planetf1.com

It is currently Mon May 20, 2019 10:56 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4643
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 3681
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1129
Confirmed.

Shame.

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
spacejock wrote:
Herb wrote:
I don't think I care too much one way or the other about this.

Maybe it'll add some interest to the end of races? Maybe not.

Are Merc and Ferrari just gonna sweep them all though?



Imagine two or three drivers at the end of the race all putting in fastest lap after fastest lap. Drivers who are not going to get on the podium.

One of them tries too hard and spins out, or shreds his tyres, or runs out of fuel. Safety car even.

Will definitely add interest.

So a driver let's say that is already sitting on 6 points crashes out whilst trying to gain one extra point, that sounds sensible.

That would be down to them, though, wouldn't it? I mean, drivers can't complain that pushing presents unnecessary risks! You'd hope that they were sufficiently talented that it shouldn't be a factor

A driver is not going to risk all just for one point.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
Asphalt_World wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

It would be totally farcical as well.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:45 am
Posts: 87
In light of the FIA's decision to include a point for fastest lap for this year's WDC (silly imho), I decided to check out stats of current F1 drivers and prior WDCs since 1950...here are the top 8 fastest lap drivers by %:

Fangio (45.09%)

Clark (38.88%)

Ascari (37.5%)

Schumacher (25.16%)

Prost (20.60%)

Hamilton (17.90%)

Hill (16.52%)

Vettel (16.43%)

Hamilton has the best % ratio of any current driver (and also several retired drivers such as Massa, Rosberg, Button, Alonso etc).

Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
Asphalt_World wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?

Well, he has 5 WDCs and he shows his worth on track!!! Does he need any other proof?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 30
It might also encourage a 2nd-placed driver who is around a pitstop ahead of third to chance his arm. Take a quick pitstop, come out neck and neck, then flog it to the line to get an extra point. If they screw up the pit stop, he's third, but he MIGHT be able to get second back on new tyres. Maybe.

Doesn't sound like it's worth the risk, but it's a long season and there are, what, 20 points now available for fastest laps?

It's more likely to benefit the 'best of the rest' teams though. The usual 6 will be up front, while Renault, Alfa and so on battle it out for an extra point and position.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2395
Point for fastest lap is much better than a point for pole. At least a WDC can't be decided before a race starts this way.

Also this will ensure the top teams need to show their genuine pace, if only for one lap.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 706
dpastern wrote:
Hamilton has the best % ratio of any current driver (and also several retired drivers such as Massa, Rosberg, Button, Alonso etc).


Button and Alonso at least spent more time than Hamilton in cars just able to compete for the slowest lap...

_________________
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7706
Surprised Senna is missing given its on a % of races basis.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
spacejock wrote:
It might also encourage a 2nd-placed driver who is around a pitstop ahead of third to chance his arm. Take a quick pitstop, come out neck and neck, then flog it to the line to get an extra point. If they screw up the pit stop, he's third, but he MIGHT be able to get second back on new tyres. Maybe.

Doesn't sound like it's worth the risk, but it's a long season and there are, what, 20 points now available for fastest laps?

It's more likely to benefit the 'best of the rest' teams though. The usual 6 will be up front, while Renault, Alfa and so on battle it out for an extra point and position.

I believe this scenario has already been discussed if second place driver pits then the leader would probably pit as well.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
ALESI wrote:
Point for fastest lap is much better than a point for pole. At least a WDC can't be decided before a race starts this way.

Also this will ensure the top teams need to show their genuine pace, if only for one lap.

The leaders sometimes try to get the fastest lap anyway so I'm not sure it would change that much for them?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1628
It is just another example of how they try to make the 'competition' element of F1 seem more real. Maybe double points for the last race of the year is in the same category.

They have failed to make it attractive by improving the racing enough, so we have DRS, different tyre rules for the top 10 qualifiers, limits on battery use, and now a point available if you can put on tyres near the end of the race and have a clear track to set fastest lap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.

