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 Post subject: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:26 pm 
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We normally have an end of season thread discussing this so I will kick it off.

1. Lewis Hamilton - Many see this as his best ever season, at best he had a car equal to Vettels but beat him easily, now a 5 time Champion, pole position record holder and second winiest driver.

2. Fernando Alonso - The destruction of Vandoorne shows a driver still performing at a very high level, he would be a title challenger if he had been in either the Mercedes or Ferrari, but wrong career choices left him in uncompetitive machinery added to that a fiesty character not always in sync with team harmony. He's been matched at times but never truly been beaten by a teammate, he leaves F1 but was better than his 2 titles he won.

3. Max Verstappen - Speed wise he's second to none whether that's in qualifying or come raceday, in the wet maybe only second to Hamilton? Given the car a champion in the making but some question marks concerning how his robust driving would serve him in a close title fight?

4. Sebastian Vettel - The fact that a 4 time Champion is only 4th on my list just shows the quality of drivers above him, all time greats, Verstappen I think will get there. Recent seasons puts Vettel a shade below these drivers, a question mark on 2014 then the past 2 seasons losing to Hamilton in close to equal cars.

5. Daniel Ricciardo - 2014 was his peak against Vettel, recent seasons have been more difficult against Verstappen giving some the belief why he chose to leave such a strong team as Red Bull. Next year may give an insight against his new teammate Hulkenberg to his actual level,was 2014 merely an off season for Vettel?

6. Charles Leclerc - Perhaps going out on a limb here as Leclerc hasn't actually achieved anything yet. Beating Ericsson doesn't propel you to stardom but rather the magnitude of the beating which suggests a special talent, the drivers below him in my top 10 have losing seasons against teammates which suggests at the highest level they will come up short.

7. Valtteri Bottas - An example of a driver with a winning record against teammates going up against an elite driver and coming up short and then I guess he's no longer rated anymore by some? I still rate Bottas how I did before he joined Mercedes, what happened was expected.

8. Esteban Ocon - He clearly improved this year in qualifying going from getting beat by Perez to beating Perez reasonably comfortable although still finishing 13 points behind, in the races when they finished he was in front more often than not. Perez is seen as a very strong midfield driver so the comparison bears well for Ocon.

9. Sergio Perez - He normally wins the class B world title, this year he finished second to Hulkenberg, Perez has the uncanny knack of out scoring his teammates despite not being the best in qualifying and not coming out in top in the head to heads. Unfortunately perhaps be's become a bit of a gatekeeper for young drivers, if you can beat him then that's a route to a top team, a route that's not open for Perez himself.

10. Nico Hulkenberg - A bit of a defining year for the Hulk, like Perez he's somewhat of a gatekeeper but unlike Perez he doesn't have the backing to keep him in F1 come what may, Hulk staying in F1 is very much results related. This year he was up against Sainz who was highly rated, losing against Sainz could have seen the beginning of the end for the Hulk's F1 career but he beat Sainz and not only that finished as best of the rest behind the top 3 teams. Next year he will be the hunter rather than the hunted, beating Ricciardo potentially could open doors further up the grid if Renault themselves can't make the step up.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
We normally have an end of season thread discussing this so I will kick it off.

1. Lewis Hamilton - ...... and second winiest driver.


Is that a word or did you forget to put the "h" in there? I'm kidding :]

I wouldn't argue tooo strongly against your top ten, though I would be tempted to replace Bottas with Kimi who was remarkably consistent in the second half of the season. I think Bottas started well enough, but by the end has been left crushed by the scale of his defeat and the team role he ended up playing. Will be interesting to see if he can recover next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We normally have an end of season thread discussing this so I will kick it off.

1. Lewis Hamilton - ...... and second winiest driver.


Is that a word or did you forget to put the "h" in there? I'm kidding :]

I wouldn't argue tooo strongly against your top ten, though I would be tempted to replace Bottas with Kimi who was remarkably consistent in the second half of the season. I think Bottas started well enough, but by the end has been left crushed by the scale of his defeat and the team role he ended up playing. Will be interesting to see if he can recover next year.

I guess ultimately it's how you rate their respective teammates and the cars themselves?

