planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:04 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
Option or Prime wrote:
Perhaps because that is the connection that people make.

In team games senior players can be seen to represent the team, they are leaders. Folau is a leader in his National team. He already knew the views of his team mates from previous incidents. Yet he still posted similar sentiments.
Australian Rugby clearly sees that his comments have tainted the sport and are taking steps to repair the damage. Your default position seems different to everyone else's.

The statement just shows he doesn't understand why peoples sexuality can be different. Whether you accept a connection is made or not Rugby Australia believe there is one.

"He does not speak for the game with his recent social media posts," the governing bodies said.

They have repeatedly tried to talk to him without success then issued this as a statement. He is making a stand.

"Israel has failed to understand that the expectation of him as a Rugby Australia and NSW Waratahs employee is that he cannot share material on social media that condemns, vilifies or discriminates against people on the basis of their sexuality."


Do you honestly think anyone will read his post and think he speaks for all of Australia Rugby? Even if there is a tiny possibility "He does not speak for the game with his recent social media posts" makes it perfectly clear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1167
Location: UK
I don't get this.

A leading international sportsman goes on a social media that can be seen all round the world making a homophobic comment and we are expected to believe that NO connection will be made to his sport! That is how he became known in the first place.

I am only posting on here because I know of his existence through that sport. It's not me alone making the connection. Social media is alive with this. Prime ministers are making the same connection. The connection is inevitable.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 210
Yeah I don't really get how this isn't particularly standard. Every company I've worked for has pretty strict guidelines on acceptable social media use and "gays will burn in hell" tends to cross a line.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7839
Option or Prime wrote:
I don't get this.

A leading international sportsman goes on a social media that can be seen all round the world making a homophobic comment and we are expected to believe that NO connection will be made to his sport! That is how he became known in the first place.

I am only posting on here because I know of his existence through that sport. It's not me alone making the connection. Social media is alive with this. Prime ministers are making the same connection. The connection is inevitable.

I'm afraid I dont either. Genuine question so I'm sure were on the same page here - what connection are people making? That because he is homophobic the sport is homophobic? That his employers are homophobic? That his teammates are homophobic?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9622
If you think gays will burn in hell or that all infidels should die or whatever then please keep your opinion to yourself.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1816
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Now the mob has their claws in, time for the media to whip up the frenzy.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/rugby/vision-emerges-of-israel-folau-saying-christmas-easter-wrong/f599f333-1705-4fa3-9914-7a27fa5da03a

"In the video from one of his sermons, the Wallabies’ star takes aim at “man-made” traditions during Christmas and Easter.
“Christmas and Easter, that’s man-made,” Folau says."


"The latest revelations regarding Folau’s view on faith and religion is set to create more of a wedge between the rugby star and the public. It’s said he’s tried to recruit teammates to attend his church."

Is there anyone left on the face of the planet, with the possible exception of Ken Ham, who honestly believes Christmas & Easter are really anything other than Pagan traditions adopted by Christianity?

As for Folau trying to recruit teammates. I can't believe it. A church goer trying to recruit people? Will the religious community stop at nothing in an attempt to pack the pews? Give me a break. I've lost count of the hours I've spent on my front door step deep in discussions with good folk going door to door "spreadin the word" & offering up the latest edition of WatchTower.

Well anyway, i'm now convinced. That does it for me.


Image
http://i.imgur.com/dJKhiDp.jpg

_________________
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Britain- 19) - 128 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 330 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1167
Location: UK
I really don't want to pursue this strongly but I though an argument was being made that Rugby Australia had no right to sack him because he was expressing his own views and there was no connection to Australian or state rugby. I am saying it inevitable that what he says will reflect on the sport.

Through the sport of Rugby Union I've learnt the value of tolerance, respect and compassion and I think Rugby Australia are protecting those values.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7839
Option or Prime wrote:
I really don't want to pursue this strongly but I though an argument was being made that Rugby Australia had no right to sack him because he was expressing his own views and there was no connection to Australian or state rugby. I am saying it inevitable that what he says will reflect on the sport.

