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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly guys (and I don't expect you to take me up on this but it's worth a try), can we just drop it now? I think everyone has gone through their arguments multiple times at this point. Most of the people arguing for Alonso actually voted Hamilton as driver of the year. They are only saying that they think an Alonso vote is justifiable. Regardless, at this point it is clear that no one is changing anyone else's mind and the topic breeds nothing but bitter quarreling. Can we simply move on?

I would second this. I don't see any real discussion occurring at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think a driver can walk into F1, finish 11th in the WDC and get voted as being the best driver, what you are asking of me to quantify is merely diversionary.


It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:43 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
No, that's the equivalent of saying that Toro Rosso are the best team in F1.

Trying to draw a comparison between a drivers performance in F1 and a teams performance in football based on their placing in the championship is obviously flawed and with all you know about how F1 works I struggle very much to believe you don't see that yourself.

No it isn't because STR compete in the same class/league as the top teams whereas Leeds United don't.

If you've got an actual point to make, make it. I can't be bothered to run through the usual hoops of analysing everything thats said to the smallest degree when it's not relevant, this being the perfect example.

Yeah I guess its more accurate to say that it would be like saying a GP2 team is a better motorsport team than Mercedes then. That was really not the important bit though, the main point still stands: your comparison is more accurate when comparing team to team. Not team to driver. Even still I have no idea what you were even trying to say in the first place.

My point being that we wouldn't be judging Leeds United as the best team in England because they are competing against lesser opposition, likewise as been pointed out Alonso was competing in Formula 1B against lesser opposition, not against the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen or Ricciardo.

If Messi was playing for Leeds he would still be one of the best players in the world, and it would still be possible for him to be the best player of a given season. In order for your comparison to just about work then Leeds = McLaren, even then it's a pretty poor analogy.

Based on past reputation I presume, without that past reputation would he be voted the best player in the world whilst playing for a championship team?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's like asking someone how long is a piece of string, the criteria is certainly above what Alonso achieved as also witnessed by what 95+% of people thought.

that's a cop out. You're adamant that Alonso can't be a contender and cited his finishing position and lack of podiums as reasons. So there has to be a minimum standard for you or else your reasons for dismissing him are meaningless

Drivers don't get chosen as the best driver based on Alonso's 2018 performance, that has never happened before and hasn't happened this year, he scored points in 9 out of 21 races, as a cut off point the highest placed driver in the past finished 4th in the WDC.

You keep referring to these statistics that are supposed to disqualify him from the competiton yet are unable to provide Zoue with exact details after countless requests.

So please do us all a favour and once and for all, fill out the following:

In order to compete for no. 1 rated driver, at least the following is required of him:
1) Podiums:
2) Points scoring races:
3) Position in the WDC:
4) ???:

You think a driver can walk into F1, finish 11th in the WDC and get voted as being the best driver, what you are asking of me to quantify is merely diversionary.

Just answer and let the thread die off. Next year you can include the voting rules in the OP and things will go much smoother.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think a driver can walk into F1, finish 11th in the WDC and get voted as being the best driver, what you are asking of me to quantify is merely diversionary.


It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I didn't understand that either. :?




It's pretty straightforward


:thumbup:

I think that Hamilton is the best driver on the grid and was driver of the season 2018. But the "no precedent" reasoning against voting for Alonso really makes no sense.

Yeah, I don't think he gets it

I don't think that people get why a driver without any previous reputation in F1 gets voted the best drive after only finishing 11th in the WDC, I see people blowing a lot of hot air.


This hasn't happened, it is an imaginary scenario that you keep banging on and frankly has no weight in this conversation. There is no new driver that walked in and got 11th and DotY, so please drop this and move on. The other thing is your "precedent" idea, your statements come across as thinking that nothing can happen in F1 without a precedent, which is so wrong that I frankly can't even start arguing about it if you can't see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:53 am 
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Posts: 6765
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly guys (and I don't expect you to take me up on this but it's worth a try), can we just drop it now? I think everyone has gone through their arguments multiple times at this point. Most of the people arguing for Alonso actually voted Hamilton as driver of the year. They are only saying that they think an Alonso vote is justifiable. Regardless, at this point it is clear that no one is changing anyone else's mind and the topic breeds nothing but bitter quarreling. Can we simply move on?