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2013: 5th Place
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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Don't know if I could argue with any of the op's choices. Probably not exactly how my list would have looked like but now when I read it I don't know what I'd change exactly. Maybe I'd make a slightly different list depending on the day.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:38 pm 
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I agree with 9 out of the OPs choices although my order would be slightly difference. I think this is a really hard yeah to put a top 10 together has 5 of the drivers in the top 10 had big periods where they under performed. I would go something like -

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Ocon
6. Vettel
7. Ricciardo
8. Perez
9. Raikkonen
10. Hulkenberg

Special mention to Bottas who I feel guilty for not including. I think he is unfortunate that his bad luck occurred when he was on form. And Sainz who after a poor start out performed Hulkenberg more often than not.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:28 pm 
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1 Hamilton
2 Verstappen
3 Vettel
4 Ricciardo
5 Alonso
6 Bottas
7 Raikkonen
8 LeClerc
9 Ocon
10 Hulkenberg


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Posts: 28701
F1 Metrics have their top 10

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/12 ... on-report/

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Nothing against Gasly, but he does not seem to be rated so high, also not from me. He needs to prove a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Nothing against Gasly, but he does not seem to be rated so high, also not from me. He needs to prove a lot.

It's hard to rate him because he had Hartley as his teammate who was a sportscar driver, all you can really say is promising at the moment.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:03 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Metrics have their top 10

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/12 ... on-report/

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz



Interesting about this is that they have Bottas on 19, Raikkonen on 14 and Ricciardo on 11.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:41 am 
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Posts: 703
Llotyhy wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Metrics have their top 10

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/12 ... on-report/

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz



Interesting about this is that they have Bottas on 19, Raikkonen on 14 and Ricciardo on 11.


It loses any credibility by listing Vandoorne at 9!


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Posts: 28701
Llotyhy wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Metrics have their top 10

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/12 ... on-report/

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz



Interesting about this is that they have Bottas on 19, Raikkonen on 14 and Ricciardo on 11.

Interesting is one way of describing the choices, ridiculous might be another term? :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Laz_T800 wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Metrics have their top 10

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/12 ... on-report/

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz



Interesting about this is that they have Bottas on 19, Raikkonen on 14 and Ricciardo on 11.


It loses any credibility by listing Vandoorne at 9!

Indeed, to arrive at such questionable conclusions you have to question what kind of data they are using, I remember an old term that if you put garbage in then you get garbage out.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1520
pokerman wrote:
We normally have an end of season thread discussing this so I will kick it off.

1. Lewis Hamilton - Many see this as his best ever season, at best he had a car equal to Vettels but beat him easily, now a 5 time Champion, pole position record holder and second winiest driver.

2. Fernando Alonso - The destruction of Vandoorne shows a driver still performing at a very high level, he would be a title challenger if he had been in either the Mercedes or Ferrari, but wrong career choices left him in uncompetitive machinery added to that a fiesty character not always in sync with team harmony. He's been matched at times but never truly been beaten by a teammate, he leaves F1 but was better than his 2 titles he won.

3. Max Verstappen - Speed wise he's second to none whether that's in qualifying or come raceday, in the wet maybe only second to Hamilton? Given the car a champion in the making but some question marks concerning how his robust driving would serve him in a close title fight?

4. Sebastian Vettel - The fact that a 4 time Champion is only 4th on my list just shows the quality of drivers above him, all time greats, Verstappen I think will get there. Recent seasons puts Vettel a shade below these drivers, a question mark on 2014 then the past 2 seasons losing to Hamilton in close to equal cars.

5. Daniel Ricciardo - 2014 was his peak against Vettel, recent seasons have been more difficult against Verstappen giving some the belief why he chose to leave such a strong team as Red Bull. Next year may give an insight against his new teammate Hulkenberg to his actual level,was 2014 merely an off season for Vettel?

6. Charles Leclerc - Perhaps going out on a limb here as Leclerc hasn't actually achieved anything yet. Beating Ericsson doesn't propel you to stardom but rather the magnitude of the beating which suggests a special talent, the drivers below him in my top 10 have losing seasons against teammates which suggests at the highest level they will come up short.

7. Valtteri Bottas - An example of a driver with a winning record against teammates going up against an elite driver and coming up short and then I guess he's no longer rated anymore by some? I still rate Bottas how I did before he joined Mercedes, what happened was expected.

8. Esteban Ocon - He clearly improved this year in qualifying going from getting beat by Perez to beating Perez reasonably comfortable although still finishing 13 points behind, in the races when they finished he was in front more often than not. Perez is seen as a very strong midfield driver so the comparison bears well for Ocon.

9. Sergio Perez - He normally wins the class B world title, this year he finished second to Hulkenberg, Perez has the uncanny knack of out scoring his teammates despite not being the best in qualifying and not coming out in top in the head to heads. Unfortunately perhaps be's become a bit of a gatekeeper for young drivers, if you can beat him then that's a route to a top team, a route that's not open for Perez himself.