Through the sport of Rugby Union I've learnt the value of tolerance, respect and compassion and I think Rugby Australia are protecting those values.


Fair enough, I'm happy to drop it if you dont want to continue, just to answer your points above though:

The first paragraph- I dont agree that it does reflect on rugby, I dont see why any reasonable person would take what one individual says to be reflective of anyone else within that sport. In any large group of people there are going to be a wide variety of people who think differently. I'd be shocked if there wernt homophobic people in Rugby, or F1 or any other sport with thousands of people involved.

Second paragraph - I don't think this does anything to actually protect those values, but even if it did it would be at the expense of free expression and that's a red line for me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1167
Location: UK
BF11, we disagree and that's fine. I feel there is a connection and my red line is when free expression promotes "hate".

I actually think allowing free expression in religion has lead to indoctrination and implies religion is responsible enough to limit responses, for me it fails repeatedly.

I respect your views though, I suspect this topic will run and run!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 210
Not OP, but not doing anything suggests imo to a lot of people, a willingness to tolerate homophobia due to talent. Hard to imagine that some no name more replaceable player lasts this long in comparison saying the same stuff. Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of consequences, how else do you remove something undesirable other than trying to make it socially unacceptable?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7839
medgar wrote:
Not OP, but not doing anything suggests imo to a lot of people, a willingness to tolerate homophobia due to talent. Hard to imagine that some no name more replaceable player lasts this long in comparison saying the same stuff. Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of consequences, how else do you remove something undesirable other than trying to make it socially unacceptable?

I think that's exactly what it means, it has to otherwise its meaningless. If it doesn't mean the freedom to express yourself without facing consequences then all it means is 'we wont stop the words from physically leaving your mouth' which of course is impossible anyway.

If someone says 'you can say it, but then you'll be jailed' or 'you can say it, but then you'll be fired' that's not allowing free expression, it's an attempt to stifle it, yet you could simply say it is the consequence under the definition you gave.

Of course there will always be consequences for things you say. A large number of people now think this guy is a walking, talking penis and will treat him appropriately. However being able to lose your job for stating an opinion in your own time is not a reasonable consequence, because it will limit freedom of expression. I'm of the opinion that the right to express your opinions needs to become enshrined in employment law, especially now with social media.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7839
Option or Prime wrote:
BF11, we disagree and that's fine. I feel there is a connection and my red line is when free expression promotes "hate".

I actually think allowing free expression in religion has lead to indoctrination and implies religion is responsible enough to limit responses, for me it fails repeatedly.

I respect your views though, I suspect this topic will run and run!

Oh I imagine it will :lol:

You make the case well and I absolutely respect where you're coming from but for me freedom of speech by definition has to include the freedom to hate. "Freedom of speech is meaningless unless it means the freedom of the person who thinks differently" cant remember who said it but it's a quote that's stuck with me and I think it perfectly sums it up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 210
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
medgar wrote:
Not OP, but not doing anything suggests imo to a lot of people, a willingness to tolerate homophobia due to talent. Hard to imagine that some no name more replaceable player lasts this long in comparison saying the same stuff. Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of consequences, how else do you remove something undesirable other than trying to make it socially unacceptable?

I think that's exactly what it means, it has to otherwise its meaningless. If it doesn't mean the freedom to express yourself without facing consequences then all it means is 'we wont stop the words from physically leaving your mouth' which of course is impossible anyway.

If someone says 'you can say it, but then you'll be jailed' or 'you can say it, but then you'll be fired' that's not allowing free expression, it's an attempt to stifle it, yet you could simply say it is the consequence under the definition you gave.

Of course there will always be consequences for things you say. A large number of people now think this guy is a walking, talking penis and will treat him appropriately. However being able to lose your job for stating an opinion in your own time is not a reasonable consequence, because it will limit freedom of expression. I'm of the opinion that the right to express your opinions needs to become enshrined in employment law, especially now with social media.


