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 Post subject: Arrivederci Arrivabene
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:37 pm 
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Looks like he's been given the boot. Shame, he came across as one of the more approachable/human Ferrari bosses and would actually engage with the media. Results speak for themselves though - they can't afford to throw away another title like last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46784200


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:48 pm 
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Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.


They did go wrong in their car development last year and had to revert to the "old" car. Something that arguably also contributed to Vettel pushing too hard and making mistakes. You can also argue that Binotto did a stellar job and deserves a promotion.


All I can tell is that politics were always part of the Italian team, so god knows what is truly the reason behind this move.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.

Sorry but everything Ferrari has achieved while he sat on the perch was inspite of him. His greatest accomplishment in racing before landing the TP role was hanging out with the team for years ensuring the Marlboro branding was prominent enough to be felt by those wanting to see it. While he was cordial and seemingly nice enough, he was never the right person for the job, as he has zero engineering experience from which to be able to make informed decisions that help the team in any way.
This is a league where having a well experienced and QUALIFIED individual can make all the difference when things are close and last minute decisions can cost teams dearly.
I wouldn’t want someone who’s mind is likely more focused on when he can get a drag off a cancer stick than trying to rack his brain struggling to understand why engineers are making all these decisions all around you.
That’s what I got from watching him and Ferrari the last 4 years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:05 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.

Sorry but everything Ferrari has achieved while he sat on the perch was inspite of him. His greatest accomplishment in racing before landing the TP role was hanging out with the team for years ensuring the Marlboro branding was prominent enough to be felt by those wanting to see it. While he was cordial and seemingly nice enough, he was never the right person for the job, as he has zero engineering experience from which to be able to make informed decisions that help the team in any way.
This is a league where having a well experienced and QUALIFIED individual can make all the difference when things are close and last minute decisions can cost teams dearly.
I wouldn’t want someone who’s mind is likely more focused on when he can get a drag off a cancer stick than trying to rack his brain struggling to understand why engineers are making all these decisions all around you.
That’s what I got from watching him and Ferrari the last 4 years.

AFAIAA Briatore had even less experience than Arrivabene before he took over the helm at Benetton and it didn't seem to stop him winning things.

A good leader inspires others but doesn't necessarily have to have an engineering background. It helps, of course, but I don't agree it's absolutely necessary


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:01 pm 
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I don't quite understand this one. The team went forwards every year he was in charge and I feel that in both engineering and operational terms they surpassed Mercedes this year, and the championship only eluded them because of a few individual errors by Vettel. I fear the old Ferrari internal politics have reared their ugly head again - the BBC article has alluded to a power struggle between Binotto and Arrivabene to fill the void left by Sergio Marchionne - and that this could undo the strong progress that has been made over the past few years.

Being a good team principal requires a lot more than just being a good engineer. Let's see if Binotto is up to the task.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:15 pm 
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j man wrote:
I don't quite understand this one. The team went forwards every year he was in charge and I feel that in both engineering and operational terms they surpassed Mercedes this year, and the championship only eluded them because of a few individual errors by Vettel. I fear the old Ferrari internal politics have reared their ugly head again - the BBC article has alluded to a power struggle between Binotto and Arrivabene to fill the void left by Sergio Marchionne - and that this could undo the strong progress that has been made over the past few years.

Being a good team principal requires a lot more than just being a good engineer. Let's see if Binotto is up to the task.

