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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Which is why I rated him #2. He did a good job IMO. You rated Alonso #2, incidentally above the guy that Hamilton beat who according to the current position of your goalposts is the standard now, but judging from your comments on Alonso now that must mean you don't rate any of the drivers that Hamilton beat at all...

Because I rated Alonso as better than Vettel before the season started and what changed to alter that, we can't say that Alonso drove poorly and Vettel certainly didn't raise his bar, you always rate Alonso as being better than Hamilton and on that premise fair enough, but to categorically state that Alonso drove better than any other driver in 2018 seems made up really, were are all the plaudits for Alonso during the season itself?

Once again, you voted Alonso better than every driver bar Hamilton in 2018. I'm simply going one small step higher. Are there different rules for 1st and 2nd place that I'm not aware of?

Once again I put Alonso at #2 because it's Alonso and not because of his 2018 results, I had him at #2 the season before and had no reason to drop his rating, the drivers that were already below him didn't do enough for me to consider dropping his rating, this is my way of taking into account of car performance in order to not unfairly drop a driver's rating because on the 2018 performance alone I wouldn't be able to justify Alonso as being the #2 driver and certainly not the #1 driver.

Again, is this a different standard to the one you applied for the #1 spot? If so, why the lack of consistency? And if not, then what's even the issue?

You just don't seem to get what I'm saying regarding historical performance which I used and you said you didn't use.

If Gasly had a season like Alonso you wouldn't be making him the #1 driver, in fact neither would you with Hamilton given the lack of votes in the DoTD polls.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Because those tend to be dominated by whoever won the race, regardless of how challenged he was while doing it, most likely. You know we disagree on that particular accolade

I'm referring to your own choices.

and how many times did I vote Hamilton DotD, since you're keeping score?

I checked for several things, in regards to Hamilton you gave him a share of Monza along with Kimi and Bottas, nominally you tend to vote for 1 driver, this time Bottas got equal billing as Hamilton because he held Kimi up for a few laps which helped Hamilton to win the race.

so on that you base the whole season? 8O

Not sure what you mean?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Vandoorne was that good he wouldn't have been sacked and at the time of Sainz's signing McLaren could already see he was getting beat by the Hulk.
There's more to driver signings than pure performance, as you well know. Kimi was let go by Ferrari and yet Sauber took him on. How to explain that particular conundrum?

Because Sauber are unable to sign the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo so go for what they consider to be next best which wasn't Vandoorne, whilst Ferrari can just about sign who they want and Kimi was just short of the mark.

And yet when Alonso was available the top teams ignored him, too. Does this mean that he's rubbish, too?

I'm hoping you're just trying to throw as much mud as you can to see what will stick as you can't seriously believe the black and white arguments you're spouting? No-one who has spent any length of time following F1 believes that hiring choices are always to go for the best available regardless of other considerations. And with the amount of knowledge I know you have I find it hard to accept you believe that yourself

In part because of Alonso's own politics however Alonso was still employable within F1 unlike Vandoorne.
Because he was not employed does not make him unemployable. Just means no seats were available for him. Could be a combination of performance, budget, other driver availability, sponsors etc. You can't draw conclusions in the way you do and present them as proof of anything


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:16 pm 
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Posts: 6968
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If you take those numbers further then Vandoorne is also quicker than Vettel, I'm quite happy with my system rather than others that seem to produce junk, in my opinion of course.

Only if you're very creative, as the article doesn't even mention Vettel as far as I can tell.

Unless you're claiming they made the numbers up, I don't see how you could call them junk. You can't just take your own version as the only correct one and expect everybody else to accept that, be serious.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the fact that you appear to have such wildly different figures only illustrates the dangers of putting too much store in numbers like this. But you also can't just state with any authority that "the numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi," because clearly there's more than one way of interpreting those numbers and it's highly debatable at the very least

You have a set of numbers that say that Vandoorne is faster than Kimi and Massa, Vettel is 2 tenths faster than Kimi so maybe that helps you, and with these numbers Vandoorne should be a sought after driver.

Then you have my numbers that say Vandoorne is slower than Kimi and Massa and maybe F1 is not for him and now he's driving in FE.

there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable

A team like McLaren will employ who they consider to be the fastest drivers, despite their travails they are still not a pay driver team.

Yet they employed Vandoorne that you are hell-bent to prove that he was unproven and slow? Something does not compute here


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm referring to your own choices.

and how many times did I vote Hamilton DotD, since you're keeping score?