I think companies or sports or whatever equally have a right to set their own standards for employees to follow. He knew of the consequence prior to signing his new contract and then breached that contract. Completely disagree on the last part, the damage to employers who were forced against their will to hire or keep someone utterly toxic would be a disaster waiting to happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
medgar wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
medgar wrote:
Not OP, but not doing anything suggests imo to a lot of people, a willingness to tolerate homophobia due to talent. Hard to imagine that some no name more replaceable player lasts this long in comparison saying the same stuff. Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of consequences, how else do you remove something undesirable other than trying to make it socially unacceptable?

I think that's exactly what it means, it has to otherwise its meaningless. If it doesn't mean the freedom to express yourself without facing consequences then all it means is 'we wont stop the words from physically leaving your mouth' which of course is impossible anyway.

If someone says 'you can say it, but then you'll be jailed' or 'you can say it, but then you'll be fired' that's not allowing free expression, it's an attempt to stifle it, yet you could simply say it is the consequence under the definition you gave.

Of course there will always be consequences for things you say. A large number of people now think this guy is a walking, talking penis and will treat him appropriately. However being able to lose your job for stating an opinion in your own time is not a reasonable consequence, because it will limit freedom of expression. I'm of the opinion that the right to express your opinions needs to become enshrined in employment law, especially now with social media.


I think companies or sports or whatever equally have a right to set their own standards for employees to follow. He knew of the consequence prior to signing his new contract and then breached that contract. Completely disagree on the last part, the damage to employers who were forced against their will to hire or keep someone utterly toxic would be a disaster waiting to happen.


If it was known you couldn't fire someone for their views shared on their own time why would it damage employers? Everyone would be in the same boat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:35 pm
Posts: 210
mikeyg123 wrote:
medgar wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
medgar wrote:
Not OP, but not doing anything suggests imo to a lot of people, a willingness to tolerate homophobia due to talent. Hard to imagine that some no name more replaceable player lasts this long in comparison saying the same stuff. Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of consequences, how else do you remove something undesirable other than trying to make it socially unacceptable?

I think that's exactly what it means, it has to otherwise its meaningless. If it doesn't mean the freedom to express yourself without facing consequences then all it means is 'we wont stop the words from physically leaving your mouth' which of course is impossible anyway.

If someone says 'you can say it, but then you'll be jailed' or 'you can say it, but then you'll be fired' that's not allowing free expression, it's an attempt to stifle it, yet you could simply say it is the consequence under the definition you gave.

Of course there will always be consequences for things you say. A large number of people now think this guy is a walking, talking penis and will treat him appropriately. However being able to lose your job for stating an opinion in your own time is not a reasonable consequence, because it will limit freedom of expression. I'm of the opinion that the right to express your opinions needs to become enshrined in employment law, especially now with social media.


I think companies or sports or whatever equally have a right to set their own standards for employees to follow. He knew of the consequence prior to signing his new contract and then breached that contract. Completely disagree on the last part, the damage to employers who were forced against their will to hire or keep someone utterly toxic would be a disaster waiting to happen.


If it was known you couldn't fire someone for their views shared on their own time why would it damage employers? Everyone would be in the same boat.


At the very least I think it'd be problematic for morale, you really don't see any issues if companies were forced to keep people who were racist, homophobic, sexist or whatever? I guess the grey area is where opinion in someone's own time crosses into the workplace. Social media is pretty public these days, particularly for someone famous and the lines get blurred. If you're going to put yourself out there in that way I think employers should have a right act to accordingly if they feel it will damage their own reputation. As far as I know Folau has stated he'd be willing to give up rugby in favour of his own beliefs, I don't have much issue with that. Fwiw if they decided to tolerate it further I'd have no issue with that either but wouldn't blame others if they decided to distance themselves from RA accordingly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 3716
This has become an entirely academic debate and F1 have already given their views about this, so time to close this thread I think. It's veered off topic anyway.

_________________
AlienTurnedHuman wrote:
Eurytus probably thought he was God. At least until he was banned. Which means if he was God, it makes me very scared of PF1-Mod.

Please report forum problems to us, via PM/Feedback Thread. Screenshots will also help.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group