I have to agree with you for the most part here. This seems really strange considering the very obvious progress they have made year-on-year under Arrivabene. Not sure why you would break things up considering they have risen back to the top in F1 and just needed better execution (particularly on the part of Vettel) to win the titles last year.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Ferrari love a power struggle, but a change of leadership with a new season so close is an interesting choice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:32 pm 
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My question is whether 2019 will now be a "rebuilding" year, or can Binotto hit the ground running with Team Red?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:39 pm 
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I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:43 pm 
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TedStriker wrote:
Looks like he's been given the boot. Shame, he came across as one of the more approachable/human Ferrari bosses and would actually engage with the media. Results speak for themselves though - they can't afford to throw away another title like last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46784200


No very much the opposite. He basically shut down all media access to Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:25 pm 
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I'm not sure this is a response to the drop off in the second half of the season personally. There were rumours around earlier this year (in the summer I think) that he was going to go and manage a football team, Juventus or Inter Milan IIRC, so I think his leaving may have been on the cards for a while.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Arrivabene never struck me as the kind of guy who would inspire others to produce their very best, although I can easily picture him putting the fear of god into his under-performing underlings. Ferrari are now going to try putting an engineer in charge of their race team, rather than a sinister looking tobacconist who looks like he knows where the bodies are buried. It’s a crazy idea, but it might just work.

Good luck to Binotto, I hope he can help steer his team to success and avoid yet another boring season of Mercedes utter dominance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:59 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.
Monza is a very poor example of a bad decision by the team principal. Vettel's start wasn't good enough, followed by poor defence of his second place against Hamilton, followed by a spin that put all the weight of expectation on his team-mate. I can imagine how a team order going into turn 1 could have worked out even worse than what eventually came their way as a result, and I'm sure you can too.
I will gladly admit I'm opposed to team orders as it is, but I was happy that the shine was taken off Hamilton's win by the Mercedes use of one.

This is not to say Arrivabene didn't make mistakes as team principal, but I can't say I could point at a definite one just like that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:33 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.

Sorry but everything Ferrari has achieved while he sat on the perch was inspite of him. His greatest accomplishment in racing before landing the TP role was hanging out with the team for years ensuring the Marlboro branding was prominent enough to be felt by those wanting to see it. While he was cordial and seemingly nice enough, he was never the right person for the job, as he has zero engineering experience from which to be able to make informed decisions that help the team in any way.
This is a league where having a well experienced and QUALIFIED individual can make all the difference when things are close and last minute decisions can cost teams dearly.
I wouldn’t want someone who’s mind is likely more focused on when he can get a drag off a cancer stick than trying to rack his brain struggling to understand why engineers are making all these decisions all around you.
That’s what I got from watching him and Ferrari the last 4 years.

AFAIAA Briatore had even less experience than Arrivabene before he took over the helm at Benetton and it didn't seem to stop him winning things.

A good leader inspires others but doesn't necessarily have to have an engineering background. It helps, of course, but I don't agree it's absolutely necessary

Yes; BUT!…

Briatore had tons of experience leading teams of personnel and has stated publicly that his area of expertise is in being able to identify peoples' strong suits, and then knowing how and who to delegate to, and how much responsibility an individual can handle. He's also cut throat in knowing when someone isn't working out and wont hesitate to terminate them and find a more fitting replacement.. Arrivabene onthe other hand was a marketing manager who's sole job role was to peddle cancer sticks and NOTHING more until he was appointed head of F1 sponsorship committee, where he schmoozed Ferrari for several years, hanging around in the background and SOMEHOW, after NEVER being an actual Ferrari employee in any capacity, was appointed Head of Ferrari F1 Operations.

Nothing more than political nonsense, rather than promoting an appropriate person. Mattiacci was never given a fair chance and he worked his but off to rise through the ranks of Ferrari, and the switch came literally from out of nowhere, which again reeks of political BS.

The reality IS that all the success Ferrari have enjoyed since Arrivabene was appointed TP was indeed thanks solely to EVERYTHING Mattiacci did in his extremely short tenure at the helm. Mattiacci knew what he was doing and the results quite clearly reflect that, but he wasn't up for Ecclestone's BS and political games and wanted only to do what was right for his team and the sport as a whole. Mattiacci is a man of integrity and has zero interest in brown nosing and he preferred to let his hard work speak for itself, and Marchionne didn't like that about him and decided to replace him with someone he knew would play ball and make nice with people instead of do things the right way and get "expletive" done!

