planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:12 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

Vandoorne finished 16th.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
you're giving a reason for dismissing him which you readily admit you cannot quantify. Which makes the reasoning completely spurious

It's like fining someone for speeding without telling them what speed they are allowed to go

I believe I gave reasons why Alonso can't be considered the best driver in F1 based merely on his 2018 season?

yes, like saying he finished 11th and didn't get any podiums. But you seem unable or unwilling to define those criteria as to what the minimum expectation for both should be. Which in turn makes the reasons nonsense

He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?

Still not giving an answer, I see.

If you put it like that, when did Hamilton transcend his car? And please don't talk about poles and wins because Alonso clearly wasn't in a car to get either.

Alonso's performances have been referenced above. The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.

Hamilton beat Vettel, who did Alonso beat?

Why so little mention of Alonso's performances in the DoTD threads, why only the one vote for him?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.


Loathe as I am to get drawn into this, I am interested in how this is a fact? What is this fact based on? Vandoorne is no reference for sure.

He's the only reference we have. If Alonso had had similar results they would have been lucky to beat Toro Rosso.

You vote for Alonso on the strength of him basically beating a rookie driver?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.

I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7009
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.

I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

... and that has exactly what to do with my post? I didn't mention either Massa or Kimi, and one of them isn't even driving anymore. Do the numbers say he's slower than Ericsson and Hartley?

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15253
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

Vandoorne finished 16th.


Yes.....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.

I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

that's not strictly speaking true...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.


Loathe as I am to get drawn into this, I am interested in how this is a fact? What is this fact based on? Vandoorne is no reference for sure.

He's the only reference we have. If Alonso had had similar results they would have been lucky to beat Toro Rosso.

You vote for Alonso on the strength of him basically beating a rookie driver?
You voted for Hamilton on the strength of him beating Bottas?

I'm curious why you think I should answer your question when you steadfastly refuse to answer mine?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe I gave reasons why Alonso can't be considered the best driver in F1 based merely on his 2018 season?

yes, like saying he finished 11th and didn't get any podiums. But you seem unable or unwilling to define those criteria as to what the minimum expectation for both should be. Which in turn makes the reasons nonsense

He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?

Still not giving an answer, I see.

If you put it like that, when did Hamilton transcend his car? And please don't talk about poles and wins because Alonso clearly wasn't in a car to get either.

Alonso's performances have been referenced above. The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.

Hamilton beat Vettel, who did Alonso beat?

Why so little mention of Alonso's performances in the DoTD threads, why only the one vote for him?

Alonso beat the drivers his car was capable of beating. Not entirely sure what else you expect him to do?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.

I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

... and that has exactly what to do with my post? I didn't mention either Massa or Kimi, and one of them isn't even driving anymore. Do the numbers say he's slower than Ericsson and Hartley?

Alonso still beat a driver not rated by F1 standards and on that premise alone we can determine he was the best driver in 2018 it seems?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

Vandoorne finished 16th.


Yes.....

So he out performed the McLaren as well, why isn't he in anybody's top 10 list?

Edit: Why did McLaren sack him for Sainz, a driver not rated in the top 10, and Norris a driver that was well beaten by George Russell in F2?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
I would dispute 17/18th. Vandoorne finished 16th (ahead of Ericsson and Hartley) and that was deemed such a poor performance that McLaren dropped him. The McLaren may have been the 9th best car by the end of the season, but for much of the year it wasn't. The two cars qualified 11th and 12th in Australia.

I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

that's not strictly speaking true...

It's true to say that Kimi can still find employment in F1 whilst Vandoorne can't so why would you be thinking that Vandoorne might be faster?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.


Loathe as I am to get drawn into this, I am interested in how this is a fact? What is this fact based on? Vandoorne is no reference for sure.

He's the only reference we have. If Alonso had had similar results they would have been lucky to beat Toro Rosso.

You vote for Alonso on the strength of him basically beating a rookie driver?
You voted for Hamilton on the strength of him beating Bottas?

