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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 pm 
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Let's mix it up even more. The 10 fastest laps set by people on the lead lap, 5 laps after pitting/start/restart, get a point each. And this means if one driver gets all 10 fastest laps (while satisfying the conditions) then they get all 10 points - you just take the 10 fastest laps (that satisfy the conditions) and award a point for each. This would have material consequences, and would encouraging pushing. Also, drivers who were doing well in a race buy suffered a fluke retirement - say Hamilton Malaysia 2016, or Montoya Brazil 2001 - could potentially still get some reward. It would also mean that if you end up in the situation where a driver chasing down the leader has extra incentive to push.

I'm not going to say I prefer this to the status quo, but I think this would be a more interesting and less gimmicky change than the arbitrary point for fastest lap that's been implemented.


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:46 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Perhaps because he had the best car for many years in succession? (Runs and hides)

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Perhaps because he had the best car for many years in succession? (Runs and hides)

Maybe more because of 2017 and 2018?

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Let's mix it up even more. The 10 fastest laps set by people on the lead lap, 5 laps after pitting/start/restart, get a point each. And this means if one driver gets all 10 fastest laps (while satisfying the conditions) then they get all 10 points - you just take the 10 fastest laps (that satisfy the conditions) and award a point for each. This would have material consequences, and would encouraging pushing. Also, drivers who were doing well in a race buy suffered a fluke retirement - say Hamilton Malaysia 2016, or Montoya Brazil 2001 - could potentially still get some reward. It would also mean that if you end up in the situation where a driver chasing down the leader has extra incentive to push.

I'm not going to say I prefer this to the status quo, but I think this would be a more interesting and less gimmicky change than the arbitrary point for fastest lap that's been implemented.

I like the idea, but I think it would make it very complicated for the casual viewer.


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Perhaps because he had the best car for many years in succession? (Runs and hides)

Maybe more because of 2017 and 2018?

Are you trying to dispute that in the last 5 years (2014-2018) he actually had the best car?

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I find fastest laps as a stat basically meaningless. The reason is that poles, wins. podiums and points are all things that you have to assume a driver will always to try to achieve, no matter what. There's a few exceptions but generally that's OK to assume.

Fastest Laps though... Why would a driver TRY for a fastest lap when there was no incentive? The old adage win at the slowest speed possible. Hamilton, Prost, Senna all have a pretty decent set of fastest laps but I'm sure they would have a lot more if they had reason to set one. Equally Vettel is known to go for it just for the hell of it even when it gains him nothing in terms of points or positions.

You have basically now have what is it - 400 or something races where we have a fastest lap recorded, but that doesn't mean another driver couldn't have gone quicker if they had wanted/needed to.

I'm not following your last point Dolo. Yes, others could have gone for the fastest, but didn't. So what does that prove/mean?

The incentive for the fastest lap would be the 1 point gained I guess. And bragging rights!


my point is that we have a stat that is a bit meaningless - driver x has twice as many fastest laps as driver Y - doesn't really signify anything unless you know that both drivers X and Y were both trying for fastest lap.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Let's mix it up even more. The 10 fastest laps set by people on the lead lap, 5 laps after pitting/start/restart, get a point each. And this means if one driver gets all 10 fastest laps (while satisfying the conditions) then they get all 10 points - you just take the 10 fastest laps (that satisfy the conditions) and award a point for each. This would have material consequences, and would encouraging pushing. Also, drivers who were doing well in a race buy suffered a fluke retirement - say Hamilton Malaysia 2016, or Montoya Brazil 2001 - could potentially still get some reward. It would also mean that if you end up in the situation where a driver chasing down the leader has extra incentive to push.

I'm not going to say I prefer this to the status quo, but I think this would be a more interesting and less gimmicky change than the arbitrary point for fastest lap that's been implemented.

IMHO a driver that failed to finish shouldn't be eligible for those points. Or at least complete 95% of the laps, or what ever it is now needed to be classified as a finisher.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Perhaps because he had the best car for many years in succession? (Runs and hides)

Maybe more because of 2017 and 2018?

Are you trying to dispute that in the last 5 years (2014-2018) he actually had the best car?



Lets just leave that there please - we've had more than enough threads on the matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Perhaps because he had the best car for many years in succession? (Runs and hides)

Maybe more because of 2017 and 2018?

Are you trying to dispute that in the last 5 years (2014-2018) he actually had the best car?

Please, for the love of all things sacred, don't turn this into yet another Hamilton thread!

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:17 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I find fastest laps as a stat basically meaningless. The reason is that poles, wins. podiums and points are all things that you have to assume a driver will always to try to achieve, no matter what. There's a few exceptions but generally that's OK to assume.