10. Nico Hulkenberg - A bit of a defining year for the Hulk, like Perez he's somewhat of a gatekeeper but unlike Perez he doesn't have the backing to keep him in F1 come what may, Hulk staying in F1 is very much results related. This year he was up against Sainz who was highly rated, losing against Sainz could have seen the beginning of the end for the Hulk's F1 career but he beat Sainz and not only that finished as best of the rest behind the top 3 teams. Next year he will be the hunter rather than the hunted, beating Ricciardo potentially could open doors further up the grid if Renault themselves can't make the step up.


I agree with your top 10. Don't think there would be many other people that would have exactly the same drivers in this list. There are a few changes I would make, but no more than 1 position change or swap. I have left no gap between the ones I have swapped to make it more obvious.


1: Hamilton

2: Alonso

3: Vettel
4: Verstappen - The reason why I swap these 2 is because on the whole, despite a few mistakes, Vettel shows his maturity and just doesn't make as any. Verstappen may be faster, but Vettel also often is fast. But Verstappen's mistakes cost him a fair bit more. And if he was in a better team, the points lost would be far more noticeable than this year. There isn't much of a difference on the whole, but Verstappen needs to sort out his overly aggressive driving which is maybe helping him at times, but also is wrecking his own races as well as others.

5: Ricciardo

6: Bottas
7: Leclerc - I do think leclerc has been exceptional for a rookie. But I think things have made him look better than he is. Sauber has improved so much this year. That is one thing making a difference. The main negative thing I thought about Leclerc's season was just that in the 3 wet sessions, (Hungary/Brazil qualifying and the race in Germany) it was obvious that Ericsson handled the car better and pulled off better results. And the reason why I see this as such a negative for Leclerc is that i thought Ericsson was terrible in the wet. As until Germany this year, he had never fully completed a wet race in over 4 years in F1. Crashed out in all but Japan 2014 if i am correct. Ericsson was also a bit closer on race pace at times than I thought he would be. Though the points don't show it. Sauber have also apparently been using Ericsson to help Leclerc in more recent races so that again to me has made some over rate Leclerc. I do think he is very solid and is certainly good enough to go to Ferrari though. But despite Bottas looking well off Hamilton near the end of the season, because Hamilton has been so good, that is making Bottas look worse. I still think that overall Bottas has had a slightly better season than Leclerc if you don't take into account that leclerc is a rookie. Bottas has basically been against a much harder team mate and some other very strong drivers. I don't think Bottas has got any worse than he was last year. Like you say, some do seem to be indicating that he's nowhere now. It is only the last few races that have looked that bad. The car is not really the best on race day any more and Hamilton is just so strong at the moment.

8: Perez
9: Ocon - I swapped these two around because I still think Perez is marginally better. Ocon seems to have got his 1 lap pace to the stage it is slightly better than Perez now. But Perez still manages to pull off better results a good deal of the time. I also think that Ocon has had one or two slightly clumsy moments this year. But then I have to say Perez looked terrible in Singapore. It is tight between them but I think Perez just about takes it. He still has this ability to look after tyres better than most out there.

10: Hulkenberg



The other ones that I've left where you have them, I'll give my view.

Hamilton had a bit of an inconsistent start. the fact that Bottas will have been in the lead of the championship at Baku if not for the puncture despite his messy weekend in Australia sort of shows that Hamilton's season can't have been perfect in those first 4 races. Both Bottas and Hamilton lost a win each in the first 3 races so they both suffered bad luck there. But anyway, from then on, other than Canada and Qualifying in Germany, Hamilton seems to have looked so comfortable with the car. And in the 2nd half of the season, I think it is the strongest he's been in recent years. Given Mercedes just haven't looked like they's had the best car on sundays in the past few races, he's managed to do incredibly well to get wins. Though I have to say Bottas has been helping him. But because of me thinking Mercedes isn't as good as it used to be, that is why I'm more understanding for Bottas for not looking that good recently. I don't think he's been great, but not as bad as a lot here seem to think. Hamilton just seems to have been able to keep going and get really strong results even after winning the title, which doesn't usually seem to be the case with him.

I don't know that much about Alonso's season really. I just think He's been outperforming the car again. But seriously, I hate his attitude at the moment and I'm actually glad he's gone. He seems to have shown little respect or joy of being in F1 that he may as well have allowed another driver to have his seat from the start. Aside from that though, he is very solid and makes hardly any mistakes. Just blue flag and cutting corner things which I think is part of his problem of being fed up and not caring about much any more. Qualifying is something that has started to make me think though. Maybe it is Alonso being truly outstanding in qualifying that is making Vandoorne look so bad. is it 25 or 26 times in a row now or something he's qualified ahead of Vandoorne? Usually once or twice in a season, a weak driver would out qualify a top driver. Could be down to a top drivers mistake. But has Alonso done this? Maybe not. He's still very capable but I just don't think he should be here with the attitude he has. If he wanted to be in another team and they had chosen him, i wouldn't mind as much.

