planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:58 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

Which team will improve the most in 2019?
Poll runs till Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:13 am
Red Bull will be the more improved team. 25%  25%  [ 9 ]
McLaren will be the more improved team. 58%  58%  [ 21 ]
Both teams will stay where they are in the competitive order. 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 36
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6307
Location: Michigan, USA
Inspired by some discussion in the pre-season McLaren news thread.

These are two teams with ambitions to win, neither of whom was satisfied with their results in 2018 (albeit one had much better results) and both of whom believe they have what it takes to move forward in 2019. But who do you think will make the bigger step?

For Red Bull, this is a question primarily of how much advantage they will gain as a works Honda team over a customer Renault team. They were already a multiple Grand Prix winner in 2018, so the only meaningful step forward is to challenge for the championship. However, simply being able to win races on merit at power tracks might also qualify as a real step.

For Mclaren, it's not a question of having the right tools - it's a question of using them properly. McLaren will compete in 2019 with the same engine as they already have. The challenge for them lies instead in correcting their errant design path from 2018 and producing a car that can do some justice to their midfield-topping budget. Moving forward for McLaren has to mean challenging for the 'Formula 1.5' championship, a goal that - in theory - ought to be well within their means.

Note that this is not a question of which team will be better in 2019, but most improved. Although if you actually think Macca will beat Red Bull you can feel free to say so...

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2303
Red Bull won four races in 2018. If they improve any further they are basically outside contenders for the championship.


I don’t think they will improve at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm
Posts: 3121
I feel like Red Bull will be roughly where they were in 2018. Third best team, able to win races at tracks where they can make better use of their chassis, as well as picking up a couple of other victories along the way by being in the right place at the right time. Perhaps a little closer to the top two in the WDC/WCC standings, but ultimately not really fighting for either.

McLaren, I don't know what to expect. It feels like they can't really be any worse, yet at the same time I don't have any faith that they're going to turn up with a chassis on par with Red Bull or even Renault. It almost seems like unless Renault make a huge step with the engine, McLaren are still going to be fighting for 6th in the WCC at best. They also can no longer rely on Alonso to hoover up points.

Edit: I realise I never actually answered the question :lol: I'd say McLaren will improve more because they've much more time to find.

_________________
Pick 10 | 1st x3, 2nd x3, 3rd x7
2018: 5th | 2017: 6th | 2016: 8th | 2015: 2nd | 2014: 15th | 2013: 17th | 2012: 11th


Last edited by Jenson's Understeer on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
McLaren because they have far more room to improve.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 686
Location: Kansas
McLaren certainly have more room to improve and will probably improve more. Any improvement by Red Bull compared to Merc and Ferrari, will certainly be more noticed and more thoroughly discussed.

Next year Force India will have a full season effort and will probably beat McLaren, so McLaren will have to beat one more team than they did this year just to stay in sixth place in the WCC. Haas will likely be improving from fifth so getting ahead of them won't be easy. That means that McLaren will be looking to better an improving Haas or an already decent Renault team with Daniel Ricciardo. That's hard to do.

Red Bull will probably improve some and Max will probably settle down just a bit, so his performance will improve. I don't know if Gasly can match Daniel's perfomance in his first year with the team. It would certainly help if he had a more reliable car than Daniel did. Still in their first year with Honda, a lot more attention will be given to RBR next year than to McLaren, so any change in RBR's fortunes will be much more discussed than what is happening mid-pack with McLaren.

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 849
Location: India
I voted for RBR. Though Mclaren and STR did not have great year. I somehow feel RBR will not have problem. According to RBR, Honda is very close in making another big step next year. I thought Honda had good strategy this year to replace engine parts on Friday and take penalty on Saturday than risk for the race. Probably they are going to do this more next year and STR also using Honda engine will definitely help them.

I knew Mclaren would not be good this year. FI obviously could not catch them but I think they can beat Mclaren next year. I also think Sauber will be strong and Kimi will regularly be on points as they seem pretty good especially in the second half of 2018. Mclaren started developing 2019 car really early so they should not have some serious flaw in their car. They are much bigger than other midfield teams. But I doubt they can finish better than P6 next year. STR are going to get some parts from RBR so they should also improve next year. I think midfield is more competitive and difficult to predict.

