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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:34 pm 
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It seems The Redbull car is a strong maybe stronger racer with the Honda engine. Has Daniel Ricciardo joined and exited Redbull at exactly the wrong moments? Entering just after they finished dominance with the Renault v8s and leaving in fear of an awful Honda? And for that matter, has Alonso helped McLaren divorce Honda, and then left F1 himself just as Honda have come good?

Renault are looking mostly average at the moment. I hope DR knows of new developments we don't yet. He is a fine driver.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:55 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
It seems The Redbull car is a strong maybe stronger racer with the Honda engine. Has Daniel Ricciardo joined and exited Redbull at exactly the wrong moments? Entering just after they finished dominance with the Renault v8s and leaving in fear of an awful Honda? And for that matter, has Alonso helped McLaren divorce Honda, and then left F1 himself just as Honda have come good?

Renault are looking mostly average at the moment. I hope DR knows of new developments we don't yet. He is a fine driver.

Ricciardo still has time. He'll turn 30 this year but he can easily compete for another 7-8 years. I don't think Renault will ever provide him a WDC-capable car but his real opportunity might be when Hamilton and/or Vettel retires from the sport. Hamilton, in particular might decide to walk away within the next few years. Perhaps that would lead to someone like Max moving to Mercedes but not if the Red Bull car has caught up by then (which is entirely possible). Even if Max does take the seat, there would be an opening at Red Bull. If Ferrari don't manage to break through and win a title soon, they might also choose to go in a different direction (though they don't seem particularly sold on Daniel).

It's true though. He might never have a legitimate title shot in his entire career and that would be terrible unfortunate. He wouldn't be the first though.

As for the thing about Alonso, Honda and Mclaren; it's a bit more complicated than that. I think that, in the grand scheme of things, McLaren chose Alonso over Honda. Alonso's time was short as an aging star and he didn't have the patience to wait for Honda to come good. Mclaren chose to respond to his needs rather than Honda's need for more time. Ultimately, they made the wrong choice. They never had a car that was strong enough to behave with the sense of urgency that Alonso wanted. Because of their lack of competitiveness; they were actually never a good fit for Alonso the second time around but rather than accept that and make the appropriate decisions for where they actually stood; they continued to press on in denial until reality hit them in the face last year. Having now lost their works team status AND Alonso, they have no real choice but to take their medicine.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:11 am 
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I look a Ricci as wrong car, wrong time.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:50 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
It seems The Redbull car is a strong maybe stronger racer with the Honda engine. Has Daniel Ricciardo joined and exited Redbull at exactly the wrong moments? Entering just after they finished dominance with the Renault v8s and leaving in fear of an awful Honda? And for that matter, has Alonso helped McLaren divorce Honda, and then left F1 himself just as Honda have come good?

Renault are looking mostly average at the moment. I hope DR knows of new developments we don't yet. He is a fine driver.

I always thought that Ricciardo made the wrong decision in respect to having a car capable of winning races and being on the podium, if Verstappen wasn't there I think he would have stayed.

Honda were never going to come good at McLaren because of the blame culture were everything was Honda's fault whilst McLaren kept convincing people they were a top team, together they were never going to achieve what Red Bull have already achieved.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:04 am 
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Jeez it's been 1 race here people.

Lets at least give him a few races before we crucify the bloke. Granted it wasn't the start I was hoping for from both Ricciardo & Renault, but it's early days.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:27 am 
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Ricciardo is definitely in the wrong car. He needs to get really lucky to get podium as the top3 teams are quite ahead of the midfield. Having said that he should finish P7 this year and needs to quickly adapt to the new team. He must beat Hulk comfortably who is a pretty good qualifier.

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Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:52 am 
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Joining a works team is never a "bad" decision - they have cash, they have their own engines and they have a big stake in the sport so can always become title challengers at a point, obviously he isn't going to win a title this year but maybe he is looking to the future, maybe they showed him something he liked - remember everyone said the exact same think about Lewis, "he'll never win again" blah blah and now he's a 5x WDC


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:45 am 
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Ricciardo can still get an opportunity at a WDC, but he absolutely has to beat Hulkenberg or his reputation will take a serious hit.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:18 am 
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How dare OP use that line for anyone else........ That has been copyrighted by Alonso long time back :-P

On the serious note. Dan knew this was going to happen. He was very clear before start of this season during interviews that he does not think they are in place to challenge RedBull on raw pace this season. This has always been vision 2021.

