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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:10 pm 
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You must be reading my mind, I had the same thoughts about Baldassari after today, can be freakishly fast but it seems to be all or nothing and he also reminded me of Iannone.

Same with Rossi, it's only today that I've thought it's time to hang up his helmet, he's turned 40 and it's been a steady decline, no title for 10 years although he was unlucky 4 years ago, no win for 2 years whilst his teammate has had a couple of wins and he was dominant both times, also the qualifying has seen him miss Q2 50% of the time whilst his teammate has a 100% record.

However as for Rins you probably don't realise that's his first crash in 17 races and he has won a race so it's not a case of him having a nose bleed whilst in front.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
You must be reading my mind, I had the same thoughts about Baldassari after today, can be freakishly fast but it seems to be all or nothing and he also reminded me of Iannone.

Same with Rossi, it's only today that I've thought it's time to hang up his helmet, he's turned 40 and it's been a steady decline, no title for 10 years although he was unlucky 4 years ago, no win for 2 years whilst his teammate has had a couple of wins and he was dominant both times, also the qualifying has seen him miss Q2 50% of the time whilst his teammate has a 100% record.

However as for Rins you probably don't realise that's his first crash in 17 races and he has won a race so it's not a case of him having a nose bleed whilst in front.

No, I'm well aware of Rins's form. It's more a culmination of seeing him botch the Moto3 title in 2013 and then have an abysmal 2nd year in Moto2 in 2016 when everyone was expecting him to take the title going into the year. He seems to do his best work under the radar but as soon as he's in the position where he's expected to win; things seem to consistently go wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must be reading my mind, I had the same thoughts about Baldassari after today, can be freakishly fast but it seems to be all or nothing and he also reminded me of Iannone.

Same with Rossi, it's only today that I've thought it's time to hang up his helmet, he's turned 40 and it's been a steady decline, no title for 10 years although he was unlucky 4 years ago, no win for 2 years whilst his teammate has had a couple of wins and he was dominant both times, also the qualifying has seen him miss Q2 50% of the time whilst his teammate has a 100% record.

However as for Rins you probably don't realise that's his first crash in 17 races and he has won a race so it's not a case of him having a nose bleed whilst in front.

No, I'm well aware of Rins's form. It's more a culmination of seeing him botch the Moto3 title in 2013 and then have an abysmal 2nd year in Moto2 in 2016 when everyone was expecting him to take the title going into the year. He seems to do his best work under the radar but as soon as he's in the position where he's expected to win; things seem to consistently go wrong.

Fair enough.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:24 am 
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Anyone watch the first MotoE? Pretty good :) You can here the kneesliders at work but a drawback seems to be if someone crashes. They are so heavy if they hit the airfence the fence blows. There are also a number of procedures to follow after a crash; in some situations it requires a red flag, the bikes has to have a special covering laid over it until a truck arrives that seals the bike inside the truck.

But from the little we saw (nearly 6 laps) it looks like good racing.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:29 pm 
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Alex Marquez and Marc Marquez both dominating the championships right now. Their father must be proud.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:12 pm 
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Very true but that isn't the only amazing performance, Brit Cal Crutchlow 3rd at the German Grand Prix, just four days after breaking his leg while out cycling. Bikers are truly tough characters! Puts some whinging F1 drivers to shame.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:18 pm 
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Rins binning it was difficult to watch, but as has been stated here, when the spotlight is on him, he tends to make mistakes. Two consecutive races throwing away podiums and at least one potential win has got to grate Davide Brivio.

Vinales seems to have found something and it's nice to see him pushing his way up front----kid is naturally talented and needs support. I wonder if Yamaha has started to develop the bike around his settings a bit? In Assen he was spectacular how he caught back up to Marquez and the just flat out smoked him to the finish. These next circuits are more flowing and fast, and that seems to favor his riding style. We know at certain places Marquez will reign supreme like Austin and in Germany, but Brno might not be as favorable, and Silverstone is a bit of a question mark as we didn't race there last year. Red Bull Ring in Austria should still favor Ducati. Hopefully that'll give us some different looks at the front, especially with Yamaha (outside of Rossi) looking like they have their stuff together.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:06 am 
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Brad Binder steps up to MotoGP IN 2020 with Tech 3.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp ... ktm-tech3/

Syahrin gets the Boot.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:23 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Brad Binder steps up to MotoGP IN 2020 with Tech 3.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp ... ktm-tech3/

Syahrin gets the Boot.