I don't think ricciardo has been much worse than verstappen at all this season. But it is hard to prove. Qualifying, no question who is better. But over the last 2 years, the number of races they have both finished without any problems / grid penalties / reliability problems / treatment towards Verstappen is unbelievably limited. I only say the last thing as it was so clear in the last race that ricciardo was holding back. And it has looked for some time not that red Bull are trying to help max more. Verstappen is slightly quicker overall (sometiems much faster), but makes a lot more mistakes. The difference is not big at all IMO.


Hulkenberg is actually getting worse in my view. He still has a lot of solid results and is good in qualifying. But he's having too many lapses of concentration. Over the past 2 years, he's has some of the most careless looking incidents. Some just involving himself. Driving into the wall 2 years in a row at Baku was rather poor and looked very easy to avoid. He locked up in Spa this year and caused one of the biggest accidents of this year. It wasn't at all intentional but the outcome of that looked as bad as what Grosjean did in 2012. That could have been very serious. He was far too optimistic and left it too late and probably then had a lack of downforce which resulted in a lock up which further affected him slowing down. Then there was the final race. That was poor spacial awareness. This seems harsh, but that is a lot of things that were totally his own fault and cost him and others a race finish. But the reason why I would still have him in the top 10 is that i don't think these poor moments have effected his ability to perform really well at other times. He often does really well in that Renault in qualifying and probably could have done better in some races this year and the last if he had better reliability. Despite the reliability and his mistakes though, he's still finished 7th in the championship. That is a solid result.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2062
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Ricciardo
4. Leclerc
5. Verstappen
6. Vettel
7. Magnussen
8. Perez
9. Ocon
10. Hülkenberg


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We normally have an end of season thread discussing this so I will kick it off.

1. Lewis Hamilton - Many see this as his best ever season, at best he had a car equal to Vettels but beat him easily, now a 5 time Champion, pole position record holder and second winiest driver.

2. Fernando Alonso - The destruction of Vandoorne shows a driver still performing at a very high level, he would be a title challenger if he had been in either the Mercedes or Ferrari, but wrong career choices left him in uncompetitive machinery added to that a fiesty character not always in sync with team harmony. He's been matched at times but never truly been beaten by a teammate, he leaves F1 but was better than his 2 titles he won.

3. Max Verstappen - Speed wise he's second to none whether that's in qualifying or come raceday, in the wet maybe only second to Hamilton? Given the car a champion in the making but some question marks concerning how his robust driving would serve him in a close title fight?

4. Sebastian Vettel - The fact that a 4 time Champion is only 4th on my list just shows the quality of drivers above him, all time greats, Verstappen I think will get there. Recent seasons puts Vettel a shade below these drivers, a question mark on 2014 then the past 2 seasons losing to Hamilton in close to equal cars.

5. Daniel Ricciardo - 2014 was his peak against Vettel, recent seasons have been more difficult against Verstappen giving some the belief why he chose to leave such a strong team as Red Bull. Next year may give an insight against his new teammate Hulkenberg to his actual level,was 2014 merely an off season for Vettel?

6. Charles Leclerc - Perhaps going out on a limb here as Leclerc hasn't actually achieved anything yet. Beating Ericsson doesn't propel you to stardom but rather the magnitude of the beating which suggests a special talent, the drivers below him in my top 10 have losing seasons against teammates which suggests at the highest level they will come up short.

7. Valtteri Bottas - An example of a driver with a winning record against teammates going up against an elite driver and coming up short and then I guess he's no longer rated anymore by some? I still rate Bottas how I did before he joined Mercedes, what happened was expected.

8. Esteban Ocon - He clearly improved this year in qualifying going from getting beat by Perez to beating Perez reasonably comfortable although still finishing 13 points behind, in the races when they finished he was in front more often than not. Perez is seen as a very strong midfield driver so the comparison bears well for Ocon.

9. Sergio Perez - He normally wins the class B world title, this year he finished second to Hulkenberg, Perez has the uncanny knack of out scoring his teammates despite not being the best in qualifying and not coming out in top in the head to heads. Unfortunately perhaps be's become a bit of a gatekeeper for young drivers, if you can beat him then that's a route to a top team, a route that's not open for Perez himself.