I'm curious why you think I should answer your question when you steadfastly refuse to answer mine?

He beat the guy who you thought was better than him no more than 12 months ago, a 4 time WDC, and he beat him easily, whilst Alonso was racing against lesser drivers.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes, like saying he finished 11th and didn't get any podiums. But you seem unable or unwilling to define those criteria as to what the minimum expectation for both should be. Which in turn makes the reasons nonsense

He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?

Still not giving an answer, I see.

If you put it like that, when did Hamilton transcend his car? And please don't talk about poles and wins because Alonso clearly wasn't in a car to get either.

Alonso's performances have been referenced above. The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.

Hamilton beat Vettel, who did Alonso beat?

Why so little mention of Alonso's performances in the DoTD threads, why only the one vote for him?

Alonso beat the drivers his car was capable of beating. Not entirely sure what else you expect him to do?

You could make the same statement if he beat all the drivers in F2, there is something called the quality of the opposition.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9617
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

... and that has exactly what to do with my post? I didn't mention either Massa or Kimi, and one of them isn't even driving anymore. Do the numbers say he's slower than Ericsson and Hartley?

Alonso still beat a driver not rated by F1 standards and on that premise alone we can determine he was the best driver in 2018 it seems?

Are you still on about this? You rated him second best driver in 2018 so why is it you can't see how crazy it sounds for you to go on and on about someone rating him one step higher than yourself? I would kind of understand your stance if you didn't rate Alonso at all (outside of the top 10 or something) but you have him at no. 2 yourself.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I have no trouble believing that Vandoorne is better than Ericsson or Hartley. Don't forget the gap between Alonso and Vandoorne was consistent but not huge. I doubt the gap between the best and worst drivers in F1 is only 3 tenths. Don't forget Ericsson and Hartley were also dumped.

:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

that's not strictly speaking true...

It's true to say that Kimi can still find employment in F1 whilst Vandoorne can't so why would you be thinking that Vandoorne might be faster?

It's not about what I'm thinking, but about what the numbers say. And according to the link I posted earlier they don't say that Vandoorne is slower than either Kimi or Massa, as you posted.

Many people were surprised by the Sauber announcement, to be fair. Experience quite possibly may have had something to do with it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?

Still not giving an answer, I see.

If you put it like that, when did Hamilton transcend his car? And please don't talk about poles and wins because Alonso clearly wasn't in a car to get either.

Alonso's performances have been referenced above. The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.

Hamilton beat Vettel, who did Alonso beat?

Why so little mention of Alonso's performances in the DoTD threads, why only the one vote for him?

Alonso beat the drivers his car was capable of beating. Not entirely sure what else you expect him to do?

You could make the same statement if he beat all the drivers in F2, there is something called the quality of the opposition.

and the cars they all drive. Don't forget that


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Loathe as I am to get drawn into this, I am interested in how this is a fact? What is this fact based on? Vandoorne is no reference for sure.

He's the only reference we have. If Alonso had had similar results they would have been lucky to beat Toro Rosso.

You vote for Alonso on the strength of him basically beating a rookie driver?
You voted for Hamilton on the strength of him beating Bottas?

I'm curious why you think I should answer your question when you steadfastly refuse to answer mine?

He beat the guy who you thought was better than him no more than 12 months ago, a 4 time WDC, and he beat him easily, whilst Alonso was racing against lesser drivers.

Which is why I rated him #2. He did a good job IMO. You rated Alonso #2, incidentally above the guy that Hamilton beat who according to the current position of your goalposts is the standard now, but judging from your comments on Alonso now that must mean you don't rate any of the drivers that Hamilton beat at all...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He didn't do enough simple as that, even you only voted Alonso once as DoTD, were are these multitude of performances that transcended his car?


The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

Vandoorne finished 16th.


Yes.....

So he out performed the McLaren as well, why isn't he in anybody's top 10 list?