I find that curious to be honest. There are other riders at that level who have done better but not yet secured a seat in MotoGP.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:48 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Brad Binder steps up to MotoGP IN 2020 with Tech 3.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp ... ktm-tech3/

Syahrin gets the Boot.

I find that curious to be honest. There are other riders at that level who have done better but not yet secured a seat in MotoGP.


It was always a matter of when not if, particularly given he is already a KTM rider. It will be interesting to see if Zarco goes as well. He's already had one big falling out with the team and still not delivering. Although how much of that is down to the bike is up for debate.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:57 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Rins binning it was difficult to watch, but as has been stated here, when the spotlight is on him, he tends to make mistakes. Two consecutive races throwing away podiums and at least one potential win has got to grate Davide Brivio.

Vinales seems to have found something and it's nice to see him pushing his way up front----kid is naturally talented and needs support. I wonder if Yamaha has started to develop the bike around his settings a bit? In Assen he was spectacular how he caught back up to Marquez and the just flat out smoked him to the finish. These next circuits are more flowing and fast, and that seems to favor his riding style. We know at certain places Marquez will reign supreme like Austin and in Germany, but Brno might not be as favorable, and Silverstone is a bit of a question mark as we didn't race there last year. Red Bull Ring in Austria should still favor Ducati. Hopefully that'll give us some different looks at the front, especially with Yamaha (outside of Rossi) looking like they have their stuff together.

I think it was this time last year that Vinales complained that Yamaha didn't listen to him only Rossi got his views across, if we remember when Vinales first joined Yamaha he was fastest in testing and fastest in the early races winning some of them, Rossi trailed in his wake but then Rossi said he didn't like the bike.

Now that Rossi is now seemingly declining a bit too much the team needs to plan more for the future rather than the commercial gains that come with having Rossi onboard.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:01 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Brad Binder steps up to MotoGP IN 2020 with Tech 3.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp ... ktm-tech3/

Syahrin gets the Boot.

I find that curious to be honest. There are other riders at that level who have done better but not yet secured a seat in MotoGP.

That's not the fault of Binder though the Moto2 KTM is not very good and he's been the best KTM rider, he's been a works KTM rider for the past 3 years now, he won the Moto3 title with them, moving up to MotoGP with them is a logical progression given that the poor Moto2 results are down to them and not Binder.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:45 am 
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https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... nREMW0zTg..

Great article. I see many people disparage Márquez, stating he can’t prove his greatness unless he wins on another brand. I find most of these people wear yellow-tinted sunglasses, and can’t stand the fact he’s had the success he’s had. That being said, I’d love to see him ride a Ducati, or even a KTM. I agree in that he doesn’t have to do it to cement his greatness. I believe he’s making it look better than it really is. Anyways, thought it was worth a perusal.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:45 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/do-motogp-greats-need-prove-themselves-different-bikes?_gl=1%2A1ip8vja%2A_ga%2AZGZId01veXNnQ1pmdjhTcVlXOXVia0pBUzJhb1NMb3JvOVRwM0Mtazk3eThBRUJOQmtPdC1UbWp0dnREMW0zTg..

Great article. I see many people disparage Márquez, stating he can’t prove his greatness unless he wins on another brand. I find most of these people wear yellow-tinted sunglasses, and can’t stand the fact he’s had the success he’s had. That being said, I’d love to see him ride a Ducati, or even a KTM. I agree in that he doesn’t have to do it to cement his greatness. I believe he’s making it look better than it really is. Anyways, thought it was worth a perusal.