I would second this. I don't see any real discussion occurring at this point.


Well, it's the dead season, what do you expect? There's nothing much happening, so people discuss whatever. If you don't agree then you can simply not post here guys.

I agree with the general sentiment though, we've gone through the circles and we are not getting anywhere anytime soon.

With this, let me just wish everyone a happy new year, since it is my first posts in the forum for 2019. May everyone be healthy and enjoy a great series this year!


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm 
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Posts: 7446
Location: Belgium
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly guys (and I don't expect you to take me up on this but it's worth a try), can we just drop it now? I think everyone has gone through their arguments multiple times at this point. Most of the people arguing for Alonso actually voted Hamilton as driver of the year. They are only saying that they think an Alonso vote is justifiable. Regardless, at this point it is clear that no one is changing anyone else's mind and the topic breeds nothing but bitter quarreling. Can we simply move on?

I would second this. I don't see any real discussion occurring at this point.


Well, it's the dead season, what do you expect? There's nothing much happening, so people discuss whatever. If you don't agree then you can simply not post here guys.

I agree with the general sentiment though, we've gone through the circles and we are not getting anywhere anytime soon.

With this, let me just wish everyone a happy new year, since it is my first posts in the forum for 2019. May everyone be healthy and enjoy a great series this year!
Happy New Year Siao7!

Considering the top 10 rated drivers constitute half of the field, how difficult can it be? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Posts: 29076
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think a driver can walk into F1, finish 11th in the WDC and get voted as being the best driver, what you are asking of me to quantify is merely diversionary.


It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think a driver can walk into F1, finish 11th in the WDC and get voted as being the best driver, what you are asking of me to quantify is merely diversionary.


It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

I think that's the whole point...


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:51 pm 
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Posts: 6765
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Honestly guys (and I don't expect you to take me up on this but it's worth a try), can we just drop it now? I think everyone has gone through their arguments multiple times at this point. Most of the people arguing for Alonso actually voted Hamilton as driver of the year. They are only saying that they think an Alonso vote is justifiable. Regardless, at this point it is clear that no one is changing anyone else's mind and the topic breeds nothing but bitter quarreling. Can we simply move on?

I would second this. I don't see any real discussion occurring at this point.


Well, it's the dead season, what do you expect? There's nothing much happening, so people discuss whatever. If you don't agree then you can simply not post here guys.

I agree with the general sentiment though, we've gone through the circles and we are not getting anywhere anytime soon.

With this, let me just wish everyone a happy new year, since it is my first posts in the forum for 2019. May everyone be healthy and enjoy a great series this year!
Happy New Year Siao7!

Considering the top 10 rated drivers constitute half of the field, how difficult can it be? :D

You too Fiki, we will be in for a treat this year. Read it here first!


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Posts: 24104
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think a driver can walk into F1, finish 11th in the WDC and get voted as being the best driver, what you are asking of me to quantify is merely diversionary.


It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

You're the one who keeps giving it as a reason, therefore you must have a minimum criteria. If you don't then how can you justify giving it as a reason? You're basically admitting your reasons for objecting to Alonso are just fabricated :?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:44 pm 
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Posts: 24104
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Siao7 wrote:



It's pretty straightforward


:thumbup:

I think that Hamilton is the best driver on the grid and was driver of the season 2018. But the "no precedent" reasoning against voting for Alonso really makes no sense.

Yeah, I don't think he gets it

I don't think that people get why a driver without any previous reputation in F1 gets voted the best drive after only finishing 11th in the WDC, I see people blowing a lot of hot air.


This hasn't happened, it is an imaginary scenario that you keep banging on and frankly has no weight in this conversation. There is no new driver that walked in and got 11th and DotY, so please drop this and move on. The other thing is your "precedent" idea, your statements come across as thinking that nothing can happen in F1 without a precedent, which is so wrong that I frankly can't even start arguing about it if you can't see it.

yeah exactly this. The unproven driver scenario is just a strawman


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:18 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
You too Fiki, we will be in for a treat this year. Read it here first!
We are? A bit too late I'm afraid, Stoffel's gone just after they discovered they had two drivers in the garage.