10. Nico Hulkenberg - A bit of a defining year for the Hulk, like Perez he's somewhat of a gatekeeper but unlike Perez he doesn't have the backing to keep him in F1 come what may, Hulk staying in F1 is very much results related. This year he was up against Sainz who was highly rated, losing against Sainz could have seen the beginning of the end for the Hulk's F1 career but he beat Sainz and not only that finished as best of the rest behind the top 3 teams. Next year he will be the hunter rather than the hunted, beating Ricciardo potentially could open doors further up the grid if Renault themselves can't make the step up.


I agree with your top 10. Don't think there would be many other people that would have exactly the same drivers in this list. There are a few changes I would make, but no more than 1 position change or swap. I have left no gap between the ones I have swapped to make it more obvious.


1: Hamilton

2: Alonso

3: Vettel
4: Verstappen - The reason why I swap these 2 is because on the whole, despite a few mistakes, Vettel shows his maturity and just doesn't make as any. Verstappen may be faster, but Vettel also often is fast. But Verstappen's mistakes cost him a fair bit more. And if he was in a better team, the points lost would be far more noticeable than this year. There isn't much of a difference on the whole, but Verstappen needs to sort out his overly aggressive driving which is maybe helping him at times, but also is wrecking his own races as well as others.

5: Ricciardo

6: Bottas
7: Leclerc - I do think leclerc has been exceptional for a rookie. But I think things have made him look better than he is. Sauber has improved so much this year. That is one thing making a difference. The main negative thing I thought about Leclerc's season was just that in the 3 wet sessions, (Hungary/Brazil qualifying and the race in Germany) it was obvious that Ericsson handled the car better and pulled off better results. And the reason why I see this as such a negative for Leclerc is that i thought Ericsson was terrible in the wet. As until Germany this year, he had never fully completed a wet race in over 4 years in F1. Crashed out in all but Japan 2014 if i am correct. Ericsson was also a bit closer on race pace at times than I thought he would be. Though the points don't show it. Sauber have also apparently been using Ericsson to help Leclerc in more recent races so that again to me has made some over rate Leclerc. I do think he is very solid and is certainly good enough to go to Ferrari though. But despite Bottas looking well off Hamilton near the end of the season, because Hamilton has been so good, that is making Bottas look worse. I still think that overall Bottas has had a slightly better season than Leclerc if you don't take into account that leclerc is a rookie. Bottas has basically been against a much harder team mate and some other very strong drivers. I don't think Bottas has got any worse than he was last year. Like you say, some do seem to be indicating that he's nowhere now. It is only the last few races that have looked that bad. The car is not really the best on race day any more and Hamilton is just so strong at the moment.

8: Perez
9: Ocon - I swapped these two around because I still think Perez is marginally better. Ocon seems to have got his 1 lap pace to the stage it is slightly better than Perez now. But Perez still manages to pull off better results a good deal of the time. I also think that Ocon has had one or two slightly clumsy moments this year. But then I have to say Perez looked terrible in Singapore. It is tight between them but I think Perez just about takes it. He still has this ability to look after tyres better than most out there.

10: Hulkenberg



The other ones that I've left where you have them, I'll give my view.

Hamilton had a bit of an inconsistent start. the fact that Bottas will have been in the lead of the championship at Baku if not for the puncture despite his messy weekend in Australia sort of shows that Hamilton's season can't have been perfect in those first 4 races. Both Bottas and Hamilton lost a win each in the first 2 races so they both suffered bad luck there. But anyway, from then on, other than Canada and Qualifying in Germany, Hamilton seems to have looked so comfortable with the car. And in the 2nd half of the season, I think it is the strongest he's been in recent years. Given Mercedes just haven't looked like they's had the best car on sundays in the past few races, he's managed to do incredibly well to get wins. Though I have to say Bottas has been helping him. But because of me thinking Mercedes isn't as good as it used to be, that is why I'm more understanding for Bottas for not looking that good recently. I don't think he's been great, but not as bad as a lot here seem to think. Hamilton just seems to have been able to keep going and get really strong results even after winning the title, which doesn't usually seem to be the case with him.

I don't know that much about Alonso's season really. I just think He's been outperforming the car again. But seriously, I hate his attitude at the moment and I'm actually glad he's gone. He seems to have shown little respect or joy of being in F1 that he may as well have allowed another driver to have his seat from the start. Aside from that though, he is very solid and makes hardly any mistakes. Just blue flag and cutting corner things which I think is part of his problem of being fed up and not caring about much any more. Qualifying is something that has started to make me think though. Maybe it is Alonso being truly outstanding in qualifying that is making Vandoorne look so bad. is it 25 or 26 times in a row now or something he's qualified ahead of Vandoorne? Usually once or twice in a season, a weak driver would out qualify a top driver. Could be down to a top drivers mistake. But has Alonso done this? Maybe not. He's still very capable but I just don't think he should be here with the attitude he has. If he wanted to be in another team and they had chosen him, i wouldn't mind as much.