It was Mattiacci who pushed to ease engine regulations because of the disparity in performance between all the manufacturers and though he was met with resistance, eventually people realized he was 100% correct and now we have MUCH more competitive racing, yet he isn't even in F1 any longer. And Arrivabene's contribution(s) to Ferrari and the sport have been what exactly??!?!?

Hence why I said Ferrari have enjoyed success in spite of him.


Binotto is one who has been with Ferrari for a VERY long time and has worked his way through the ranks of the F1 operation and has in-depth knowledge of the entire program, which makes him far more fitting for the job, and IMPO, has much more to do with Ferrari's success than Arrivabene, being as he led the engine development team. Hopefully he does an excellent job and helps propel the team even further forward.

Good luck to him.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:39 am 
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I'm surprised by this... and not surprised TBH. would have thought they'd make the change sooner than this though

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:27 am 
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Strange and sad decision for me. After taking over from Domenicali (I won't count Mattiacci since he was a hatchet man, not given a chance to make a difference) - the difference has been night and day. My only gripe with him is that he hanged for so long to keep Kimi in the team and that he didn't realize Vettel is not bringing the title home unless Ferrari have consistently the best car on the grid with some margin.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TedStriker wrote:
Looks like he's been given the boot. Shame, he came across as one of the more approachable/human Ferrari bosses and would actually engage with the media. Results speak for themselves though - they can't afford to throw away another title like last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46784200


No very much the opposite. He basically shut down all media access to Ferrari.


Yeah I agree. This article makes it sound like he was ruling with an iron fist:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... sgEuE.html

They mention rule by fear. I can believe it


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 pm 
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TedStriker wrote:
Looks like he's been given the boot. Shame, he came across as one of the more approachable/human Ferrari bosses and would actually engage with the media. Results speak for themselves though - they can't afford to throw away another title like last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46784200

I thought it was Arrivabene who actually instigated the press shut out also he wouldn't talk after a bad race for Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.


They did go wrong in their car development last year and had to revert to the "old" car. Something that arguably also contributed to Vettel pushing too hard and making mistakes. You can also argue that Binotto did a stellar job and deserves a promotion.


All I can tell is that politics were always part of the Italian team, so god knows what is truly the reason behind this move.

Vettel was making mistakes before that even happened, that's why he was trailing in the WDC rather than leading it.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.

Sorry but everything Ferrari has achieved while he sat on the perch was inspite of him. His greatest accomplishment in racing before landing the TP role was hanging out with the team for years ensuring the Marlboro branding was prominent enough to be felt by those wanting to see it. While he was cordial and seemingly nice enough, he was never the right person for the job, as he has zero engineering experience from which to be able to make informed decisions that help the team in any way.
This is a league where having a well experienced and QUALIFIED individual can make all the difference when things are close and last minute decisions can cost teams dearly.
I wouldn’t want someone who’s mind is likely more focused on when he can get a drag off a cancer stick than trying to rack his brain struggling to understand why engineers are making all these decisions all around you.
That’s what I got from watching him and Ferrari the last 4 years.

AFAIAA Briatore had even less experience than Arrivabene before he took over the helm at Benetton and it didn't seem to stop him winning things.

A good leader inspires others but doesn't necessarily have to have an engineering background. It helps, of course, but I don't agree it's absolutely necessary

Also Wolff is more of a marketing man and not an engineer.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.


They did go wrong in their car development last year and had to revert to the "old" car. Something that arguably also contributed to Vettel pushing too hard and making mistakes. You can also argue that Binotto did a stellar job and deserves a promotion.


All I can tell is that politics were always part of the Italian team, so god knows what is truly the reason behind this move.

Vettel was making mistakes before that even happened, that's why he was trailing in the WDC rather than leading it.