I don't see that many people thinking that. A few Rossi fanboys maybe? And the article does touch on what most think-that doing it with more than one team is an 'accomplishment'. I certainly do. Only recently we have seen that thinking in F1 at WDC level as well; with Lauda saying he used the second team argument as 'bait' to get Hamilton, and Hamilton confirming he took the bait. And for those who still have question marks hanging over Vettel; wouldn't a further WDC with Ferrari negate any doubts about his greatness?


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:37 pm 
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In WSBKs, after winning the opening 11 races Bautista now trails Rea by 60+points having crashed in 5 of the last 9 races!!


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:02 pm 
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Silly season odds and ends...

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp ... k8VwTD_pHA

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:44 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
In WSBKs, after winning the opening 11 races Bautista now trails Rea by 60+points having crashed in 5 of the last 9 races!!


WTF! How the hell do you lose a title after a 11 race opening win streak! Rea proving consistency is all in a Championship.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:42 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Zazu wrote:
In WSBKs, after winning the opening 11 races Bautista now trails Rea by 60+points having crashed in 5 of the last 9 races!!


WTF! How the hell do you lose a title after a 11 race opening win streak! Rea proving consistency is all in a Championship.

It happens with points systems that put almost as much emphasis on being consistent as winning races, all the series are like this, I would say it's done as much for commercial reasons rather than sporting reasons as in try to take the title down to the wire.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:33 am 
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This...is nuts.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors ... tomatters/

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:11 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:



Nuts in a way; but in hindsight Lorenzo made a mistake by signing for Honda when he did, and Ducati made a big mistake in making it clear he wasn't wanted. Why not admit you screwed up and rectify the mistake?
Although it may suit Honda to keep someone who can't compete with Marquez on the same bike; but is capable of beating Marquez on a different bike.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:16 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:

Nuts in a way; but in hindsight Lorenzo made a mistake by signing for Honda when he did, and Ducati made a big mistake in making it clear he wasn't wanted. Why not admit you screwed up and rectify the mistake?
Although it may suit Honda to keep someone who can't compete with Marquez on the same bike; but is capable of beating Marquez on a different bike.

One of the comments below the article queried whether Jorge shouldn't be making enquiries with Suzuki. That may just be a decent match.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Now there are reports that Lorenzo has offered his services to Petronas Yamaha!!!!!!

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/l ... a/4511036/

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:38 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Now there are reports that Lorenzo has offered his services to Petronas Yamaha!!!!!!

https://us.motorsport.com/motogp/news/l ... a/4511036/

I heard that Alex Marquez might be lining himself up for that ride although it would be for 2021, in 2020 he would stay in Moto2 and ride for their Petronas team first.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:29 pm 
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Now that was a nailbiter of a race. Two champions making it almost unimportant who happens to cross the finish line in first position.

During the Austrian Grand Prix, I started wondering precisely what is required as track adaptation between F1/car racing and MotoGP/motorbike racing. After all, it's just a few weeks since the Austrian F1 GP. Kerb stones will probably feature high on the list of items, and I was rather intrigued to see the riders systematically use them beyond the track limits in nearly all of the higher speed corners.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Now that was a nailbiter of a race. Two champions making it almost unimportant who happens to cross the finish line in first position.

During the Austrian Grand Prix, I started wondering precisely what is required as track adaptation between F1/car racing and MotoGP/motorbike racing. After all, it's just a few weeks since the Austrian F1 GP. Kerb stones will probably feature high on the list of items, and I was rather intrigued to see the riders systematically use them beyond the track limits in nearly all of the higher speed corners.


If its painted green then it's beyond track limits. You get one official warning for exceeding limits, then a penalty for a subsequent infringement.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:43 pm 
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That was awesome, didn’t think Dovi could claw it back in the last sector. Fabulous racing.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 am 
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All going on today by the looks of the rumor mill.Cracking race yesterday as well!

Zarco - Out of KTM after 1 year of a 2 year contract.
Miller - Contract extension imminent
Lorenzo - Staying at HRC


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:10 am 
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Zarco, KTM to split after the season by mutual consent...essentially ending Zarco’s career in MotoGP.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... t/4512390/

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:24 am 
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Cold Gin wrote:
That was awesome, didn’t think Dovi could claw it back in the last sector. Fabulous racing.

