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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:46 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We also have to remember Lando is sitting next to Sainz, not Alonso so he's going to look a bit better because there isn't someone putting 6/7 cars between them.

Sainz looked quicker in Oz but got borked in quali and DNF'd the race. If Alonso qualified 7th and finishes 6th/7th then Norris looks worse falling back down out of the points when the car was capable.

In Bahrain similar with Sainz looking quicker again and with plenty of cars between them after the opening lap but makes a mistake/gets unlucky depending on your view of the incident and now there's nothing to compare with Lando again. If Alonso's there and makes that early move on Max stick and finishes ahead of Max in 4th say while Lando falls out of the points but recovers to the top 10 but still well behind Alonso then things would start to look a bit worse for him despite not changing a single thing on his end.

That Sainz has had so much misfortune thus far has helped Norris I think. Carlos needs to calm down a bit, he looks like he's got the speed but he seems a bit over eager to show it although I understand why. Lando still looks a raw talent, he had an incredible pass on Gasly in the race and there's some real flashes of big talent but he has generally looked the slower of the pair and fortunately for him there isn't someone as consistent as Alonso getting the most out of the car sitting next to him making him look like he's leaving plenty on the table which is something Stoff had to put up with.

McLaren did say Lando was "a closer match" to Alonso than Stoff was though, hence their decision. And I can't moan about it, I like them both, I just think Stoff had one of the hardest possible situations to walk in on, which is the total opposite for Lando who has a car with no issue, a team with no public expectations anymore and a less quick and consistent team mate to compare to, its nearly perfect.

Sainz to be fair is quite underrated IMO. Verstappen is quite highly regarded and Sainz ran him close when they were teammates in 2015. I highly doubt Alonso would be able to put 6/7 cars between them. Alonso’s strength was in the race not it qualifying. Vandoorne flattered Alonso quite a lot because he simply was never that good. He was so overrated in the juniors it was remarkable. So when he came into F1 with such hype and Alonso smashed him (as some people like myself expected) naturally people took it to mean Alonso was performing near god-like feats.


But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

I agree with pretty much everything Lotus49 said above. Sainz can be quick but his race craft is just not there. He is too often too agressive and destroys his races that way. But Norris is a rookie. His qualifying will improve, I think he will start outqualifying Sainz on merit eventually and has a higher ceiling imo. If you watch his onboards, you will be able to tell that that guy is definitely skilled.

I do agree that Vandoorne was overrated though. I mean, in Formula E he surely isn't turning any heads. Most overrated F1 driver in a while imho.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:50 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We also have to remember Lando is sitting next to Sainz, not Alonso so he's going to look a bit better because there isn't someone putting 6/7 cars between them.

Sainz looked quicker in Oz but got borked in quali and DNF'd the race. If Alonso qualified 7th and finishes 6th/7th then Norris looks worse falling back down out of the points when the car was capable.

In Bahrain similar with Sainz looking quicker again and with plenty of cars between them after the opening lap but makes a mistake/gets unlucky depending on your view of the incident and now there's nothing to compare with Lando again. If Alonso's there and makes that early move on Max stick and finishes ahead of Max in 4th say while Lando falls out of the points but recovers to the top 10 but still well behind Alonso then things would start to look a bit worse for him despite not changing a single thing on his end.

That Sainz has had so much misfortune thus far has helped Norris I think. Carlos needs to calm down a bit, he looks like he's got the speed but he seems a bit over eager to show it although I understand why. Lando still looks a raw talent, he had an incredible pass on Gasly in the race and there's some real flashes of big talent but he has generally looked the slower of the pair and fortunately for him there isn't someone as consistent as Alonso getting the most out of the car sitting next to him making him look like he's leaving plenty on the table which is something Stoff had to put up with.

McLaren did say Lando was "a closer match" to Alonso than Stoff was though, hence their decision. And I can't moan about it, I like them both, I just think Stoff had one of the hardest possible situations to walk in on, which is the total opposite for Lando who has a car with no issue, a team with no public expectations anymore and a less quick and consistent team mate to compare to, its nearly perfect.

Sainz to be fair is quite underrated IMO. Verstappen is quite highly regarded and Sainz ran him close when they were teammates in 2015. I highly doubt Alonso would be able to put 6/7 cars between them. Alonso’s strength was in the race not it qualifying. Vandoorne flattered Alonso quite a lot because he simply was never that good. He was so overrated in the juniors it was remarkable. So when he came into F1 with such hype and Alonso smashed him (as some people like myself expected) naturally people took it to mean Alonso was performing near god-like feats.


Agree about Sainz being underrated but not much else. Sainz had more cars than that between him and Norris in the opening laps of Bahrain and I can't see Alonso falling down the field at the start of either race unless he's had contact so there would've been plenty of cars between them in Australia and Bahrain had he got the most out of the car like last year. (Between Alo and Norris to be clear)

Stoff couldn't handle the aero problem on corner entry and Alonso could. Not that I think he's better than Norris, I believe Macca when they say Lando is closer but I'm just pointing out they couldn't have had a more different situation and this helps with the perception of Lando's start to the year.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:34 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:45 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We also have to remember Lando is sitting next to Sainz, not Alonso so he's going to look a bit better because there isn't someone putting 6/7 cars between them.