Redbull wont win championship this year. SO there is not much to lose to be honest. Unless he had doubts about Redbull commitment beyond 2020, he would not have moved.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:04 am 
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The biggest problem for Daniel is that there are a lot of talented drivers coming through who are about a decade younger than him.

Verstappen obviously
Leclerc
Russell
Norris

Ferrari gave Leclerc the nod over Ricciardo. I also think that Russell will eventually drive for Mercedes. I could see Ricciardo get squeezed out in all of this.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:39 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
The biggest problem for Daniel is that there are a lot of talented drivers coming through who are about a decade younger than him.

Verstappen obviously
Leclerc
Russell
Norris

Ferrari gave Leclerc the nod over Ricciardo. I also think that Russell will eventually drive for Mercedes. I could see Ricciardo get squeezed out in all of this.


You forgot Ocon

This is one reason why I was keen for him to sign for Renault.

It was evident RB were beginning to lean towards Verstappen so I felt if he had the chance at Renault he had to go now. In 2 years he'll be old news and his bargaining power will be significantly reduced when put up against the names above.

Ricciardo will only get squeezed if he can't beat Hulkenberg and beat him well.

So who out of the above can we see Renault signing if Ricciardo fails? I can only see Norris maybe being an option.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:08 am 
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Or even wrong driver?

If was truly top drawer he'd have had the better of Verstappen and wouldn't have felt the need to leave Red Bull. Sure he's certainly one of the better drivers on the grid but I don't see him as being much more than what Webber was, and I don't think a failure to capture a WDC should necessarily be considered a career of underachievement.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:17 am 
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j man wrote:
If was truly top drawer he'd have had the better of Verstappen and wouldn't have felt the need to leave Red Bull. Sure he's certainly one of the better drivers on the grid but I don't see him as being much more than what Webber was, and I don't think a failure to capture a WDC should necessarily be considered a career of underachievement.

That depends how good Verstappen really is, doesn't it?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:18 pm 
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Not that Maldonado was a good driver, but one of his moves turned out to be just awful. He was at a dreadful williams. Moved to Lotus which had been excellent that year, then turned out to be dreadful when he joined that team. While at the time, the team he had left was suddenly one of the best teams out there. Even if he was a poor driver, if he had remained at Williams in 2014, i think he could have looked better than people thought he was capable of.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:54 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Joining a works team is never a "bad" decision - they have cash, they have their own engines and they have a big stake in the sport so can always become title challengers at a point, obviously he isn't going to win a title this year but maybe he is looking to the future, maybe they showed him something he liked - remember everyone said the exact same think about Lewis, "he'll never win again" blah blah and now he's a 5x WDC

It can be when the team you left is better and they have their own works engine deal.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:00 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
If was truly top drawer he'd have had the better of Verstappen and wouldn't have felt the need to leave Red Bull. Sure he's certainly one of the better drivers on the grid but I don't see him as being much more than what Webber was, and I don't think a failure to capture a WDC should necessarily be considered a career of underachievement.

That depends how good Verstappen really is, doesn't it?

Indeed and relatively speaking we get to find out with how Ricciardo performs against the Hulk.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:01 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I think it's debatable how much money Ricciardo is getting?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:04 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Not that Maldonado was a good driver, but one of his moves turned out to be just awful. He was at a dreadful williams. Moved to Lotus which had been excellent that year, then turned out to be dreadful when he joined that team. While at the time, the team he had left was suddenly one of the best teams out there. Even if he was a poor driver, if he had remained at Williams in 2014, i think he could have looked better than people thought he was capable of.

