect but I haven't gone back and checked.

I just think he had a poor season this year, second half especially and with Perez and Hulk both having new team mates in Ocon and Sainz which did well enough against them, one outperformed Perez and the other kept Hulk pretty honest there are now 3/4 drivers you could realistically put in the conversation with him instead of just Hulk and Perez if you see what I mean so missing out on the Top 10 is hardly surprising in a poorer year such as this one when you also consider the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly.

I don't see what Lewis has to do it with it.

Hamilton has everything to do with it because Bottas is being compared directly to Hamilton in comparison to Perez and the Hulk who are being compared to lesser drivers, Bottas is very much drawing the shorter straw.

Getting beat by Hamilton and the level he is getting beat was highly predictable for me anyway, yet Bottas has gone from being a very solid top 10 driver to not being in the top 10 by half the forum albeit a small sample is being used.

If Bottas gets over turned by a top 10 driver then fair enough he drops out of that level, like I think we have witnessed with Sainz getting beat by the Hulk, but getting beat by a tier 1 driver is different again.


He certainly has it tougher but he has the capacity to impress with his own performances with the car he had yet he seemed to be always struggling in the second half this year outside of Russia. I don't think he fell out of the Top 10 last year, I honestly can't remember, so I think its more about the new guys putting in good work while he struggled that's behind him falling out the top 10 this year rather than about Lewis.

Its a double edged sword, he had a tougher comparison point but he has a car he can get poles,wins and podiums with and make a big impression but he couldn't this year while some youngsters put in some good-to-excellent work so he's going to struggle to maintain that position without impressing himself. Just being close to Lewis and error free would get him favourable reactions like the beginning of both his years at Mercedes but he seems to struggle to maintain it over a year.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:40 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

We saw those names ahead or around Bottas before he got the Mercedes job as well though so its not like there was some massive shift. You're acting like Bottas was the consensus next man up or something and hugely rated before he got the Merc gig but that's not the case at all.

There were plenty of people who rated Perez and Hulk for example as the best midfielders when Bottas was there so now they've had team mates who've done ok or better against them you can legitimately have 4 drivers in the mix with him at least with Ocon and Sainz. Added to the top 5 and Kimi and now the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly then it stands to reason after a poor year he can fall off the top 10.

Perez has been closer to consensus next man up for the past couple of years I'd argue so getting whooped in qualifying (16-5) and losing the Sunday h2h to Ocon as well (9-5) then Ocon's stock is obviously going to go up. He lost on points but that's hugely influenced by luck in this two tier setting where the only difference between 3rd or 4th and 7th is how many of the top 3 cars failed. Ocon's Monaco is every bit as impressive as Perez's podium in Baku or Gasly's 4th in Bahrain or Alonso's 7th in Singapore.

It just depends on whether the top 3 teams have an issue that day or not that will decide whether you get 6pts for topping the second tier or up to 15pts depending on how many Bulls,Mercs or Ferrari's retired.

You saw those drivers ahead or as on the same level as Bottas so Bottas was basically ahead of none of the top 10 drivers before he joined Mercedes so you didn't really rate him before hand or maybe we are seeing some revisionary process in action, you think Mercedes would employ a driver so lowly rated in the top 10?

It's clear that quite a few don't have Bottas in the top 10 simply because he got beat by Hamilton and seem not to want to contemplate a reality that Hamilton is a cut above the likes of the Hulk and Perez, Ocon is better than Bottas until he gets beat by Hamilton then maybe he wasn't so good afterall?


Before he joined Mercedes I had him in the conversation with Hulk and Perez, not clearly better but not clearly worse either iirc. From mid 2015 onwards he routinely outclassed Massa which was good but no I don't think he outclassed Hulk and Perez to be the main guy in the midfield. But that would still be in the Top 10 I think back in 2016 going into 2017 though as you've got the big 4 then (Ham,Alo,Vet and Ric) and then Max maybe then Hulk,Perez and Bottas so around the bottom 5 end of the top 10 really I suspect but I haven't gone back and checked.

I just think he had a poor season this year, second half especially and with Perez and Hulk both having new team mates in Ocon and Sainz which did well enough against them, one outperformed Perez and the other kept Hulk pretty honest there are now 3/4 drivers you could realistically put in the conversation with him instead of just Hulk and Perez if you see what I mean so missing out on the Top 10 is hardly surprising in a poorer year such as this one when you also consider the emergence of Leclerc and Gasly.

I don't see what Lewis has to do it with it.

Hamilton has everything to do with it because Bottas is being compared directly to Hamilton in comparison to Perez and the Hulk who are being compared to lesser drivers, Bottas is very much drawing the shorter straw.

Getting beat by Hamilton and the level he is getting beat was highly predictable for me anyway, yet Bottas has gone from being a very solid top 10 driver to not being in the top 10 by half the forum albeit a small sample is being used.

If Bottas gets over turned by a top 10 driver then fair enough he drops out of that level, like I think we have witnessed with Sainz getting beat by the Hulk, but getting beat by a tier 1 driver is different again.


