planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:15 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31555
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I thought the IndyCar blocking theory had been debunked already?

Are we back to confusing best with most successful?

By Honda America who don't have the final say.

No I'm saying that can be part of the reasoning, I think Schumaher with is record number of titles and wins doesn't do him much harm?

Who does, then - you?

You have me confused with the last sentence. You seem to be arguing against a position nobody has taken?

No Honda decides, the last sentence is a clear reply to what you said about confusing best with most successful.

Do you mean Honda as in the parent co? If so aren't you making an assumption even though Honda America have denied already?

As to the other point, I'm still not sure I understand. What does that have to do with the point you responded to about two roosters?

I believe Honda Japan have the final say in such matters that's basically why Alonso is racing a Chevvy this year in the Indy500?

You said best is not the same as most successful, I think you're mistaken if you believe that people totally ignore a driver's success in deciding such things.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
By Honda America who don't have the final say.

No I'm saying that can be part of the reasoning, I think Schumaher with is record number of titles and wins doesn't do him much harm?

Who does, then - you?

You have me confused with the last sentence. You seem to be arguing against a position nobody has taken?

No Honda decides, the last sentence is a clear reply to what you said about confusing best with most successful.

Do you mean Honda as in the parent co? If so aren't you making an assumption even though Honda America have denied already?

As to the other point, I'm still not sure I understand. What does that have to do with the point you responded to about two roosters?

I believe Honda Japan have the final say in such matters that's basically why Alonso is racing a Chevvy this year in the Indy500?

You said best is not the same as most successful, I think you're mistaken if you believe that people totally ignore a driver's success in deciding such things.

well some people clearly don't, as evidenced by this thread. But it doesn't change the fact that "best" and "most successful" are two very different definitions. Otherwise we may as well just rank best drivers by the number of titles they have won and end the discussion.

The Honda point is still supposition, tbh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2195
myattitude wrote:
It's a common statement that it's next to impossible to compare drivers between generations with any meaningful accuracy but I disagree. Indeed statistics don't tell us much. But what there is, is there are traits and characteristics of all drivers that can be measured on the basis of transferable skills (like the transferable skills when talking about job applications and employees).

Knowing what we know about the drivers we've seen throughout history, we can ask questions like:

    Would Jim Clarke have been able to wrap his head around the poly-functional steering wheels while talking strategy on the radio?
    Would Lewis Hamilton be brave enough to race in Jackie Stewart's era wheel to wheel through the forests knowing there was a 2 in 3 chance he would die?
    Would Senna have had the temperament to build a whole team around him?
    Would Fangio be willing to work on his fitness levels in a 2019-esque scientific environment, and does he have a good physical base to train from?
    Does Ascari have a philosophy for driver, technical and sporting evolution to push his and the sport's boundaries to higher levels to get and stay ahead of the competition?

These are the sorts of traits that various drivers have to various degrees. Some answers we may never know because they were never required of the driver in their era (e.g multitasking over the radio). But if we were to put all F1/Grand Prix drivers in history through a series of 10-season championships through the various eras, we can make a guestimate on how many championships various drivers would win over a 100 year mega championship. Looking at the drivers who have the traits to be most successful, to my mind the best driver in the history of Formula One is (unquestionably and by a large margin) Michael Schumacher.


Each era is its own and each champion is a product of the era they compete in. Obviously, when imagining such scenarios, it's pure fantasy and mental gymnastics, and so a statistical comparison which tries to merge all sorts of different historical trends under a single banner, through a single macro lens, will have all sorts of problems because criteria is being sifted through a lens of relativism to account for a full history rather than being contextualised first relative to its own era before then being equated in a larger system and scanned for linear macro trends which may account for variance over time. But there is no perfect solution or method of measurement.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31555
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Who does, then - you?

You have me confused with the last sentence. You seem to be arguing against a position nobody has taken?

No Honda decides, the last sentence is a clear reply to what you said about confusing best with most successful.

Do you mean Honda as in the parent co? If so aren't you making an assumption even though Honda America have denied already?

As to the other point, I'm still not sure I understand. What does that have to do with the point you responded to about two roosters?

I believe Honda Japan have the final say in such matters that's basically why Alonso is racing a Chevvy this year in the Indy500?

You said best is not the same as most successful, I think you're mistaken if you believe that people totally ignore a driver's success in deciding such things.

well some people clearly don't, as evidenced by this thread. But it doesn't change the fact that "best" and "most successful" are two very different definitions. Otherwise we may as well just rank best drivers by the number of titles they have won and end the discussion.

The Honda point is still supposition, tbh

Some people do some people don't, posters don't decide for other posters.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6629
Location: Nebraska, USA
My God....

This is absolutely asinine. Get another thread taken over by those who think Hamilton is God on the track vs those who dare to think otherwise. This place is becoming untenable anymore.

The premise for the thread was quite simple to understand... "Best driver ever"...bound to be debateable, but the question is asked because there is no irrefutable answer. Is it really so wrong if some think Alonso was better than Lewis, or even in a "tier" above, whatever the definition of a tier is?

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9622
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Oh look someone suggested Hamilton has not always been the best driver on the grid - boom, catastrophic thread derailment.

I bet your loving it? :)

No I'm not, it's ruining this forum.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 242
Location: Suffolk, UK
Invade wrote:
myattitude wrote:
It's a common statement that it's next to impossible to compare drivers between generations with any meaningful accuracy but I disagree. Indeed statistics don't tell us much. But what there is, is there are traits and characteristics of all drivers that can be measured on the basis of transferable skills (like the transferable skills when talking about job applications and employees).