I could not imagine him throwing the Duke under Marquez through those last turns like that. That was fantastic.
Btw what happened to Cal? Looked as if a KTM stopped right in front of him on the exit of 3.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:39 pm 
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Cold Gin wrote:
Zarco, KTM to split after the season by mutual consent...essentially ending Zarco’s career in MotoGP.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... t/4512390/

I called this from when he announced that he was signing with them. What a poor career move. The worst I've seen in MotoGP. Zarco was the hottest prospect in the 2017-2018 time frame. I can't fathom why he chose to go to the only factory team that was nowhere.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Zarco, KTM to split after the season by mutual consent...essentially ending Zarco’s career in MotoGP.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... t/4512390/

I called this from when he announced that he was signing with them. What a poor career move. The worst I've seen in MotoGP. Zarco was the hottest prospect in the 2017-2018 time frame. I can't fathom why he chose to go to the only factory team that was nowhere.

He had the chance to go to Repsol Honda but didn't fancy his chances against Marquez.

Going up against Marquez at Honda is a bit like going up against Verstappen at Red Bull, potential career suicide, ask Lorenzo and Gasly.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:32 pm 
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Apparently Yamaha are blocking Alex Marquez from riding for them in MotoGP because of what his brother did in 2015, kind of strange because he was accused of helping Yamaha rider Lorenzo who won the title, makes you wonder who within Yamaha has actually put the block on?

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Zarco, KTM to split after the season by mutual consent...essentially ending Zarco’s career in MotoGP.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... t/4512390/

I called this from when he announced that he was signing with them. What a poor career move. The worst I've seen in MotoGP. Zarco was the hottest prospect in the 2017-2018 time frame. I can't fathom why he chose to go to the only factory team that was nowhere.

He had the chance to go to Repsol Honda but didn't fancy his chances against Marquez.

Going up against Marquez at Honda is a bit like going up against Verstappen at Red Bull, potential career suicide, ask Lorenzo and Gasly.

I don't think that comparison holds. Verstappen is not Marquez. Daniel was able to beat him 2 years out of 3 wheres Marc was able to beat Pedrosa in his rookie year and has never really come close to losing to a teammate. There has never been a driver in F1 who makes the same impact that Marc makes in MotoGP and the nature of F1 basically makes that impossible. MotoGP just has a much better balance between how important the man is and how important the machine is. Prior to this year, in 4 full seasons in F1, Max has a 2-2 record in the points and a 2-2 record in qualifying.

Despite that, Zarco would have done better to join Honda. At least there he would be finishing on the podium and probably winning the occasional race. From there he could potentially move to another top team if he found things too difficult at Honda.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:06 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Zarco, KTM to split after the season by mutual consent...essentially ending Zarco’s career in MotoGP.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... t/4512390/

I called this from when he announced that he was signing with them. What a poor career move. The worst I've seen in MotoGP. Zarco was the hottest prospect in the 2017-2018 time frame. I can't fathom why he chose to go to the only factory team that was nowhere.

He had the chance to go to Repsol Honda but didn't fancy his chances against Marquez.

Going up against Marquez at Honda is a bit like going up against Verstappen at Red Bull, potential career suicide, ask Lorenzo and Gasly.

I don't think that comparison holds. Verstappen is not Marquez. Daniel was able to beat him 2 years out of 3 wheres Marc was able to beat Pedrosa in his rookie year and has never really come close to losing to a teammate. There has never been a driver in F1 who makes the same impact that Marc makes in MotoGP and the nature of F1 basically makes that impossible. MotoGP just has a much better balance between how important the man is and how important the machine is. Prior to this year, in 4 full seasons in F1, Max has a 2-2 record in the points and a 2-2 record in qualifying.

Despite that, Zarco would have done better to join Honda. At least there he would be finishing on the podium and probably winning the occasional race. From there he could potentially move to another top team if he found things too difficult at Honda.

Marquez had far more experience than Verstappen, he rode on the GP circus for 5 years before making his MotoGP debut as opposed to Verstappen who had 1 years car experience before joining F1, Marquez was also 3 years older.