He certainly has it tougher but he has the capacity to impress with his own performances with the car he had yet he seemed to be always struggling in the second half this year outside of Russia. I don't think he fell out of the Top 10 last year, I honestly can't remember, so I think its more about the new guys putting in good work while he struggled that's behind him falling out the top 10 this year rather than about Lewis.

Its a double edged sword, he had a tougher comparison point but he has a car he can get poles,wins and podiums with and make a big impression but he couldn't this year while some youngsters put in some good-to-excellent work so he's going to struggle to maintain that position without impressing himself. Just being close to Lewis and error free would get him favourable reactions like the beginning of both his years at Mercedes but he seems to struggle to maintain it over a year.

Still there is no actual metric to say these drivers are better than Bottas because unlike Bottas they have not been tested at a higher level, last year Sainz was seen as a top 10 driver until this year he was actually matched against a top 10 driver and now he's dropped out of that ranking.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That being the case why do we see lists of drivers in the midfield that would do so much better than Bottas?

Where are these lists?

The only drivers in the midfield I think would do a better job than Bottas are Alonso (obviously), Leclerc and Perez. The rest would probably do a similar (Hulkenberg, Sainz) or worse (most of the rest) job. Ocon would probably perform similarly: I think he'd give Hamilton a little bit of a challenge in qualifying, but there's nothing to suggest he'd be a match in the races since he can't consistently beat Perez even when he out-qualifies him.

The top 10 rated thread were 50% of the lists don't have Bottas even in the top 10.


Some feel that Bottas was not top 10 this season, which does not necessarily means they all think he is always not top 10. Many seem to think that he did not have a particular good season (and that he can do better).

At one point Fisichella was rated as the second best driver in F1, beat all his midfield teammates, if only he could get in a top car, then he got teamed against Alonso then he was not so good afterall, you can be all sorts of things until you are tested at the highest level, I guess quite generous though to believe that Bottas just had a poor season rather than him struggling at the higher level?


Well, or people think that Bottas had a better season last year, indicating a (comparatively, by his standards) poorer season. Or people think Hamilton was just so outstandingly brilliant this season that it made Bottas - who was performing to the competitiveness of the car - poorer than before. In the second case, it maybe should not affect the ranking - but it still might (we have impression-based rankings and not everyone is making a science out of it).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:42 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Where are these lists?

The only drivers in the midfield I think would do a better job than Bottas are Alonso (obviously), Leclerc and Perez. The rest would probably do a similar (Hulkenberg, Sainz) or worse (most of the rest) job. Ocon would probably perform similarly: I think he'd give Hamilton a little bit of a challenge in qualifying, but there's nothing to suggest he'd be a match in the races since he can't consistently beat Perez even when he out-qualifies him.

The top 10 rated thread were 50% of the lists don't have Bottas even in the top 10.


Some feel that Bottas was not top 10 this season, which does not necessarily means they all think he is always not top 10. Many seem to think that he did not have a particular good season (and that he can do better).

At one point Fisichella was rated as the second best driver in F1, beat all his midfield teammates, if only he could get in a top car, then he got teamed against Alonso then he was not so good afterall, you can be all sorts of things until you are tested at the highest level, I guess quite generous though to believe that Bottas just had a poor season rather than him struggling at the higher level?


Well, or people think that Bottas had a better season last year, indicating a (comparatively, by his standards) poorer season. Or people think Hamilton was just so outstandingly brilliant this season that it made Bottas - who was performing to the competitiveness of the car - poorer than before. In the second case, it maybe should not affect the ranking - but it still might (we have impression-based rankings and not everyone is making a science out of it).

My take is that Hamilton was outstanding whilst the Mercedes was not as good as in 2017, the two combining to make Bottas look that much poorer, in a similar vein the Ferrari was better this year than in 2017 which gave the impression of Kimi performing better, the reality was though that Vettel was just as dominant as normal but this was masked somewhat by the numerous mistakes made by Vettel.

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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:18 pm 
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I'd have to say Gasly if pushed to choose.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Image
source:f1metrics.com

That chart gets confusing when you factor that Raikkonen has beaten Fisichella driving in the same team. Also Fisichella beat Button while they were teammates at Benetton. Its hard to see which is the better driver to challenge Alonso. Too many factors involved.


No way can you include the few races Kimi did against Fisichella in 2009. 5 races at the end of the season at the end of his career in a car he had never driven beforehand.

If you ignore half seasons, then the chart is quite accurate. Grosjean was also a half season and JV just a few races. All of those would have been a lot better off if they had driven the cars before being dropped into it mid season. Kimi was slightly below car in 2014 and probably should be another 0.2-0.3% better off and similar to Massa which he was during 2007-2009. Trulli also went against a near rookie Alonso and he himself was a 1 lap specialist.

Basically, Alonso is 0.4-0.5% better than average drivers. 0.2-0.3% better than very good drivers.


And that Ferrari was notorious for being a difficult beast to drive.


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