Sainz looked quicker in Oz but got borked in quali and DNF'd the race. If Alonso qualified 7th and finishes 6th/7th then Norris looks worse falling back down out of the points when the car was capable.

In Bahrain similar with Sainz looking quicker again and with plenty of cars between them after the opening lap but makes a mistake/gets unlucky depending on your view of the incident and now there's nothing to compare with Lando again. If Alonso's there and makes that early move on Max stick and finishes ahead of Max in 4th say while Lando falls out of the points but recovers to the top 10 but still well behind Alonso then things would start to look a bit worse for him despite not changing a single thing on his end.

That Sainz has had so much misfortune thus far has helped Norris I think. Carlos needs to calm down a bit, he looks like he's got the speed but he seems a bit over eager to show it although I understand why. Lando still looks a raw talent, he had an incredible pass on Gasly in the race and there's some real flashes of big talent but he has generally looked the slower of the pair and fortunately for him there isn't someone as consistent as Alonso getting the most out of the car sitting next to him making him look like he's leaving plenty on the table which is something Stoff had to put up with.

McLaren did say Lando was "a closer match" to Alonso than Stoff was though, hence their decision. And I can't moan about it, I like them both, I just think Stoff had one of the hardest possible situations to walk in on, which is the total opposite for Lando who has a car with no issue, a team with no public expectations anymore and a less quick and consistent team mate to compare to, its nearly perfect.

Sainz to be fair is quite underrated IMO. Verstappen is quite highly regarded and Sainz ran him close when they were teammates in 2015. I highly doubt Alonso would be able to put 6/7 cars between them. Alonso’s strength was in the race not it qualifying. Vandoorne flattered Alonso quite a lot because he simply was never that good. He was so overrated in the juniors it was remarkable. So when he came into F1 with such hype and Alonso smashed him (as some people like myself expected) naturally people took it to mean Alonso was performing near god-like feats.


But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

I agree with pretty much everything Lotus49 said above. Sainz can be quick but his race craft is just not there. He is too often too agressive and destroys his races that way. But Norris is a rookie. His qualifying will improve, I think he will start outqualifying Sainz on merit eventually and has a higher ceiling imo. If you watch his onboards, you will be able to tell that that guy is definitely skilled.

I do agree that Vandoorne was overrated though. I mean, in Formula E he surely isn't turning any heads. Most overrated F1 driver in a while imho.


He didn't. They were pretty much a match for most of the season. Sainz just got off to a bad start.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
We also have to remember Lando is sitting next to Sainz, not Alonso so he's going to look a bit better because there isn't someone putting 6/7 cars between them.

Sainz looked quicker in Oz but got borked in quali and DNF'd the race. If Alonso qualified 7th and finishes 6th/7th then Norris looks worse falling back down out of the points when the car was capable.

In Bahrain similar with Sainz looking quicker again and with plenty of cars between them after the opening lap but makes a mistake/gets unlucky depending on your view of the incident and now there's nothing to compare with Lando again. If Alonso's there and makes that early move on Max stick and finishes ahead of Max in 4th say while Lando falls out of the points but recovers to the top 10 but still well behind Alonso then things would start to look a bit worse for him despite not changing a single thing on his end.

That Sainz has had so much misfortune thus far has helped Norris I think. Carlos needs to calm down a bit, he looks like he's got the speed but he seems a bit over eager to show it although I understand why. Lando still looks a raw talent, he had an incredible pass on Gasly in the race and there's some real flashes of big talent but he has generally looked the slower of the pair and fortunately for him there isn't someone as consistent as Alonso getting the most out of the car sitting next to him making him look like he's leaving plenty on the table which is something Stoff had to put up with.

McLaren did say Lando was "a closer match" to Alonso than Stoff was though, hence their decision. And I can't moan about it, I like them both, I just think Stoff had one of the hardest possible situations to walk in on, which is the total opposite for Lando who has a car with no issue, a team with no public expectations anymore and a less quick and consistent team mate to compare to, its nearly perfect.

Indeed Norris has made a decent start but Sainz has been quicker thus far but unfortunately he got Kubica'd in Australia Q1 and then Verstappened in the Bahrain race, I didn't realise that Norris had shown himself to be quicker than Vandoorne.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.


It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:03 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.


It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.

Yeah Hulk 12-5 at a average of 0.15s.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.

It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.

Yeah Hulk 12-5 at a average of 0.15s.

That's an awfully low bar for domination. I'd say Hulk certainly won the qualifying battle, but 0.15 seconds doesn't strike me as domination. As far as the races, after the first three I make it 4-4 when both finished. That doesn't strike me as domination.