"arguably also contributed"


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.
Monza is a very poor example of a bad decision by the team principal. Vettel's start wasn't good enough, followed by poor defence of his second place against Hamilton, followed by a spin that put all the weight of expectation on his team-mate. I can imagine how a team order going into turn 1 could have worked out even worse than what eventually came their way as a result, and I'm sure you can too.
I will gladly admit I'm opposed to team orders as it is, but I was happy that the shine was taken off Hamilton's win by the Mercedes use of one.

This is not to say Arrivabene didn't make mistakes as team principal, but I can't say I could point at a definite one just like that.


Do you even remember vettel’s reaction and words on the radio after he was told Kimi was on pole?
What happened at the start and in the race doesn’t really matter. The damage was done on Saturday when Kimi was allowed to get the tow from Seb and steal pole. That should have never happened. If Seb got pole with kimi in p2 it is pretty much guaranteed he wins that race.

As far as you somehow being pleased that Mercedes used team orders to help Hamilton I think it is quite petty. Hamilton’s season is not going to be remembered for team orders. He did more than enough in most people’s eyes to show that he was the deserved champion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:32 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.
Monza is a very poor example of a bad decision by the team principal. Vettel's start wasn't good enough, followed by poor defence of his second place against Hamilton, followed by a spin that put all the weight of expectation on his team-mate. I can imagine how a team order going into turn 1 could have worked out even worse than what eventually came their way as a result, and I'm sure you can too.
I will gladly admit I'm opposed to team orders as it is, but I was happy that the shine was taken off Hamilton's win by the Mercedes use of one.

This is not to say Arrivabene didn't make mistakes as team principal, but I can't say I could point at a definite one just like that.


Do you even remember vettel’s reaction and words on the radio after he was told Kimi was on pole?
What happened at the start and in the race doesn’t really matter. The damage was done on Saturday when Kimi was allowed to get the tow from Seb and steal pole. That should have never happened. If Seb got pole with kimi in p2 it is pretty much guaranteed he wins that race.

As far as you somehow being pleased that Mercedes used team orders to help Hamilton I think it is quite petty. Hamilton’s season is not going to be remembered for team orders. He did more than enough in most people’s eyes to show that he was the deserved champion.


I think Fiki is happy that a race win through TO was a bit blemished, not this specific win. TO are unnecessary most times, hell remember Austria 2002 outrage when TO were legal!

Hamilton has benefited from team orders at least twice this year from memory and I can even remember the race from Bahrain 2017 when it was twice in one race (he started from pole!). Poor Bottas even said he was expecting the team orders in the Russian GP I think. I can only imagine Webber's reaction if he was in his shoes.

This is what I think Fiki is opposing, the TO, he has always been vocal against them through the years. I certainly did not see him downgrading Hamilton's year or even remotely suggesting that Hamilton is not a deserved champion, no idea why you are getting into all of that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:07 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.
Monza is a very poor example of a bad decision by the team principal. Vettel's start wasn't good enough, followed by poor defence of his second place against Hamilton, followed by a spin that put all the weight of expectation on his team-mate. I can imagine how a team order going into turn 1 could have worked out even worse than what eventually came their way as a result, and I'm sure you can too.
I will gladly admit I'm opposed to team orders as it is, but I was happy that the shine was taken off Hamilton's win by the Mercedes use of one.

This is not to say Arrivabene didn't make mistakes as team principal, but I can't say I could point at a definite one just like that.


Do you even remember vettel’s reaction and words on the radio after he was told Kimi was on pole?
What happened at the start and in the race doesn’t really matter. The damage was done on Saturday when Kimi was allowed to get the tow from Seb and steal pole. That should have never happened. If Seb got pole with kimi in p2 it is pretty much guaranteed he wins that race.