I checked for several things, in regards to Hamilton you gave him a share of Monza along with Kimi and Bottas, nominally you tend to vote for 1 driver, this time Bottas got equal billing as Hamilton because he held Kimi up for a few laps which helped Hamilton to win the race.

so on that you base the whole season? 8O

Not sure what you mean?

you presented the above as proof that I voted for Hamilton at least once, but it was hardly unequivocal and I'm in the dark what your example in any way proves?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Only if you're very creative, as the article doesn't even mention Vettel as far as I can tell.

Unless you're claiming they made the numbers up, I don't see how you could call them junk. You can't just take your own version as the only correct one and expect everybody else to accept that, be serious.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the fact that you appear to have such wildly different figures only illustrates the dangers of putting too much store in numbers like this. But you also can't just state with any authority that "the numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi," because clearly there's more than one way of interpreting those numbers and it's highly debatable at the very least

You have a set of numbers that say that Vandoorne is faster than Kimi and Massa, Vettel is 2 tenths faster than Kimi so maybe that helps you, and with these numbers Vandoorne should be a sought after driver.

Then you have my numbers that say Vandoorne is slower than Kimi and Massa and maybe F1 is not for him and now he's driving in FE.

there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable

A team like McLaren will employ who they consider to be the fastest drivers, despite their travails they are still not a pay driver team.

Yet they employed Vandoorne that you are hell-bent to prove that he was unproven and slow? Something does not compute here

They gave Vandoorne a chance based on his junior results.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Because Sauber are unable to sign the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo so go for what they consider to be next best which wasn't Vandoorne, whilst Ferrari can just about sign who they want and Kimi was just short of the mark.

And yet when Alonso was available the top teams ignored him, too. Does this mean that he's rubbish, too?

I'm hoping you're just trying to throw as much mud as you can to see what will stick as you can't seriously believe the black and white arguments you're spouting? No-one who has spent any length of time following F1 believes that hiring choices are always to go for the best available regardless of other considerations. And with the amount of knowledge I know you have I find it hard to accept you believe that yourself

In part because of Alonso's own politics however Alonso was still employable within F1 unlike Vandoorne.
Because he was not employed does not make him unemployable. Just means no seats were available for him. Could be a combination of performance, budget, other driver availability, sponsors etc. You can't draw conclusions in the way you do and present them as proof of anything

McLaren invested a lot of money in Vandoorne, why would they sack him for inferior drivers, that really doesn't make a lot of sense?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
and how many times did I vote Hamilton DotD, since you're keeping score?

I checked for several things, in regards to Hamilton you gave him a share of Monza along with Kimi and Bottas, nominally you tend to vote for 1 driver, this time Bottas got equal billing as Hamilton because he held Kimi up for a few laps which helped Hamilton to win the race.

so on that you base the whole season? 8O

Not sure what you mean?

you presented the above as proof that I voted for Hamilton at least once, but it was hardly unequivocal and I'm in the dark what your example in any way proves?

You asked me how many times you voted for Hamilton.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Because I rated Alonso as better than Vettel before the season started and what changed to alter that, we can't say that Alonso drove poorly and Vettel certainly didn't raise his bar, you always rate Alonso as being better than Hamilton and on that premise fair enough, but to categorically state that Alonso drove better than any other driver in 2018 seems made up really, were are all the plaudits for Alonso during the season itself?

Once again, you voted Alonso better than every driver bar Hamilton in 2018. I'm simply going one small step higher. Are there different rules for 1st and 2nd place that I'm not aware of?

Once again I put Alonso at #2 because it's Alonso and not because of his 2018 results, I had him at #2 the season before and had no reason to drop his rating, the drivers that were already below him didn't do enough for me to consider dropping his rating, this is my way of taking into account of car performance in order to not unfairly drop a driver's rating because on the 2018 performance alone I wouldn't be able to justify Alonso as being the #2 driver and certainly not the #1 driver.

Again, is this a different standard to the one you applied for the #1 spot? If so, why the lack of consistency? And if not, then what's even the issue?

You just don't seem to get what I'm saying regarding historical performance which I used and you said you didn't use.

If Gasly had a season like Alonso you wouldn't be making him the #1 driver, in fact neither would you with Hamilton given the lack of votes in the DoTD polls.

I didn't say anything of the sort, either for or against. Will you please stop creating strawman positions out of thin air? It's very frustrating.

You always take into account previous history for every driver, consciously or not. No-one would be saying the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes, for example, if it had been virtually any driver other than Hamilton getting those results. Past experience colours the way we view almost everything. And in the case of Alonso the way he demolished Vandoorne is consistent with his previous history. There is no reason to believe that he suddenly became a worse driver overnight, or that he was just coasting when he was making it look as though he was driving a different car to his team mate. So on balance his results looked very impressive.