I don't think ricciardo has been much worse than verstappen at all this season. But it is hard to prove. Qualifying, no question who is better. But over the last 2 years, the number of races they have both finished without any problems / grid penalties / reliability problems / treatment towards Verstappen is unbelievably limited. I only say the last thing as it was so clear in the last race that ricciardo was holding back. And it has looked for some time not that red Bull are trying to help max more. Verstappen is slightly quicker overall (sometiems much faster), but makes a lot more mistakes. The difference is not big at all IMO.


Hulkenberg is actually getting worse in my view. He still has a lot of solid results and is good in qualifying. But he's having too many lapses of concentration. Over the past 2 years, he's has some of the most careless looking incidents. Some just involving himself. Driving into the wall 2 years in a row at Baku was rather poop and looked very easy to avoid. He locked up in Spa this year and caused one of the biggest accidents of this year. It wasn't at all intentional but the outcome of that looked as bad as what Grosjean did in 2012. That could have been very serious. He was far too optimistic and left it too late and probably then had a lack of downforce which resulted in a lock up which further affected him slowing down. Then there was the final race. That was poor spacial awareness. This seems harsh, but that is a lot of things that were totally his own fault and cost him and others a race finish. But the reason why I would still have him in the top 10 is that i don't think these poor moments have effected his ability to perform really well at other times. He often does really well in that Renault in qualifying and probably could have done better in some races this year and the last if he had better reliability. Despite the reliability and his mistakes though, he's still finished 7th in the championship. That is a solid result.

Excellent post :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Metrics have their top 10

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2018/12 ... on-report/

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Leclerc
4. Verstappen
5. Pérez
6. Hulkenberg
7. Vettel
8. Ocon
9. Vandoorne
10. Sainz



Interesting about this is that they have Bottas on 19, Raikkonen on 14 and Ricciardo on 11.


It loses any credibility by listing Vandoorne at 9!

Indeed, to arrive at such questionable conclusions you have to question what kind of data they are using, I remember an old term that if you put garbage in then you get garbage out.

:thumbup:
Indeed. An asinine list

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:56 am 
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F1 Team Bosses Rankings (Differences to mine)
Points awarded a per the F1 scoring system, 9 out of 10 bosses voted, Arrivabene didn't vote.

01. Lewis Hamilton 218 (-)
02. Max Verstappen 139 (+1)
03. Sebastian Vettel 105 (+1)
04. Fernando Alonso 103 (-2)
05. Daniel Ricciardo 85 (-)
06. Charles Leclerc 71 (-)
07. Kimi Raikkonen 57 (NE)
08. Valtteri Bottas 38 (-1)
09. Esteban Ocon 27 (-1)
10. Nico Hulkenberg 23 (-)

Reasonably close apart from Kimi were I had Perez instead, what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:57 am 
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Hamilton

Alonso
Verstappen

Ricciardo

Vettel

Perez
Leclerc
Ocon
Hulkenberg

Raikkonen
Sainz
Bottas
Magnussen

Gasly
Vandoorne
Grosjean

Stroll
Ericsson

Sirotkin

Hartley


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Maybe it's overall based on recent seasons rather than just the 2018 season, but my above list is a rating of performance for the 2018 season only.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Perez getting slaughtered in qualifying 16-5 isn't going to impress the team bosses very much I fear and its hard to be too impressed with the Sunday defeat of 9-5 either.

He got more points but that's a lottery in the midfield right now, its all about where and when the top 3 have their failures. There's nothing really extra impressive about getting a podium,4th or 7th, its all the same thing really(best of the rest).

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.


You can judge Alonso pretty easily, he's a known benchmark himself and shut out Vandoorne so we don't really need Stoff to be a known commodity, (as if a drivers performance is some static thing anyway).

Drives like Baku,China and Singapore are pretty easy to judge. I think its purely a yearly judgement as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.


You can judge Alonso pretty easily, he's a known benchmark himself and shut out Vandoorne so we don't really need Stoff to be a known commodity, (as if a drivers performance is some static thing anyway).

Drives like Baku,China and Singapore are pretty easy to judge. I think its purely a yearly judgement as well.

How can it be purely a yearly decision when we are using Alonso's past performances as a benchmark?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.


You can judge Alonso pretty easily, he's a known benchmark himself and shut out Vandoorne so we don't really need Stoff to be a known commodity, (as if a drivers performance is some static thing anyway).