As far as you somehow being pleased that Mercedes used team orders to help Hamilton I think it is quite petty. Hamilton’s season is not going to be remembered for team orders. He did more than enough in most people’s eyes to show that he was the deserved champion.
I didn't off the top of my head remember what Vettel said after having lost pole position, but I looked it up. He refused to explain his comment, and added that he lost pole position because his lap was too untidy. I take it you know untidiness can also ruin your hopes if you do get the chance of getting a tow - and yes, I do acknowledge it was apparently not Räikkönen's turn to enjoy that privilege.

So if you think that what happened at the start doesn't really matter, and Vettel didn't think he lost pole position because of the missed tow opportunity, then may I conclude you agree Monza wasn't the best example of a mistake by Arrivabene?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:26 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.
Monza is a very poor example of a bad decision by the team principal. Vettel's start wasn't good enough, followed by poor defence of his second place against Hamilton, followed by a spin that put all the weight of expectation on his team-mate. I can imagine how a team order going into turn 1 could have worked out even worse than what eventually came their way as a result, and I'm sure you can too.
I will gladly admit I'm opposed to team orders as it is, but I was happy that the shine was taken off Hamilton's win by the Mercedes use of one.

This is not to say Arrivabene didn't make mistakes as team principal, but I can't say I could point at a definite one just like that.


Do you even remember vettel’s reaction and words on the radio after he was told Kimi was on pole?
What happened at the start and in the race doesn’t really matter. The damage was done on Saturday when Kimi was allowed to get the tow from Seb and steal pole. That should have never happened. If Seb got pole with kimi in p2 it is pretty much guaranteed he wins that race.

As far as you somehow being pleased that Mercedes used team orders to help Hamilton I think it is quite petty. Hamilton’s season is not going to be remembered for team orders. He did more than enough in most people’s eyes to show that he was the deserved champion.


I think Fiki is happy that a race win through TO was a bit blemished, not this specific win. TO are unnecessary most times, hell remember Austria 2002 outrage when TO were legal!

Hamilton has benefited from team orders at least twice this year from memory and I can even remember the race from Bahrain 2017 when it was twice in one race (he started from pole!). Poor Bottas even said he was expecting the team orders in the Russian GP I think. I can only imagine Webber's reaction if he was in his shoes.

This is what I think Fiki is opposing, the TO, he has always been vocal against them through the years. I certainly did not see him downgrading Hamilton's year or even remotely suggesting that Hamilton is not a deserved champion, no idea why you are getting into all of that.
I never thought I would consider the existence of betting on F1 as one of the grounds on which to consider team orders as unwanted, but it is in fact one way in which those defending them can try to view them from a different perspective. My personal view is that even in a sport that disguises itself as a business, there should be room for sportsmanship and even the Olympic ideal.

Even if I put my driver preference for Kimi aside, I believe Vettel would probably be the last person to say Räikkönen has been given unfair advantage in their tenure at Ferrari together. I would have loved a few more wins for Kimi, when the car suited him more, but there is more to sport than just winning.

Hamilton is the worthy 2018 champion, just as Vettel would have been, had he not made too many errors. Why he made them is something he himself knows better than any of us on the good old Planet F1 forum.


As I read the articles on Arrivabene's dismissal, I can't help but wonder what the true reasons behind it are.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:28 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
Strange and sad decision for me. After taking over from Domenicali (I won't count Mattiacci since he was a hatchet man, not given a chance to make a difference) - the difference has been night and day. My only gripe with him is that he hanged for so long to keep Kimi in the team and that he didn't realize Vettel is not bringing the title home unless Ferrari have consistently the best car on the grid with some margin.

That is the most factually incorrect statement in this entire thread.

