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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:51 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Before you folks shuffle Seb of to another career, just remember that Kimi spent five years at Ferrari as number two to Sebastian after he had won his one championship. During those five years, 2014-2018, Kimi won exactly one race. (US GP in 2018)

Kimi is a different guy. I think Kimi was able to swallow his pride (or perhaps he is just generally more humble to begin with) and didn't seem too bothered by the number 2 role at Ferrari. I don't think Vettel is, at all, of the same mindset. In other words, I don't think Vettel will want to stay if he is behind Charles.

I also don't think Vettel will accept that level of pay cut that Kimi did. Kimi's salary was cut from $40 million to $7 million while at Ferrari. That's a massive pay cut and Vettel will not accept that. Ferrari will not be willing to pay Vettel the way he's being paid now if his teammate actually gets the better of him. For Vettel, if he cannot remain their #1, I don't see how he can remain a Ferrari driver. Not when it's likely that either Hamilton or Verstappen will also be available.


Yeah, Seb might retire or move on, but I don't see Ferrari trying to move him out in the near future. ...at least not directly. If Seb ends up being outqualified on a semi regular basis, then Binoto will start to favor him and Seb will be in a weak place when it comes time to renegotiate his contract.

Seb might end up hanging on and limping along like Fernando ended up doing. Will have to see.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:33 pm 
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I’m trying to make sense of Leclerc’s ultimate speed relative to the rest of the grid.

Last season he battered Ericsson on pure pace, something that competent drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein did not do. Then again, it’s only Ericsson.

This year he’s been up against a proper benchmark, and he’s outqualified Vettel 8 times in a row. Adjusted for reliability in Austria and Germany, that’s still 6 times in a row. That is mighty impressive.

My intuition tells me that he’s very close to Hamilton and Verstappen. Obviously it’s all guesswork, but that’s why I think.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:22 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I’m trying to make sense of Leclerc’s ultimate speed relative to the rest of the grid.

Last season he battered Ericsson on pure pace, something that competent drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein did not do. Then again, it’s only Ericsson.

This year he’s been up against a proper benchmark, and he’s outqualified Vettel 8 times in a row. Adjusted for reliability in Austria and Germany, that’s still 6 times in a row. That is mighty impressive.

My intuition tells me that he’s very close to Hamilton and Verstappen. Obviously it’s all guesswork, but that’s why I think.

My gut feeling is that he's a little bit faster than Ricciardo right now, and not quite as fast as Max or Lewis. But most importantly, he's visibly getting better and better throughout the season. He may be the same age as Max, but I think we need to keep in mind that a) he's still 21, which is still quite young and b) this is his second season. He's not done finding his ultimate level yet, whereas Hamilton definitely is and Max probably is.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I’m trying to make sense of Leclerc’s ultimate speed relative to the rest of the grid.

Last season he battered Ericsson on pure pace, something that competent drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein did not do. Then again, it’s only Ericsson.

This year he’s been up against a proper benchmark, and he’s outqualified Vettel 8 times in a row. Adjusted for reliability in Austria and Germany, that’s still 6 times in a row. That is mighty impressive.

My intuition tells me that he’s very close to Hamilton and Verstappen. Obviously it’s all guesswork, but that’s why I think.

My gut feeling is that he's a little bit faster than Ricciardo right now, and not quite as fast as Max or Lewis. But most importantly, he's visibly getting better and better throughout the season. He may be the same age as Max, but I think we need to keep in mind that a) he's still 21, which is still quite young and b) this is his second season. He's not done finding his ultimate level yet, whereas Hamilton definitely is and Max probably is.

I wouldn't look to disagree with you it's close to how I feel.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:13 pm 
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So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:26 pm 
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Invade wrote:
So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.

I think Charles is now realizing how close he is to the title. He can beat Vettel and Ferrari can produce the fastest car. Having seen and experienced what it is to be able to rip off 4 straight poles; he will be VERY serious about winning the title next year.

I think Charles's first 2 years in F1 have gone very well so far. Sure there have been some mistakes here and there but every driver has those in their first couple of years. What we've seen is that he destroyed the pay-driver-level performer in Ericsson and he has quickly taken the upper-hand against the 4-time WDC in his first year with Ferrari. His outright pace is undeniable. The kid is super-quick. On Saturdays he's up there with the best of them already and that's very impressive because he is in F1 at a time when there are a ton of guys who are very quick over a single lap. During the races it has been a bit more hit and miss. His race pace is generally quite strong but there have been a few rounds where he has lagged behind Seb in race pace noticeably. I'm tempted to chalk that up to experience but let's keep an eye on it. He has also been on (and perhaps over) the limit in his defending both at Silverstone and again at Monza. That's something to keep an eye on as well.

As I already mentioned; he has also made quite a few significant errors both in qualifying and the races. He is not the finished product at all yet and that's the scary part about Charles. It's very easy to compare him to Max because they are the same age and will probably be rivals for the next decade but as others have mentioned, Charles is only scratching the surface of what he will eventually become wheres Max is much further along in his development at this level.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:35 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Yeah, Seb might retire or move on, but I don't see Ferrari trying to move him out in the near future. ...at least not directly. If Seb ends up being outqualified on a semi regular basis, then Binoto will start to favor him and Seb will be in a weak place when it comes time to renegotiate his contract.

Seb might end up hanging on and limping along like Fernando ended up doing. Will have to see.


the biggest difference was that Fernando was not losing to his teammates then. He was upset with the car not being able to win the wdc


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:39 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:

He has also been on (and perhaps over) the limit in his defending both at Silverstone and again at Monza. That's something to keep an eye on as well.