Knowing what we know about the drivers we've seen throughout history, we can ask questions like:

    Would Jim Clarke have been able to wrap his head around the poly-functional steering wheels while talking strategy on the radio?
    Would Lewis Hamilton be brave enough to race in Jackie Stewart's era wheel to wheel through the forests knowing there was a 2 in 3 chance he would die?
    Would Senna have had the temperament to build a whole team around him?
    Would Fangio be willing to work on his fitness levels in a 2019-esque scientific environment, and does he have a good physical base to train from?
    Does Ascari have a philosophy for driver, technical and sporting evolution to push his and the sport's boundaries to higher levels to get and stay ahead of the competition?

These are the sorts of traits that various drivers have to various degrees. Some answers we may never know because they were never required of the driver in their era (e.g multitasking over the radio). But if we were to put all F1/Grand Prix drivers in history through a series of 10-season championships through the various eras, we can make a guestimate on how many championships various drivers would win over a 100 year mega championship. Looking at the drivers who have the traits to be most successful, to my mind the best driver in the history of Formula One is (unquestionably and by a large margin) Michael Schumacher.


Each era is its own and each champion is a product of the era they compete in. Obviously, when imagining such scenarios, it's pure fantasy and mental gymnastics, and so a statistical comparison which tries to merge all sorts of different historical trends under a single banner, through a single macro lens, will have all sorts of problems because criteria is being sifted through a lens of relativism to account for a full history rather than being contextualised first relative to its own era before then being equated in a larger system and scanned for linear macro trends which may account for variance over time. But there is no perfect solution or method of measurement.


So everyone ignored my plea for the Alonso/Hamilton debate to find itself a new thread?... :frown:

In my view that list of comparitive questions above is irrelevant. It's uneccesary and impossible to judge the skills required in the 50's or 80's against those of today. They were very different - and not necessarily to the detriment of the 50's! What each era does have in common is the prize of winning grands prix and championships, and its appeal to fast drivers.

Each driver can only be judged by what he achieves in his own time, against the background of what a GP driver is at that time. And the fact that the prizes on offer (not the money!) have remained fairly constant make it valid to compare drivers across time by the size of their trophy cabinets.

Although I don't fully understand Invade's post, I do agree that the F1 world championship may not have meant as much to the world in 1950 as it does today, hence the lure of the series to potential drivers was less, and the talent lured likely to be less. Also, given the increase of global population and the extention of racing to everyone, rather than it being open only to an elite few 'gentlemen' in the 50's, we can speculate that today's fastest drivers are faster as a group than those of the past - even ignoring any gains in physical or mental training to aid their speed. Although that does not mean a one-off genius like Fangio is not the most talented ever. But that 'times change' is true in any walk of life, and it doesnt make comparing achievements say of politicians, generals, writers, artists or almost any other sportsman invalid, so why the insistance that F1 is somehow different?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 242
Location: Suffolk, UK
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No it's not the thread was about tiers and not rankings.

Well it was about the pecking order, strictly speaking. I don't recall seeing a rule that said it had to specifically be about tiers. But even if it was, I still don't see why you're getting so bent out of shape about someone having an opinion that Alonso was the best of all. Putting him in his own tier is simply a way of highlighting that and doesn't mean that the poster necessarily thinks he's in a completely different league. There's no definition that says Tier 1 has to be x percent better than Tier 2, for example. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here and it has to be said that you're almost looking to take offence even where none is intended. Why is it so personal to you that Hamilton must take top spot in everybody's lists?

It was set out to be about tiers by the person that made the thread, it's not my fault that the poster mistook what the thread was about and put Alonso a tier above Hamilton rather than simply saying he though Alonso was better than Hamilton, it's also unfortunate that he chose to back up a post who's intent seemed to be just to try and garner a response from Hamilton fans.




Just to clarify. I did not classify the drivers by tiers in my ranking. Are you refering to the fact that I changed the font colour in the pts x win % column? If so, that was simply to make the range of scores stand out more. I make no pretence that those in the 4's are as a group better than those in the 3's.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2195
tim3003 wrote:
Invade wrote:
myattitude wrote:
It's a common statement that it's next to impossible to compare drivers between generations with any meaningful accuracy but I disagree. Indeed statistics don't tell us much. But what there is, is there are traits and characteristics of all drivers that can be measured on the basis of transferable skills (like the transferable skills when talking about job applications and employees).

Knowing what we know about the drivers we've seen throughout history, we can ask questions like:

    Would Jim Clarke have been able to wrap his head around the poly-functional steering wheels while talking strategy on the radio?
    Would Lewis Hamilton be brave enough to race in Jackie Stewart's era wheel to wheel through the forests knowing there was a 2 in 3 chance he would die?
    Would Senna have had the temperament to build a whole team around him?
    Would Fangio be willing to work on his fitness levels in a 2019-esque scientific environment, and does he have a good physical base to train from?
    Does Ascari have a philosophy for driver, technical and sporting evolution to push his and the sport's boundaries to higher levels to get and stay ahead of the competition?

These are the sorts of traits that various drivers have to various degrees. Some answers we may never know because they were never required of the driver in their era (e.g multitasking over the radio). But if we were to put all F1/Grand Prix drivers in history through a series of 10-season championships through the various eras, we can make a guestimate on how many championships various drivers would win over a 100 year mega championship. Looking at the drivers who have the traits to be most successful, to my mind the best driver in the history of Formula One is (unquestionably and by a large margin) Michael Schumacher.