He would have been up against Bottas though.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:22 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Joining a works team is never a "bad" decision - they have cash, they have their own engines and they have a big stake in the sport so can always become title challengers at a point, obviously he isn't going to win a title this year but maybe he is looking to the future, maybe they showed him something he liked - remember everyone said the exact same think about Lewis, "he'll never win again" blah blah and now he's a 5x WDC

It can be when the team you left is better and they have their own works engine deal.

I agree that Red Bull is a better works team, but I thin Ricciardo knew his stock would keep lowering the more Max beat him, so as far as future prospects go he probably did the best thing possible in running before his credibility plummeted too far. Renault, as the up-and-coming works team, is the best prospect for rehabilitation


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:37 pm 
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He can win with Renault with time needed to develop the car as it is a works team. However it can turn into never unless Renault make some serious restructure with management like McLaren has done. Cyril is too stuck on political fights with other teams rather than focusing on Renault itself.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Joining a works team is never a "bad" decision - they have cash, they have their own engines and they have a big stake in the sport so can always become title challengers at a point, obviously he isn't going to win a title this year but maybe he is looking to the future, maybe they showed him something he liked - remember everyone said the exact same think about Lewis, "he'll never win again" blah blah and now he's a 5x WDC

It can be when the team you left is better and they have their own works engine deal.

I agree that Red Bull is a better works team, but I thin Ricciardo knew his stock would keep lowering the more Max beat him, so as far as future prospects go he probably did the best thing possible in running before his credibility plummeted too far. Renault, as the up-and-coming works team, is the best prospect for rehabilitation

Indeed.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I think it's debatable how much money Ricciardo is getting?


Its been reported in quite a few places its a big pay rise. In the F1 Netlix documentary, immediately after the news breaks, an annoyed Horner is questioning the head of Renault "how are you doing to develop the car when you've spent all your budget on the driver".


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:57 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0

The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.

I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.

Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.

Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0

The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.

I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.

Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.

Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.



Agree completely. There has never been any evidence that Red Bull wanted Vettel to win the championship rather than Webber in 2010.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:14 am 
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Vettel’s car failed 3 times from the lead in 2010 (Bahrain, Australia, Korea) while Webber’s car was bulletproof.

There is one reason and one reason only why Webber failed to win the WDC in 2010: he wasn’t good enough.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:02 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0

The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.

I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.

Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.

Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.


I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:25 am 
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Posts: 15263
Randine wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0

The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.

I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.

Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.

Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.


I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:03 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:08 am 
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Posts: 15263
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/


So Verstappen had one extra retirement and lost a lot more points through retirements. He largely retired from better positions than Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/


So Verstappen had one extra retirement and lost a lot more points through retirements. He largely retired from better positions than Ricciardo.


You said it was him having all the failures in 2017 mikey & that's simply not true. The most unreliable component he had in 2017 was the one between his ears.


As well as having more component failures during races in 2017, Ricciardo also received:

5 place grid penalty in Australia
15 place grid penalty in Britain
25 place grid penalty in Italy
20 place grid penalty in Mexico
10 place grid penalty in Brazil

Total = 75 places

Verstappen received:

20 place grid penalty in Italy
15 place grid penalty in US

Total = 35 places

So if you cancel out Italy in the head to head comparison because they both took penalties there, Ricciardo had 50 place penalties, Verstappen 15.

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Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 330 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:05 am 
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Posts: 25158
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/


So Verstappen had one extra retirement and lost a lot more points through retirements. He largely retired from better positions than Ricciardo.


You said it was him having all the failures in 2017 mikey & that's simply not true. The most unreliable component he had in 2017 was the one between his ears.


As well as having more component failures during races in 2017, Ricciardo also received:

5 place grid penalty in Australia
15 place grid penalty in Britain
25 place grid penalty in Italy
20 place grid penalty in Mexico
10 place grid penalty in Brazil

Total = 75 places

Verstappen received:

20 place grid penalty in Italy
15 place grid penalty in US

Total = 35 places

So if you cancel out Italy in the head to head comparison because they both took penalties there, Ricciardo had 50 place penalties, Verstappen 15.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Verstappen made more errors, nor is anyone making excuses for him. But errors may be written off to experience, while it's a lot harder for a driver to improve his speed. Verstappen has looked quicker than Ricciardo and ultimately he looks like having a considerably higher ceiling than Ricciardo does.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:08 am 
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Posts: 25158
Randine wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0

The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.