Edit: Why did McLaren sack him for Sainz, a driver not rated in the top 10, and Norris a driver that was well beaten by George Russell in F2?

well apparently Zak Brown manages Norris, which puts an interesting perspective on things


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

... and that has exactly what to do with my post? I didn't mention either Massa or Kimi, and one of them isn't even driving anymore. Do the numbers say he's slower than Ericsson and Hartley?

Alonso still beat a driver not rated by F1 standards and on that premise alone we can determine he was the best driver in 2018 it seems?

Are you still on about this? You rated him second best driver in 2018 so why is it you can't see how crazy it sounds for you to go on and on about someone rating him one step higher than yourself? I would kind of understand your stance if you didn't rate Alonso at all (outside of the top 10 or something) but you have him at no. 2 yourself.

Still not reading what I'm saying in my posts, my high rating of Alonso is based on historical performance, there is no way I could venture him as the second best driver in F1 based solely on his 2018 season.

Similarly if you look at Leclerc I had him at #6 and even then I was thinking have I placed him too high because his teammate was only Ericsson, without historical performance it was a bit of a punt.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
:thumbup:

Anybody who's convinced themselves Vandoorne is the slowest driver in F1 is doing some serious mental gymnastics. Unless Leclerc is already - in his rookie season - about 2 tenths faster than Alonso (and thus faster than Hamilton already as well) Ericsson is probably the weaker driver. The thing that makes it look bad for Vandoorne is the consistency of Alonso, not so much the size of the gap. As for Hartley, we'll get a better idea next year when we see how close (or not) Gasly is to Verstappen.

The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

that's not strictly speaking true...

It's true to say that Kimi can still find employment in F1 whilst Vandoorne can't so why would you be thinking that Vandoorne might be faster?

It's not about what I'm thinking, but about what the numbers say. And according to the link I posted earlier they don't say that Vandoorne is slower than either Kimi or Massa, as you posted.

Many people were surprised by the Sauber announcement, to be fair. Experience quite possibly may have had something to do with it?

If you take those numbers further then Vandoorne is also quicker than Vettel, I'm quite happy with my system rather than others that seem to produce junk, in my opinion of course.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Still not giving an answer, I see.

If you put it like that, when did Hamilton transcend his car? And please don't talk about poles and wins because Alonso clearly wasn't in a car to get either.

Alonso's performances have been referenced above. The fact that he almost single handedly put McLaren 3, or possibly even 4, positions higher than they would otherwise have achieved is fairly remarkable in itself.

Hamilton beat Vettel, who did Alonso beat?

Why so little mention of Alonso's performances in the DoTD threads, why only the one vote for him?

Alonso beat the drivers his car was capable of beating. Not entirely sure what else you expect him to do?

You could make the same statement if he beat all the drivers in F2, there is something called the quality of the opposition.

and the cars they all drive. Don't forget that

If you are so into taking account of all this why the lack of DoTD awards for Alonso?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He's the only reference we have. If Alonso had had similar results they would have been lucky to beat Toro Rosso.

You vote for Alonso on the strength of him basically beating a rookie driver?
You voted for Hamilton on the strength of him beating Bottas?

I'm curious why you think I should answer your question when you steadfastly refuse to answer mine?

He beat the guy who you thought was better than him no more than 12 months ago, a 4 time WDC, and he beat him easily, whilst Alonso was racing against lesser drivers.

Which is why I rated him #2. He did a good job IMO. You rated Alonso #2, incidentally above the guy that Hamilton beat who according to the current position of your goalposts is the standard now, but judging from your comments on Alonso now that must mean you don't rate any of the drivers that Hamilton beat at all...

Because I rated Alonso as better than Vettel before the season started and what changed to alter that, we can't say that Alonso drove poorly and Vettel certainly didn't raise his bar, you always rate Alonso as being better than Hamilton and on that premise fair enough, but to categorically state that Alonso drove better than any other driver in 2018 seems made up really, were are all the plaudits for Alonso during the season itself?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi.

that's not strictly speaking true...

It's true to say that Kimi can still find employment in F1 whilst Vandoorne can't so why would you be thinking that Vandoorne might be faster?