Each era is its own and each champion is a product of the era they compete in. Obviously, when imagining such scenarios, it's pure fantasy and mental gymnastics, and so a statistical comparison which tries to merge all sorts of different historical trends under a single banner, through a single macro lens, will have all sorts of problems because criteria is being sifted through a lens of relativism to account for a full history rather than being contextualised first relative to its own era before then being equated in a larger system and scanned for linear macro trends which may account for variance over time. But there is no perfect solution or method of measurement.


So everyone ignored my plea for the Alonso/Hamilton debate to find itself a new thread?... :frown:

In my view that list of comparitive questions above is irrelevant. It's uneccesary and impossible to judge the skills required in the 50's or 80's against those of today. They were very different - and not necessarily to the detriment of the 50's! What each era does have in common is the prize of winning grands prix and championships, and its appeal to fast drivers.

Each driver can only be judged by what he achieves in his own time, against the background of what a GP driver is at that time. And the fact that the prizes on offer (not the money!) have remained fairly constant make it valid to compare drivers across time by the size of their trophy cabinets.

Although I don't fully understand Invade's post, I do agree that the F1 world championship may not have meant as much to the world in 1950 as it does today, hence the lure of the series to potential drivers was less, and the talent lured likely to be less. Also, given the increase of global population and the extention of racing to everyone, rather than it being open only to an elite few 'gentlemen' in the 50's, we can speculate that today's fastest drivers are faster as a group than those of the past - even ignoring any gains in physical or mental training to aid their speed. Although that does not mean a one-off genius like Fangio is not the most talented ever. But that 'times change' is true in any walk of life, and it doesnt make comparing achievements say of politicians, generals, writers, artists or almost any other sportsman invalid, so why the insistance that F1 is somehow different?


There is no problem. It's a fun fantasy and bar discussion. Proposed equivalents take on different distortions depending on the frame of reference. It's hard enough in most sports to compare across eras and it becomes even more hazardous with F1 in which the driver themselves are a much smaller part of the equation for their own success, even compared to other team sports let alone individual pursuits.

It's easier to determine who was the most successful than it is to equate those successes to being the best driver or having the highest level of skill relative to their peers. When judging one relative to their supposed historical peers we run into serious problems based on the nature of evolution in sport as a general phenomenon, which is then masked by the noise of highly nuanced formulae.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:00 pm
Posts: 177
Blake wrote:
My God....

This is absolutely asinine. Get another thread taken over by those who think Hamilton is God on the track vs those who dare to think otherwise. This place is becoming untenable anymore.



Blake is completely correct.

Please just drop the Hamilton "luck" posts. Please don't take it to another thread. It's been done to death.

Edit: I've tried to remove the "lucky" discussion, but really it was so ingrained in this thread I've probably butchered it a bit. Sorry if I missed any posts, or moved any relevant posts...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7486
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I've seen the disservice go as far to suggest that Hamilton has been lucky these past 2 seasons.
He has been lucky. Not to win the title - he's driven well enough that he hasn't needed luck to contribute. But the comment that appears to have you all riled up was regarding the fact that these last two seasons whenever he's been at a disadvantage, for whatever reason, something has happened to bring him back in the game. Unless you're trying to suggest that last weekend's win had nothing to do with luck?

The only luck Hamilton had was to prove himself better than Vettel, to be better in the wet than Vettel, now it's luck for one driver to prove himself better than another driver, It's luck for another driver to beat another driver in a slower car?

Way to shift goal posts there. Having had some luck doesn't mean he was lucky to beat Vettel. You are getting confused. But yes, he has had some luck, like Baku, rain in Singapore or the fact that Ferrari got it wrong in a few races.

This does not detract from the fact that he also suffered DNF's due to mechanical reasons when Vettel didn't, nor that he was lucky to win the WDC.

In short, no one offended your favourite driver, ok?

When you say someone was lucky than that means underserving.

I'd prefer it if you didn't put words in my mouth thank you. Luck is luck, bad and good, out of a driver's control. Good job on disregarding all the praise to Lewis and sticking to the one thing that you could interpret the wrong way, which you did without fail...

You need to start reading properly


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7486
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
so you don't think it was fortunate for Hamilton that Leclerc had the issue when he did? You think Hamilton would have won anyway?

Seeing that Hamilton himself said he was fortunate (even used the word luck), I don't know how someone can argue it...

This doesn't mean that he was sitting in his hotel room and someone gifted him the win. He had to drive the car, pass Vettel and not put a foot down wrong. But luck played it's part.
yeah and that's what my original post which apparently caused all this outrage stated. I said credit to him for putting himself in a position to capitalise but apparently that got lost in all the red mist.


Go figure!

I was just reading about JV, saying that Hamilton didn't mean what he said to Leclerc after the race and that he was somehow rubbing in how much better he is than the other drivers:

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3775 ... illeneuve/

Can't beat the guy!

I guess being controversial keeps you in employment?


Just bait for the journos. Keeping him relevant I guess


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am
Posts: 889
There have been drivers who have been lucky to win races or even a WDC - but the reality is the 'best ever' needs to have performed at the highest level for a long time - faced challenges and overcome them - I think won in other than the dominant car (even if winning WDC requires at least a close to best car or super reliability when others drop out) and occasionally does something extraordinary.

If we're talking about that - then I think the clear winner is Fangio - he was older (but many racing drivers died young) - did miraculous things - won in three different marques - also was fantastic at other forms of motor sport (even if we accept that it was more possible then than now) and did so in an era when a minor mistake could mean death - and of course he nearly lost his life and came back to win again and again.