Good spot!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
pokerman wrote:
spacejock wrote:
It might also encourage a 2nd-placed driver who is around a pitstop ahead of third to chance his arm. Take a quick pitstop, come out neck and neck, then flog it to the line to get an extra point. If they screw up the pit stop, he's third, but he MIGHT be able to get second back on new tyres. Maybe.

Doesn't sound like it's worth the risk, but it's a long season and there are, what, 20 points now available for fastest laps?

It's more likely to benefit the 'best of the rest' teams though. The usual 6 will be up front, while Renault, Alfa and so on battle it out for an extra point and position.

I believe this scenario has already been discussed if second place driver pits then the leader would probably pit as well.

Depends; if it is the last few laps (like <10) and depending the track and depending if they actually need the points, then probably not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3652
Well now that it is here I guess we shall see. But I still don’t like it. Will it lead to the front runners pushing more at the end of races? I’m not so sure because taking care of the tires and preserving the position is most definitely more important than the 1 point you get for fastest lap. And even if one of the top guys go for it, their lap can easily be beaten by a midfield car that has pitted for fresh softest tires and is going for a glory lap for whatever reason. So no, I don’t think the top 10 runners will go for it that often. Like I said earlier it will only make sense for one of the top 10 guys that has fallen in no mans land where he can’t challenge the guy in front and he doesn’t have a threat from behind, so now there is more incentive to pit to get that fastest lap point. Which imo is ridiculous, adds next to zero to the show, and provides an undeserved reward.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:25 pm
Posts: 442
How about a point for the shortest time in the pits for lead lap finishers?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 875
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Surprised Senna is missing given its on a % of races basis.


Contrary to the myth that Senna was pushing like crazy every lap. His modus operandi was get pole, pushed hard in the first 5-6 laps to build a solid gap and then kind of manage it home.

Similar to Hamilton of the last 2 seasons. Hamilton only set 3 last seasons and all in races he was in a battle.

Germany - chasing down the leaders / protecting himself from Bottas attack at the end
Italy - race long battle with Kimi for the lead
USA - race long battle with Kimi/Max

The 3 races Hamilton got fastest lap in, he won 2, but really he shouldn't have won any of those races or at least had to push to the maximum to win them. The races he comfortably won, no fastest lap in any of them.

The same for Vettel, 3 fastest laps, only 1 being a win in which he had to push and overtake both Mercedes at the end (Britain)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 208
Location: Suffolk, UK
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Surprised Senna is missing given its on a % of races basis.


Maybe it's the same reason that Prost is so high up? Ie, if you're on pole as Senna often was you can dictate the race. If you have to come through from lower down the grid like Prost you set more fastest laps..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3331
Since the ending of refueling, and the move to Pirelli tyres (and the tyre philosophy that Pirelli have been told to design to) - the fastest lap has lost a lot of meaning. The fastest cars will usually start the race on the fastest tyre, whereas the slower cars end the race on the fastest tyre. This means that the slower cars get the tyre advantage when they are lightest, and given that there was no incentive (other than bragging rights) for a front runner to try and get the fastest lap, there was no reason for a front runner to make an attempt to try and get it.

Now that there is a point for fastest lap, teams may well readjust their strategies to try and snag that point... although given that the points difference is +1 vs +7 from 2nd place to 1st place, teams are not going to compromise a position in their strategy in an attempt to get the fastest lap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2395
kleefton wrote:
Well now that it is here I guess we shall see. But I still don’t like it. Will it lead to the front runners pushing more at the end of races? I’m not so sure because taking care of the tires and preserving the position is most definitely more important than the 1 point you get for fastest lap. And even if one of the top guys go for it, their lap can easily be beaten by a midfield car that has pitted for fresh softest tires and is going for a glory lap for whatever reason. So no, I don’t think the top 10 runners will go for it that often. Like I said earlier it will only make sense for one of the top 10 guys that has fallen in no mans land where he can’t challenge the guy in front and he doesn’t have a threat from behind, so now there is more incentive to pit to get that fastest lap point. Which imo is ridiculous, adds next to zero to the show, and provides an undeserved reward.