Ah well, at least Kimi's still there! :D And, just to get back to the topic; he's in my top 5, let alone top 10.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:15 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
You too Fiki, we will be in for a treat this year. Read it here first!
We are? A bit too late I'm afraid, Stoffel's gone just after they discovered they had two drivers in the garage.

Ah well, at least Kimi's still there! :D And, just to get back to the topic; he's in my top 5, let alone top 10.


Hahaha, touche!

What's your top 10 Fiki, we got distracted and I do not recall it


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:57 am 
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I don't really "rate" the drivers, as I have too little information on which to do this. I used to be able to watch coverage from Britain, France, Germany and Belgium until a few years ago, which helped. Those days are gone and bias is now so overwhelming the only two drivers I hear about are Verstappen and Hamilton. Both are in my top 10, but Verstappen is nowhere near being in the top 5. He will be once he starts to understand speed and arrogance aren't enough. I do "rate" Alonso higher than him.
Perhaps it helps to see my problem if you consider Autosport's recent article on how Alonso "pulverised" Vandoorne. If you never provide insight into how the team work with their drivers, and you then note that due to experience Alonso can handle the particular car behaviour that Vandoorne couldn't, how can you expect your readers to make a distinction between speed and ability? I know I can't, not on the information available to me. Which is why I sometimes read with great interest how some of our fellow forum members arrive at their rankings. Coming back to Verstappen; with the amount of bias his team has shown him, he should by now be firmly in the top 5, but in my view is still behind Ricciardo.

Räikkönen, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso and a troubled Vettel I think would be in my top 5. Which just leaves Verstappen, Bottas, Hülkenberg, Leclerc and I believe Perez. I wish we could have seen Stoffel in a top team, but seeing how Bottas got treated this year, my main verdict on F1 at present is that despite the obscene amounts of money involved, most teams are 1-car teams only. And that is depressing. (Edit: perhaps I shouldn't be surprised; Lauda came to more or less the same conclusion in 1985, though the possibility exists this only applied to McLaren, even then... And that would be even more depressing. :D )

I can only hope you're right about that treat. F1 needs to turn its ship around.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:38 am 
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Fiki wrote:
I don't really "rate" the drivers, as I have too little information on which to do this. I used to be able to watch coverage from Britain, France, Germany and Belgium until a few years ago, which helped. Those days are gone and bias is now so overwhelming the only two drivers I hear about are Verstappen and Hamilton. Both are in my top 10, but Verstappen is nowhere near being in the top 5. He will be once he starts to understand speed and arrogance aren't enough. I do "rate" Alonso higher than him.
Perhaps it helps to see my problem if you consider Autosport's recent article on how Alonso "pulverised" Vandoorne. If you never provide insight into how the team work with their drivers, and you then note that due to experience Alonso can handle the particular car behaviour that Vandoorne couldn't, how can you expect your readers to make a distinction between speed and ability? I know I can't, not on the information available to me. Which is why I sometimes read with great interest how some of our fellow forum members arrive at their rankings. Coming back to Verstappen; with the amount of bias his team has shown him, he should by now be firmly in the top 5, but in my view is still behind Ricciardo.

Räikkönen, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso and a troubled Vettel I think would be in my top 5. Which just leaves Verstappen, Bottas, Hülkenberg, Leclerc and I believe Perez. I wish we could have seen Stoffel in a top team, but seeing how Bottas got treated this year, my main verdict on F1 at present is that despite the obscene amounts of money involved, most teams are 1-car teams only. And that is depressing. (Edit: perhaps I shouldn't be surprised; Lauda came to more or less the same conclusion in 1985, though the possibility exists this only applied to McLaren, even then... And that would be even more depressing. :D )

I can only hope you're right about that treat. F1 needs to turn its ship around.


Unfortunately, 1-car teams are the way forward when there are more than one teams at the front. When there's a clear favourite like the Maccas in the late 80's or the Mercs recently, then they let them fight it fair and square, as they are not in danger of losing the WDC. As Frank Williams said once, they are only drivers, I don't care which one brings the points (something like that!).