He was also a mechanic and managed to bring home cars that should by rights have been retired multiple times

The other dark horse I'd put up is Jack Brabham - living and working away from home - he again won in multiple marques - designed and built significant enhancements for F1 (aerodynamic wings) and managed teams that won while also driving (hard to imagine) - won three WDC and that could easily have been 5 - and was still getting poles and winning (and nearly the WDC) at age 47 in 1970 when age was a factor

Fastest driver - but wasn't smart (as in he kept pushing when he didn't need to) - Senna. Hardest working (but did dodgy things) Schumacher - Smartest - (as in did what was needed but knew when to be careful) perhaps Prost

Hamilton is a tough and good driver - but he's had the best or dominant car in 7 seasons - and only one season IMO had a significant competitor (Alonso) - and a competitive car in almost all his career - without the risk factor or doing other forms of motor racing (other than carting etc as he graduated to F1) - so he's good but not the best IMO

Anyway, my thoughts for discussion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 242
Location: Suffolk, UK
F1Oz wrote:
There have been drivers who have been lucky to win races or even a WDC - but the reality is the 'best ever' needs to have performed at the highest level for a long time - faced challenges and overcome them - I think won in other than the dominant car (even if winning WDC requires at least a close to best car or super reliability when others drop out) and occasionally does something extraordinary.

If we're talking about that - then I think the clear winner is Fangio - he was older (but many racing drivers died young) - did miraculous things - won in three different marques - also was fantastic at other forms of motor sport (even if we accept that it was more possible then than now) and did so in an era when a minor mistake could mean death - and of course he nearly lost his life and came back to win again and again.

He was also a mechanic and managed to bring home cars that should by rights have been retired multiple times

The other dark horse I'd put up is Jack Brabham - living and working away from home - he again won in multiple marques - designed and built significant enhancements for F1 (aerodynamic wings) and managed teams that won while also driving (hard to imagine) - won three WDC and that could easily have been 5 - and was still getting poles and winning (and nearly the WDC) at age 47 in 1970 when age was a factor

Fastest driver - but wasn't smart (as in he kept pushing when he didn't need to) - Senna. Hardest working (but did dodgy things) Schumacher - Smartest - (as in did what was needed but knew when to be careful) perhaps Prost

Hamilton is a tough and good driver - but he's had the best or dominant car in 7 seasons - and only one season IMO had a significant competitor (Alonso) - and a competitive car in almost all his career - without the risk factor or doing other forms of motor racing (other than carting etc as he graduated to F1) - so he's good but not the best IMO

Anyway, my thoughts for discussion


I'd agree with virtually all of that. Luck though usually balances out over a career of ten or more years. Okay drivers have won races by luck, but who has won a WDC when they clearly didn't deserve to? As you say, and I already have, the WDC winner always has the best or equal best car. Graham Hill in 68 was lucky to win his 3rd WDC after Clark's death. But that doesnt put him above Clark in my statistical rankings.

Maybe the odd driver has been lucky to be in the best car when he didn't deserve to be. But who's to judge that? Was Damon Hill an underserving champion? He beat Villeneuve, who was champion next year. Or was he undeserving too? If Senna had lived he may well have won both those WDCs, but he didn't.

Lauda was deemed lucky to win in 1977 over the faster but fragile Lotus 77 of Andretti. As he only won 3 races to Andretti's 4 the establishment were so annoyed they changed the pts scoring system to 'fix' this by only allowing the best 11 scores therefater. But was Lauda's WDC thus devalued?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:45 am
Posts: 100
Ahh.....

Let's just say Schumacher had more years in a dominant car, without a suitable team mate to challenge him (deliberately done I might add) than any other driver. imagine if Hamilton had been in a Mercedes for every year of his F1 career so far, and they were dominant in every year...see the picture now?

Senna spent 4 years in an uncompetitive car (Toleman, 3 years at Lotus) that *ruined* his stats. When he did get a drive in the best car, he was paired with what many considered the best driver on the grid, and possibly the best driver "ever". A complete opposite to Schumacher.

Just a few points:

1) amongst drivers, Senna is considered the best

2) amongst team principles, mechanics etc, Senna is considered the best

A good judge of a great driver is in the wet. And Senna was the best regenmeister yet seen in the sport, and by far. There is no comparison.

If Williams had not cocked up and provided a dodgy and broken car to Senna @ Imola '94 (yes, I am saying the accident was 10000% due to a mechanical failure laid squarely at the feet of incompetent Williams engineers), Schumacher would likely not have won in '94. Senna would have likely won in '94 and '95 and probably '96. See how that skewers the results? More ever, Senna would have likely finished his career at Ferrari...yeah.

There's an old saying "stats, stats and then there's damn lies". I think that about sums it all up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6629
Location: Nebraska, USA
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7014
Location: Michigan, USA
Blake wrote:
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.

While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7486
Exediron wrote:
Blake wrote:
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.

While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?

That goes for everyone though. Same for Senna, Alonso, everyone. When playing the "if" game, then everyone could have been the best driver. If Senna got another 3 WDC's, if Alonso didn't mess it at Macca, if if if...

The only thing we have is the actual things we saw on track. That's about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:45 am
Posts: 100
Blake wrote:
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.


I find it amusing that a bunch of so called chair experts think they know better than the drivers/team owners/mechanics, who are infinitely more knowledgeable about the sport, and the drivers.