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM9-GK3MeLI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 373
To borrow a phrase, Mclaren have become specialists in failure. I would back them to be closer to the top teams in terms of pace, but improving on a near miraculous 6th place in the constructors table might be tricky given the ambition of teams around them.

So in pure constructors championship terms I see neither team improving.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24104
As others have pointed out, it's far easier for McLaren to improve than it is for Red Bull. They got almost all their points in the first half of the year and since then have tumbled down the pecking order to be only just ahead of Williams by the end. Anything other than improvement would be abject failure.

That said, I think they may well suffer for not having Alonso, but I don't believe they will produce as much of a dud as they did in 2018. They won't have to worry about last-minute packaging issues, for a start, and one would imagine they won't make the same bonehead gear ratio choices two years running. At least, I hope not (mind you, I think that rule itself needs looking at. I don't see how F1 benefits by locking a team into a duff choice for a whole year. Seems a rather extreme punishment for what is clearly an error to me). And they did produce some very good ideas in 2018, as demonstrated by the fact that several of them were copied by others: they just couldn't get them to work with the underlying problems the car had. That in itself shows they are not short of creativity. And I imagine they probably turned their focus to 2019 fairly early on last year, after they saw what a poor car they'd produced. So I'm expecting them to at least jump to the front of the midfield, assuming they aren't lying about having found the root cause of their problems.

Red Bull is harder to predict for me. I think Honda's much smaller and lighter PU will be manna from heaven for Newey, but OTOH it's still really hard to guage just where Honda are performance-wise. Judging by the way TR burned through PUs in 2018 Red Bull may take a bit of pain initially at least, but on the whole I think they've done the right thing by taking Honda on board and I feel that McLaren will rue the day they walked away. So i guess I expect Red bull to be a contender performance-wise, but reliability will put paid to any title aspirations


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 3537
Zoue wrote:
[...] assuming they aren't lying [...]

...I think both teams should improve next year.

But this is F1, that's a big if. I saw the OP and wondered if the winner of this topic might just be the team that slips the least.

_________________
AlienTurnedHuman wrote:
Eurytus probably thought he was God. At least until he was banned. Which means if he was God, it makes me very scared of PF1-Mod.

Please report forum problems to us, via PM/Feedback Thread. Screenshots will also help.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4556
While McLaren has far more space to improve, they won't because of two things:

they are currently incompetent - nothing big has changed in a team that has shown fatal incompetency during last years

and they can not do that with Sainz and a rookie Norris as their drivers - see the difference between Alonso and Vandoorne, and what a difference a driver still makes today.

RBR will stay where they are - there is no real for improvement, as there are no big rule changes.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6307
Location: Michigan, USA
Lt. Drebin wrote:
they are currently incompetent - nothing big has changed in a team that has shown fatal incompetency during last years

I think they have made a change that might potentially make a difference, in that Gil de Ferran has been brought in to dismantle the matrix structure and return McLaren to a winning culture. Time will tell if it's actually worked, but something has changed.

Also, James Key is coming, but that won't affect the 2019 car very much.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 373
Without the Alonso factor, but with an improved package I reckon 80-110 constructors points would represent a mini victory for them next season.

Last season Vandoorne went on a 14 race stretch without points. This season I can see Mclaren picking up minor points on a regular basis.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
pokerman wrote:
McLaren because they have far more room to improve.


This pretty much nails it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 7:11 pm
Posts: 715
I don't see Red Bull having that much improvement left in them. I still think they'll be 2nd/3rd best over the season.
Mclaren were awful, they can only get better. They could easily end up as the 4th or 5th best package.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5693
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
McLaren because they have far more room to improve.


This pretty much nails it!

Yup. McLaren would be hard-pressed not to make a huge improvement wheres the only significant improvement from Red Bull would be to match Mercedes and Ferrari.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
McLaren because they have far more room to improve.


This pretty much nails it!

Yup. McLaren would be hard-pressed not to make a huge improvement wheres the only significant improvement from Red Bull would be to match Mercedes and Ferrari.

Yeah, agreed. McLaren seem to have figured out what made their car so uncompetitive last year, so they will only go forward from here.

RB is only trying to match the top two. Ok, "only" is a bit of an understatement, but there is not much more than they can improve.

Actually, do we know where the Honda sits on the engine pecking order now?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6307
Location: Michigan, USA
Siao7 wrote:
Actually, do we know where the Honda sits on the engine pecking order now?

