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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Alonso for me is definitely the best driver post Schumacher. I actually think he probably had surpassed Schumacher himself by 06.

Definitely? I would have thought there was at least a question mark between him and Hamilton. After all he failed to beat rookie Hamilton when he was the reigning back to back 2 time world champion. Now from thin air he is just better?

One thing you'll find is that, in this particular forum, anything Alonso has done is worth achievements 10 times as great by other drivers. Claiming Alonso as the best of this generation is like claiming Hakkinen as the best of his IMO. Hamilton is easily the top driver post Schumacher by any reasonable analysis IMO and is the only driver since then that has put himself in the same category as Schumacher, Senna, Clark and Fangio.


10x??? How rich... Coming from one who has made a "career" out of bigging up Lewis and his achievements...maybe even as much as 10x others.
;)
Sandman, you need to understand that there are other fans who also have credible opinions on the subject of drivers in F1. You choose to use the term "reasonable analysis", but it is, by your own post, is YOUR definition of what it means. You come across as though almost any opinion other that your own(or others of similar thoughts) is without value. Lewis has become a very successful driver and I certainly can understand his fans being proud of what he has accomplished, but...in MY opinion, he is not at the level of Schumi, Clark, Senna or Alonso. Again, that is my opinion and as such it is just as valid as those of sandman.

You're welcome to your opinion Blake and I've never said otherwise. It seems that whenever I express my views you take it as an attack on your very sense of self. The thing I do not agree with is that your opinion must always be just as valid as anyone else's. That simply isn't true. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course but the more you can support your opinions with factual evidence, the more valid they become.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
More than anything; to prop Alonso up over Hamilton, you have to ignore the fact that Hamilton bested him as a teammate in his rookie year. You have to ignore the fact that Hamilton has won more than twice as many races and almost 3 times as many titles and has done it against stronger teammates and often strong competition from other teams. You basically have to ignore the fact that there is obviously someone who is contemporaneous with Alonso who has out-performed him.


Never has a tie in points been hyped up to the benefit of one particular driver as the infamous 2007 when two drivers for the same number of WDC points for driving cars that were disqualified for the WCC. How in the neck could F1 have justified that if either Alonso or Lewis had one the WDC? What a mess that would have been.

Yes, Lewis has won more races and more WDCs than has Alonso, but as you are on the subject of others "ignoring" what you see as pertinent facts, you seem perfectly willing to IGNORE the fact that Alonso has not had the dominate rides that Lewis has benefited from the past several years. I seriously doubt that Lewis would have been winning races and WDCs in Alonso's cars either. So has Hamilton really out-performed Alonso as a driver, or just out-scored him (not necessarily the same thing)? Personally, I do not thinks so, hence my rating of Alonso over Lewis.

So in other words, you "think" Alonso would have been able to achieve more if he were in the same cars that Lewis has driven and you don't "think" that Lewis would have done better than Alonso in the same cars that Alonso has driven. Didn't you just chastise bonecrasher for making the same type of argument? An argument based purely on what goes on between your ears and NOT on what happens on the race track?

Also Lewis has not had "dominant rides" the past several years. He had dominant machinery in three seasons and one of them also gave him very poor reliability relative to a very strong teammate. Hamilton has won 3 of his titles against a very competitive Ferrari team (2 of which he has been in the slower car relative to Ferrari). So at a bare minimum, he has won 3 championships in competitive circumstances similar to the ones in which Alonso has won his only 2 championships. For me personally, there just isn't a strong objective argument to say that Alonso belongs higher on the pantheon of greats than Hamilton. Again; I would equate it to placing Hakkinen higher on the list than Schumacher. He was certainly a rival of Michael and he was great in his own right but he simply did not achieve nearly as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It simply does not represent who was best. There is no way to know for sure.


Well I say it does - maybe not 100% exactly, but closer than any other guess. If not, what is your alternative? If you have none, I win by default! :D


My alternative is to watch the races, study accounts from the time and make a judgement. Plenty of drivers who have never won titles are better than those that have.


:thumbup:

See, e.g. Gilles Villeneuve or Ronnie Peterson. Stirling Moss.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Alonso for me is definitely the best driver post Schumacher. I actually think he probably had surpassed Schumacher himself by 06.

Definitely? I would have thought there was at least a question mark between him and Hamilton. After all he failed to beat rookie Hamilton when he was the reigning back to back 2 time world champion. Now from thin air he is just better?