Do you have that article about Alonso? It sounds like a good read, I do not recall reading it.

I also agree about Ricciardo and Max, between the two I'd chose Daniel, for the time being. Until Max iron's out his driving and character, then he will be great to watch. As for his character I can live with that, same way with Hamilton, I enjoy his brilliant driving and have learned to ignore what he sometimes says outside the car. In contrast to Kimi who is a joy to watch and listen to!


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29076
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

I think that's the whole point...

No you deal with things when they actually happen, in this case does Alonso 2018 season merit him as having the best season out of all the drivers, I along with 95+% other people say no.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:32 pm 
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Posts: 29076
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
It's completely relevant. If 11th is too low then there must be a cut off point? What is your cut off point?

I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

You're the one who keeps giving it as a reason, therefore you must have a minimum criteria. If you don't then how can you justify giving it as a reason? You're basically admitting your reasons for objecting to Alonso are just fabricated :?

It's my reasons that are fabricated, that's interesting to say the least.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29076
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
:thumbup:

I think that Hamilton is the best driver on the grid and was driver of the season 2018. But the "no precedent" reasoning against voting for Alonso really makes no sense.

Yeah, I don't think he gets it

I don't think that people get why a driver without any previous reputation in F1 gets voted the best drive after only finishing 11th in the WDC, I see people blowing a lot of hot air.


This hasn't happened, it is an imaginary scenario that you keep banging on and frankly has no weight in this conversation. There is no new driver that walked in and got 11th and DotY, so please drop this and move on. The other thing is your "precedent" idea, your statements come across as thinking that nothing can happen in F1 without a precedent, which is so wrong that I frankly can't even start arguing about it if you can't see it.

yeah exactly this. The unproven driver scenario is just a strawman

That's interesting because that's something you yourself do quite often.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:35 pm 
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Posts: 7446
Location: Belgium
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't really "rate" the drivers, as I have too little information on which to do this. I used to be able to watch coverage from Britain, France, Germany and Belgium until a few years ago, which helped. Those days are gone and bias is now so overwhelming the only two drivers I hear about are Verstappen and Hamilton. Both are in my top 10, but Verstappen is nowhere near being in the top 5. He will be once he starts to understand speed and arrogance aren't enough. I do "rate" Alonso higher than him.
Perhaps it helps to see my problem if you consider Autosport's recent article on how Alonso "pulverised" Vandoorne. If you never provide insight into how the team work with their drivers, and you then note that due to experience Alonso can handle the particular car behaviour that Vandoorne couldn't, how can you expect your readers to make a distinction between speed and ability? I know I can't, not on the information available to me. Which is why I sometimes read with great interest how some of our fellow forum members arrive at their rankings. Coming back to Verstappen; with the amount of bias his team has shown him, he should by now be firmly in the top 5, but in my view is still behind Ricciardo.

Räikkönen, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso and a troubled Vettel I think would be in my top 5. Which just leaves Verstappen, Bottas, Hülkenberg, Leclerc and I believe Perez. I wish we could have seen Stoffel in a top team, but seeing how Bottas got treated this year, my main verdict on F1 at present is that despite the obscene amounts of money involved, most teams are 1-car teams only. And that is depressing. (Edit: perhaps I shouldn't be surprised; Lauda came to more or less the same conclusion in 1985, though the possibility exists this only applied to McLaren, even then... And that would be even more depressing. :D )

I can only hope you're right about that treat. F1 needs to turn its ship around.


Unfortunately, 1-car teams are the way forward when there are more than one teams at the front. When there's a clear favourite like the Maccas in the late 80's or the Mercs recently, then they let them fight it fair and square, as they are not in danger of losing the WDC. As Frank Williams said once, they are only drivers, I don't care which one brings the points (something like that!).

Do you have that article about Alonso? It sounds like a good read, I do not recall reading it.

I also agree about Ricciardo and Max, between the two I'd chose Daniel, for the time being. Until Max iron's out his driving and character, then he will be great to watch. As for his character I can live with that, same way with Hamilton, I enjoy his brilliant driving and have learned to ignore what he sometimes says outside the car. In contrast to Kimi who is a joy to watch and listen to!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/8712/how-alonso-pulverised-vandoorne This is the link to the Alonso article.