The successes Ferrari have enjoyed while Arrivabene was at the helm was entirely thanks to Mattiacci's work in his extremely short tenure as Team Principal.
ALL the moves he made, which were questioned beared fruit and Arrivabene was there to take credit for it, when in fact he didn't do much if anything in his time with the team. If I were on Ferrari's board I would be lobbying for the company to make a public apology and ask him to return with more pay and assurances to remain with the company even after F1 because the man has proven himself to be one of the most valuable assets in the companies history, and his efforts in F1, while vastly trumping his prior accomplishments with the company publicly, are a far cry from what he accomplished before ever being called up to run F1 operations.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:30 pm 
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Gentlemen… We made the front page on PF1! :nod:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/uninspiri ... r-ferrari/

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:55 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Gentlemen… We made the front page on PF1! :nod:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/uninspiri ... r-ferrari/


Nice!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:21 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Gentlemen… We made the front page on PF1! :nod:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/uninspiri ... r-ferrari/
About time too! :-D Where are the days when you would have said 'ladies and gentlemen'?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:01 pm 
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There are no ladies in this thread sir. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:14 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I mean, Ferrari did improve under him, but while he was at the helm there were numerous questionable decisions made on various race weekends. I am afraid that falls on him. Binotto was always the guy people said was responsible for Ferrari's uprising anyway. But for example, Kimi getting pole in Monza and hence being allowed to win, is not the way Ferrari usually operates considering the championship was very much alive and well at that point. That in my opinion may have been one of the major reasons why he was let go.
Monza is a very poor example of a bad decision by the team principal. Vettel's start wasn't good enough, followed by poor defence of his second place against Hamilton, followed by a spin that put all the weight of expectation on his team-mate. I can imagine how a team order going into turn 1 could have worked out even worse than what eventually came their way as a result, and I'm sure you can too.
I will gladly admit I'm opposed to team orders as it is, but I was happy that the shine was taken off Hamilton's win by the Mercedes use of one.

This is not to say Arrivabene didn't make mistakes as team principal, but I can't say I could point at a definite one just like that.


Do you even remember vettel’s reaction and words on the radio after he was told Kimi was on pole?
What happened at the start and in the race doesn’t really matter. The damage was done on Saturday when Kimi was allowed to get the tow from Seb and steal pole. That should have never happened. If Seb got pole with kimi in p2 it is pretty much guaranteed he wins that race.



Just that the difference was bigger than the two effect. Vettel would not have gotten pole anyway.

And I am quite confident that the order in the race would have been reversed to Vettel's favor - either on merit or on TO - if he did not cause the collision with Hamilton.

On-to-the-topic: a power struggle between Arrivabene and Binotto was long reported. Now, obviously, Binotto won. Is Vettel an Arrivabene-man or a Binotto-man?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:41 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Strange and sad decision for me. After taking over from Domenicali (I won't count Mattiacci since he was a hatchet man, not given a chance to make a difference) - the difference has been night and day. My only gripe with him is that he hanged for so long to keep Kimi in the team and that he didn't realize Vettel is not bringing the title home unless Ferrari have consistently the best car on the grid with some margin.

That is the most factually incorrect statement in this entire thread.

The successes Ferrari have enjoyed while Arrivabene was at the helm was entirely thanks to Mattiacci's work in his extremely short tenure as Team Principal.
ALL the moves he made, which were questioned beared fruit and Arrivabene was there to take credit for it, when in fact he didn't do much if anything in his time with the team. If I were on Ferrari's board I would be lobbying for the company to make a public apology and ask him to return with more pay and assurances to remain with the company even after F1 because the man has proven himself to be one of the most valuable assets in the companies history, and his efforts in F1, while vastly trumping his prior accomplishments with the company publicly, are a far cry from what he accomplished before ever being called up to run F1 operations.


None of what you wrote is anything to do with the sentence in bold? It's pretty clear Mattiacci was appointed as a hatchet man. Many called it at the time. He performed that roll extremely well as you say.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:13 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Gentlemen… We made the front page on PF1! :nod:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/uninspiri ... r-ferrari/

Bet ya don't get paid, probably should though! Congrats.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:35 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.


They did go wrong in their car development last year and had to revert to the "old" car. Something that arguably also contributed to Vettel pushing too hard and making mistakes. You can also argue that Binotto did a stellar job and deserves a promotion.