Fastest Laps though... Why would a driver TRY for a fastest lap when there was no incentive? The old adage win at the slowest speed possible. Hamilton, Prost, Senna all have a pretty decent set of fastest laps but I'm sure they would have a lot more if they had reason to set one. Equally Vettel is known to go for it just for the hell of it even when it gains him nothing in terms of points or positions.

You have basically now have what is it - 400 or something races where we have a fastest lap recorded, but that doesn't mean another driver couldn't have gone quicker if they had wanted/needed to.

I'm not following your last point Dolo. Yes, others could have gone for the fastest, but didn't. So what does that prove/mean?

The incentive for the fastest lap would be the 1 point gained I guess. And bragging rights!


my point is that we have a stat that is a bit meaningless - driver x has twice as many fastest laps as driver Y - doesn't really signify anything unless you know that both drivers X and Y were both trying for fastest lap.

Well, that;s the point, isn't it? That from now on they will go for it (hopefully!)


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:12 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Let's mix it up even more. The 10 fastest laps set by people on the lead lap, 5 laps after pitting/start/restart, get a point each. And this means if one driver gets all 10 fastest laps (while satisfying the conditions) then they get all 10 points - you just take the 10 fastest laps (that satisfy the conditions) and award a point for each. This would have material consequences, and would encouraging pushing. Also, drivers who were doing well in a race buy suffered a fluke retirement - say Hamilton Malaysia 2016, or Montoya Brazil 2001 - could potentially still get some reward. It would also mean that if you end up in the situation where a driver chasing down the leader has extra incentive to push.

I'm not going to say I prefer this to the status quo, but I think this would be a more interesting and less gimmicky change than the arbitrary point for fastest lap that's been implemented.

IMHO a driver that failed to finish shouldn't be eligible for those points. Or at least complete 95% of the laps, or what ever it is now needed to be classified as a finisher.

That's a good point, I mean, most fastest laps are set towards the end of the race anyway, due to fuel levels going down, so I wasn't antipating scenarios where a driver would set a top 10 fastest lap and not be involved in a substantial portion of a race.

Maybe Barcelona 2010, where Hamilton had a wheel rim failure on the penultimate lap in second place, is a better example of what I was envisaging.

Siao7 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Let's mix it up even more. The 10 fastest laps set by people on the lead lap, 5 laps after pitting/start/restart, get a point each. And this means if one driver gets all 10 fastest laps (while satisfying the conditions) then they get all 10 points - you just take the 10 fastest laps (that satisfy the conditions) and award a point for each. This would have material consequences, and would encouraging pushing. Also, drivers who were doing well in a race buy suffered a fluke retirement - say Hamilton Malaysia 2016, or Montoya Brazil 2001 - could potentially still get some reward. It would also mean that if you end up in the situation where a driver chasing down the leader has extra incentive to push.

I'm not going to say I prefer this to the status quo, but I think this would be a more interesting and less gimmicky change than the arbitrary point for fastest lap that's been implemented.

I like the idea, but I think it would make it very complicated for the casual viewer.

Well, I think that for the average viewer it would just be explained as "Adding to their position points, Vettel got 5 fastest laps points, Hamilton 2, Ricciardo, LeClerc and Verstappen 1, taking their tallies to 23, 27, 11, 16 and 13 respectively."

Anyone who wants to dig into the detail and see drivers whose laps didn't count due to not being countable, would already understand the system.

It could also add some interest to the commentating, with the commentators saying "Bottas has made a late pitstop, he's still on the lead lap which means in 5 laps time he'll be able to start targetting some of Vettel's fastest laps, and swing the balance in favour of Hamilton"

Also, thinking about it, it could lead to some interesting tactics, where Mercedes wouldn't want to pit Bottas, because if Hamilton has the 9th / 10th fastest laps and Vettel 4th-8th, he'd take away from Hamilton before taking away from Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 pm 
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Fangio was some driver

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:02 pm 
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Wow, Damon Hill was really fast! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:23 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Another reason why Hamilton is the best driver on the grid perhaps?


Perhaps because he had the best car for many years in succession? (Runs and hides)

Maybe more because of 2017 and 2018?

Are you trying to dispute that in the last 5 years (2014-2018) he actually had the best car?


2014-2016 yes, I'd agree.

2017-2018 that Ferrari was every bit as good, if not better than the Mercedes. Bad decisions from Ferrari and bad driving from Vettel cost them both WDCs imho.

Anyway, I personally think the point for fastest lap is a retarded idea, but hey...who am I...kinda shows how out of touch the FIA is imho...


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:26 am 
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Someone could put in the fastest lap on lap 2 before it starts to rain and he crashes out on lap 3.

Edit: Doh, except he's only eligible if his in the top 10. Well he'd stop anyone else getting the 1 point nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:31 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Someone could put in the fastest lap on lap 2 before it starts to rain and he crashes out on lap 3.