It's not about what I'm thinking, but about what the numbers say. And according to the link I posted earlier they don't say that Vandoorne is slower than either Kimi or Massa, as you posted.

Many people were surprised by the Sauber announcement, to be fair. Experience quite possibly may have had something to do with it?

If you take those numbers further then Vandoorne is also quicker than Vettel, I'm quite happy with my system rather than others that seem to produce junk, in my opinion of course.

Only if you're very creative, as the article doesn't even mention Vettel as far as I can tell.

Unless you're claiming they made the numbers up, I don't see how you could call them junk. You can't just take your own version as the only correct one and expect everybody else to accept that, be serious.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the fact that you appear to have such wildly different figures only illustrates the dangers of putting too much store in numbers like this. But you also can't just state with any authority that "the numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi," because clearly there's more than one way of interpreting those numbers and it's highly debatable at the very least


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The season as a whole? He finished 11th in the WDC when his car should've put him 17th/18th.

Vandoorne finished 16th.


Yes.....

So he out performed the McLaren as well, why isn't he in anybody's top 10 list?

Edit: Why did McLaren sack him for Sainz, a driver not rated in the top 10, and Norris a driver that was well beaten by George Russell in F2?

well apparently Zak Brown manages Norris, which puts an interesting perspective on things

If Vandoorne was that good he wouldn't have been sacked and at the time of Sainz's signing McLaren could already see he was getting beat by the Hulk.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton beat Vettel, who did Alonso beat?

Why so little mention of Alonso's performances in the DoTD threads, why only the one vote for him?

Alonso beat the drivers his car was capable of beating. Not entirely sure what else you expect him to do?

You could make the same statement if he beat all the drivers in F2, there is something called the quality of the opposition.

and the cars they all drive. Don't forget that

If you are so into taking account of all this why the lack of DoTD awards for Alonso?

Because those tend to be dominated by whoever won the race, regardless of how challenged he was while doing it, most likely. You know we disagree on that particular accolade


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vandoorne finished 16th.


Yes.....

So he out performed the McLaren as well, why isn't he in anybody's top 10 list?

Edit: Why did McLaren sack him for Sainz, a driver not rated in the top 10, and Norris a driver that was well beaten by George Russell in F2?

well apparently Zak Brown manages Norris, which puts an interesting perspective on things

If Vandoorne was that good he wouldn't have been sacked and at the time of Sainz's signing McLaren could already see he was getting beat by the Hulk.
There's more to driver signings than pure performance, as you well know. Kimi was let go by Ferrari and yet Sauber took him on. How to explain that particular conundrum?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You vote for Alonso on the strength of him basically beating a rookie driver?
You voted for Hamilton on the strength of him beating Bottas?

I'm curious why you think I should answer your question when you steadfastly refuse to answer mine?

He beat the guy who you thought was better than him no more than 12 months ago, a 4 time WDC, and he beat him easily, whilst Alonso was racing against lesser drivers.

Which is why I rated him #2. He did a good job IMO. You rated Alonso #2, incidentally above the guy that Hamilton beat who according to the current position of your goalposts is the standard now, but judging from your comments on Alonso now that must mean you don't rate any of the drivers that Hamilton beat at all...

Because I rated Alonso as better than Vettel before the season started and what changed to alter that, we can't say that Alonso drove poorly and Vettel certainly didn't raise his bar, you always rate Alonso as being better than Hamilton and on that premise fair enough, but to categorically state that Alonso drove better than any other driver in 2018 seems made up really, were are all the plaudits for Alonso during the season itself?

Once again, you voted Alonso better than every driver bar Hamilton in 2018. I'm simply going one small step higher. Are there different rules for 1st and 2nd place that I'm not aware of?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
that's not strictly speaking true...

It's true to say that Kimi can still find employment in F1 whilst Vandoorne can't so why would you be thinking that Vandoorne might be faster?

It's not about what I'm thinking, but about what the numbers say. And according to the link I posted earlier they don't say that Vandoorne is slower than either Kimi or Massa, as you posted.