Drives like Baku,China and Singapore are pretty easy to judge. I think its purely a yearly judgement as well.

How can it be purely a yearly decision when we are using Alonso's past performances as a benchmark?


Purely is probably too literal tbf but its no trickier to judge Alonso's performance than anyone else. If we suddenly start assuming someone can do better just because we don't know his team mates performance level then you can do it for everyone else too. They aren't robots with consistent performance track to track as if Bottas's performance against Massa in China 2016 tells you anything about his performance against Lewis in Brazil 2018.

You judge it on what you see from the driver himself, no? (Mistakes, consistency, results etc...)

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.


Well look how highly Leclerc is rated.... Alonso beat his team mate by a bigger margin.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.


You can judge Alonso pretty easily, he's a known benchmark himself and shut out Vandoorne so we don't really need Stoff to be a known commodity, (as if a drivers performance is some static thing anyway).

Drives like Baku,China and Singapore are pretty easy to judge. I think its purely a yearly judgement as well.

How can it be purely a yearly decision when we are using Alonso's past performances as a benchmark?


Purely is probably too literal tbf but its no trickier to judge Alonso's performance than anyone else. If we suddenly start assuming someone can do better just because we don't know his team mates performance level then you can do it for everyone else too. They aren't robots with consistent performance track to track as if Bottas's performance against Massa in China 2016 tells you anything about his performance against Lewis in Brazil 2018.

You judge it on what you see from the driver himself, no? (Mistakes, consistency, results etc...)

How can you judge it by results given that the cars have different performance levels?

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.


Well look how highly Leclerc is rated.... Alonso beat his team mate by a bigger margin.

No the margin was similar and I have Alonso at #2 and Leclerc at #6, so I have Alonso rated higher based on past performances, without that I would not have Alonso as high as #2.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
what is interesting is how Perez is not rated considering he out pointed the Hulk and Ocon 4 seasons out of 5.

I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.

Well look how highly Leclerc is rated.... Alonso beat his team mate by a bigger margin.

In some ways. He beat him more times, but by a smaller differential. Alonso was more consistently ahead by a smaller margin.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't see how any objective list could have both of those two without Perez, tbh.


I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.

Well look how highly Leclerc is rated.... Alonso beat his team mate by a bigger margin.

In some ways. He beat him more times, but by a smaller differential. Alonso was more consistently ahead by a smaller margin.

Bearing in mind it took Leclerc 2 races to get up to speed, I don't think at seasons end we would be judging how a rookie did in his first 2 races, if you ignored those first 2 races then Leclerc's margin was actually bigger. After that Leclerc was just out qualified once by 0.039s apart from that it was never close, the one time Vandoorne was just 0.009s slower than Alonso so by these tiny margins Alonso can be viewed as more consistently ahead?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No the margin was similar and I have Alonso at #2 and Leclerc at #6, so I have Alonso rated higher based on past performances, without that I would not have Alonso as high as #2.


Maybe not quite as high but I rate Leclerc as third anyway. I think a rookie out qualifying his team mate in every round would raise heads. Basically had he been a rookie I still think I'd have rated him 2nd or 3rd based on my rating of Leclerc.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Cannot argue with pokerman's selection at the start. But would add Kimi and drop Nico Huldenberg in that top 10


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No the margin was similar and I have Alonso at #2 and Leclerc at #6, so I have Alonso rated higher based on past performances, without that I would not have Alonso as high as #2.


Maybe not quite as high but I rate Leclerc as third anyway. I think a rookie out qualifying his team mate in every round would raise heads. Basically had he been a rookie I still think I'd have rated him 2nd or 3rd based on my rating of Leclerc.

We are talking about Marcus Ericson though a very beatable driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:40 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No the margin was similar and I have Alonso at #2 and Leclerc at #6, so I have Alonso rated higher based on past performances, without that I would not have Alonso as high as #2.


Maybe not quite as high but I rate Leclerc as third anyway. I think a rookie out qualifying his team mate in every round would raise heads. Basically had he been a rookie I still think I'd have rated him 2nd or 3rd based on my rating of Leclerc.

We are talking about Marcus Ericson though a very beatable driver.


Exactly... And Leclerc is still rated very highly by most based on this season alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No the margin was similar and I have Alonso at #2 and Leclerc at #6, so I have Alonso rated higher based on past performances, without that I would not have Alonso as high as #2.


Maybe not quite as high but I rate Leclerc as third anyway. I think a rookie out qualifying his team mate in every round would raise heads. Basically had he been a rookie I still think I'd have rated him 2nd or 3rd based on my rating of Leclerc.