One thing you'll find is that, in this particular forum, anything Alonso has done is worth achievements 10 times as great by other drivers. Claiming Alonso as the best of this generation is like claiming Hakkinen as the best of his IMO. Hamilton is easily the top driver post Schumacher by any reasonable analysis IMO and is the only driver since then that has put himself in the same category as Schumacher, Senna, Clark and Fangio.


10x??? How rich... Coming from one who has made a "career" out of bigging up Lewis and his achievements...maybe even as much as 10x others.
;)
Sandman, you need to understand that there are other fans who also have credible opinions on the subject of drivers in F1. You choose to use the term "reasonable analysis", but it is, by your own post, is YOUR definition of what it means. You come across as though almost any opinion other that your own(or others of similar thoughts) is without value. Lewis has become a very successful driver and I certainly can understand his fans being proud of what he has accomplished, but...in MY opinion, he is not at the level of Schumi, Clark, Senna or Alonso. Again, that is my opinion and as such it is just as valid as those of sandman.

Hamilton is not at the same level as Alonso but Alonso couldn't prove himself better than Hamilton when Hamilton was a rookie, still early days I know but presently it's like saying that Leclerc is not on the same level as Vettel.

You have straight forward facts then you have personal opinion based purely on personal opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:15 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
More than anything; to prop Alonso up over Hamilton, you have to ignore the fact that Hamilton bested him as a teammate in his rookie year. You have to ignore the fact that Hamilton has won more than twice as many races and almost 3 times as many titles and has done it against stronger teammates and often strong competition from other teams. You basically have to ignore the fact that there is obviously someone who is contemporaneous with Alonso who has out-performed him.


Never has a tie in points been hyped up to the benefit of one particular driver as the infamous 2007 when two drivers for the same number of WDC points for driving cars that were disqualified for the WCC. How in the neck could F1 have justified that if either Alonso or Lewis had one the WDC? What a mess that would have been.

Yes, Lewis has won more races and more WDCs than has Alonso, but as you are on the subject of others "ignoring" what you see as pertinent facts, you seem perfectly willing to IGNORE the fact that Alonso has not had the dominate rides that Lewis has benefited from the past several years. I seriously doubt that Lewis would have been winning races and WDCs in Alonso's cars either. So has Hamilton really out-performed Alonso as a driver, or just out-scored him (not necessarily the same thing)? Personally, I do not thinks so, hence my rating of Alonso over Lewis.

Whilst you want to ignore the fact that Alonso couldn't beat Hamilton when they are in the same team yet still say he is a level above Hamilton.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, Just like it was a 1/17 of his entire career.

A time when he was tested by a driver on the same level as him although you yourself see Alonso as being a tier above Hamilton.


I think throughout their careers Alonso has been the better driver yes. That doesn't mean that Hamilton at his best is always going to be inferior to Alonso of course. This is an opinion built over many years.

If you asked me is Hamilton right now driving as well as Alonso at his best then that would be closer.

Put it like this. If I had to make a combined top 10 of seasons performances from Hamilton and Alonso most would be from Alonso.

You don't take into account that Alonso has had weaker teammates though beating a succession of rookies and Massa plus all the #1 advantages that he had, the only driver Alonso couldn't steam roll post Hamilton was Button and that basically is the level of teammates that Hamilton has had to deal with with no #1 advantages.

This is were I will always differ with posters who think that they can judge driver performance better when they drive different cars rather than when they are actually teammates, hence you can basically totally dismiss the 2007 season.


Of course I take it into account. I take it all into account.

I don't dismiss the 2007 season either. I just don't think the argument starts and ends there.

Bottom line I would put Alonso at 6th of all time and Hamilton 8th so it's not like I think there is a huge chasm.

There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:48 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You don't take into account that Alonso has had weaker teammates though beating a succession of rookies and Massa plus all the #1 advantages that he had, the only driver Alonso couldn't steam roll post Hamilton was Button and that basically is the level of teammates that Hamilton has had to deal with with no #1 advantages.

This is were I will always differ with posters who think that they can judge driver performance better when they drive different cars rather than when they are actually teammates, hence you can basically totally dismiss the 2007 season.