I'm not sure at all teams let their drivers fight fair and square, even when they are the clear top team/car. My main reason for being suspicious is unnecessary use of team orders. (No need to tell me they are now legal. Try telling betting people how a sporting body explains their use in a sport that allows them.) Another reason is clearly coming out as Red Bull did; saying Max could build the team around him.

As for Frank Williams not minding which driver brought in the points; do you recall the reception Thierry Boutsen got when he came back from the 1990 Hungarian podium with the winner's trophy?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't really "rate" the drivers, as I have too little information on which to do this. I used to be able to watch coverage from Britain, France, Germany and Belgium until a few years ago, which helped. Those days are gone and bias is now so overwhelming the only two drivers I hear about are Verstappen and Hamilton. Both are in my top 10, but Verstappen is nowhere near being in the top 5. He will be once he starts to understand speed and arrogance aren't enough. I do "rate" Alonso higher than him.
Perhaps it helps to see my problem if you consider Autosport's recent article on how Alonso "pulverised" Vandoorne. If you never provide insight into how the team work with their drivers, and you then note that due to experience Alonso can handle the particular car behaviour that Vandoorne couldn't, how can you expect your readers to make a distinction between speed and ability? I know I can't, not on the information available to me. Which is why I sometimes read with great interest how some of our fellow forum members arrive at their rankings. Coming back to Verstappen; with the amount of bias his team has shown him, he should by now be firmly in the top 5, but in my view is still behind Ricciardo.

Räikkönen, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso and a troubled Vettel I think would be in my top 5. Which just leaves Verstappen, Bottas, Hülkenberg, Leclerc and I believe Perez. I wish we could have seen Stoffel in a top team, but seeing how Bottas got treated this year, my main verdict on F1 at present is that despite the obscene amounts of money involved, most teams are 1-car teams only. And that is depressing. (Edit: perhaps I shouldn't be surprised; Lauda came to more or less the same conclusion in 1985, though the possibility exists this only applied to McLaren, even then... And that would be even more depressing. :D )

I can only hope you're right about that treat. F1 needs to turn its ship around.


Unfortunately, 1-car teams are the way forward when there are more than one teams at the front. When there's a clear favourite like the Maccas in the late 80's or the Mercs recently, then they let them fight it fair and square, as they are not in danger of losing the WDC. As Frank Williams said once, they are only drivers, I don't care which one brings the points (something like that!).

Do you have that article about Alonso? It sounds like a good read, I do not recall reading it.

I also agree about Ricciardo and Max, between the two I'd chose Daniel, for the time being. Until Max iron's out his driving and character, then he will be great to watch. As for his character I can live with that, same way with Hamilton, I enjoy his brilliant driving and have learned to ignore what he sometimes says outside the car. In contrast to Kimi who is a joy to watch and listen to!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/8712/how-alonso-pulverised-vandoorne This is the link to the Alonso article.

I'm not sure at all teams let their drivers fight fair and square, even when they are the clear top team/car. My main reason for being suspicious is unnecessary use of team orders. (No need to tell me they are now legal. Try telling betting people how a sporting body explains their use in a sport that allows them.) Another reason is clearly coming out as Red Bull did; saying Max could build the team around him.

As for Frank Williams not minding which driver brought in the points; do you recall the reception Thierry Boutsen got when he came back from the 1990 Hungarian podium with the winner's trophy?

I'm not able to read that, could you highlight the important bits?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

You're the one who keeps giving it as a reason, therefore you must have a minimum criteria. If you don't then how can you justify giving it as a reason? You're basically admitting your reasons for objecting to Alonso are just fabricated :?

It's my reasons that are fabricated, that's interesting to say the least.

you're giving a reason for dismissing him which you readily admit you cannot quantify. Which makes the reasoning completely spurious

It's like fining someone for speeding without telling them what speed they are allowed to go


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Yeah, I don't think he gets it

I don't think that people get why a driver without any previous reputation in F1 gets voted the best drive after only finishing 11th in the WDC, I see people blowing a lot of hot air.