I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.

Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.

Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.


I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.

My point is that Max looks quicker than Ricciardo. Experience will eventually iron out mistakes and that will likely make him unassailable (for Ricciardo). Ricciardo's still good, but I think it's hard to conclude anything other than that Verstappen's better


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:24 am 
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Location: Far side of Koozebane
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/


So Verstappen had one extra retirement and lost a lot more points through retirements. He largely retired from better positions than Ricciardo.


You said it was him having all the failures in 2017 mikey & that's simply not true. The most unreliable component he had in 2017 was the one between his ears.


As well as having more component failures during races in 2017, Ricciardo also received:

5 place grid penalty in Australia
15 place grid penalty in Britain
25 place grid penalty in Italy
20 place grid penalty in Mexico
10 place grid penalty in Brazil

Total = 75 places

Verstappen received:

20 place grid penalty in Italy
15 place grid penalty in US

Total = 35 places

So if you cancel out Italy in the head to head comparison because they both took penalties there, Ricciardo had 50 place penalties, Verstappen 15.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Verstappen made more errors, nor is anyone making excuses for him. But errors may be written off to experience, while it's a lot harder for a driver to improve his speed. Verstappen has looked quicker than Ricciardo and ultimately he looks like having a considerably higher ceiling than Ricciardo does.


I won't disagree at all with the last comment, but I don't agree with mikey's assertion that Verstappen was the better driver in 2017.

As for last year, Ricciardo had such abysmal reliability for almost all but the first 5 races, that while most of us, including me, would assume Verstappen was the superior driver, I don't think Ricciardo is as inferior to him as most would think. It's just too hard to get a good gauge on the performance difference between the pair because of Ricciardo's reliability issues.

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Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 330 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:20 pm 
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Posts: 15263
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/


So Verstappen had one extra retirement and lost a lot more points through retirements. He largely retired from better positions than Ricciardo.


You said it was him having all the failures in 2017 mikey & that's simply not true. The most unreliable component he had in 2017 was the one between his ears.


As well as having more component failures during races in 2017, Ricciardo also received:

5 place grid penalty in Australia
15 place grid penalty in Britain
25 place grid penalty in Italy
20 place grid penalty in Mexico
10 place grid penalty in Brazil

Total = 75 places

Verstappen received:

20 place grid penalty in Italy
15 place grid penalty in US

Total = 35 places

So if you cancel out Italy in the head to head comparison because they both took penalties there, Ricciardo had 50 place penalties, Verstappen 15.


My comment was lazy. What I really meant was Verstappen lost more points to Ricciardo because of factors that were not his fault.

I stand by what I said. Verstappen was the better driver in 2017.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Posts: 31524
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel’s car failed 3 times from the lead in 2010 (Bahrain, Australia, Korea) while Webber’s car was bulletproof.

There is one reason and one reason only why Webber failed to win the WDC in 2010: he wasn’t good enough.

Yes he had things in his favour, not unlike Rosberg in 2016, but he failed.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

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Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Posts: 31524
Randine wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Apparently he is on £20 million a year, more than double Red Bull. He went for money and to run from Max. He isn’t significantly less talented than Max but Max is better and has a higher ceiling and Max is Red Bulls darling.

Leaving Red Bull is probably Dans best chance of getting in a Ferrari or Mercedes. If he comfortably beats Hulk he will get one of those drives. He will be too hard to ignore. If he doesn’t, then he will quite possibly never win another race.

I don't think Max being Red Bull's darling had any real (as opposed to imagined) bearing on Ricciardo's chances of success there. It certainly didn't hurt his chances when he went up against Red Bull's then-darling Vettel in 2013. Ricciardo got pretty much thumped by Max last year and it's probable that deep down he knew he didn't have an answer. Every further year he gets beaten on talent - as opposed to any kind of perceived favouritism - will only diminish his chances elsewhere. But memories are very short in F1 and if he beats Hulk then people will quickly forget about his previous beating and he'll have a better chance at the top teams again, as you've said.