Or maybe a small crumb of something for a team that is constantly screwed over by a system that favours the top teams?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3652
ALESI wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Well now that it is here I guess we shall see. But I still don’t like it. Will it lead to the front runners pushing more at the end of races? I’m not so sure because taking care of the tires and preserving the position is most definitely more important than the 1 point you get for fastest lap. And even if one of the top guys go for it, their lap can easily be beaten by a midfield car that has pitted for fresh softest tires and is going for a glory lap for whatever reason. So no, I don’t think the top 10 runners will go for it that often. Like I said earlier it will only make sense for one of the top 10 guys that has fallen in no mans land where he can’t challenge the guy in front and he doesn’t have a threat from behind, so now there is more incentive to pit to get that fastest lap point. Which imo is ridiculous, adds next to zero to the show, and provides an undeserved reward.


Or maybe a small crumb of something for a team that is constantly screwed over by a system that favours the top teams?


Sorry if im not following you but if I understood you correctly then none of the lower teams are going to benefit from this. No one is going to sacrifice or jeopardize their finishing positions to earn fastest lap. The teams usually running in 7-10 positions are always in tight battles and can’t afford to do it. The teams running lower than p10 are not eligible for the awarded point.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:28 pm
Posts: 66
This is my first post, but I've been lurking a while, and I'm surprised how many members here seem so resistant to change. I read posts about how F1 is a sport of tradition, how back in the good old days points were only awarded to the top six drivers, and so on. One thing we must recognize first and foremost is that F1 is a business in the entertainment industry. More on-track intrigue = more viewers, and more viewers = more money.

That said, I like the idea of points for fastest lap, but I think the execution is wrong. With up to 25 points on offer for the race win, how many times are we going to see the front-runners purposefully going for the fastest lap. You pit for fresh soft tires, likely lose a position, but have the chance to gain the fastest lap point. In fact, unless there's a large enough gap to pit and retain position, nobody in the points-paying positions is going to go for it. That's why the bonus needs to be larger. I'd say at least 3 points, but maybe as much as 5. It needs to be a big enough bonus that pitting and losing position is worth it. And I can hear you already shooting this down, as the purpose of racing is to finish higher up the order. But consider the situation: Team A is ahead of Team B on track, but behind them in the points. They pit in the last several laps to attempt the fastest lap. If team B challenges for fastest lap in order to stay ahead on points, then their position on track stays the same. However, we now have two teams giving it their all instead of coasting home.

Another element that needs to change are fuel regulations. Drivers coming to the checker flag in fuel saving mode is absolutely boring. Teams need to be given enough fuel that they can push hard for the majority of the race. Teams could still opt for a lighter fuel load if they want, but it would really shake up strategies. Teams wouldn't know what their rivals are planning; are they going light and hoping to pull away early? Are they going full and planning an attack near the end of the race, possibly picking up position and fastest lap?

Next, tires need to change. Recently, the most typical race strategy is a single stop. Tires are too durable to warrant a second stop most of the time, but the regulations requires at least one. Sometimes the tires appear durable enough to make it the entire race distance in the mild fuel-saving parade we get. Tires need to be delicate enough the multiple stops are always needed, or make them durable enough to go the race distance and get rid of pit stops.

Lastly, points-paying positions needs to expand. I've seen a lot of comments other places about how offering points to more drivers cheapens the championship, but it really doesn't. I did a comparison for last season between the F1 and MotoGP scoring systems, and the results at the top stay pretty similar. After all, those guys were almost always in the top ten or out of the race completely. 3rd-5th would have been Bottas, Verstappen, Raikkonen instead of Raikkonen, Verstappen, Bottas (which I think better reflects their performances through the year). What really changes is at the back. There's A LOT more movement in the driver standings for positions 7-20, and even Sergey Sirotkin would have been in 19th on a couple occasions early in the season.