Poker,
A couple of things...while you accuse others of dismissing the 2007 season, I think you and some others do just the opposite and put too much on 2007. To read some of the "justifications", one would think Lewis kicked Alonso up and down the track...he didn't, no matter how you try to portray it. Lewis didn't beat Alonso on points and he likely benefited by the turmoil within the team concerning Alonso's side of the garage and management. While a lot of that turmoil falls on Nando's shoulders not all of it does and even if it did you can't wash away the on track driving of Alonso because of it.

Alonso's teammates were a succession of rookies and Massa? Two points...Massa, in my opinion, was a much better driver than you give him credit for. And Alonso did not have the rather significant advantage of entering F1 in one of the best two cars on the grid...few drivers have. BTW, are you thinking Lewis has never had "#1" advantages in F1 ? Seriously?

I am one who believes that Alonso was the best driver on the track over the past dozen years and isn't that what the thread is about...best driver? As a driver, I believe that the talent of Alonso was/is superior to that of Lewis or Seb. It is an opinion, just as yours are...and just as valid.

I put too much emphasis on believing that the 2007 season shows that Hamilton and Alonso were at a similar level because you believe it proved nothing given that you believe that Alonso is at a higher level than Hamilton.

Massa had a career record of 3-12 against teammates, Bottas beat Massa 3 years on the bounce so I'm confident Hamilton would have had no problems with him but perhaps not #1 status before each season had begun which Alonso engineered into the team after Hockenheim 2010.

I don't understand the silver spoon stance you take with Hamilton, remember his teammate was Alonso, destroyer of driver's careers, the fact he was able to match Alonso would tend to put him in a positive light, but for you that's just another negative it seems to throw at Hamilton?

Hamilton has had #1 status at a stage in the season when his teammate was out the equation, Alonso had it engineered into the team and was the way he liked to operate and that includes 2007.

Saying you believe Alonso is the best driver that's fine but then when I read posts that he was a level above Hamilton that then deserves comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:01 am 
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LH is the best ever. I think it is difficult to argue otherwise considering he had to overcome racial barriers to stand amongst Schumacher and Fangio. The finer statistics do not matter so much. It is no accident he got to where he is. He took his chances as a child and pinned his colours to Mercedes' flag.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:58 am 
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You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:04 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.


Hamilton drove exceptionally well last season but Vettel made a very good of beating himself frankly.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:01 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
LH is the best ever. I think it is difficult to argue otherwise considering he had to overcome racial barriers to stand amongst Schumacher and Fangio. The finer statistics do not matter so much. It is no accident he got to where he is. He took his chances as a child and pinned his colours to Mercedes' flag.

This is something that is not highlighted enough in my opinion, perhaps because Lewis to his credit does not speak of it much and lets his driving achievements stand for themselves. But I have heard first hand accounts of some appalling racism that Lewis and his father were subjected to during his karting days, generally from the parents of the privileged white boys he was beating. The barriers were not just racial but socioeconomic as well; the class system is still entrenched into British culture and a working class child of any ethnicity would have a harder time earning respect in that sort of environment.

Lewis' path to F1 is an inspiring one, a testament to how barriers can be broken down through hard work, determination and self-belief. But I wouldn't take it into account when judging him against F1's other past champions because I believe once he'd reached the top level, ethnicity was no longer a factor (a few idiots in the Barcelona crowd aside) and in that respect he has competed on a level playing field with everyone else in F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?


I don't recall saying Alonso was a tier above or that Alonso had a quicker ultimate pace than Hamilton? You can believe I'm ignoring whatever you like. It's not true.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?
I would be interested in the performance data on Button/Alonso.
I also would like to make a clear distinction between fastest and best again. You seem to more or less equate these two categories. To clarify; I don't doubt for a second that Senna was still the fastest man in F1 when he died. But whether he was better than Schumacher is far from certain to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:52 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

My alternative is to watch the races, study accounts from the time and make a judgement. Plenty of drivers who have never won titles are better than those that have.


I don't understand how you can say that. Your definition of 'better' is thus totally subjective, which is meaningless to the world in general.

When I say 'better' I don't mean faster btw, which I agree with you is impossible to judge across time; maybe 'greater' is a better word. Actually I was expecting Gilles Villeneuve fans to bemoan his absence from the table.

But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:39 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.


Hamilton drove exceptionally well last season but Vettel made a very good of beating himself frankly.


Drivers don't operate in a vacuum.