Many people were surprised by the Sauber announcement, to be fair. Experience quite possibly may have had something to do with it?

If you take those numbers further then Vandoorne is also quicker than Vettel, I'm quite happy with my system rather than others that seem to produce junk, in my opinion of course.

Only if you're very creative, as the article doesn't even mention Vettel as far as I can tell.

Unless you're claiming they made the numbers up, I don't see how you could call them junk. You can't just take your own version as the only correct one and expect everybody else to accept that, be serious.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the fact that you appear to have such wildly different figures only illustrates the dangers of putting too much store in numbers like this. But you also can't just state with any authority that "the numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi," because clearly there's more than one way of interpreting those numbers and it's highly debatable at the very least

You have a set of numbers that say that Vandoorne is faster than Kimi and Massa, Vettel is 2 tenths faster than Kimi so maybe that helps you, and with these numbers Vandoorne should be a sought after driver.

Then you have my numbers that say Vandoorne is slower than Kimi and Massa and maybe F1 is not for him and now he's driving in FE.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Alonso beat the drivers his car was capable of beating. Not entirely sure what else you expect him to do?

You could make the same statement if he beat all the drivers in F2, there is something called the quality of the opposition.

and the cars they all drive. Don't forget that

If you are so into taking account of all this why the lack of DoTD awards for Alonso?

Because those tend to be dominated by whoever won the race, regardless of how challenged he was while doing it, most likely. You know we disagree on that particular accolade

I'm referring to your own choices.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's true to say that Kimi can still find employment in F1 whilst Vandoorne can't so why would you be thinking that Vandoorne might be faster?

It's not about what I'm thinking, but about what the numbers say. And according to the link I posted earlier they don't say that Vandoorne is slower than either Kimi or Massa, as you posted.

Many people were surprised by the Sauber announcement, to be fair. Experience quite possibly may have had something to do with it?

If you take those numbers further then Vandoorne is also quicker than Vettel, I'm quite happy with my system rather than others that seem to produce junk, in my opinion of course.

Only if you're very creative, as the article doesn't even mention Vettel as far as I can tell.

Unless you're claiming they made the numbers up, I don't see how you could call them junk. You can't just take your own version as the only correct one and expect everybody else to accept that, be serious.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the fact that you appear to have such wildly different figures only illustrates the dangers of putting too much store in numbers like this. But you also can't just state with any authority that "the numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi," because clearly there's more than one way of interpreting those numbers and it's highly debatable at the very least

You have a set of numbers that say that Vandoorne is faster than Kimi and Massa, Vettel is 2 tenths faster than Kimi so maybe that helps you, and with these numbers Vandoorne should be a sought after driver.

Then you have my numbers that say Vandoorne is slower than Kimi and Massa and maybe F1 is not for him and now he's driving in FE.

there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes.....

So he out performed the McLaren as well, why isn't he in anybody's top 10 list?

Edit: Why did McLaren sack him for Sainz, a driver not rated in the top 10, and Norris a driver that was well beaten by George Russell in F2?

well apparently Zak Brown manages Norris, which puts an interesting perspective on things

If Vandoorne was that good he wouldn't have been sacked and at the time of Sainz's signing McLaren could already see he was getting beat by the Hulk.
There's more to driver signings than pure performance, as you well know. Kimi was let go by Ferrari and yet Sauber took him on. How to explain that particular conundrum?

Because Sauber are unable to sign the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo so go for what they consider to be next best which wasn't Vandoorne, whilst Ferrari can just about sign who they want and Kimi was just short of the mark.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You could make the same statement if he beat all the drivers in F2, there is something called the quality of the opposition.

and the cars they all drive. Don't forget that

If you are so into taking account of all this why the lack of DoTD awards for Alonso?

Because those tend to be dominated by whoever won the race, regardless of how challenged he was while doing it, most likely. You know we disagree on that particular accolade

I'm referring to your own choices.

and how many times did I vote Hamilton DotD, since you're keeping score?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So he out performed the McLaren as well, why isn't he in anybody's top 10 list?