I'm not questioning that Hulk was a little better on the balance of the year, but I don't agree with throwing the term domination on it. If Hulk dominated Sainz after the first three races, then essentially any time you beat a teammate it's domination.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:05 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Leclerc yes, Norris no.


:thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:42 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.


It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.


Points don't get handed out for qualifying.

In terms of performance over a weekend they were pretty even over the year with Hulkenberg having a slight edge.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.


It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.


Points don't get handed out for qualifying.

In terms of performance over a weekend they were pretty even over the year with Hulkenberg having a slight edge.


With the midfield drivers I tend to focus more on qualifying than race finishes. We've seen a lot of times that sometimes starting further behind can be an advantage due to the tire strategy. And race pace is hard to decipher because of traffic. There were many races I'm sure Hulk got screwed with the strategy, and I don't recall Sainz passing him on track on merit ever. Only having qualifying to look at, Hulk beat him and beat him pretty badly. 0.15 does not even paint a true picture imo because a lot of times the gap was well over 2 tenths. So I still maintain my view that Hulk was simply faster and was the better driver by quite a margin. And that's the last I'll say on this as we are getting off topic here.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:40 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.


It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.


Points don't get handed out for qualifying.

In terms of performance over a weekend they were pretty even over the year with Hulkenberg having a slight edge.


With the midfield drivers I tend to focus more on qualifying than race finishes. We've seen a lot of times that sometimes starting further behind can be an advantage due to the tire strategy. And race pace is hard to decipher because of traffic. There were many races I'm sure Hulk got screwed with the strategy, and I don't recall Sainz passing him on track on merit ever. Only having qualifying to look at, Hulk beat him and beat him pretty badly. 0.15 does not even paint a true picture imo because a lot of times the gap was well over 2 tenths. So I still maintain my view that Hulk was simply faster and was the better driver by quite a margin. And that's the last I'll say on this as we are getting off topic here.


Hulk was what he has always shown to be.

Fast but inconsistent in races. Sainz was slower but more consistent.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.

It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.

Yeah Hulk 12-5 at a average of 0.15s.

That's an awfully low bar for domination. I'd say Hulk certainly won the qualifying battle, but 0.15 seconds doesn't strike me as domination. As far as the races, after the first three I make it 4-4 when both finished. That doesn't strike me as domination.

I'm not questioning that Hulk was a little better on the balance of the year, but I don't agree with throwing the term domination on it. If Hulk dominated Sainz after the first three races, then essentially any time you beat a teammate it's domination.

It's in the area of what Ricciardo did to Vettel so I don't know how you would determine that?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
But what happened to Sainz last year, when he got dominated by the Hulk?

That never happened, for a start. Sainz got off to a slow start, but by the midyear point he was basically matching Hulk. No domination happened.


It appears you stopped watching at the midyear point then. What I saw between those 2 definitely qualifies as domination in my book. Just looking at the last few races hulk outqualified sainz in almost all of them. Hulk was faster than Sainz.


Points don't get handed out for qualifying.

In terms of performance over a weekend they were pretty even over the year with Hulkenberg having a slight edge.

WDC
07. Hulk 69pts
10. Sainz 53pts

Head to head
Hulk 8 - 4 Sainz

Also factoring in the qualifying I'd move more to the Hulk beat him.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's an awfully low bar for domination. I'd say Hulk certainly won the qualifying battle, but 0.15 seconds doesn't strike me as domination. As far as the races, after the first three I make it 4-4 when both finished. That doesn't strike me as domination.

I'm not questioning that Hulk was a little better on the balance of the year, but I don't agree with throwing the term domination on it. If Hulk dominated Sainz after the first three races, then essentially any time you beat a teammate it's domination.

It's in the area of what Ricciardo did to Vettel so I don't know how you would determine that?

I'm not sure I would say that Ricciardo dominated Vettel. I think Ricciardo beat Vettel, and it was a shock that he did. But for domination I'm looking for something more like Hulk/Palmer or Alonso/Kimi.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:30 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
That's an awfully low bar for domination. I'd say Hulk certainly won the qualifying battle, but 0.15 seconds doesn't strike me as domination. As far as the races, after the first three I make it 4-4 when both finished. That doesn't strike me as domination.

I'm not questioning that Hulk was a little better on the balance of the year, but I don't agree with throwing the term domination on it. If Hulk dominated Sainz after the first three races, then essentially any time you beat a teammate it's domination.

It's in the area of what Ricciardo did to Vettel so I don't know how you would determine that?

I'm not sure I would say that Ricciardo dominated Vettel. I think Ricciardo beat Vettel, and it was a shock that he did. But for domination I'm looking for something more like Hulk/Palmer or Alonso/Kimi.

No certainly not domination but I think's it's viewed that Hulk beat Sainz hence I think that's why Renault let him go and perhaps was part of the reason Red Bull also let him go, the McLaren seat was also perhaps helped by Alonso but having that said that Sainz isn't a bad driver.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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