Stats can, and typically are, manipulated to whatever the statistician wants. They rarely show the entire picture. A point in example, is with audio gear - why do the vast majority of transistor based amps sound like crap when compared to valve amps, despite having much better measurements?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7014
Location: Michigan, USA
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Blake wrote:
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.

While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?

That goes for everyone though. Same for Senna, Alonso, everyone. When playing the "if" game, then everyone could have been the best driver. If Senna got another 3 WDC's, if Alonso didn't mess it at Macca, if if if...

The only thing we have is the actual things we saw on track. That's about it.

This is exactly what I'm saying, so I assume you're agreeing with me? Stats are almost wholly car dependent, so you can't pick the greatest by their stats. Championships and wins are a measure of who was the most successful, and very little else.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7486
Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Blake wrote:
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.

While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?

That goes for everyone though. Same for Senna, Alonso, everyone. When playing the "if" game, then everyone could have been the best driver. If Senna got another 3 WDC's, if Alonso didn't mess it at Macca, if if if...

The only thing we have is the actual things we saw on track. That's about it.

This is exactly what I'm saying, so I assume you're agreeing with me? Stats are almost wholly car dependent, so you can't pick the greatest by their stats. Championships and wins are a measure of who was the most successful, and very little else.


I do agree, yes. As for the last sentences, the top drivers will shine in a non-top car, so they will pick up wins and points and affect the stats where lesser drivers wouldn't.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7701
Location: Belgium
dpastern wrote:
I find it amusing that a bunch of so called chair experts think they know better than the drivers/team owners/mechanics, who are infinitely more knowledgeable about the sport, and the drivers.
Infinitely, no less... 8O My belief in team principals in this matter, came down a notch or two when I realized the Autosport votes at the end of the season usually do little more than reflect - wait for it - the stats of that year. Understandable perhaps, but I don't believe that 'best driver in F1' is something that changes with being lucky enough to have the best car/best suiting car that particular year.
As we have seen with one of the candidates for 'best driver in F1, ever' they don't always end up in the best cars all of the time. One reason is the multi-year contracts they now have. Another is the fact that the number of best cars on the grid at any one time rarely exceeds 2. Which in turn explains why some drivers do indeed want and receive number 1 status.

How I wish I could have a better view of the F1 career of JM Fangio, and of my childhood hero Clark.

dpastern wrote:
If Williams had not cocked up and provided a dodgy and broken car to Senna @ Imola '94 (yes, I am saying the accident was 10000% due to a mechanical failure laid squarely at the feet of incompetent Williams engineers), Schumacher would likely not have won in '94.
That is quite a statement. While you say that the drivers see Senna as the best, the only driver driving the same car as Senna's final one, disagrees with you on the cause. In fact, there was no concensus about what might be the cause of the accident even in court. Your statement about a dodgy and broken car is unwise. Very.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Blake wrote:
My,my...The "expert" has arrived and shared the"facts" with us. And now we can "see the picture".

Dpastern, you might want to reread your last sentence, because "facts" seem to an ingredient your recipe is quite short of.

While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?

That goes for everyone though. Same for Senna, Alonso, everyone. When playing the "if" game, then everyone could have been the best driver. If Senna got another 3 WDC's, if Alonso didn't mess it at Macca, if if if...

The only thing we have is the actual things we saw on track. That's about it.

This is exactly what I'm saying, so I assume you're agreeing with me? Stats are almost wholly car dependent, so you can't pick the greatest by their stats. Championships and wins are a measure of who was the most successful, and very little else.


I do agree, yes. As for the last sentences, the top drivers will shine in a non-top car, so they will pick up wins and points and affect the stats where lesser drivers wouldn't.


The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
Fiki wrote:
dpastern wrote:
I find it amusing that a bunch of so called chair experts think they know better than the drivers/team owners/mechanics, who are infinitely more knowledgeable about the sport, and the drivers.
Infinitely, no less... 8O My belief in team principals in this matter, came down a notch or two when I realized the Autosport votes at the end of the season usually do little more than reflect - wait for it - the stats of that year. Understandable perhaps, but I don't believe that 'best driver in F1' is something that changes with being lucky enough to have the best car/best suiting car that particular year.
As we have seen with one of the candidates for 'best driver in F1, ever' they don't always end up in the best cars all of the time. One reason is the multi-year contracts they now have. Another is the fact that the number of best cars on the grid at any one time rarely exceeds 2. Which in turn explains why some drivers do indeed want and receive number 1 status.

How I wish I could have a better view of the F1 career of JM Fangio, and of my childhood hero Clark.

dpastern wrote:
If Williams had not cocked up and provided a dodgy and broken car to Senna @ Imola '94 (yes, I am saying the accident was 10000% due to a mechanical failure laid squarely at the feet of incompetent Williams engineers), Schumacher would likely not have won in '94.
That is quite a statement. While you say that the drivers see Senna as the best, the only driver driving the same car as Senna's final one, disagrees with you on the cause. In fact, there was no concensus about what might be the cause of the accident even in court. Your statement about a dodgy and broken car is unwise. Very.

Would have to agree with Fiki here on the TP voting. I'm often surprised at how they appear to be influenced by the machinery


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
dpastern wrote:
I find it amusing that a bunch of so called chair experts think they know better than the drivers/team owners/mechanics, who are infinitely more knowledgeable about the sport, and the drivers.
Infinitely, no less... 8O My belief in team principals in this matter, came down a notch or two when I realized the Autosport votes at the end of the season usually do little more than reflect - wait for it - the stats of that year. Understandable perhaps, but I don't believe that 'best driver in F1' is something that changes with being lucky enough to have the best car/best suiting car that particular year.
As we have seen with one of the candidates for 'best driver in F1, ever' they don't always end up in the best cars all of the time. One reason is the multi-year contracts they now have. Another is the fact that the number of best cars on the grid at any one time rarely exceeds 2. Which in turn explains why some drivers do indeed want and receive number 1 status.