Marquez's teammate Pedrosa was actually beating Marquez after 6 races and had a 30 point lead, however Pedrosa got injured had to miss a race and raced 2 races injured, he finished 34 points behind Marquez. Strangely exactly the same fate befell Lorenzo at the exact same races, he finished 4 points behind Marquez despite winning 2 races more.

A year later aged 21 is when there was the first sign of Marquez taking a control of the sport, the same age as Verstappen is now, although a year later was not a great year were he coped poorly with having an inferior bike for the most part.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Cold Gin wrote:
Zarco, KTM to split after the season by mutual consent...essentially ending Zarco’s career in MotoGP.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... t/4512390/

I called this from when he announced that he was signing with them. What a poor career move. The worst I've seen in MotoGP. Zarco was the hottest prospect in the 2017-2018 time frame. I can't fathom why he chose to go to the only factory team that was nowhere.

He had the chance to go to Repsol Honda but didn't fancy his chances against Marquez.

Going up against Marquez at Honda is a bit like going up against Verstappen at Red Bull, potential career suicide, ask Lorenzo and Gasly.

I don't think that comparison holds. Verstappen is not Marquez. Daniel was able to beat him 2 years out of 3 wheres Marc was able to beat Pedrosa in his rookie year and has never really come close to losing to a teammate. There has never been a driver in F1 who makes the same impact that Marc makes in MotoGP and the nature of F1 basically makes that impossible. MotoGP just has a much better balance between how important the man is and how important the machine is. Prior to this year, in 4 full seasons in F1, Max has a 2-2 record in the points and a 2-2 record in qualifying.

Despite that, Zarco would have done better to join Honda. At least there he would be finishing on the podium and probably winning the occasional race. From there he could potentially move to another top team if he found things too difficult at Honda.

Marquez had far more experience than Verstappen, he rode on the GP circus for 5 years before making his MotoGP debut as opposed to Verstappen who had 1 years car experience before joining F1, Marquez was also 3 years older.

Marquez's teammate Pedrosa was actually beating Marquez after 6 races and had a 30 point lead, however Pedrosa got injured had to miss a race and raced 2 races injured, he finished 34 points behind Marquez. Strangely exactly the same fate befell Lorenzo at the exact same races, he finished 4 points behind Marquez despite winning 2 races more.

A year later aged 21 is when there was the first sign of Marquez taking a control of the sport, the same age as Verstappen is now, although a year later was not a great year were he coped poorly with having an inferior bike for the most part.

Those years before the age of 21 contained Marquez dominating the sport still. Marques at 17 dominated the 125 category and won the title. At 18 he was the top rider in the Moto2 category but he did not win the title only due to missing races with injury. At 19 he won the Moto2 title in dominant fashion. Dani Pedrosa is at least the equivalent of Daniel Ricciardo as a rider and Marc beat him in his first year at 20. Yes Dani did struggle with injuries that year but Marc won the title and then had a record breaking year at the same age (slightly younger) that Max is now. He won 13 races that year at 21 years of age!

Yes Max had one year of car experience when he first came into F1 but he did not win the title in that one year in F3 (Ocon did). He was out-qualified by Sainz as a rookie and Carlos had such bad luck with reliability that you can't really compare their race results from 2015. He was out-qualified and out-raced by Ricciardo in 2016 and beaten in the points by Daniel the following year as well (although I would say that was mostly down to poor reliability). My point is not that Max isn't great or that he won't some day establish himself as the best. That's all possible. My point is that he isn't even a champion and he certainly isn't Marc Marquez (a rider considered by most to be the best ever). Max still has to prove all the things you seem to want to hand him.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:53 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I called this from when he announced that he was signing with them. What a poor career move. The worst I've seen in MotoGP. Zarco was the hottest prospect in the 2017-2018 time frame. I can't fathom why he chose to go to the only factory team that was nowhere.

He had the chance to go to Repsol Honda but didn't fancy his chances against Marquez.

Going up against Marquez at Honda is a bit like going up against Verstappen at Red Bull, potential career suicide, ask Lorenzo and Gasly.