Probably about on par with Renault, maybe a little faster in qualifying. Both Honda and Renault are promising huge upgrades for 2019, so where they are now is less important than how well - and if - both of those upgrades work.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 111
IMO , Red Bull have won races pretty much every season. This big question is the Honda engines. I do feel reliability is a big issue here?. Could win between 2-4 races this year ?.

For me, has to be McLaren. Got 2 good drivers in the team and they can only move forward IMO


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2972
Location: UK
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 897
Location: UK
So out of interest what about the other underperforming team undergoing a revamp.......Renault.......where do they sit in this hierarchy?
Or perhaps better described as a lowerarchy?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Actually, do we know where the Honda sits on the engine pecking order now?

Probably about on par with Renault, maybe a little faster in qualifying. Both Honda and Renault are promising huge upgrades for 2019, so where they are now is less important than how well - and if - both of those upgrades work.


Ah, thank you. If Renault could get a good chassis, it would be fun to watch the two old team mates fighting each other. Max recently said that Daniel was a fun guy, but he won't miss him. Maybe not all was rosy in the RB garage there, so there's that


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 24104
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

McLaren also messed up with their gear ratios at the start of the year which really compromised them, but the wonderful rules we have meant that they couldn't do anything about it for the entire year. And they introduced a number of ideas which were subsequently snapped up by the competition, so clearly they're not short on ingenuity. One hopes that the management restructure might finally allow them to put all their assets into play.

Agree that McLaren have the resources. I think this year is critical for them. Last year they could claim a pass of sorts by having to field a car which had to be heavily adapted due to a change in their PU supplier. This time they've had arguably the biggest lead time of anybody in introducing their new contender (as I'm sure I read somewhere they realised very early on that they couldn't make a swan out of the pig's ear they'd cobbled together for 2018, so they focused on development work for 2019 instead), so they really should make some noticeable progress.

Against all that, it has to be said, Alonso leaving suggests that he doesn't have strong faith that 2019 will be a great year, or else he'll probably have stayed, so while I expect them to be better than 2018 I don't see them nipping at the heels of the front runners.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

McLaren also messed up with their gear ratios at the start of the year which really compromised them, but the wonderful rules we have meant that they couldn't do anything about it for the entire year. And they introduced a number of ideas which were subsequently snapped up by the competition, so clearly they're not short on ingenuity. One hopes that the management restructure might finally allow them to put all their assets into play.

Agree that McLaren have the resources. I think this year is critical for them. Last year they could claim a pass of sorts by having to field a car which had to be heavily adapted due to a change in their PU supplier. This time they've had arguably the biggest lead time of anybody in introducing their new contender (as I'm sure I read somewhere they realised very early on that they couldn't make a swan out of the pig's ear they'd cobbled together for 2018, so they focused on development work for 2019 instead), so they really should make some noticeable progress.

Against all that, it has to be said, Alonso leaving suggests that he doesn't have strong faith that 2019 will be a great year, or else he'll probably have stayed, so while I expect them to be better than 2018 I don't see them nipping at the heels of the front runners.


I think realistically they would hope to beat the best of the rest. The cherry would be to challenge RB. As for the front runners, I can't see them catching them this year. Even if they nails the car, they'd still need a top driver, I'm not sure that they have that just yet.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
Noni wrote:
IMO , Red Bull have won races pretty much every season. This big question is the Honda engines. I do feel reliability is a big issue here?. Could win between 2-4 races this year ?.

For me, has to be McLaren. Got 2 good drivers in the team and they can only move forward IMO

I feel the same about Red Bull, in respect to McLaren the drivers can only be seen as a backwards step in comparison to Alonso.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
Option or Prime wrote:
So out of interest what about the other underperforming team undergoing a revamp.......Renault.......where do they sit in this hierarchy?
Or perhaps better described as a lowerarchy?

I think Renault are on a slow upward trajectory and will be 4th best car also helped by having stronger drivers, the 2 closest teams in terms of car performance to them will probably be Racing Point and Haas but Racing Point will be dragged back by Stroll whilst Haas has the misfiring duo of Grosjean and Kmag.

I forgot to mention Sauber but the same again their driver line up isn't as strong.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

When you have not delivered a front running car for the last 6 years I would beg to differ.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

When you have not delivered a front running car for the last 6 years I would beg to differ.


