planetf1.com

It is currently Mon May 20, 2019 10:22 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 227
Badgeronimous wrote:
I am quite against a spec series, but I'd bet that a spec gearbox would be 99% of what any gearbox a team could make.

It's a well trodden, and well mastered bit of tech, that probably sees every team do nearly the same thing. Nobody is going to make anything much better than the next team, but I suppose somebody could build a dog.

Tbh, a standard part here makes sense.


Exactly my line of thinking. I’m anti-spec series also, but I wouldn’t object to them bringing back customer cars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 642
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I am quite against a spec series, but I'd bet that a spec gearbox would be 99% of what any gearbox a team could make.

It's a well trodden, and well mastered bit of tech, that probably sees every team do nearly the same thing. Nobody is going to make anything much better than the next team, but I suppose somebody could build a dog.

Tbh, a standard part here makes sense.


Exactly my line of thinking. I’m anti-spec series also, but I wouldn’t object to them bringing back customer cars


Likewise with brakes. I'd bet there is only fractions of a percent between the brakes each team use and the skill is setting them up. Many will probably be buying in something bespoke from a third party, which will be made of exactly the same things as the other teams bespoke brakes.

The wheels as well, could be made spec and nobody would notice. They might even already be.

As could steering wheels - actually something I'd support a lot is a restriction here. Brake balance, fuel/air mixture, maybe allow 5 custom maps, and obviously a radio + drs button!

_________________
I started to compete in real life.
Car 36 Blog - if anyone is interested in how I'm getting on.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6814
Location: Michigan, USA
Badgeronimous wrote:
As could steering wheels - actually something I'd support a lot is a restriction here. Brake balance, fuel/air mixture, maybe allow 5 custom maps, and obviously a radio + drs button!

I'd certainly draw the line before steering wheels. This is one of the most visibly different things between F1 cars as is, and I wouldn't like to see them all looking the same. More practically, that would dramatically reduce the ability of the team to match their steering wheel to the desires of the driver.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7560
Location: Belgium
Badgeronimous wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I am quite against a spec series, but I'd bet that a spec gearbox would be 99% of what any gearbox a team could make.

It's a well trodden, and well mastered bit of tech, that probably sees every team do nearly the same thing. Nobody is going to make anything much better than the next team, but I suppose somebody could build a dog.

Tbh, a standard part here makes sense.


Exactly my line of thinking. I’m anti-spec series also, but I wouldn’t object to them bringing back customer cars


Likewise with brakes. I'd bet there is only fractions of a percent between the brakes each team use and the skill is setting them up. Many will probably be buying in something bespoke from a third party, which will be made of exactly the same things as the other teams bespoke brakes.

The wheels as well, could be made spec and nobody would notice. They might even already be.

As could steering wheels - actually something I'd support a lot is a restriction here. Brake balance, fuel/air mixture, maybe allow 5 custom maps, and obviously a radio + drs button!
"Obviously a radio"? The first thing they should do to make F1 more interesting is to ban the radio altogether, or put all the drivers on a race director frequency only. Making the driver important again, could also remove the "need" for DRS.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25053
I question the need to make anything spec - I don't think it's the right way to go.

The objection to spec gearboxes isn't just about gearboxes; it's about opening the door to accepting spec components which will make it harder to object to others over time. The point about F1 is to allow teams to come up with creative solutions within the regulations. Making it spec will basically turn it into another version of IndyCar. And that's fine if you like IndyCar, not so much if that doesn't float your boat.

There is a cost argument, but I think that could be better applied in other ways. Gearboxes are already highly limited now, anyway and I'd be surprised if any teams are making significant gains or devoting major resources in that area. They already change in milliseconds so what performance advantages are left?

There is a real opportunity for them to lower costs simply by removing the real-time data-driven element of the cars. Make them self-contained, with only the driver able to make limited adjustments, and ban the NASA pitwalls. Obviously not overnight, since the cars are designed with the current levels of support in mind, but they could work towards reducing the level of race-time support over a period of time to much simpler and less labour-intensive levels. Drivers should be able to monitor their own tyre pressures, engine temps etc and make driving decisions on gut feel, rather than have teams of people working out engine management settings and fuel mixes. Teams can always analyse the data after each race and use it to help them in future races, but during a race the drivers should be doing more than following a series of instructions from the pitwall. I reckon that would both make the driver much more important, give an opportunity for mistakes to shake up the field, and reduce complecity and cost without the viewer being negatively inpacted in any way. And the cars wouldn't need to be made spec


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6814
Location: Michigan, USA
Fiki wrote:
Making the driver important again, could also remove the "need" for DRS.