Edit: Doh, except he's only eligible if his in the top 10. Well he'd stop anyone else getting the 1 point nonetheless.


With the Top 10 thing.. does it mean that the point is only awarded if the fastest lap is done by a top 10 finisher? So if it's not, then the point simply isn't awarded ? If so it's all a bit of a joke isn't it?

So many stupid scenarios that they may want to manipulate..

Say Ferrari are running with Leclerc 10th and Vettel 11th, Vettel pops in a fastest lap, but Vettel is in contention for the WDC. Ordering the drivers to switch positions now means Leclerc score 0 instead of 1, Vettel scores 2 instead of 0 and the team still only score 1.

OR

Leclerc is in 10th with fastest lap and is therefore on for 2 pts, the swap now means Vettel gains only 1 but Leclerc loses both...

Brilliant.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:34 am 
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what if the race is stopped before half way and only scores half points - does the fastest lap still get awarded and if so it sit still a full point?

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:39 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Someone could put in the fastest lap on lap 2 before it starts to rain and he crashes out on lap 3.

Edit: Doh, except he's only eligible if his in the top 10. Well he'd stop anyone else getting the 1 point nonetheless.


With the Top 10 thing.. does it mean that the point is only awarded if the fastest lap is done by a top 10 finisher? So if it's not, then the point simply isn't awarded ? If so it's all a bit of a joke isn't it?

So many stupid scenarios that they may want to manipulate..

Say Ferrari are running with Leclerc 10th and Vettel 11th, Vettel pops in a fastest lap, but Vettel is in contention for the WDC. Ordering the drivers to switch positions now means Leclerc score 0 instead of 1, Vettel scores 2 instead of 0 and the team still only score 1.

OR

Leclerc is in 10th with fastest lap and is therefore on for 2 pts, the swap now means Vettel gains only 1 but Leclerc loses both...

Brilliant.

Yes that's exactly how it goes if I understood it correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
what if the race is stopped before half way and only scores half points - does the fastest lap still get awarded and if so it sit still a full point?

Good question, I've no idea. Haven't checked if the full regulations regarding the fast lap point are somewhere to be found.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:48 am 
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I don't think the fastest lap stat means anything at all any more. It might start to mean something again with a point up for grabs.

TBH as with all stats, they don't tell the whole picture.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:52 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I don't think the fastest lap stat means anything at all any more. It might start to mean something again with a point up for grabs.

TBH as with all stats, they don't tell the whole picture.

Yes it was only the last few years that fastest laps were pointless. In the beginning they awarded points, then they didn't award points but fastest laps at least were indicative of the raw pace, then they weren't even that, and now they're awarding points again and maybe as a result of that they'll be a bit more indicative of pace once again.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:54 am 
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Presumably it's done on the classified position i.e you can have a driver classified 10th but doesn't actually complete the race. I'm assuming that if that driver scores the fast, that still counts?

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:57 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I don't think the fastest lap stat means anything at all any more. It might start to mean something again with a point up for grabs.

TBH as with all stats, they don't tell the whole picture.

Yes it was only the last few years that fastest laps were pointless. In the beginning they awarded points, then they didn't award points but fastest laps at least were indicative of the raw pace, then they weren't even that, and now they're awarding points again and maybe as a result of that they'll be a bit more indicative of pace once again.


Fastest lap hasn't scored points since 1959!

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:41 pm 
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What if the driver who scores for fastest lap is subsequently disqualified - presumably they lose the f lap point as well, but would that mean the person with the next fastest inherits the point as happens with the WDC points?

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:24 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
What if the driver who scores for fastest lap is subsequently disqualified - presumably they lose the f lap point as well, but would that mean the person with the next fastest inherits the point as happens with the WDC points?


or imagine driver who finishes 11th gets fastest lap but unlucky as he not in top 10, but then the driver who finished P10 is DSQ, does he then get both points?

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:49 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
What if the driver who scores for fastest lap is subsequently disqualified - presumably they lose the f lap point as well, but would that mean the person with the next fastest inherits the point as happens with the WDC points?


or imagine driver who finishes 11th gets fastest lap but unlucky as he not in top 10, but then the driver who finished P10 is DSQ, does he then get both points?

In the second case yes as his classification would become 10th. The former situation could provoke debate. I would imagine their fastest laps would not count - has there been a case where a driver who set the fastest lap later got DSQ? If so did they lose that statistic?

It's my personal opinion that disqualification, should mean your fastest lap doesn't count, for example if the car was 10kg underweight, clearly it would be ridiculous to count their fastest lap in an illegal car.


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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:06 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I don't think the fastest lap stat means anything at all any more. It might start to mean something again with a point up for grabs.