Without Hamilton's consistency, Vettel perhaps wouldn't have felt the need to take some of the risks he did. Vettel made a lot of mistakes in 2018, but how much of this can be atrributed to the pressure Hamilton was able to exert? By avoiding mistakes, maximising his chances, winning on tracks where Merc didn't have the quicker car, Hamilton was able to compound the pressure on Vettel & Ferrari.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:42 pm 
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So Verstappen is not as sort after my team bosses as Kimi then.

Better is subjective that's why you can't get an objective answer.

Your model basically means a driver instantly and automatically becomes much better the second he wins a WDC. But F1 is so much more nuanced than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:34 pm 
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aice wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.


Hamilton drove exceptionally well last season but Vettel made a very good of beating himself frankly.


Drivers don't operate in a vacuum.

Without Hamilton's consistency, Vettel perhaps wouldn't have felt the need to take some of the risks he did. Vettel made a lot of mistakes in 2018, but how much of this can be atrributed to the pressure Hamilton was able to exert? By avoiding mistakes, maximising his chances, winning on tracks where Merc didn't have the quicker car, Hamilton was able to compound the pressure on Vettel & Ferrari.

And this is precisely the point. Consistency of a driver is relative to their speed. A driver that isn't pushed as much by a teammate or close competitor in the championship will not make as many mistakes because they do not need to drive on the limit (Vettel paired with webber/kimi, Alonso paired with Massa/kimi, Hamilton paired with kovalainan/bottas). People can excuse 2007 on the basis of form for Alonso but the reality is it was one of his worse years because he had stiffer competition. And that competition was very much improving throughout the season and will have continued to do so, obvious pressure of the title run in aside. Right now Ferrari have some a decent job of easing the pressure on leclerc but he also has room to improve but will have to deal with far greater pressure as the season goes on if he keeps up this form. That will be the true test for him especially as Vettel responds because I have a feeling he'll pick up his game with a championship at stake.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?


I don't recall saying Alonso was a tier above or that Alonso had a quicker ultimate pace than Hamilton? You can believe I'm ignoring whatever you like. It's not true.

It's your reply to Covalent in the "Race Pecking Order Thread" were the drivers are put into tiers.

Covalent wrote:
Interesting topic but I think there are a couple posters here that will not accept having a certain driver sharing the top spot with anyone. I hope I'm proven wrong and this thread won't descend into the usual.


mikeyg123 wrote:
Shouldn't be a problem. Now Alonso's retired at least he's sharing top spot and not second.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:26 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?
I would be interested in the performance data on Button/Alonso.
I also would like to make a clear distinction between fastest and best again. You seem to more or less equate these two categories. To clarify; I don't doubt for a second that Senna was still the fastest man in F1 when he died. But whether he was better than Schumacher is far from certain to me.

No I've always said that fastest and best can be two different things, that's how some pick Prost over Senna even though they would still acknowledge that Senna was faster.

On that score that's why I wouldn't want to bother taking issue as such with anyone who says that Alonso was better, my issue is when it's said that Alonso was a level above Hamilton.

In terms of data Mark Hughes does this although his numbers always seem inflated when compared to mine, his gaps are much bigger than mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:28 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.

Vettel had a car over the season has good as the Mercedes, sometimes the driver has to do it for himself as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.

Which circles back to Alonso, what were the top teams looking at when they chose not to employ supposedly the out and out best driver in F1?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.



Or another point of view - they couldn't operate at the level needed to beat Hamilton/Mercedes...all part of the sport.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.

Which circles back to Alonso, what were the top teams looking at when they chose not to employ supposedly the out and out best driver in F1?

I don't know. But it wasn't because he didn't have wins and championships, that's for sure. I don't believe that Ferrari wanted to replace him because they didn't feel he was good enough, or that Mercedes didn't hire him because he wasn't good enough. His skill was not the reason for either of those circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:45 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?


I don't recall saying Alonso was a tier above or that Alonso had a quicker ultimate pace than Hamilton? You can believe I'm ignoring whatever you like. It's not true.

It's your reply to Covalent in the "Race Pecking Order Thread" were the drivers are put into tiers.

Covalent wrote:
Interesting topic but I think there are a couple posters here that will not accept having a certain driver sharing the top spot with anyone. I hope I'm proven wrong and this thread won't descend into the usual.


mikeyg123 wrote:
Shouldn't be a problem. Now Alonso's retired at least he's sharing top spot and not second.