I don't think that comparison holds. Verstappen is not Marquez. Daniel was able to beat him 2 years out of 3 wheres Marc was able to beat Pedrosa in his rookie year and has never really come close to losing to a teammate. There has never been a driver in F1 who makes the same impact that Marc makes in MotoGP and the nature of F1 basically makes that impossible. MotoGP just has a much better balance between how important the man is and how important the machine is. Prior to this year, in 4 full seasons in F1, Max has a 2-2 record in the points and a 2-2 record in qualifying.

Despite that, Zarco would have done better to join Honda. At least there he would be finishing on the podium and probably winning the occasional race. From there he could potentially move to another top team if he found things too difficult at Honda.

Marquez had far more experience than Verstappen, he rode on the GP circus for 5 years before making his MotoGP debut as opposed to Verstappen who had 1 years car experience before joining F1, Marquez was also 3 years older.

Marquez's teammate Pedrosa was actually beating Marquez after 6 races and had a 30 point lead, however Pedrosa got injured had to miss a race and raced 2 races injured, he finished 34 points behind Marquez. Strangely exactly the same fate befell Lorenzo at the exact same races, he finished 4 points behind Marquez despite winning 2 races more.

A year later aged 21 is when there was the first sign of Marquez taking a control of the sport, the same age as Verstappen is now, although a year later was not a great year were he coped poorly with having an inferior bike for the most part.

Those years before the age of 21 contained Marquez dominating the sport still. Marques at 17 dominated the 125 category and won the title. At 18 he was the top rider in the Moto2 category but he did not win the title only due to missing races with injury. At 19 he won the Moto2 title in dominant fashion. Dani Pedrosa is at least the equivalent of Daniel Ricciardo as a rider and Marc beat him in his first year at 20. Yes Dani did struggle with injuries that year but Marc won the title and then had a record breaking year at the same age (slightly younger) that Max is now. He won 13 races that year at 21 years of age!

Yes Max had one year of car experience when he first came into F1 but he did not win the title in that one year in F3 (Ocon did). He was out-qualified by Sainz as a rookie and Carlos had such bad luck with reliability that you can't really compare their race results from 2015. He was out-qualified and out-raced by Ricciardo in 2016 and beaten in the points by Daniel the following year as well (although I would say that was mostly down to poor reliability). My point is not that Max isn't great or that he won't some day establish himself as the best. That's all possible. My point is that he isn't even a champion and he certainly isn't Marc Marquez (a rider considered by most to be the best ever). Max still has to prove all the things you seem to want to hand him.

Verstappen was 16 when he raced in F3 and he won many races against more experienced drivers, at 16 Marquez had yet to win a race after competing for 2 years in 125s, aged 17 it was like a switch was turned on and he became the Marquez we know now but let's not forget he wasn't competing against the best riders in the sport, at 17 Verstappen was in F1 racing against the elite, a bit like Marquez in 125s it has taken Verstappen a couple of years to get fully up to speed in F1.

I just made a simple comparison, I could have done similar with Alonso and some of his teammates, the last one being Vandoorne, as you may know I rate Hamilton has having more ultimate speed than Alonso, certainly in one lap speed, this wasn't aimed at making F1 driver comparisons.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Those years before the age of 21 contained Marquez dominating the sport still. Marques at 17 dominated the 125 category and won the title. At 18 he was the top rider in the Moto2 category but he did not win the title only due to missing races with injury. At 19 he won the Moto2 title in dominant fashion. Dani Pedrosa is at least the equivalent of Daniel Ricciardo as a rider and Marc beat him in his first year at 20. Yes Dani did struggle with injuries that year but Marc won the title and then had a record breaking year at the same age (slightly younger) that Max is now. He won 13 races that year at 21 years of age!