TBH as with all stats, they don't tell the whole picture.

Yes it was only the last few years that fastest laps were pointless. In the beginning they awarded points, then they didn't award points but fastest laps at least were indicative of the raw pace, then they weren't even that, and now they're awarding points again and maybe as a result of that they'll be a bit more indicative of pace once again.


Fastest lap hasn't scored points since 1959!

Maybe pointless was the wrong choice of words for "not have any meaning" when discussing actual points, it gets very confusing :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:59 am 
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and another scenario highlighted by Horner! "With the fastest lap, we were even wondering if we take it with Pierre, who was not in the top 10, just to take it away from anyone else"..

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:39 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
and another scenario highlighted by Horner! "With the fastest lap, we were even wondering if we take it with Pierre, who was not in the top 10, just to take it away from anyone else"..
I'm glad he said this, and that it happened during the first race with this silly rule in place. I hope they drop it soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Fastest lap stats
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:20 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
and another scenario highlighted by Horner! "With the fastest lap, we were even wondering if we take it with Pierre, who was not in the top 10, just to take it away from anyone else"..
I'm glad he said this, and that it happened during the first race with this silly rule in place. I hope they drop it soon.


The problem is that FIA is incompetent. So, I doubt very much that it'll be removed.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:58 pm 
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I must admit that, while I was opposed to this idea on an ideological level, in practice it did seem to add something to the entertainment value of the race. The drivers seemed very conscious of that point up for grabs and they went for it. If they continue to care about it that much, I can see it making things more interesting overall.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Yeah what I was a little surprised by is how many people actually cared for it, and cars that were on old tires were still setting fastest laps. A testament to this year's tires perhaps being a lot more durable than what Pirelli have had before. Ferrari didn't even bother though even though they had a free pit stop and could have claimed it easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Point for fastest pit stop next?

Shortest total pit time for lead lap finishers - especially when Mother Nature decides to use her fickle finger of fate.

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kleefton wrote:
Yeah what I was a little surprised by is how many people actually cared for it, and cars that were on old tires were still setting fastest laps. A testament to this year's tires perhaps being a lot more durable than what Pirelli have had before. Ferrari didn't even bother though even though they had a free pit stop and could have claimed it easily.

And with that pit stop they could have had a gun failure or some other form if pit stop malady.

What is Newton's Law of Motion - bodies in motion tend to stay in motion, bodies that are stopped tend to stay stopped. Pit Stops are not automatic.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:22 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
And with that pit stop they could have had a gun failure or some other form if pit stop malady.


We heard exactly that reasoning from Mercedes in declining to bring in Bottas even though he had a clear gap to Hamilton. They don't see earning one extra point worth putting the other 25 at risk. However, I would like to see teams roll the dice more. How often do you have a problem with a pit stop? How often does a problem with a pit stop cause retirement of the car, or a big enough delay that they would drop out of the points? I feel like Mercedes' success rate is great enough that it would have been a safe gamble. Certain other teams, it would have been a lot riskier. With Ferrari, I'm wondering if they felt they wouldn't have had the pace to challenge even if they did have fresh rubber.


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I remember Canada 1997. Mclaren brought Coulthard in to change tyres late in the race. He was leading and had a pit stop in hand. They didn't need to do it but thought they may as well. He stalled twice and came out 7th, outside the points.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:06 pm
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Question :
If a driver sets the fastest lap but then retires on the last lap, does the point go to the person who set the next quickest lap but is still running?
Also, does the same rule apply if the driver is, say 9th, and sets the fastest lap then spins and drops out of the top 10 but still finishes?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:45 pm 
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cmberry20 wrote:
Question :
If a driver sets the fastest lap but then retires on the last lap, does the point go to the person who set the next quickest lap but is still running?
Also, does the same rule apply if the driver is, say 9th, and sets the fastest lap then spins and drops out of the top 10 but still finishes?


The bonus point is only awarded if a driver does the fastest lap of the race and is classified in the top 10.

So in scenario one, it would depend entirely on whether the driver was still classified in the top 10 or not. Theoretically they could be - if they were running in 5th and everyone up to 7th had been lapped, even if they didn't complete the final lap they would fall no lower than 6th (by virtue of the lapped cars doing one lap less). However, if they retired and were classified 11th or lower, they wouldn't receive the extra point.

In scenario two, no driver would be awarded the bonus point.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Fair enough. I didn't know if the point had to be rewarded every race to someone.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I must admit that, while I was opposed to this idea on an ideological level, in practice it did seem to add something to the entertainment value of the race. The drivers seemed very conscious of that point up for grabs and they went for it. If they continue to care about it that much, I can see it making things more interesting overall.

Yeah I must say it did add something to the race.

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