How I wish I could have a better view of the F1 career of JM Fangio, and of my childhood hero Clark.

dpastern wrote:
If Williams had not cocked up and provided a dodgy and broken car to Senna @ Imola '94 (yes, I am saying the accident was 10000% due to a mechanical failure laid squarely at the feet of incompetent Williams engineers), Schumacher would likely not have won in '94.
That is quite a statement. While you say that the drivers see Senna as the best, the only driver driving the same car as Senna's final one, disagrees with you on the cause. In fact, there was no concensus about what might be the cause of the accident even in court. Your statement about a dodgy and broken car is unwise. Very.

Would have to agree with Fiki here on the TP voting. I'm often surprised at how they appear to be influenced by the machinery


I just don't think they take it seriously. I'm sure they are all very busy anyway and just spend 2 minutes coming up with a list of names. I doubt much analysis happens.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
dpastern wrote:
I find it amusing that a bunch of so called chair experts think they know better than the drivers/team owners/mechanics, who are infinitely more knowledgeable about the sport, and the drivers.
Infinitely, no less... 8O My belief in team principals in this matter, came down a notch or two when I realized the Autosport votes at the end of the season usually do little more than reflect - wait for it - the stats of that year. Understandable perhaps, but I don't believe that 'best driver in F1' is something that changes with being lucky enough to have the best car/best suiting car that particular year.
As we have seen with one of the candidates for 'best driver in F1, ever' they don't always end up in the best cars all of the time. One reason is the multi-year contracts they now have. Another is the fact that the number of best cars on the grid at any one time rarely exceeds 2. Which in turn explains why some drivers do indeed want and receive number 1 status.

How I wish I could have a better view of the F1 career of JM Fangio, and of my childhood hero Clark.

dpastern wrote:
If Williams had not cocked up and provided a dodgy and broken car to Senna @ Imola '94 (yes, I am saying the accident was 10000% due to a mechanical failure laid squarely at the feet of incompetent Williams engineers), Schumacher would likely not have won in '94.
That is quite a statement. While you say that the drivers see Senna as the best, the only driver driving the same car as Senna's final one, disagrees with you on the cause. In fact, there was no concensus about what might be the cause of the accident even in court. Your statement about a dodgy and broken car is unwise. Very.

Would have to agree with Fiki here on the TP voting. I'm often surprised at how they appear to be influenced by the machinery


I just don't think they take it seriously. I'm sure they are all very busy anyway and just spend 2 minutes coming up with a list of names. I doubt much analysis happens.

yeah I suspect you're right there


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7701
Location: Belgium
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
dpastern wrote:
I find it amusing that a bunch of so called chair experts think they know better than the drivers/team owners/mechanics, who are infinitely more knowledgeable about the sport, and the drivers.
Infinitely, no less... 8O My belief in team principals in this matter, came down a notch or two when I realized the Autosport votes at the end of the season usually do little more than reflect - wait for it - the stats of that year. Understandable perhaps, but I don't believe that 'best driver in F1' is something that changes with being lucky enough to have the best car/best suiting car that particular year.
As we have seen with one of the candidates for 'best driver in F1, ever' they don't always end up in the best cars all of the time. One reason is the multi-year contracts they now have. Another is the fact that the number of best cars on the grid at any one time rarely exceeds 2. Which in turn explains why some drivers do indeed want and receive number 1 status.

How I wish I could have a better view of the F1 career of JM Fangio, and of my childhood hero Clark.

dpastern wrote:
If Williams had not cocked up and provided a dodgy and broken car to Senna @ Imola '94 (yes, I am saying the accident was 10000% due to a mechanical failure laid squarely at the feet of incompetent Williams engineers), Schumacher would likely not have won in '94.
That is quite a statement. While you say that the drivers see Senna as the best, the only driver driving the same car as Senna's final one, disagrees with you on the cause. In fact, there was no concensus about what might be the cause of the accident even in court. Your statement about a dodgy and broken car is unwise. Very.

Would have to agree with Fiki here on the TP voting. I'm often surprised at how they appear to be influenced by the machinery


I just don't think they take it seriously. I'm sure they are all very busy anyway and just spend 2 minutes coming up with a list of names. I doubt much analysis happens.
I would think their analysis is continuous around the year. But perhaps it really isn't any easier for them than it is for us to judge drivers. How else understand why some drivers get hired, only to find themselves in 'undriveable' cars? Perhaps I should qualify that, and say it is difficult for them to judge drivers outside their own teams and close experience.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 242
Location: Suffolk, UK
Exediron wrote:
While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?