It's utterly bizarre how fixated you are by this, I must say


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I checked for several things, in regards to Hamilton you gave him a share of Monza along with Kimi and Bottas, nominally you tend to vote for 1 driver, this time Bottas got equal billing as Hamilton because he held Kimi up for a few laps which helped Hamilton to win the race.

so on that you base the whole season? 8O

Not sure what you mean?

you presented the above as proof that I voted for Hamilton at least once, but it was hardly unequivocal and I'm in the dark what your example in any way proves?

You asked me how many times you voted for Hamilton.

In response to your question as to how many votes Alonso got. And one vote proves what exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
And yet when Alonso was available the top teams ignored him, too. Does this mean that he's rubbish, too?

I'm hoping you're just trying to throw as much mud as you can to see what will stick as you can't seriously believe the black and white arguments you're spouting? No-one who has spent any length of time following F1 believes that hiring choices are always to go for the best available regardless of other considerations. And with the amount of knowledge I know you have I find it hard to accept you believe that yourself

In part because of Alonso's own politics however Alonso was still employable within F1 unlike Vandoorne.
Because he was not employed does not make him unemployable. Just means no seats were available for him. Could be a combination of performance, budget, other driver availability, sponsors etc. You can't draw conclusions in the way you do and present them as proof of anything

McLaren invested a lot of money in Vandoorne, why would they sack him for inferior drivers, that really doesn't make a lot of sense?
A minute ago you were talking about Vandoorne being unemployable, now it's about the amount of money McLaren invested in him?

McLaren took Sainz, who's fairly highly rated, which makes sense when their current top driver is leaving. And we don't really know what the key differentiator for the decision between Norris and Vandoorne was, do we? But we could always make it up and jump to conclusions of course


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You have a set of numbers that say that Vandoorne is faster than Kimi and Massa, Vettel is 2 tenths faster than Kimi so maybe that helps you, and with these numbers Vandoorne should be a sought after driver.

Then you have my numbers that say Vandoorne is slower than Kimi and Massa and maybe F1 is not for him and now he's driving in FE.

there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable

A team like McLaren will employ who they consider to be the fastest drivers, despite their travails they are still not a pay driver team.

Yet they employed Vandoorne that you are hell-bent to prove that he was unproven and slow? Something does not compute here

They gave Vandoorne a chance based on his junior results.
As they presumably did with Norris, except Norris didn't win GP2...


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Once again, you voted Alonso better than every driver bar Hamilton in 2018. I'm simply going one small step higher. Are there different rules for 1st and 2nd place that I'm not aware of?

Once again I put Alonso at #2 because it's Alonso and not because of his 2018 results, I had him at #2 the season before and had no reason to drop his rating, the drivers that were already below him didn't do enough for me to consider dropping his rating, this is my way of taking into account of car performance in order to not unfairly drop a driver's rating because on the 2018 performance alone I wouldn't be able to justify Alonso as being the #2 driver and certainly not the #1 driver.

Again, is this a different standard to the one you applied for the #1 spot? If so, why the lack of consistency? And if not, then what's even the issue?

You just don't seem to get what I'm saying regarding historical performance which I used and you said you didn't use.

If Gasly had a season like Alonso you wouldn't be making him the #1 driver, in fact neither would you with Hamilton given the lack of votes in the DoTD polls.

I didn't say anything of the sort, either for or against. Will you please stop creating strawman positions out of thin air? It's very frustrating.

You always take into account previous history for every driver, consciously or not. No-one would be saying the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes, for example, if it had been virtually any driver other than Hamilton getting those results. Past experience colours the way we view almost everything. And in the case of Alonso the way he demolished Vandoorne is consistent with his previous history. There is no reason to believe that he suddenly became a worse driver overnight, or that he was just coasting when he was making it look as though he was driving a different car to his team mate. So on balance his results looked very impressive.

It's utterly bizarre how fixated you are by this, I must say

So now you are saying that Alonso's past history did in fact colour your vote, that I can find reason with but not the original premise that you voted purely on 2018 driver performance in a rubbish car were he wasn't competing against the very best drivers which also isn't backed up by your lack of votes for him in the DoTD polls.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Not sure what you mean?

you presented the above as proof that I voted for Hamilton at least once, but it was hardly unequivocal and I'm in the dark what your example in any way proves?

You asked me how many times you voted for Hamilton.

In response to your question as to how many votes Alonso got. And one vote proves what exactly?

It shows that you weren't exactly bowled over by Alonso's performances during the season, apart from one race you always had another driver being better.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6968
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable

A team like McLaren will employ who they consider to be the fastest drivers, despite their travails they are still not a pay driver team.