I'd have thought last season would have put to bed this talk of the driver not being important anymore. We had the WDC decided very much by the driver and what he could do in the cockpit, and up and down the field we had drivers making real differences in the standings.

This talk that the pitwall has made the driver unimportant is just that - talk.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
Badgeronimous wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I am quite against a spec series, but I'd bet that a spec gearbox would be 99% of what any gearbox a team could make.

It's a well trodden, and well mastered bit of tech, that probably sees every team do nearly the same thing. Nobody is going to make anything much better than the next team, but I suppose somebody could build a dog.

Tbh, a standard part here makes sense.


Exactly my line of thinking. I’m anti-spec series also, but I wouldn’t object to them bringing back customer cars


Likewise with brakes. I'd bet there is only fractions of a percent between the brakes each team use and the skill is setting them up. Many will probably be buying in something bespoke from a third party, which will be made of exactly the same things as the other teams bespoke brakes.

The wheels as well, could be made spec and nobody would notice. They might even already be.

As could steering wheels - actually something I'd support a lot is a restriction here. Brake balance, fuel/air mixture, maybe allow 5 custom maps, and obviously a radio + drs button!


Pretty much all brakes in F1 are made by Hitco or Brembo, no one is making their own brakes


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:23 pm
Posts: 279
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 227
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1710
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios



Well remember they tried banning the use of radio for use of driving assistance in the not too distance past but apparently the "fans" (read "Teams" IMO), didn't like it so the allowed it again.

I like the thought of getting rid of the radio for anything other than safety reasons, though that in itself is quiet a wide scope which overlaps into the performance area, and general information on things such as lap times & gaps to competitors etc.

_________________
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Spain- 19) - 123 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 315 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6814
Location: Michigan, USA
Jezza13 wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios

Well remember they tried banning the use of radio for use of driving assistance in the not too distance past but apparently the "fans" (read "Teams" IMO), didn't like it so the allowed it again.

I like the thought of getting rid of the radio for anything other than safety reasons, though that in itself is quiet a wide scope which overlaps into the performance area, and general information on things such as lap times & gaps to competitors etc.

I seem to recall we saw no improvement in racing whatsoever while that ban was in place, and we did see a few dangerous incidents that could have been averted. It served as a good example - in my opinion - of why a radio ban is not the answer to any of F1's problems (with the possible exception of an image problem).

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25053
Jezza13 wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios



Well remember they tried banning the use of radio for use of driving assistance in the not too distance past but apparently the "fans" (read "Teams" IMO), didn't like it so the allowed it again.

I like the thought of getting rid of the radio for anything other than safety reasons, though that in itself is quiet a wide scope which overlaps into the performance area, and general information on things such as lap times & gaps to competitors etc.

Yes I think the teams objected and cited safety but IMO that's tenuous.

The problem with the ban was its implementation. The current cars are designed to be constantly monitored by telemetry and just cutting that off could have consequences. But if they planned it properly then they could give the teams plenty of warning, as with any large reg change, and the cars could be designed accordingly.

There's no "need" for telemetry on safety grounds; that's rubbish. The teams don't want to lose control, that's all. There's no practical reason why cars can't be designed to be run with minimal manual adjustment once on the move. This wouldn't preclude teams being able to give strategy advice, but it starts to get a bit silly when they are telling the drivers what speed to take corners in etc. I don't recall the race exactly (Korea?) but one of the most ludicrous examples was when Lotus were telling Grosjean when to use his KERS to overtake and Red Bull were simply relaying that info to Webber so he could save his to block at the same point on the track. That's when you know things have gone too far


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios



Well remember they tried banning the use of radio for use of driving assistance in the not too distance past but apparently the "fans" (read "Teams" IMO), didn't like it so the allowed it again.

I like the thought of getting rid of the radio for anything other than safety reasons, though that in itself is quiet a wide scope which overlaps into the performance area, and general information on things such as lap times & gaps to competitors etc.

Yes I think the teams objected and cited safety but IMO that's tenuous.