All I can tell is that politics were always part of the Italian team, so god knows what is truly the reason behind this move.

Vettel was making mistakes before that even happened, that's why he was trailing in the WDC rather than leading it.


"arguably also contributed"

...after the Singapore updates, he had the best car before then but was making mistakes.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:47 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Strange and sad decision for me. After taking over from Domenicali (I won't count Mattiacci since he was a hatchet man, not given a chance to make a difference) - the difference has been night and day. My only gripe with him is that he hanged for so long to keep Kimi in the team and that he didn't realize Vettel is not bringing the title home unless Ferrari have consistently the best car on the grid with some margin.

That is the most factually incorrect statement in this entire thread.

The successes Ferrari have enjoyed while Arrivabene was at the helm was entirely thanks to Mattiacci's work in his extremely short tenure as Team Principal.
ALL the moves he made, which were questioned beared fruit and Arrivabene was there to take credit for it, when in fact he didn't do much if anything in his time with the team. If I were on Ferrari's board I would be lobbying for the company to make a public apology and ask him to return with more pay and assurances to remain with the company even after F1 because the man has proven himself to be one of the most valuable assets in the companies history, and his efforts in F1, while vastly trumping his prior accomplishments with the company publicly, are a far cry from what he accomplished before ever being called up to run F1 operations.


Entirely thanks to Mattiacci? Talk about factually incorrect.

Anyway, I "skipped" Mattiacci as a TP for Ferrari because he was not really there to lead Ferrari to success, his job was to give the foundations for the next TP. Letting go so many people does not make him popular for the employees who are staying and that was my entire point.

On this topic, I'm guessing "sacrificing" Mattiacci was Ferrari internal politics at their finest. You move one of your top top guys within the company in order to set him up for the way out. But I guess that's besides the point as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Results are he took them from midfield in 2014 (?) to the best overall car (speed and reliability) in 2018. He can’t be held responsible for driver errors which was the big difference.

His biggest mistake was probably keeping Kimi on far too long, they might have won a constructors if they brought in Ricciardo or similar.


They did go wrong in their car development last year and had to revert to the "old" car. Something that arguably also contributed to Vettel pushing too hard and making mistakes. You can also argue that Binotto did a stellar job and deserves a promotion.


All I can tell is that politics were always part of the Italian team, so god knows what is truly the reason behind this move.

Vettel was making mistakes before that even happened, that's why he was trailing in the WDC rather than leading it.


"arguably also contributed"

...after the Singapore updates, he had the best car before then but was making mistakes.

I did not say that all of his mistakes were because of that, it ALSO contributed. Do not worry, I did not try to devalue Hamilton's year


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:19 pm 
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VDV23 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Strange and sad decision for me. After taking over from Domenicali (I won't count Mattiacci since he was a hatchet man, not given a chance to make a difference) - the difference has been night and day. My only gripe with him is that he hanged for so long to keep Kimi in the team and that he didn't realize Vettel is not bringing the title home unless Ferrari have consistently the best car on the grid with some margin.

That is the most factually incorrect statement in this entire thread.

The successes Ferrari have enjoyed while Arrivabene was at the helm was entirely thanks to Mattiacci's work in his extremely short tenure as Team Principal.
ALL the moves he made, which were questioned beared fruit and Arrivabene was there to take credit for it, when in fact he didn't do much if anything in his time with the team. If I were on Ferrari's board I would be lobbying for the company to make a public apology and ask him to return with more pay and assurances to remain with the company even after F1 because the man has proven himself to be one of the most valuable assets in the companies history, and his efforts in F1, while vastly trumping his prior accomplishments with the company publicly, are a far cry from what he accomplished before ever being called up to run F1 operations.


Entirely thanks to Mattiacci? Talk about factually incorrect.