Yet they employed Vandoorne that you are hell-bent to prove that he was unproven and slow? Something does not compute here

They gave Vandoorne a chance based on his junior results.
As they presumably did with Norris, except Norris didn't win GP2...

Yeah, I was wondering the same. Also, Mercedes employed Vandoorne for testing, so god knows if he is good, bad, mediocre or amazeballs...


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
In part because of Alonso's own politics however Alonso was still employable within F1 unlike Vandoorne.
Because he was not employed does not make him unemployable. Just means no seats were available for him. Could be a combination of performance, budget, other driver availability, sponsors etc. You can't draw conclusions in the way you do and present them as proof of anything

McLaren invested a lot of money in Vandoorne, why would they sack him for inferior drivers, that really doesn't make a lot of sense?
A minute ago you were talking about Vandoorne being unemployable, now it's about the amount of money McLaren invested in him?

McLaren took Sainz, who's fairly highly rated, which makes sense when their current top driver is leaving. And we don't really know what the key differentiator for the decision between Norris and Vandoorne was, do we? But we could always make it up and jump to conclusions of course

Two seasons is time for McLaren to evaluate Vandoorne, Sainz was getting beat by the Hulk and is not even rated as a top 10 driver.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29659
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable

A team like McLaren will employ who they consider to be the fastest drivers, despite their travails they are still not a pay driver team.

Yet they employed Vandoorne that you are hell-bent to prove that he was unproven and slow? Something does not compute here

They gave Vandoorne a chance based on his junior results.
As they presumably did with Norris, except Norris didn't win GP2...

...and if Norris doesn't deliver he will get sacked as well.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:10 pm 
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You kept track of EVERY DoTD vote Zoue made in 2018? How many times that he voted for Lewis wouldn't surprise me, but how often be voted for the others too,such as Alonso??? Do you have my voting history as well?

Your obsession on this really is bizarre.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:20 pm 
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Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
you presented the above as proof that I voted for Hamilton at least once, but it was hardly unequivocal and I'm in the dark what your example in any way proves?

You asked me how many times you voted for Hamilton.

In response to your question as to how many votes Alonso got. And one vote proves what exactly?

It shows that you weren't exactly bowled over by Alonso's performances during the season, apart from one race you always had another driver being better.
I don't think a quote regarding Hamilton does show that at all, but you have your own way of interpreting things I guess. But using your interpretation, that also means I wasn't exactly bowled over by Hamilton, either, so why the indignation now?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:23 pm 
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Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
McLaren invested a lot of money in Vandoorne, why would they sack him for inferior drivers, that really doesn't make a lot of sense?
A minute ago you were talking about Vandoorne being unemployable, now it's about the amount of money McLaren invested in him?

McLaren took Sainz, who's fairly highly rated, which makes sense when their current top driver is leaving. And we don't really know what the key differentiator for the decision between Norris and Vandoorne was, do we? But we could always make it up and jump to conclusions of course

Two seasons is time for McLaren to evaluate Vandoorne, Sainz was getting beat by the Hulk and is not even rated as a top 10 driver.
I think that's debatable, depending on how you define top-rated. He is classed by many as better than average I'd say


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:26 pm 
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Posts: 24297
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Again, is this a different standard to the one you applied for the #1 spot? If so, why the lack of consistency? And if not, then what's even the issue?

You just don't seem to get what I'm saying regarding historical performance which I used and you said you didn't use.

If Gasly had a season like Alonso you wouldn't be making him the #1 driver, in fact neither would you with Hamilton given the lack of votes in the DoTD polls.

I didn't say anything of the sort, either for or against. Will you please stop creating strawman positions out of thin air? It's very frustrating.

You always take into account previous history for every driver, consciously or not. No-one would be saying the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes, for example, if it had been virtually any driver other than Hamilton getting those results. Past experience colours the way we view almost everything. And in the case of Alonso the way he demolished Vandoorne is consistent with his previous history. There is no reason to believe that he suddenly became a worse driver overnight, or that he was just coasting when he was making it look as though he was driving a different car to his team mate. So on balance his results looked very impressive.