As I already mentioned; he has also made quite a few significant errors both in qualifying and the races. He is not the finished product at all yet and that's the scary part about Charles. It's very easy to compare him to Max because they are the same age and will probably be rivals for the next decade but as others have mentioned, Charles is only scratching the surface of what he will eventually become wheres Max is much further along in his development at this level.


if he wasn't over the limit at Monza, he wouldn't have won.

Leclerc is only in year 2. Max has had 5 years. So there's still room to grow, more for Leclerc


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:42 am 
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Invade wrote:
So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.


imo, it's better to keep the girlfriend. Many drivers were champions, being married or in a relationship. Some even had children and won titles. A balance is always good and helps one destress too by confiding in each other and other ways. Hopefully, he gets another.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:02 am 
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trento wrote:
Invade wrote:
So, apparently Leclerc dumped his now former girlfriend, Giadi Gianni, to dedicate his life, body and soul to Ferrari, as reported by the highly reputable and much venerated Daily Express, Sun, and Daily Star.


imo, it's better to keep the girlfriend. Many drivers were champions, being married or in a relationship. Some even had children and won titles. A balance is always good and helps one destress too by confiding in each other and other ways. Hopefully, he gets another.


Lewis is single and has done ok-ish though!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:20 am 
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Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:49 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.


Yes an odd season. It seemed that every race where a good result was on if the team didn't mess up then the driver would.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:52 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.


That seems to me the biggest difference between Seb and Charles for 2020. Charles has plenty of room for improvement and refining his craft. The only avenue for improvement for Seb is to find a way to limit his screw-ups.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:06 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.


Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:44 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.


Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.


Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.


Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.


Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.


I don't think leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:23 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.


Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.


Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.


I don't think leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.


How big a gap did Vettel pull? Wasn't it like 2 seconds?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:47 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Does anyone else think that Leclerc’s 2 victories are actually a very underwhelming return for his 2019 season?

Let’s review the season for a second:

Bahrain - dominated the whole weekend until that engine problem

Baku - appears to be fastest in Q until he crashed. Then again, Ferrari’s race pace was fairly mediocre.

Austria - lead the whole race until the final 2 laps. Max had more pace, but I do feel that a victory was definitely possible if Ferrari didn’t pit Leclerc so early. It would have minimized Max’s tyre advantage at the end of the race.

Germany - he appeared to be fastest in Q until his car failed. On race day he made his way from 10th to 2nd until he crashed. Anyone could have won on that chaotic day.

Singapore - leading until Vettel undercut him. Ferrari should have probably boxed him first.

Russia - in this mess of a race, Leclerc was the net leader until Vettel retired and caused a SC.

Mexico - there was absolutely no need for Ferrari to switch Leclerc to a 2 stopper when he was leading. It handed the win to Hamilton.

In a perfect season he wins 8 or 9 races. But then again, nobody is perfect. Still, IMO he should have won at least 5 races in 2019, especially considering his 7 pole positions.

I mooted on another thread that Hamilton could have won as many as 9 races in the Ferrari, I would say that both Ferrari drivers underperformed, but in respect to Leclerc I expect him to improve this season.

Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.

The lost wins I was viewing as what both Leclerc and Vettel could have achieved.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Yeah, but I would argue that most of the potential lost wins I listed above weren’t even in Leclerc’s hands.

Bahrain, Singapore, Russia and Mexico was a result of Ferrari’s dumb strategies and mechanical problems.

Austria was arguably strategy too.

Germany was a combination of Ferrari (Saturday) and Leclerc (Sunday). Then again in his defence, a lot of drivers crashed at that corner, including Hamilton.

Only in Baku was Leclerc fully to blame.


Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.


Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.


I don't think leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.


How big a gap did Vettel pull? Wasn't it like 2 seconds?

Soon got to 2, kept slowly increasing up to 4 and a half seconds. I think that quite clearly showed vettel had the edge.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:18 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Vettel may have ignored team orders in Russia (which i think were pointless anyway), but to me he proved he was faster and pulled away from Leclerc. Then Ferrari looked to deliberately do with Vettel what they have previously done with leclerc (similar to Singapore) Pit him too early to result in the strategy working out better for Leclerc. Vettel would have retired anyway but in my opinion, this was a win Vettel deserved over Lelclerc. He almost certainly will have managed it if they pitted him at the right time and he had no issues.


Nah it's not that simple. Leclerc didn't race Vettel into turn 1 as they had an agreement. Hard to know what would happen without that.


I don't think leclerc would have made it much harder. Bottas pretty easily got past both Ferrari's of him in 2017 with no help from them. I think Vettel will have made it anyway.

Even without that, if Vettel had a tow, why wouldn't he use it to his advantage? Otherwise there will have been a bigger chance of there being hamilton between the two. In the end, Vettel got by Leclerc and there was quite a big gap between Leclerc and Hamilton. Vettel got by and extended the gap. Even though I know Vettel didn't follow the team orders, I don't see how what vettel did made anything worse for the team. He took his opportunity and it was still 1 - 2. And he wasn't holding Leclerc up. Hamilton will have been right on Vettel if Vettel didn't pass Leclerc.


How big a gap did Vettel pull? Wasn't it like 2 seconds?

Soon got to 2, kept slowly increasing up to 4 and a half seconds. I think that quite clearly showed vettel had the edge.


Not enough of one to get passed Leclerc if he hadn't passed in turn 1.


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