I could order drivers from 1-20 if I wanted. It doesn't mean I'd think there would be 20 different tiers.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.

Vettel had a car over the season has good as the Mercedes, sometimes the driver has to do it for himself as well.

Bit in bold. Right there


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.

Which circles back to Alonso, what were the top teams looking at when they chose not to employ supposedly the out and out best driver in F1?

age, attitude, history. The top teams already have top drivers and as LdM famously once said, they don't want two roosters, or words to that effect. But if they didn't they'd probably be falling over themselves. Witness McLaren who had to eat an awful lot of humble pie to get Alonso back. Neither Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull are in a position that they have to find a top driver for their teams


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:45 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Zoue wrote:

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.



Or another point of view - they couldn't operate at the level needed to beat Hamilton/Mercedes...all part of the sport.

Sure it's all part of the sport. I don't think I suggested otherwise? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There is a huge chasm when you say that Alonso is a tier above Hamilton, you take 2007 into account but then again not really?


I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?
I would be interested in the performance data on Button/Alonso.
I also would like to make a clear distinction between fastest and best again. You seem to more or less equate these two categories. To clarify; I don't doubt for a second that Senna was still the fastest man in F1 when he died. But whether he was better than Schumacher is far from certain to me.

No I've always said that fastest and best can be two different things, that's how some pick Prost over Senna even though they would still acknowledge that Senna was faster.

On that score that's why I wouldn't want to bother taking issue as such with anyone who says that Alonso was better, my issue is when it's said that Alonso was a level above Hamilton.

In terms of data Mark Hughes does this although his numbers always seem inflated when compared to mine, his gaps are much bigger than mine.

Hughes' numbers are usually expressed as percentages, whereas yours are expressed as time. I think this has been pointed out before? Your numbers are always going to differ because you are using different units of measurement.

If someone is better than another, could they not be a level above, too? I think you need to be clear how you define a level before taking umbrage at someone else's interpretation


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Zoue wrote:

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.



Or another point of view - they couldn't operate at the level needed to beat Hamilton/Mercedes...all part of the sport.

Sure it's all part of the sport. I don't think I suggested otherwise? :?


point I was trying (and apparently failed!) to make was that applying and dealing with the pressure is part of being the best. Vettels is increasingly looking like a driverw ho will go down as cracking under pressure, wheres Hamilton much less so and is certainly a master of applying it.

So to say he was "helped out by it" I think does him and Mercedes a disservice. They applied the pressure, maximized points at all opportunities and came out on top. It's not like they inherited a bunch of wins while trundling round 50 seconds down in 3rd and 4th place.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:30 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Zoue wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Zoue wrote:

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.



Or another point of view - they couldn't operate at the level needed to beat Hamilton/Mercedes...all part of the sport.

Sure it's all part of the sport. I don't think I suggested otherwise? :?


point I was trying (and apparently failed!) to make was that applying and dealing with the pressure is part of being the best. Vettels is increasingly looking like a driverw ho will go down as cracking under pressure, wheres Hamilton much less so and is certainly a master of applying it.

So to say he was "helped out by it" I think does him and Mercedes a disservice. They applied the pressure, maximized points at all opportunities and came out on top. It's not like they inherited a bunch of wins while trundling round 50 seconds down in 3rd and 4th place.

Oh fair enough. I didn't mean to suggest he/they didn't do a good job, only that the scale of the victory was somewhat flattered by the opposition tripping over themselves.

I think it was a really good season for Hamilton and Mercedes. I'm not sure I'd go along with all the superlatives that are being bestowed, however. I think it was a solid performance but Vettel/Ferrari made it easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:36 am 
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Zoue wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Zoue wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Zoue wrote:

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.



Or another point of view - they couldn't operate at the level needed to beat Hamilton/Mercedes...all part of the sport.

Sure it's all part of the sport. I don't think I suggested otherwise? :?


point I was trying (and apparently failed!) to make was that applying and dealing with the pressure is part of being the best. Vettels is increasingly looking like a driverw ho will go down as cracking under pressure, wheres Hamilton much less so and is certainly a master of applying it.

So to say he was "helped out by it" I think does him and Mercedes a disservice. They applied the pressure, maximized points at all opportunities and came out on top. It's not like they inherited a bunch of wins while trundling round 50 seconds down in 3rd and 4th place.