Edit: Why did McLaren sack him for Sainz, a driver not rated in the top 10, and Norris a driver that was well beaten by George Russell in F2?

well apparently Zak Brown manages Norris, which puts an interesting perspective on things

If Vandoorne was that good he wouldn't have been sacked and at the time of Sainz's signing McLaren could already see he was getting beat by the Hulk.
There's more to driver signings than pure performance, as you well know. Kimi was let go by Ferrari and yet Sauber took him on. How to explain that particular conundrum?

Because Sauber are unable to sign the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo so go for what they consider to be next best which wasn't Vandoorne, whilst Ferrari can just about sign who they want and Kimi was just short of the mark.

And yet when Alonso was available the top teams ignored him, too. Does this mean that he's rubbish, too?

I'm hoping you're just trying to throw as much mud as you can to see what will stick as you can't seriously believe the black and white arguments you're spouting? No-one who has spent any length of time following F1 believes that hiring choices are always to go for the best available regardless of other considerations. And with the amount of knowledge I know you have I find it hard to accept you believe that yourself


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You voted for Hamilton on the strength of him beating Bottas?

I'm curious why you think I should answer your question when you steadfastly refuse to answer mine?

He beat the guy who you thought was better than him no more than 12 months ago, a 4 time WDC, and he beat him easily, whilst Alonso was racing against lesser drivers.

Which is why I rated him #2. He did a good job IMO. You rated Alonso #2, incidentally above the guy that Hamilton beat who according to the current position of your goalposts is the standard now, but judging from your comments on Alonso now that must mean you don't rate any of the drivers that Hamilton beat at all...

Because I rated Alonso as better than Vettel before the season started and what changed to alter that, we can't say that Alonso drove poorly and Vettel certainly didn't raise his bar, you always rate Alonso as being better than Hamilton and on that premise fair enough, but to categorically state that Alonso drove better than any other driver in 2018 seems made up really, were are all the plaudits for Alonso during the season itself?

Once again, you voted Alonso better than every driver bar Hamilton in 2018. I'm simply going one small step higher. Are there different rules for 1st and 2nd place that I'm not aware of?

Once again I put Alonso at #2 because it's Alonso and not because of his 2018 results, I had him at #2 the season before and had no reason to drop his rating, the drivers that were already below him didn't do enough for me to consider dropping his rating, this is my way of taking into account of car performance in order to not unfairly drop a driver's rating because on the 2018 performance alone I wouldn't be able to justify Alonso as being the #2 driver and certainly not the #1 driver.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He beat the guy who you thought was better than him no more than 12 months ago, a 4 time WDC, and he beat him easily, whilst Alonso was racing against lesser drivers.

Which is why I rated him #2. He did a good job IMO. You rated Alonso #2, incidentally above the guy that Hamilton beat who according to the current position of your goalposts is the standard now, but judging from your comments on Alonso now that must mean you don't rate any of the drivers that Hamilton beat at all...

Because I rated Alonso as better than Vettel before the season started and what changed to alter that, we can't say that Alonso drove poorly and Vettel certainly didn't raise his bar, you always rate Alonso as being better than Hamilton and on that premise fair enough, but to categorically state that Alonso drove better than any other driver in 2018 seems made up really, were are all the plaudits for Alonso during the season itself?

Once again, you voted Alonso better than every driver bar Hamilton in 2018. I'm simply going one small step higher. Are there different rules for 1st and 2nd place that I'm not aware of?

Once again I put Alonso at #2 because it's Alonso and not because of his 2018 results, I had him at #2 the season before and had no reason to drop his rating, the drivers that were already below him didn't do enough for me to consider dropping his rating, this is my way of taking into account of car performance in order to not unfairly drop a driver's rating because on the 2018 performance alone I wouldn't be able to justify Alonso as being the #2 driver and certainly not the #1 driver.