This hasn't happened, it is an imaginary scenario that you keep banging on and frankly has no weight in this conversation. There is no new driver that walked in and got 11th and DotY, so please drop this and move on. The other thing is your "precedent" idea, your statements come across as thinking that nothing can happen in F1 without a precedent, which is so wrong that I frankly can't even start arguing about it if you can't see it.

yeah exactly this. The unproven driver scenario is just a strawman

That's interesting because that's something you yourself do quite often.

this is again just a completely random, unquantified statement. In the current discussion you're creating goalposts seemingly out of thin air and when pressed you aren't able to back any of them up.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what Alonso achieved is below any kind of cut off point and he only gets voted #1 because of his past reputation which in itself is fair enough.

In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

I think that's the whole point...

No you deal with things when they actually happen, in this case does Alonso 2018 season merit him as having the best season out of all the drivers, I along with 95+% other people say no.

How does this bode with your imaginary scenarios so far?


Last edited by Siao7 on Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't really "rate" the drivers, as I have too little information on which to do this. I used to be able to watch coverage from Britain, France, Germany and Belgium until a few years ago, which helped. Those days are gone and bias is now so overwhelming the only two drivers I hear about are Verstappen and Hamilton. Both are in my top 10, but Verstappen is nowhere near being in the top 5. He will be once he starts to understand speed and arrogance aren't enough. I do "rate" Alonso higher than him.
Perhaps it helps to see my problem if you consider Autosport's recent article on how Alonso "pulverised" Vandoorne. If you never provide insight into how the team work with their drivers, and you then note that due to experience Alonso can handle the particular car behaviour that Vandoorne couldn't, how can you expect your readers to make a distinction between speed and ability? I know I can't, not on the information available to me. Which is why I sometimes read with great interest how some of our fellow forum members arrive at their rankings. Coming back to Verstappen; with the amount of bias his team has shown him, he should by now be firmly in the top 5, but in my view is still behind Ricciardo.

Räikkönen, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso and a troubled Vettel I think would be in my top 5. Which just leaves Verstappen, Bottas, Hülkenberg, Leclerc and I believe Perez. I wish we could have seen Stoffel in a top team, but seeing how Bottas got treated this year, my main verdict on F1 at present is that despite the obscene amounts of money involved, most teams are 1-car teams only. And that is depressing. (Edit: perhaps I shouldn't be surprised; Lauda came to more or less the same conclusion in 1985, though the possibility exists this only applied to McLaren, even then... And that would be even more depressing. :D )

I can only hope you're right about that treat. F1 needs to turn its ship around.


Unfortunately, 1-car teams are the way forward when there are more than one teams at the front. When there's a clear favourite like the Maccas in the late 80's or the Mercs recently, then they let them fight it fair and square, as they are not in danger of losing the WDC. As Frank Williams said once, they are only drivers, I don't care which one brings the points (something like that!).

Do you have that article about Alonso? It sounds like a good read, I do not recall reading it.

I also agree about Ricciardo and Max, between the two I'd chose Daniel, for the time being. Until Max iron's out his driving and character, then he will be great to watch. As for his character I can live with that, same way with Hamilton, I enjoy his brilliant driving and have learned to ignore what he sometimes says outside the car. In contrast to Kimi who is a joy to watch and listen to!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/8712/how-alonso-pulverised-vandoorne This is the link to the Alonso article.

I'm not sure at all teams let their drivers fight fair and square, even when they are the clear top team/car. My main reason for being suspicious is unnecessary use of team orders. (No need to tell me they are now legal. Try telling betting people how a sporting body explains their use in a sport that allows them.) Another reason is clearly coming out as Red Bull did; saying Max could build the team around him.

As for Frank Williams not minding which driver brought in the points; do you recall the reception Thierry Boutsen got when he came back from the 1990 Hungarian podium with the winner's trophy?


Thanks for the link Fiki, I'll have a read tonight.

I'm afraid you'll have to help me with the last sentence please!


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

You're the one who keeps giving it as a reason, therefore you must have a minimum criteria. If you don't then how can you justify giving it as a reason? You're basically admitting your reasons for objecting to Alonso are just fabricated :?