The whole point is that this entertainment business is racing, and we need to find ways to get the drivers to actually race for more of the event. Adjustments to the aerodynamics is part of it. Points for fastest lap is part of it. F1 needs to looking at every reason teams have to wave the proverbial white flag and address them, because theirs nothing entertaining about watching the cars parade around for the last 5-10 laps, and even worse, teams retiring a car with nothing wrong with it just because it's not running in the points.

PS- I think the new qualifying format that was tried recently was also good in concept, but again, poorly executed. I feel the goal was to have drivers making more attempts, but tire limitations prevented that from playing out. Unlimited qualifying sets and no requirements to start the race on qualifying sets would have helped a lot. Also, I think a lot of teams blew their timing pretty bad.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am
Posts: 749
Location: Stratford


Bottas 5th to 3rd in 2018
Ricciardo 8th to 7th in 2015
Raikkonen 12th to 11th in 2014


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25053
JN23 wrote:


Bottas 5th to 3rd in 2018
Ricciardo 8th to 7th in 2015
Raikkonen 12th to 11th in 2014

I think that's kind of missing the point. It's not about whether past Championships would have affected, since you can't just apply the points in isolation and not expect any of the races to have had a different outcome. The point is about whether or not it will affect driver behavior moving forward and in that respect I think it will. Driver's will go for the extra point as it would be silly not to. Sometimes it won't affect anything in the race, but sometimes it will. And that's why they're doing it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am
Posts: 749
Location: Stratford
Zoue wrote:
JN23 wrote:


Bottas 5th to 3rd in 2018
Ricciardo 8th to 7th in 2015
Raikkonen 12th to 11th in 2014

I think that's kind of missing the point. It's not about whether past Championships would have affected, since you can't just apply the points in isolation and not expect any of the races to have had a different outcome. The point is about whether or not it will affect driver behavior moving forward and in that respect I think it will. Driver's will go for the extra point as it would be silly not to. Sometimes it won't affect anything in the race, but sometimes it will. And that's why they're doing it


I agree, just thought some might find it interesting.

I think it will not affect races more than it will affect races.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 3681
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.


Who was mistaken?

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:45 am
Posts: 87
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Surprised Senna is missing given its on a % of races basis.


Senna was often quoted as saying that it didn't matter how much you won by - a win by a second was still a win. No need to push the car harder than you have to. Like someone else in this thread has already said, Senna would typically be starting from pole, making a lightning getaway at the start and push hard for the first 5 or so laps to build a buffer and then maintain position all the way to the finish.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If the FL point is awarded only to first 10 drivers, than it is unfair. Just imagine, drivers from 11 downward, in the last five laps, what kamikaze laps they will do to get the point, by going all to the box getting fresh rubbers and do some qualy-like laps? It could be the spice of the race.


Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.


Who was mistaken?

No sorry it was just a case of your post being misread.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6814
Location: Michigan, USA
dpastern wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Surprised Senna is missing given its on a % of races basis.

Senna was often quoted as saying that it didn't matter how much you won by - a win by a second was still a win. No need to push the car harder than you have to. Like someone else in this thread has already said, Senna would typically be starting from pole, making a lightning getaway at the start and push hard for the first 5 or so laps to build a buffer and then maintain position all the way to the finish.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the percent of fastest laps for any of these drivers is when they started on pole versus when they didn't?

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.


Who was mistaken?

No sorry it was just a case of your post being misread.

Yes I did misread that post, but you also said that Asphalt's post was mistaken.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:45 am
Posts: 87
Exediron wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Surprised Senna is missing given its on a % of races basis.

Senna was often quoted as saying that it didn't matter how much you won by - a win by a second was still a win. No need to push the car harder than you have to. Like someone else in this thread has already said, Senna would typically be starting from pole, making a lightning getaway at the start and push hard for the first 5 or so laps to build a buffer and then maintain position all the way to the finish.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the percent of fastest laps for any of these drivers is when they started on pole versus when they didn't?