With respect this is simplistic. Schumacher retired because he was tired, at the end of his motivation and could not face the pressure of fighting on. After 3 years off he came back recharged. He wasnt the same world-beater then. By assuming he'd have kept on winning by not retiring you are claiming he was stronger in desire, fitness and determination than he really was. Talent is limited by age and many other factors. The same is true of Senna. Would he have won more championships? It may well be that if he won in 94 or 95, equalling Prost's 4 titles, he'd have retired. You can't just assume he'd have the desire to go on seemingly 'knowing' he'd have world championship winning cars until 97. I don't think this sort of speculation has any basis for inclusion in judging how good a driver was. You can only go by what they actually achieved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 242
Location: Suffolk, UK
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


I do absolutely question that assertion. How on earth do we know the best drivers get the best cars? They certainly don't spend the same amount of time in the best cars.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


I do absolutely question that assertion. How on earth do we know the best drivers get the best cars? They certainly don't spend the same amount of time in the best cars.

yeah I would question that assertion, too. [/i]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7701
Location: Belgium
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.
Compare that Schumacher belief with how Ricciardo was made aware of which choice his then team made about their preferred driver during 2017. Did Red Bull end up with the best driver in their 2018 season as their number 1? It is at least arguable they did not, however much or little the result was influenced by their preference. I also question the part a driver plays in "building a team around himself", if that team isn't inclined to be steered in that direction. Alonso may be the most readily available example of how even that team willingness may be enough to ensure success - neither Ferrari nor McLaren V2.0 turned out to be title winners, despite having the arguably best driver in the world at their disposal. I don't see Alonso as the driver who tore Ferrari apart, nor demotivated them. You simply don't win titles without putting the best car under the driver's bum.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 1019
tim3003 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?


With respect this is simplistic. Schumacher retired because he was tired, at the end of his motivation and could not face the pressure of fighting on. After 3 years off he came back recharged. He wasnt the same world-beater then. By assuming he'd have kept on winning by not retiring you are claiming he was stronger in desire, fitness and determination than he really was. Talent is limited by age and many other factors. The same is true of Senna. Would he have won more championships? It may well be that if he won in 94 or 95, equalling Prost's 4 titles, he'd have retired. You can't just assume he'd have the desire to go on seemingly 'knowing' he'd have world championship winning cars until 97. I don't think this sort of speculation has any basis for inclusion in judging how good a driver was. You can only go by what they actually achieved.


That isn't true, Ferrari signed a pre agreement with Raikkonen way back in late 2005 when Raikkonen looked ridiculously quick and they needed a long term successor for Schumacher who was going to be 38 before the 2007 season even started.
Throughout 2006, Schumacher wasn't sure to carry on or not. But Ferrari kept the door open for him and by the time he finally decided he had gone from outsider to favourite in the WDC.

As we all know, he ended up losing it due to an engine failure, but ultimately, he didn't want to face Raikkonen in the same car. Unfortunate for Schumacher and he would have thrashed Raikkonen and picked up the 2007 and 2008 in similar fashion to his 2002 and 2004 title wins. Schumacher had also struck up a friendship with Massa and said he didn't want to push him back to test driver.

I have no doubt if Schumacher was going to partner Massa for 2007/08 he would not have retired. It would be likey Hamilton retiring in 5 years time as Verstappen is about to join Mercedes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7486
Johnson wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
While I don't really agree with the conclusions dpastern comes to regarding Senna as supposedly the unanimous selection for greatest driver, I do think his post is a decent illustration of why stats are a poor way to judge a driver's greatness. It certainly is a fact - in my opinion, at least - that Schumacher or Hamilton would be no better than they are now if they'd had a few more years in the best car without competition, but it would have enhanced their stats greatly. If Schumi had never left Ferrari and had won the 2007 and 2008 WDCs and another 20 wins, would he be an even better driver than he was?


With respect this is simplistic. Schumacher retired because he was tired, at the end of his motivation and could not face the pressure of fighting on. After 3 years off he came back recharged. He wasnt the same world-beater then. By assuming he'd have kept on winning by not retiring you are claiming he was stronger in desire, fitness and determination than he really was. Talent is limited by age and many other factors. The same is true of Senna. Would he have won more championships? It may well be that if he won in 94 or 95, equalling Prost's 4 titles, he'd have retired. You can't just assume he'd have the desire to go on seemingly 'knowing' he'd have world championship winning cars until 97. I don't think this sort of speculation has any basis for inclusion in judging how good a driver was. You can only go by what they actually achieved.


That isn't true, Ferrari signed a pre agreement with Raikkonen way back in late 2005 when Raikkonen looked ridiculously quick and they needed a long term successor for Schumacher who was going to be 38 before the 2007 season even started.
Throughout 2006, Schumacher wasn't sure to carry on or not. But Ferrari kept the door open for him and by the time he finally decided he had gone from outsider to favourite in the WDC.

As we all know, he ended up losing it due to an engine failure, but ultimately, he didn't want to face Raikkonen in the same car. Unfortunate for Schumacher and he would have thrashed Raikkonen and picked up the 2007 and 2008 in similar fashion to his 2002 and 2004 title wins. Schumacher had also struck up a friendship with Massa and said he didn't want to push him back to test driver.

I have no doubt if Schumacher was going to partner Massa for 2007/08 he would not have retired. It would be likey Hamilton retiring in 5 years time as Verstappen is about to join Mercedes.


We do not know the bold parts, that's pure speculation.

But I agree, he probably would have beat Kimi at Ferrari or partnered Massa until '08 and get a few more records. 100+ wins would be easy given the Ferrari cars in '07-'08


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:46 am
Posts: 242
Location: Suffolk, UK
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


I do absolutely question that assertion. How on earth do we know the best drivers get the best cars? They certainly don't spend the same amount of time in the best cars.

yeah I would question that assertion, too. [/i]


Well how do we know which are the best cars? Those that win most races and championships. And which drivers win most races and championships? Those in those cars? And they are the best. If not then who??