Oh fair enough. I didn't mean to suggest he/they didn't do a good job, only that the scale of the victory was somewhat flattered by the opposition tripping over themselves.

I think it was a really good season for Hamilton and Mercedes. I'm not sure I'd go along with all the superlatives that are being bestowed, however. I think it was a solid performance but Vettel/Ferrari made it easier.


:thumbup:

I would got a bit further and say it was a brilliant season for Hamilton but it wasn't brilliant because he beat Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:35 am 
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Exediron wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.


Surely they think Max/Charles is the better long-term investment to produce wins/titles... To me it seemed obvious that team managers look forward rather than backwards...


Last edited by tim3003 on Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.

Which circles back to Alonso, what were the top teams looking at when they chose not to employ supposedly the out and out best driver in F1?


His disruptive influence, as in 2007 which led to Mclaren not winning the title?... So, going forward he was not the best bet for more titles.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:21 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
But if you ask an F1 driver what he wants to achieve in his career he'll say wins and world titles. How then can we measure him on any other criteria? This surely is the way F1 team managers judge drivers too.

I really don't think it is. Why did Red Bull start prioritizing the driver with fewer wins, no poles, etc? Because they were pretty certain Max was quicker, despite not having the achievements to go with it. Same reason Ferrari wanted Leclerc; they believed he would be faster than Kimi, despite Kimi having a WDC and a pocket full of wins and poles.

I would actually say that the teams look at the question almost directly opposite to you: they care only about performance, and not achievements. If Bottas suddenly started outperforming his 5x WC teammate on a season-long basis, Lewis would find himself out the door, all-time pole leader or not. Speed is everything.

Which circles back to Alonso, what were the top teams looking at when they chose not to employ supposedly the out and out best driver in F1?

I don't know. But it wasn't because he didn't have wins and championships, that's for sure. I don't believe that Ferrari wanted to replace him because they didn't feel he was good enough, or that Mercedes didn't hire him because he wasn't good enough. His skill was not the reason for either of those circumstances.

Indeed and then perhaps we'd have to go into some of Alonso's qualities that are less desirable?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:31 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I've stated how I take 2007 into account very clearly. It's important but not where the argument starts or ends.

I stand by my opinion. For me, taking both their entire careers in mind Alonso was definitely better than Hamilton.

You are entitled to that opinion but I'm reading your post were you said that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton, I actually believe that is basically ignoring 2007 plus the performance data that shows Button was closer to Alonso than he was to Hamilton, of course you can still believe Alonso was the better driver as in more consistent as alluded to by Button, but not a tier above when such data suggests that Hamilton was ultimately quicker than Alonso, something that Alonso himself perhaps alluded to when he said he may not be the fastest driver in F1?


I don't recall saying Alonso was a tier above or that Alonso had a quicker ultimate pace than Hamilton? You can believe I'm ignoring whatever you like. It's not true.

It's your reply to Covalent in the "Race Pecking Order Thread" were the drivers are put into tiers.

Covalent wrote:
Interesting topic but I think there are a couple posters here that will not accept having a certain driver sharing the top spot with anyone. I hope I'm proven wrong and this thread won't descend into the usual.


mikeyg123 wrote:
Shouldn't be a problem. Now Alonso's retired at least he's sharing top spot and not second.


I could order drivers from 1-20 if I wanted. It doesn't mean I'd think there would be 20 different tiers.

Maybe you didn't realise what Covalent was actually saying then, sharing the top spot meant sharing the top tier, also the thread was meant for present drivers, the need to bring Alonso into it, a past driver, to back up Covalent having a little dig showed a bit of antipathy against Hamilton, not your usual posting method?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:32 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
You can argue both ways, but at the same time only one of these drivers keeps delivering and answering the critics year on year. We really need to wait until they retire for the full picture but beating Vettel in the Ferrari last season is right up there. Every season that goes by its harder to argue against him.

I think Alonso keeps delivering year on year with the equipment limitations he has, too. It's definitely not a one-sided equation.

Last year Hamilton drove very well but as has been pointed out he was helped somewhat by Vettel and Ferrari imploding.

Vettel had a car over the season has good as the Mercedes, sometimes the driver has to do it for himself as well.

Bit in bold. Right there

No I just see blame sharing.

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