An interesting question, but would be difficult to answer since most sources aren't suitably detailed or accurate to construct the data.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30667
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.


Who was mistaken?

No sorry it was just a case of your post being misread.

Yes I did misread that post, but you also said that Asphalt's post was mistaken.

Yes that's why I said sorry, both of us misread his post.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 3681
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Problem is, it causes a totally different event to be taking place if that happens. Having 10 cars flying in and out of the pits to get new rubber, backing off to get space in front of them and other things too, will cause big problems for those battling for the top 10 places finishes and the points associated with that. It would be total madness.

Potentially. We do not know that just yet. They may not even bother with a measly point if they are miles ahead. Also, if the leaders are in a tight battle ahead, I doubt they'll drop that nice position to get new tyres and go for a glory lap. Imagine the scenario where Hamilton and Vettel are a close 1-2, can you think of Hamilton going "oh wait, I'll hand Vettel the first place and 25 points so that I may get the fastest lap, totalling 19 for a second place?"... Not a chance.

This will only occur if the driver has a nice cushion of something like 30+ secs, plus if you can guarantee that they won't get out in traffic after the pit stop.

All in all, no, it doesn't seem to me that it will happen like this, too much hustle for one point. They may go for fastest laps with the tyres they are using, but then again they will not want to overcook them and bin it. So not that much drama really.

And again, let's try it and then see. We've heard or indeed implemented, far worse ideas all these years

I'm not sure you read the post you was replying to, he mistakenly was believing that drivers running outside of the top would be stopping for tyres to get the extra point when they are not even eligible for the extra point.


Who was mistaken?

No sorry it was just a case of your post being misread.


Thanks for clarifying. Makes sense now, cheers.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:29 am
Posts: 261
Thought I'd have a look at 2018 for who might have done well out of this:

Number of Fastest Laps in 2018

Bottas - 7
Ricciardo - 4
Vettel - 3
Hamilton - 3
Verstappen - 2
Raikkonen - 1
Magnussen - 1

This would have put Bottas in 3rd place in the 2018 WDC, jumping both Verstappen and Raikkonen. That's the only significant change in the order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1129
I find fastest laps as a stat basically meaningless. The reason is that poles, wins. podiums and points are all things that you have to assume a driver will always to try to achieve, no matter what. There's a few exceptions but generally that's OK to assume.

Fastest Laps though... Why would a driver TRY for a fastest lap when there was no incentive? The old adage win at the slowest speed possible. Hamilton, Prost, Senna all have a pretty decent set of fastest laps but I'm sure they would have a lot more if they had reason to set one. Equally Vettel is known to go for it just for the hell of it even when it gains him nothing in terms of points or positions.

You have basically now have what is it - 400 or something races where we have a fastest lap recorded, but that doesn't mean another driver couldn't have gone quicker if they had wanted/needed to.

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7166
DOLOMITE wrote:
I find fastest laps as a stat basically meaningless. The reason is that poles, wins. podiums and points are all things that you have to assume a driver will always to try to achieve, no matter what. There's a few exceptions but generally that's OK to assume.

Fastest Laps though... Why would a driver TRY for a fastest lap when there was no incentive? The old adage win at the slowest speed possible. Hamilton, Prost, Senna all have a pretty decent set of fastest laps but I'm sure they would have a lot more if they had reason to set one. Equally Vettel is known to go for it just for the hell of it even when it gains him nothing in terms of points or positions.

You have basically now have what is it - 400 or something races where we have a fastest lap recorded, but that doesn't mean another driver couldn't have gone quicker if they had wanted/needed to.

I'm not following your last point Dolo. Yes, others could have gone for the fastest, but didn't. So what does that prove/mean?

The incentive for the fastest lap would be the 1 point gained I guess. And bragging rights!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: RaggedMan and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group