Yes Max had one year of car experience when he first came into F1 but he did not win the title in that one year in F3 (Ocon did). He was out-qualified by Sainz as a rookie and Carlos had such bad luck with reliability that you can't really compare their race results from 2015. He was out-qualified and out-raced by Ricciardo in 2016 and beaten in the points by Daniel the following year as well (although I would say that was mostly down to poor reliability). My point is not that Max isn't great or that he won't some day establish himself as the best. That's all possible. My point is that he isn't even a champion and he certainly isn't Marc Marquez (a rider considered by most to be the best ever). Max still has to prove all the things you seem to want to hand him.

Verstappen was 16 when he raced in F3 and he won many races against more experienced drivers, at 16 Marquez had yet to win a race after competing for 2 years in 125s, aged 17 it was like a switch was turned on and he became the Marquez we know now but let's not forget he wasn't competing against the best riders in the sport, at 17 Verstappen was in F1 racing against the elite, a bit like Marquez in 125s it has taken Verstappen a couple of years to get fully up to speed in F1.

I just made a simple comparison, I could have done similar with Alonso and some of his teammates, the last one being Vandoorne, as you may know I rate Hamilton has having more ultimate speed than Alonso, certainly in one lap speed, this wasn't aimed at making F1 driver comparisons.

Ocon is only a year older than Verstappen. Anyway, I was just pointing out that it's a bad comparison. Gasly and Vandoorne's problem was not Max or Alonso. It was their own driving. Zarco doesn't have that problem (at least he didn't until this year). When Daniel was on the team Max wasn't doing this and when Alonso was teamed with Hamilton or Button he wasn't either. It's about how weak the teammate was.

Main thing is that Marquez and the gap between him and the other riders is a totally different beast. Only thing similar that I've seen is Loeb.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Main thing is that Marquez and the gap between him and the other riders is a totally different beast. Only thing similar that I've seen is Loeb.

Yeah, I'd agree - albeit from the point of view of a fairly casual follower of MotoGP and a dedicated follower of F1. It seems to me that Marquez has an almost superhuman gap over all the rest, like Senna did in the 1980s - except Marquez is facing other riders who started at the same time as him and have had all the same physical training and conditioning. It's just a pure talent gap, and it's far larger than Verstappen has over the F1 field.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:26 pm 
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I'm also just a casual followed of MotoGP. It's scary to think what Marquez might achieve by the end of his career. He's showcasing a rare dominance in the history of sports which making me think of the likes of Bolt or Jahangir Khan.

But out of those three I'm inclined -- despite him not even beginning to make good on his maximum potentially funnily enough -- to give Bolt the most respect for his dominance. Squash is still not a particularly popular global sport, nor does it have a particularly large player base. Now can somebody tell me, does the world of bikes and MotoGP suffer similarly? An awful lot of drivers are either Spanish or Italian. What is the depth of talent here? Does Marquez shine as he does as merely a single anomoly, where in many other sports 2-3-4 anomalies are more likely to exist at the same time making it nearly impossible to demonstrate sole dominance and superiority over the field?

Comparisons are impossible but what I'm basically asking is, just how special is M.Marquez? Phil Taylor showed this type of dominance for many many years in darts, but the stats show that Michael Van Gerwen is no worse - actually he's probably better. He sure as heck won't win as much though. Taylor dominated darts for such a long period as the only special anomoly in the whole field. When a talent which rises above the rest presents itself in chess, I'm inclined to give it far more credence given how global and widely played the game is. As such, Kasparov's exploits were quite extraordinary and Carlsen is forging a similar path today.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Motogp Season
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:33 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Main thing is that Marquez and the gap between him and the other riders is a totally different beast. Only thing similar that I've seen is Loeb.

Yeah, I'd agree - albeit from the point of view of a fairly casual follower of MotoGP and a dedicated follower of F1. It seems to me that Marquez has an almost superhuman gap over all the rest, like Senna did in the 1980s - except Marquez is facing other riders who started at the same time as him and have had all the same physical training and conditioning. It's just a pure talent gap, and it's far larger than Verstappen has over the F1 field.

Verstappen has not established that he has a gap over the field at all. Marquez, on the other hand, clearly has. I'd agree that Senna in the 80s is the closes thing I can think of to what we're seeing with Marc; besting Prost in qualifying by absurd margins in the same car (made Prost look slow).


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