We are talking about Marcus Ericson though a very beatable driver.


Exactly... And Leclerc is still rated very highly by most based on this season alone.

Yes and Alonso even higher based on past seasons.

However very few have him placed as high as you have him.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:59 pm 
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OP: I think your rankings are pretty sound overall though I disagree with some of your written commentary. I'm not just assuming that Max is the fastest guy out there. He'd have to prove that for me. IMO it's Hamilton until someone proves otherwise. Lewis has been in the same car as some extremely fast drivers over his career and he's been faster than them all (sometimes by a big margin). Max has clearly bested Daniel these last couple of years but that doesn't make me assume he'd have Hamilton beat in the same car. Max does seem to be the one young driver who definitely is on that sort of Hamilton/Alonso level of overall ability (Charles might possibly be that good himself but it's too early to say).

Alonso is on his way out so I won't include him in my rankings:

1. Hamilton-Super fast, great in a fight, great in the wet, doesn't make errors; what more can you ask for?
2. Verstappen-I hesitate to put him this high but in terms of raw speed and talent, he is the only rival for Lewis in the field with Alonso retiring.
3. Daniel Ricciardo-Definitely bested by Max this year but the margin is not as big as the points table indicates. He's had awful reliability this year and it has robbed him of any chance to compete. Based on what he did in 2014 and how he managed against Max in races where his car was healthy, I still rate Dan very highly.
4. Vettel-This is mostly based on historical evidence. Vettel's 2018 season was not impressive at all by his lofty standards but he's got enough of a CV to still be ranked above all but the top three for me.
5. Leclerc-I am perhaps getting ahead of myself in that Charles maybe hasn't definitively earned a spot this high. That said, I am a believer in his talent and I think that he'll be in everyone's top 5 by the end of 2019.
6. Perez/Bottas/Hulkenberg/Raikkonen-This is the point where there is a pretty steep drop off from the top guys but I think that these three are the most proven as the best of the rest. Guys like Grosjean and Ocon have speed but lack consistency on Sundays and get into too many collisions. Guys like Sainz and Magnussen seem to do well on Sundays but are often lackluster on Saturdays.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:

I took the poll to be about this season, not how you rate them overall?

I think each season is just an extra layer otherwise how can you rate Alonso if you ignore everything he's done in the past, you wouldn't be able to rate Alonso as a top driver in a back of the grid team beating a driver with basically no F1 experience having only had Alonso as a teammate.

Well look how highly Leclerc is rated.... Alonso beat his team mate by a bigger margin.

In some ways. He beat him more times, but by a smaller differential. Alonso was more consistently ahead by a smaller margin.

Bearing in mind it took Leclerc 2 races to get up to speed, I don't think at seasons end we would be judging how a rookie did in his first 2 races, if you ignored those first 2 races then Leclerc's margin was actually bigger. After that Leclerc was just out qualified once by 0.039s apart from that it was never close, the one time Vandoorne was just 0.009s slower than Alonso so by these tiny margins Alonso can be viewed as more consistently ahead?

Where was that time Leclerc was beaten by Ericsson by 0.039? After the first two races, Ericsson out qualified him twice. One being Germany by 0.176. The other being Brazil where on both Q3 runs Ericsson beat him and was also one of only 2 drivers to improve on their 2nd run. In the end it was 0.196. Obviously he's only outqualified 4 times, and not by as bigger gap as when Leclerc beat him.

But the statistics on racefans show that Ericsson's average gap was pretty huge. 0.605 seconds. Vandoorne's was a fair bit smaller at 0.383 behind Alonso. But the fact is, he never looked convincingly better in qualifying. At least Ericsson managed that a couple of times after the first 2 races. And this didn't look like it was due to Leclercs mistakes. It just shows that once or twice, Ericsson can do a strong lap.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:25 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Where was that time Leclerc was beaten by Ericsson by 0.039? After the first two races, Ericsson out qualified him twice. One being Germany by 0.176. The other being Brazil where on both Q3 runs Ericsson beat him and was also one of only 2 drivers to improve on their 2nd run. In the end it was 0.196. Obviously he's only outqualified 4 times, and not by as bigger gap as when Leclerc beat him.

But the statistics on racefans show that Ericsson's average gap was pretty huge. 0.605 seconds. Vandoorne's was a fair bit smaller at 0.383 behind Alonso. But the fact is, he never looked convincingly better in qualifying. At least Ericsson managed that a couple of times after the first 2 races. And this didn't look like it was due to Leclercs mistakes. It just shows that once or twice, Ericsson can do a strong lap.


Or Leclerc is not yet as consistently rapid as Alonso...


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