Isn't it obvious that the managers of the teams with the best cars want the best drivers, and can get them. Similarly the best drivers have the clout to get the best drives.. If not, show me some examples of the best drivers toiling in poor cars and mediocre drivers winning consistently only because they had the best cars..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


I do absolutely question that assertion. How on earth do we know the best drivers get the best cars? They certainly don't spend the same amount of time in the best cars.

yeah I would question that assertion, too. [/i]


Well how do we know which are the best cars? Those that win most races and championships. And which drivers win most races and championships? Those in those cars? And they are the best. If not then who??

Isn't it obvious that the managers of the teams with the best cars want the best drivers, and can get them. Similarly the best drivers have the clout to get the best drives.. If not, show me some examples of the best drivers toiling in poor cars and mediocre drivers winning consistently only because they had the best cars..


Both have happened often but you would never agree as you think best = most successful. So if they have not been in cars to achieve results you are never going to think they are the best driver.

Conversely no matter how average a driver is if he has been in the best car and achieved results you are never going to believe he was average because you think his success "proves" how good he was.

Can you not see how circular your logic is?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1894
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both have happened often but you would never agree as you think best = most successful. So if they have not been in cars to achieve results you are never going to think they are the best driver.

Conversely no matter how average a driver is if he has been in the best car and achieved results you are never going to believe he was average because you think his success "proves" how good he was.

Can you not see how circular your logic is?


An average driver in the best car will still show he's average as he wont be dominant!

The best drivers have a sustained level of dominance in dominant machines.

Case in point Bottas, Webber, Barrichello as examples.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 705
Location: Scotland/Lancashire
tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with that is how we view a car is almost wholly dependent on the results achieved in it. Look at the Red Bull this year. Put two Gasly's in it and nobody would suggest it was the third best car in Australia or Bahrain. We would probably be talking about his brilliant drive in China to get such a slow car comfortably ahead of the midfield.


Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


I do absolutely question that assertion. How on earth do we know the best drivers get the best cars? They certainly don't spend the same amount of time in the best cars.

yeah I would question that assertion, too. [/i]


Well how do we know which are the best cars? Those that win most races and championships. And which drivers win most races and championships? Those in those cars? And they are the best. If not then who??

Isn't it obvious that the managers of the teams with the best cars want the best drivers, and can get them. Similarly the best drivers have the clout to get the best drives.. If not, show me some examples of the best drivers toiling in poor cars and mediocre drivers winning consistently only because they had the best cars..


I think under normal circumstances I'd agree, but in era's of dominance, particularly this era of chronic dominance, it skews things.

This isn't a bash at Hamilton, he got himself the Merc seat by being the best available driver at the time and it he is hardly going to say no to that seat now.

However since 2014, only the #1 driver at Mercedes has had the real opportunity to rack up the incredible stats and.... it is very likely the #1 Mercedes driver will rack up another 20+ wins before the next rules reset. Until then, or Hamilton decides he doesn't want the #1 Merc seat, nobody will get a chance.

Even if Vettel drove perfect when Ferrari was arguably as good or better than Merc - it wouldn't effect the numbers that drastically. 3-4 race win swing.

_________________
I'm competing this season, if anyone is interested in how I am getting on.

Car #36 - Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31555
Badgeronimous wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Agreed: I've not heard anyone question my assertion that the best drivers always get the best cars - or make their cars the best - so we can judge them against eachother on that basis. It's often said that part of the reason for Schumacher's dominance from 2000-04 is that he built the team around himself (with Brawn and Todt's help). Compare his success to Alonso, who often tore apart and demotivated teams he drove for.


I do absolutely question that assertion. How on earth do we know the best drivers get the best cars? They certainly don't spend the same amount of time in the best cars.

yeah I would question that assertion, too. [/i]


Well how do we know which are the best cars? Those that win most races and championships. And which drivers win most races and championships? Those in those cars? And they are the best. If not then who??

Isn't it obvious that the managers of the teams with the best cars want the best drivers, and can get them. Similarly the best drivers have the clout to get the best drives.. If not, show me some examples of the best drivers toiling in poor cars and mediocre drivers winning consistently only because they had the best cars..


I think under normal circumstances I'd agree, but in era's of dominance, particularly this era of chronic dominance, it skews things.

This isn't a bash at Hamilton, he got himself the Merc seat by being the best available driver at the time and it he is hardly going to say no to that seat now.

However since 2014, only the #1 driver at Mercedes has had the real opportunity to rack up the incredible stats and.... it is very likely the #1 Mercedes driver will rack up another 20+ wins before the next rules reset. Until then, or Hamilton decides he doesn't want the #1 Merc seat, nobody will get a chance.

Even if Vettel drove perfect when Ferrari was arguably as good or better than Merc - it wouldn't effect the numbers that drastically. 3-4 race win swing.

Ferrari have been as good as Mercedes these past 2 years performance wise.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15278
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Both have happened often but you would never agree as you think best = most successful. So if they have not been in cars to achieve results you are never going to think they are the best driver.

Conversely no matter how average a driver is if he has been in the best car and achieved results you are never going to believe he was average because you think his success "proves" how good he was.

Can you not see how circular your logic is?


An average driver in the best car will still show he's average as he wont be dominant!

The best drivers have a sustained level of dominance in dominant machines.

Case in point Bottas, Webber, Barrichello as examples.


Depends on two factors A) The guy in the other car, B) how "best" the car actually is. Without a top driver next to him we may consider Barrichello a multiple champion who managed to triumph despite a dominant car (it didn't look dominant in his hands) It's only the presence of Schumacher who gave the game away.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LBET and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group