Are you serious or just pulling my leg? Just above you wrote that you think Renault will be 4th best team. They haven't delivered a front running car since 2006, bar a couple of races in 2008. So why do you beg to differ for Macca? It does not compute...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 8071
Difficult to put a fair value on improvement when a .5 jump for Mclaren will move them up a considerable step and a .5 gain for RBR will probably make little difference to the finishing position at the end of the year. I expect Mclaren to finish higher up the table than they did this year, but doubt if RBR will even though they could make far more progress


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2972
Location: UK
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

I thought the mid-season reshuffle of their engineering team spoke volumes about their underlying issues. To me it was an admission that their problems for the past few years were not solely because of Honda and that the car had not been up to scratch either. Not even the notoriously trigger-happy Ferrari management would remove their technical director because a mistake on the car resulted in a poor start to a season.

Renault have been investing heavily in their team and have recruited a lot of new staff, and the acquisition of Ricciardo (as well as retaining Hulkenberg) gives them a stronger driver line-up than McLaren. I don't see McLaren beating them this year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:45 am
Posts: 631
Location: Michigan, USA
I expect Red Bull to remain about where they are in the pecking order, perhaps even taking a step back if this year's Honda engine doesn't turn out to be as good as they hope. To take a real step forward, they'd have to be fighting for the title, and I don't see that heppning. I could be surprised, of course!

McLaren, on the other hand, have a lot of possible improvement ahead of them, and if the main thing wrong with last year's car was indeed something that they knew about but couldn't change yet, they would be expected to make a notable improvement. I expect them to improve at least a little bit, possibly a lot, so my guess is for McLaren on this.

_________________
Image
Pick 10: 1 win, 8 podiums | 2016: 22nd | 2017: 21st | 2018: 3rd |
[size=85]Top Three: 9 wins, 26 podiums | 2016: 9th [6th] | 2017: 16th [6th] | 2018: 4th [4th] |


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
j man wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

I thought the mid-season reshuffle of their engineering team spoke volumes about their underlying issues. To me it was an admission that their problems for the past few years were not solely because of Honda and that the car had not been up to scratch either. Not even the notoriously trigger-happy Ferrari management would remove their technical director because a mistake on the car resulted in a poor start to a season.

Renault have been investing heavily in their team and have recruited a lot of new staff, and the acquisition of Ricciardo (as well as retaining Hulkenberg) gives them a stronger driver line-up than McLaren. I don't see McLaren beating them this year.


Oh yeah, you are spot on, the Honda problems were only smoke and mirrors, blaming the engine to cover their own underlying issues. All I am saying is that they have the technical expertise and money to turn this around. Renault now have a top driver, a proven GP winner, so they will be formidable if they get it right. I do hope so, I'd like to see Ricciardo getting the podiums with Renault and getting into RB's eye!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 897
Location: UK
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
So out of interest what about the other underperforming team undergoing a revamp.......Renault.......where do they sit in this hierarchy?
Or perhaps better described as a lowerarchy?

I think Renault are on a slow upward trajectory and will be 4th best car also helped by having stronger drivers, the 2 closest teams in terms of car performance to them will probably be Racing Point and Haas but Racing Point will be dragged back by Stroll whilst Haas has the misfiring duo of Grosjean and Kmag.

I forgot to mention Sauber but the same again their driver line up isn't as strong.


I find the Renault situation interesting in that its a new PU but based on what didn't work the first time round. Off course the chassis needs to be half decent but they do have, as stated above, a driver with a history of winning some grand prix.

I guess DR is hoping he has made a Hamilton type move when switching from McLaren to Mercedes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

When you have not delivered a front running car for the last 6 years I would beg to differ.


Are you serious or just pulling my leg? Just above you wrote that you think Renault will be 4th best team. They haven't delivered a front running car since 2006, bar a couple of races in 2008. So why do you beg to differ for Macca? It does not compute...

Did I say that Renault will produce a front running car?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
So out of interest what about the other underperforming team undergoing a revamp.......Renault.......where do they sit in this hierarchy?
Or perhaps better described as a lowerarchy?