Again, is this a different standard to the one you applied for the #1 spot? If so, why the lack of consistency? And if not, then what's even the issue?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's not about what I'm thinking, but about what the numbers say. And according to the link I posted earlier they don't say that Vandoorne is slower than either Kimi or Massa, as you posted.

Many people were surprised by the Sauber announcement, to be fair. Experience quite possibly may have had something to do with it?

If you take those numbers further then Vandoorne is also quicker than Vettel, I'm quite happy with my system rather than others that seem to produce junk, in my opinion of course.

Only if you're very creative, as the article doesn't even mention Vettel as far as I can tell.

Unless you're claiming they made the numbers up, I don't see how you could call them junk. You can't just take your own version as the only correct one and expect everybody else to accept that, be serious.

Anyway, as mentioned before, the fact that you appear to have such wildly different figures only illustrates the dangers of putting too much store in numbers like this. But you also can't just state with any authority that "the numbers say that Vandoorne is slower than Massa and Kimi," because clearly there's more than one way of interpreting those numbers and it's highly debatable at the very least

You have a set of numbers that say that Vandoorne is faster than Kimi and Massa, Vettel is 2 tenths faster than Kimi so maybe that helps you, and with these numbers Vandoorne should be a sought after driver.

Then you have my numbers that say Vandoorne is slower than Kimi and Massa and maybe F1 is not for him and now he's driving in FE.

there are two separate issues here - the qualifying numbers and the team hiring patterns. You're attempting to merge the two but you know as well as I do that teams do not make hiring choices based solely on how much they beat their team-mate by in qualifying. But regardless, you can't take your numbers as the only valid ones and make blanket statements which are at the very least contestable

A team like McLaren will employ who they consider to be the fastest drivers, despite their travails they are still not a pay driver team.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
and the cars they all drive. Don't forget that

If you are so into taking account of all this why the lack of DoTD awards for Alonso?

Because those tend to be dominated by whoever won the race, regardless of how challenged he was while doing it, most likely. You know we disagree on that particular accolade

I'm referring to your own choices.

and how many times did I vote Hamilton DotD, since you're keeping score?

I checked for several things, in regards to Hamilton you gave him a share of Monza along with Kimi and Bottas, nominally you tend to vote for 1 driver, this time Bottas got equal billing as Hamilton because he held Kimi up for a few laps which helped Hamilton to win the race.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If you are so into taking account of all this why the lack of DoTD awards for Alonso?

Because those tend to be dominated by whoever won the race, regardless of how challenged he was while doing it, most likely. You know we disagree on that particular accolade

I'm referring to your own choices.

and how many times did I vote Hamilton DotD, since you're keeping score?

I checked for several things, in regards to Hamilton you gave him a share of Monza along with Kimi and Bottas, nominally you tend to vote for 1 driver, this time Bottas got equal billing as Hamilton because he held Kimi up for a few laps which helped Hamilton to win the race.

so on that you base the whole season? 8O


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Rated Drivers
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well apparently Zak Brown manages Norris, which puts an interesting perspective on things

If Vandoorne was that good he wouldn't have been sacked and at the time of Sainz's signing McLaren could already see he was getting beat by the Hulk.
There's more to driver signings than pure performance, as you well know. Kimi was let go by Ferrari and yet Sauber took him on. How to explain that particular conundrum?

Because Sauber are unable to sign the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo so go for what they consider to be next best which wasn't Vandoorne, whilst Ferrari can just about sign who they want and Kimi was just short of the mark.

And yet when Alonso was available the top teams ignored him, too. Does this mean that he's rubbish, too?

I'm hoping you're just trying to throw as much mud as you can to see what will stick as you can't seriously believe the black and white arguments you're spouting? No-one who has spent any length of time following F1 believes that hiring choices are always to go for the best available regardless of other considerations. And with the amount of knowledge I know you have I find it hard to accept you believe that yourself

In part because of Alonso's own politics however Alonso was still employable within F1 unlike Vandoorne.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Black_Flag_11, pendulumeffect and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group