It's my reasons that are fabricated, that's interesting to say the least.

you're giving a reason for dismissing him which you readily admit you cannot quantify. Which makes the reasoning completely spurious

It's like fining someone for speeding without telling them what speed they are allowed to go

I believe I gave reasons why Alonso can't be considered the best driver in F1 based merely on his 2018 season?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:19 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
In order for Alonso to be below the cutoff point, there has to be a cutoff point. That you so persistently avoid the question despite it being posed by several people, repeatedly, tells me that you know you have no answer but you simply cannot bring yourself to admit it

This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

I think that's the whole point...

No you deal with things when they actually happen, in this case does Alonso 2018 season merit him as having the best season out of all the drivers, I along with 95+% other people say no.

How does this bode with your imaginary scenarios so far?

You mean trying to explain in many different ways why it's not normal for a driver like Alonso to have had the season he has had and for that to be described as the best season of all the drivers?

On here he only received 1 DoTD award, Leclerc got 1, Gasly got 2, surely all these incredible performances would have stood out more?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Posts: 6765
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

I think that's the whole point...

No you deal with things when they actually happen, in this case does Alonso 2018 season merit him as having the best season out of all the drivers, I along with 95+% other people say no.

How does this bode with your imaginary scenarios so far?

You mean trying to explain in many different ways why it's not normal for a driver like Alonso to have had the season he has had and for that to be described as the best season of all the drivers?

On here he only received 1 DoTD award, Leclerc got 1, Gasly got 2, surely all these incredible performances would have stood out more?

No, I meant trying to explain the bold part since you are not following your own writing. Doesn't matter really


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:27 pm 
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Posts: 24104
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This is like asking me how long is a piece of string.

You're the one who keeps giving it as a reason, therefore you must have a minimum criteria. If you don't then how can you justify giving it as a reason? You're basically admitting your reasons for objecting to Alonso are just fabricated :?

It's my reasons that are fabricated, that's interesting to say the least.

you're giving a reason for dismissing him which you readily admit you cannot quantify. Which makes the reasoning completely spurious

It's like fining someone for speeding without telling them what speed they are allowed to go

I believe I gave reasons why Alonso can't be considered the best driver in F1 based merely on his 2018 season?

yes, like saying he finished 11th and didn't get any podiums. But you seem unable or unwilling to define those criteria as to what the minimum expectation for both should be. Which in turn makes the reasons nonsense


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:38 am 
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Posts: 7446
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't really "rate" the drivers, as I have too little information on which to do this. I used to be able to watch coverage from Britain, France, Germany and Belgium until a few years ago, which helped. Those days are gone and bias is now so overwhelming the only two drivers I hear about are Verstappen and Hamilton. Both are in my top 10, but Verstappen is nowhere near being in the top 5. He will be once he starts to understand speed and arrogance aren't enough. I do "rate" Alonso higher than him.
Perhaps it helps to see my problem if you consider Autosport's recent article on how Alonso "pulverised" Vandoorne. If you never provide insight into how the team work with their drivers, and you then note that due to experience Alonso can handle the particular car behaviour that Vandoorne couldn't, how can you expect your readers to make a distinction between speed and ability? I know I can't, not on the information available to me. Which is why I sometimes read with great interest how some of our fellow forum members arrive at their rankings. Coming back to Verstappen; with the amount of bias his team has shown him, he should by now be firmly in the top 5, but in my view is still behind Ricciardo.

Räikkönen, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Alonso and a troubled Vettel I think would be in my top 5. Which just leaves Verstappen, Bottas, Hülkenberg, Leclerc and I believe Perez. I wish we could have seen Stoffel in a top team, but seeing how Bottas got treated this year, my main verdict on F1 at present is that despite the obscene amounts of money involved, most teams are 1-car teams only. And that is depressing. (Edit: perhaps I shouldn't be surprised; Lauda came to more or less the same conclusion in 1985, though the possibility exists this only applied to McLaren, even then... And that would be even more depressing. :D )

I can only hope you're right about that treat. F1 needs to turn its ship around.