It's utterly bizarre how fixated you are by this, I must say

So now you are saying that Alonso's past history did in fact colour your vote, that I can find reason with but not the original premise that you voted purely on 2018 driver performance in a rubbish car were he wasn't competing against the very best drivers which also isn't backed up by your lack of votes for him in the DoTD polls.

er, what do you mean now? You write as though I've changed my position or something but let me point you back to near the very beginning of this discussion when I said:

Zoue wrote:
But that's not happened, though, so it's really a strawman argument

Of course a driver's previous ability is taken into account. If Gasly had won this year's title in the Merc then everyone would doubtless be saying that the Mercedes was the best car. People judge based at least in part on the known capabilities of a driver. We know that Alonso is one of the best out there and therefore we don't have to look for other excuses as to his performance. It's consistent with the way he demolished e.g. Kimi when they were team mates and we can be reasonably confident that he hasn't suddenly lost his touch, given the evidence supports the contrary.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:38 pm 
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Blake wrote:
You kept track of EVERY DoTD vote Zoue made in 2018? How many times that he voted for Lewis wouldn't surprise me, but how often be voted for the others too,such as Alonso??? Do you have my voting history as well?

Your obsession on this really is bizarre.

only he didn't, because in the very first race I voted for Alonso...


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Because he was not employed does not make him unemployable. Just means no seats were available for him. Could be a combination of performance, budget, other driver availability, sponsors etc. You can't draw conclusions in the way you do and present them as proof of anything

McLaren invested a lot of money in Vandoorne, why would they sack him for inferior drivers, that really doesn't make a lot of sense?
A minute ago you were talking about Vandoorne being unemployable, now it's about the amount of money McLaren invested in him?

McLaren took Sainz, who's fairly highly rated, which makes sense when their current top driver is leaving. And we don't really know what the key differentiator for the decision between Norris and Vandoorne was, do we? But we could always make it up and jump to conclusions of course

Two seasons is time for McLaren to evaluate Vandoorne, Sainz was getting beat by the Hulk and is not even rated as a top 10 driver.


Beat how? It's not like Hulk smashed him?
Most of Hulk big points came when the Renault were more competitive.
At the end of the season I thought that Sainz was actually the better driver but the car was just too slow for him to score big.

If anything I have been very much impressed by Sainz starts as he seemed to always gain places.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:28 pm 
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What I don't understand is how can it be fine to vote Alonso in 2nd but 1st is totally unreasonable? Surely if you think he's second then someone else thinking he's first is barely disagreeing?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:43 pm 
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I'm just going to duck back in to say that I don't think Driver of the Day votes make a valid criteria for the season's top ten. Driver of the Day is based primarily on who impressed or outperformed expectations, not on who was necessarily the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

... and that has exactly what to do with my post? I didn't mention either Massa or Kimi, and one of them isn't even driving anymore. Do the numbers say he's slower than Ericsson and Hartley?

Alonso still beat a driver not rated by F1 standards and on that premise alone we can determine he was the best driver in 2018 it seems?

Are you still on about this? You rated him second best driver in 2018 so why is it you can't see how crazy it sounds for you to go on and on about someone rating him one step higher than yourself? I would kind of understand your stance if you didn't rate Alonso at all (outside of the top 10 or something) but you have him at no. 2 yourself.

Still not reading what I'm saying in my posts, my high rating of Alonso is based on historical performance, there is no way I could venture him as the second best driver in F1 based solely on his 2018 season.

Similarly if you look at Leclerc I had him at #6 and even then I was thinking have I placed him too high because his teammate was only Ericsson, without historical performance it was a bit of a punt.

Be that as it may, you've been at it for 10 pages already, do you think you'll get Zoue to move Alonso down a spot so that his list looks like your list which apparently is the standard?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:30 am 
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Out of all the discussions I've seen on this forum, this might be the silliest. :p


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:52 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
... and that has exactly what to do with my post? I didn't mention either Massa or Kimi, and one of them isn't even driving anymore. Do the numbers say he's slower than Ericsson and Hartley?

Alonso still beat a driver not rated by F1 standards and on that premise alone we can determine he was the best driver in 2018 it seems?

Are you still on about this? You rated him second best driver in 2018 so why is it you can't see how crazy it sounds for you to go on and on about someone rating him one step higher than yourself? I would kind of understand your stance if you didn't rate Alonso at all (outside of the top 10 or something) but you have him at no. 2 yourself.

Still not reading what I'm saying in my posts, my high rating of Alonso is based on historical performance, there is no way I could venture him as the second best driver in F1 based solely on his 2018 season.

Similarly if you look at Leclerc I had him at #6 and even then I was thinking have I placed him too high because his teammate was only Ericsson, without historical performance it was a bit of a punt.

Be that as it may, you've been at it for 10 pages already, do you think you'll get Zoue to move Alonso down a spot so that his list looks like your list which apparently is the standard?

Nah, a stalemate more like it! I don't get it either, it reeks of double standards


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:59 pm 
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A stalemate is a good term to describe this thread - I think it'll be less frustrating for everybody if we can just leave it there.


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