I think Renault are on a slow upward trajectory and will be 4th best car also helped by having stronger drivers, the 2 closest teams in terms of car performance to them will probably be Racing Point and Haas but Racing Point will be dragged back by Stroll whilst Haas has the misfiring duo of Grosjean and Kmag.

I forgot to mention Sauber but the same again their driver line up isn't as strong.


I find the Renault situation interesting in that its a new PU but based on what didn't work the first time round. Off course the chassis needs to be half decent but they do have, as stated above, a driver with a history of winning some grand prix.

I guess DR is hoping he has made a Hamilton type move when switching from McLaren to Mercedes

Well Hamilton's move was made around the big change of regs in 2014 which meant he basically had to sit out 2013 even though the season was still better than many thought it would be.

Going forward the next big change of regs is supposedly in 2021 which means Ricciardo has to sit out 2 years, I don't really see Renault closing the gap before then but you never know?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6765
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

When you have not delivered a front running car for the last 6 years I would beg to differ.


Are you serious or just pulling my leg? Just above you wrote that you think Renault will be 4th best team. They haven't delivered a front running car since 2006, bar a couple of races in 2008. So why do you beg to differ for Macca? It does not compute...

Did I say that Renault will produce a front running car?

Ok, apologies, I misread it. We were talking about front runners and I thought that's what you were talking about. Sorry for the mix-up


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2972
Location: UK
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
j man wrote:
I voted that they both stay the same.

Red Bull I think will be a little closer to the top two but not quite there to be in the championship hunt. I expect Verstappen to be mixing it with the leaders on a few occasions though.

As far as I'm concerned McLaren firmly demonstrated last year that they do not have the capability or resources to produce a front-running car. The midfield is their place now, and I don't see them showing any improvement on 6th given Renault's general upward trajectory and the amount of money allegedly being poured into Racing Point / Force India or whatever they're called. And of course they don't have Alonso any more.


I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

I thought the mid-season reshuffle of their engineering team spoke volumes about their underlying issues. To me it was an admission that their problems for the past few years were not solely because of Honda and that the car had not been up to scratch either. Not even the notoriously trigger-happy Ferrari management would remove their technical director because a mistake on the car resulted in a poor start to a season.

Renault have been investing heavily in their team and have recruited a lot of new staff, and the acquisition of Ricciardo (as well as retaining Hulkenberg) gives them a stronger driver line-up than McLaren. I don't see McLaren beating them this year.


Oh yeah, you are spot on, the Honda problems were only smoke and mirrors, blaming the engine to cover their own underlying issues. All I am saying is that they have the technical expertise and money to turn this around. Renault now have a top driver, a proven GP winner, so they will be formidable if they get it right. I do hope so, I'd like to see Ricciardo getting the podiums with Renault and getting into RB's eye!

Yes McLaren have at least made the changes needed to turn things around, James Key for instance is an excellent recruitment. These things take time though, and I'm not expecting anything more from them until the planned regulation change in 2021.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:13 pm
Posts: 352
Red Bull are more likely to go backwards than forwards with a new engine. They need to wait until the next rule changes to realistically beat Mercedes, and even then Mercedes and Ferrari will likely still have a better engine.

The other teams need a tie up with BMW or Audi if they want to get competitive at the front.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I am not sure, they made a mistake in the car and without testing they were forced to play catch up. Ferrari, a front-runner, got it also wrong mid season and were forced to revert to the older spec car. It happens.

I'd think that from the F1-B, McLaren is the one team that does have the money, pedigree, capability and resources to produce a front running car.

When you have not delivered a front running car for the last 6 years I would beg to differ.


Are you serious or just pulling my leg? Just above you wrote that you think Renault will be 4th best team. They haven't delivered a front running car since 2006, bar a couple of races in 2008. So why do you beg to differ for Macca? It does not compute...

Did I say that Renault will produce a front running car?

Ok, apologies, I misread it. We were talking about front runners and I thought that's what you were talking about. Sorry for the mix-up

That's alright I can be guilty of that myself. :thumbup:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 29075
pendulumeffect wrote:
Red Bull are more likely to go backwards than forwards with a new engine. They need to wait until the next rule changes to realistically beat Mercedes, and even then Mercedes and Ferrari will likely still have a better engine.

The other teams need a tie up with BMW or Audi if they want to get competitive at the front.

I can certainly see unreliability rear it's ugly head.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JN23, pc27b and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group