Mark Webber experienced it with Vettel, the fact the Webber wasn't backed in the 2010 title run in tells you a lot about how Red Bull operate. Yes it ended out well for Red Bull but it doesn't change the decision and who they wanted to win the title and break records. The same at Mercedes, Mercedes would massively prefer Hamilton to win the title over Bottas and why wouldn't they. Its more records and marketing dream which ultimately sells more cars.

2014, Riccairdo was so much quicker it was not relevant. I don't think Ricciardo was heavily beaten at all last year either. He put in a good account of himself, there was very little between them when both had fully functioning cars. No doubt, Verstappen edges him on talent but they both won 2 races each. Although if Verstappen was a bit less error prone that could have been 4-0

The only thing Mark Webber experienced at Red Bull was him not being good enough. If he hadn't binned it in Korea then he'd have taken the WDC title that year, but the fact he didn't was down to him and him alone. And he qualified atrociously in Abu Dhabi to give himself even more of a mountain to climb. Red Bull gave him everything he needed for the title but Webber didn't deliver.

I don't really see evidence that Mercedes would rather Hamilton win, it's just that he's the most obvious candidate to back as he's a proven winner and if he's given the tools he'll deliver. Bit like the situation at Ferrari today - they'll back Vettel because he's shown he can do it, but they'll still pop the champagne if Leclerc gets it instead. And Ricciardo is extremely marketable, so I can't see any logic in Red Bull not wanting him to do well, either. He just wasn't as good as Max.

Ricciardo was pretty comprehensively beaten IMO. Max made a number of mistakes but in terms of pace and ability it's obvious who was the better driver. If Max hadn't been so impetuous then the gap would have been even bigger - as you say, it could/should have been 4 wins for Max and Ricciardo can probably count his blessings that Max didn't maximise his chances, but at the end of the day Max can work on his mistakes but it's less likely that Ricciardo can find extra speed.

Having said that, Ricciardo's a pretty competent driver, it's just unfortunate for him that he had someone like Max partner him just when it looked like the world was his at Red Bull. But the way things turned out had nothing to do with who Red Bull preferred, just down to which driver performed better.


I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.

Red Bull didn't deliver mainly because of the Renault engine, all these engine retirements he had last season and then he goes and signs up with Renault, that makes a lot of sense?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31524
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Randine wrote:

I think you are giving zero consideration of how circumstances effect driver performance or even effort to say Max thumped Dan.

Dan has been promised a championship winning car for 5 years, and for 5 years Red Bull have not delivered.
Dan was 20 points behind after 6 races with 2 wins to each or Ham, Vettel and Dan.
Red Bull publicly announced they were building the team around Max and then show favouritism by saying each driver was equal to blame in Baku, when most experts thought Max was in the wrong.
Followed up by 8 or so engine retirements, and at other times, he was just nursing the engine home each race when he wasn’t in a good position (so that engine would not jeopardise the next race), Dan could not and did not show anything like what he is capable of in 2018.
Apart from that he beat max in 2016 and 2017 in the driver standings.

Have you ever been overlooked for a promotion at work? Or seen someone around you getting favouritism, whether it be friends earning more, a guy that gets all the girls etc.
We are all human, and to not even factor in the politics going on at Red Bull is very short sighted imho.


Verstappen was the better driver in 2017 as well. It was him having all the failures in 2017.


Ricciardo had 6 retirements in 2017 ( 1 accident caused by Verstappen, 5 technical failures), Verstappen had 7 retirements ( 3 accidents, 4 technical failures), so really Verstappen had better reliability than Ricciardo in 2017 as well.

https://www.racefans.net/2017-f1-season/statistics/retirements-penalties/


So Verstappen had one extra retirement and lost a lot more points through retirements. He largely retired from better positions than Ricciardo.

Indeed that can be easily glossed over when a driver is retiring whilst running behind his teammate.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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