Unfortunately, 1-car teams are the way forward when there are more than one teams at the front. When there's a clear favourite like the Maccas in the late 80's or the Mercs recently, then they let them fight it fair and square, as they are not in danger of losing the WDC. As Frank Williams said once, they are only drivers, I don't care which one brings the points (something like that!).

Do you have that article about Alonso? It sounds like a good read, I do not recall reading it.

I also agree about Ricciardo and Max, between the two I'd chose Daniel, for the time being. Until Max iron's out his driving and character, then he will be great to watch. As for his character I can live with that, same way with Hamilton, I enjoy his brilliant driving and have learned to ignore what he sometimes says outside the car. In contrast to Kimi who is a joy to watch and listen to!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/8712/how-alonso-pulverised-vandoorne This is the link to the Alonso article.

I'm not sure at all teams let their drivers fight fair and square, even when they are the clear top team/car. My main reason for being suspicious is unnecessary use of team orders. (No need to tell me they are now legal. Try telling betting people how a sporting body explains their use in a sport that allows them.) Another reason is clearly coming out as Red Bull did; saying Max could build the team around him.

As for Frank Williams not minding which driver brought in the points; do you recall the reception Thierry Boutsen got when he came back from the 1990 Hungarian podium with the winner's trophy?


Thanks for the link Fiki, I'll have a read tonight.

I'm afraid you'll have to help me with the last sentence please!
This will help you understand, read the last 3 paragraphs. Note that the day before his final race win, Boutsen had set pole position. : http://f1i.com/magazine/19040-classic-hungarian-gp-boutsens-tour-de-force.html

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I think that's the whole point...

No you deal with things when they actually happen, in this case does Alonso 2018 season merit him as having the best season out of all the drivers, I along with 95+% other people say no.

How does this bode with your imaginary scenarios so far?

You mean trying to explain in many different ways why it's not normal for a driver like Alonso to have had the season he has had and for that to be described as the best season of all the drivers?

On here he only received 1 DoTD award, Leclerc got 1, Gasly got 2, surely all these incredible performances would have stood out more?

No, I meant trying to explain the bold part since you are not following your own writing. Doesn't matter really

Yeah I'm not really understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You're the one who keeps giving it as a reason, therefore you must have a minimum criteria. If you don't then how can you justify giving it as a reason? You're basically admitting your reasons for objecting to Alonso are just fabricated :?

It's my reasons that are fabricated, that's interesting to say the least.

you're giving a reason for dismissing him which you readily admit you cannot quantify. Which makes the reasoning completely spurious

It's like fining someone for speeding without telling them what speed they are allowed to go

I believe I gave reasons why Alonso can't be considered the best driver in F1 based merely on his 2018 season?

yes, like saying he finished 11th and didn't get any podiums. But you seem unable or unwilling to define those criteria as to what the minimum expectation for both should be. Which in turn makes the reasons nonsense

He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?

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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's my reasons that are fabricated, that's interesting to say the least.

you're giving a reason for dismissing him which you readily admit you cannot quantify. Which makes the reasoning completely spurious

It's like fining someone for speeding without telling them what speed they are allowed to go

I believe I gave reasons why Alonso can't be considered the best driver in F1 based merely on his 2018 season?

yes, like saying he finished 11th and didn't get any podiums. But you seem unable or unwilling to define those criteria as to what the minimum expectation for both should be. Which in turn makes the reasons nonsense

He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?

Still not giving an answer, I see.

If you put it like that, when did Hamilton transcend his car? And please don't talk about poles and wins because Alonso clearly wasn't in a car to get either.

Alonso's performances have been referenced above. The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.


Loathe as I am to get drawn into this, I am interested in how this is a fact? What is this fact based on? Vandoorne is no reference for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:36 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.


Loathe as I am to get drawn into this, I am interested in how this is a fact? What is this fact based on? Vandoorne is no reference for sure.

He's the only reference we have. If Alonso had had similar results they would have been lucky to beat Toro Rosso.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:47 pm 
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j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.


I think on average it was the 9th best car. It was the very worst at some tracks. It was certainly worse than the Sauber or STR in more tracks than it was better. I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.

I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

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