The problem with the ban was its implementation. The current cars are designed to be constantly monitored by telemetry and just cutting that off could have consequences. But if they planned it properly then they could give the teams plenty of warning, as with any large reg change, and the cars could be designed accordingly.

There's no "need" for telemetry on safety grounds; that's rubbish. The teams don't want to lose control, that's all. There's no practical reason why cars can't be designed to be run with minimal manual adjustment once on the move. This wouldn't preclude teams being able to give strategy advice, but it starts to get a bit silly when they are telling the drivers what speed to take corners in etc. I don't recall the race exactly (Korea?) but one of the most ludicrous examples was when Lotus were telling Grosjean when to use his KERS to overtake and Red Bull were simply relaying that info to Webber so he could save his to block at the same point on the track. That's when you know things have gone too far


Fully agreed. They can use the steering wheel to replay messages if and only if there it a danger, an issue with the car, overheating or whatever. Coaching the drivers is a moronic thing and I do not think the fans really want to see that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
Jezza13 wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios



Well remember they tried banning the use of radio for use of driving assistance in the not too distance past but apparently the "fans" (read "Teams" IMO), didn't like it so the allowed it again.

I like the thought of getting rid of the radio for anything other than safety reasons, though that in itself is quiet a wide scope which overlaps into the performance area, and general information on things such as lap times & gaps to competitors etc.


In fairness, radio messages are quite hilarious from some drivers, take Kimi's and Fernando's messages over the past few years


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2395
The radio is probably quite important for the 'show'. As it's almost impossible to see the driver these days, it at least gives some connection for the viewer to the human inside the car.

When we talk about 'spec' parts, is it the case that the teams are making the parts to a spec or is it that they want one supplier to make the parts for everyone? The latter would make more sense from a cost argument point of view.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 3089
Location: UK
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
I agree with Fiki, ban the radio altogether! All pit car communication is to be done using pit boards.


Would drivers be able to seem them at the speeds they travel?
I think in this day and age, it would be dangerous for the drivers to take their eye off the road, and try to read a sign.

I agree though, ditch the radios



Well remember they tried banning the use of radio for use of driving assistance in the not too distance past but apparently the "fans" (read "Teams" IMO), didn't like it so the allowed it again.

I like the thought of getting rid of the radio for anything other than safety reasons, though that in itself is quiet a wide scope which overlaps into the performance area, and general information on things such as lap times & gaps to competitors etc.

Yes I think the teams objected and cited safety but IMO that's tenuous.

The problem with the ban was its implementation. The current cars are designed to be constantly monitored by telemetry and just cutting that off could have consequences. But if they planned it properly then they could give the teams plenty of warning, as with any large reg change, and the cars could be designed accordingly.

There's no "need" for telemetry on safety grounds; that's rubbish. The teams don't want to lose control, that's all. There's no practical reason why cars can't be designed to be run with minimal manual adjustment once on the move. This wouldn't preclude teams being able to give strategy advice, but it starts to get a bit silly when they are telling the drivers what speed to take corners in etc. I don't recall the race exactly (Korea?) but one of the most ludicrous examples was when Lotus were telling Grosjean when to use his KERS to overtake and Red Bull were simply relaying that info to Webber so he could save his to block at the same point on the track. That's when you know things have gone too far

Agreed, bringing in the radio ban mid-season without giving the teams any time to properly prepare was pure idiocy. I actually like the idea though. Give the drivers a basic display on the steering wheel showing fuel loads / tyre temps etc and let them manage their own races, it's an important skill they should have. Pit stops can be communicated with pit boards, and any safety warnings can come via the race director.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Common Gearbox 2021
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:46 pm
Posts: 427
dont mind spec stuff personally. dont care about the gearbox etc that have no real influence on the race apart from when they break. although you could argue its always been the case, i think its becoming too much of a technical exercise for manufacturers with a win at all costs mentality. are merc/red bull/ferrari bothered that they bored us to tears with their performance advantage in the recent years. and yes its always gone on but it has always been a problem. generally money talks. its a technical sport but it is sport. dont forget if no one watched or went to races there would be no f1. there are many many parts that could be standardised to give the smaller teams more of a chance and it would only improve f1. for me thats hard to argue against. I love f1 and i enjoy most of the races, but they could make it so so much better and this is just one way.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group