Anyway, I "skipped" Mattiacci as a TP for Ferrari because he was not really there to lead Ferrari to success, his job was to give the foundations for the next TP. Letting go so many people does not make him popular for the employees who are staying and that was my entire point.

On this topic, I'm guessing "sacrificing" Mattiacci was Ferrari internal politics at their finest. You move one of your top top guys within the company in order to set him up for the way out. But I guess that's besides the point as well.

Sorry but I am 100% correct.

The thing most people don't understand is that good leaders make the best decisions for a company, regardless of having to cut ties with longstanding personnel, without listening to anyone else. That's what Mattiacci did and how he did it and it proved unpopular with many people, but it in no way does that mean his actions weren't the right ones for Ferrari. It was Mattiacci who signed Vettel away from Red Bull, and he was the one who signed James Allison, and contrary to popular belief, he didn't get rid of as many people ad many assume, and he offered full support to many staff members he felt were paramount to Ferrari's success.

And wouldn't you know it… Ferrari is enjoying success.

And it was also Mattiacci who fought to loosen engine regs so manufacturers can further develop and refine their power units to bridge the gap to Mercedes.


But yeah, I'm factually incorrect.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:53 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
It was Mattiacci who signed Vettel away from Red Bull, and he was the one who signed James Allison...

I think it's debatable how good either of these moves were. Vettel isn't an upgrade on Alonso, and the car didn't really start moving forward dramatically until Allison had left - and since it's continued to get better from 2017 into 2018, I don't think the upward curve can be ascribed to anything Allison did before leaving.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:11 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Strange and sad decision for me. After taking over from Domenicali (I won't count Mattiacci since he was a hatchet man, not given a chance to make a difference) - the difference has been night and day. My only gripe with him is that he hanged for so long to keep Kimi in the team and that he didn't realize Vettel is not bringing the title home unless Ferrari have consistently the best car on the grid with some margin.

That is the most factually incorrect statement in this entire thread.

The successes Ferrari have enjoyed while Arrivabene was at the helm was entirely thanks to Mattiacci's work in his extremely short tenure as Team Principal.
ALL the moves he made, which were questioned beared fruit and Arrivabene was there to take credit for it, when in fact he didn't do much if anything in his time with the team. If I were on Ferrari's board I would be lobbying for the company to make a public apology and ask him to return with more pay and assurances to remain with the company even after F1 because the man has proven himself to be one of the most valuable assets in the companies history, and his efforts in F1, while vastly trumping his prior accomplishments with the company publicly, are a far cry from what he accomplished before ever being called up to run F1 operations.


Entirely thanks to Mattiacci? Talk about factually incorrect.

Anyway, I "skipped" Mattiacci as a TP for Ferrari because he was not really there to lead Ferrari to success, his job was to give the foundations for the next TP. Letting go so many people does not make him popular for the employees who are staying and that was my entire point.

On this topic, I'm guessing "sacrificing" Mattiacci was Ferrari internal politics at their finest. You move one of your top top guys within the company in order to set him up for the way out. But I guess that's besides the point as well.

Sorry but I am 100% correct.

The thing most people don't understand is that good leaders make the best decisions for a company, regardless of having to cut ties with longstanding personnel, without listening to anyone else. That's what Mattiacci did and how he did it and it proved unpopular with many people, but it in no way does that mean his actions weren't the right ones for Ferrari. It was Mattiacci who signed Vettel away from Red Bull, and he was the one who signed James Allison, and contrary to popular belief, he didn't get rid of as many people ad many assume, and he offered full support to many staff members he felt were paramount to Ferrari's success.

And wouldn't you know it… Ferrari is enjoying success.

And it was also Mattiacci who fought to loosen engine regs so manufacturers can further develop and refine their power units to bridge the gap to Mercedes.


But yeah, I'm factually incorrect.

Image


Do you know what a hatchet man is? Mattiacci did a good job but was clearly brought in as a hatchet man.


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