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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:54 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

He was quicker in qualifying as well, until he crashed. If he'd started in front of the Mercs, I believe he could have finished in front.

Leclerc does have a serious problem of being comparatively nowhere for one stint of every race, which is something he'll need to fix. But it's difficult to get a real picture with Ferrari bungling every race to varying degrees.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:49 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

I agree with you about Baku - Vettel was clearly the superior driver during the race, although Leclerc was clearly much quicker in qualifying. I think many don't look beyond qualifying in giving the nod to Baku. You only have to look at the DotD votes for that race to see that. I don't think Aus was a definite victory for Vettel, though. At the end of the day Leclerc was all over the back of Vettel at the end and it did look like he had superior pace. Vettel was better at the beginning and track position was important, but if we're talking race pace over the entire race I think there's a case for Leclerc there. I believe strategy played its part but I don't think it's that clear cut.


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 10:06 am 
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It’s very hard to draw any conclusion when they run entirely different strategies. Vettel spent 11 laps on the soft in Baku and 41 on the superior medium.

Leclerc spent 34 of the medium but had to fight his way through traffic, then 17 on the soft. They were both pretty awful on the soft and both looked strong on the medium.

The same for Australia, completely different strategies. But when on the same tyre, Vettel was quicker and also didn’t go off track.


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yeah Leclerc is definitely fast but he is not polished enough to be wdc, let alone beat Vettel.

Yeah he's not ready yet, Ferrari made the right decision in prioritising Vettel in the early races.

Did they?

We've had two weekends now where it looked like Leclerc had the pace to take it to the Mercedes. Neither of those worked out, once due to reliability and once due to driver error. But on the other side, we have no weekends whatsoever where Vettel looked like he had the pace to take it to the Mercedes. Yes, he's beaten Leclerc more often than not -- mostly through luck and pitwall meddling -- but he has never looked like a championship contender.

Bottom line: Ferrari knows Vettel can't beat Hamilton without a superior car. They don't know about Leclerc yet. It doesn't make sense to favor the driver you know isn't good enough. What are they going to get? A happier driver, who still isn't good enough?

Well I think that was Ferrari's hope that they would build a superior car instead of the inferior car they seem to have built. I'm saying this in light of what has actually happened an inexperienced driver damaging his car in 2 out of the 5 qualifying sessions, that's not a driver you can really build a WDC challenge around.

Also in terms of speed it's only Bahrain that we can say for definite that Leclerc was quicker, in Baku he blew it and as for the other 3 races I would air towards Vettel being quicker, certainly in qualifying and I would say also the races themselves.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
He was quicker in qualifying as well, until he crashed. If he'd started in front of the Mercs, I believe he could have finished in front.

In Baku, Leclerc's race pace and tyre management was no better (in fact, slightly worse) than Gasly on the same strategy. This is despite the fact that Gasly started from the back, and had to overtake a lot more cars than Leclerc in the race.

Meanwhile, in the same race, Vettel beat Verstappen in a direct fight.

What does that tell you?


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:12 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
He was quicker in qualifying as well, until he crashed. If he'd started in front of the Mercs, I believe he could have finished in front.

In Baku, Leclerc's race pace and tyre management was no better (in fact, slightly worse) than Gasly on the same strategy. This is despite the fact that Gasly started from the back, and had to overtake a lot more cars than Leclerc in the race.

Meanwhile, in the same race, Vettel beat Verstappen in a direct fight.

What does that tell you?

Nothing at all, since my assertion is purely that Leclerc was faster in qualifying and could have won from pole. Arguing about his race pace when he didn't start from pole doesn't have much bearing on that. Bottas was slower than Hamilton, but he won because he led into the first corner.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:49 pm 
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Bottas was at best slightly slower than Hamilton at Baku. It’s much harder to keep a guy 1 sec/lap quicker behind you than a guy 2 tenths/lap quicker.

When Mercedes were given the instructions to push, they were 1 second per lap quicker than Vettel and Verstappen. Mercedes had so much speed in reserve.

Do you think Gasly could have won from pole?


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

I agree with you about Baku - Vettel was clearly the superior driver during the race, although Leclerc was clearly much quicker in qualifying. I think many don't look beyond qualifying in giving the nod to Baku. You only have to look at the DotD votes for that race to see that. I don't think Aus was a definite victory for Vettel, though. At the end of the day Leclerc was all over the back of Vettel at the end and it did look like he had superior pace. Vettel was better at the beginning and track position was important, but if we're talking race pace over the entire race I think there's a case for Leclerc there. I believe strategy played its part but I don't think it's that clear cut.

I think Australia was a matter of Leclerc trying to make a case for himself being favored while Vettel was managing his car to the end of the race. Vettel wasn't going to catch Mercedes, his teammate was a fair distance behind, so why push your engine harder than you need to?


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:20 pm 
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kowen1208 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

I agree with you about Baku - Vettel was clearly the superior driver during the race, although Leclerc was clearly much quicker in qualifying. I think many don't look beyond qualifying in giving the nod to Baku. You only have to look at the DotD votes for that race to see that. I don't think Aus was a definite victory for Vettel, though. At the end of the day Leclerc was all over the back of Vettel at the end and it did look like he had superior pace. Vettel was better at the beginning and track position was important, but if we're talking race pace over the entire race I think there's a case for Leclerc there. I believe strategy played its part but I don't think it's that clear cut.

I think Australia was a matter of Leclerc trying to make a case for himself being favored while Vettel was managing his car to the end of the race. Vettel wasn't going to catch Mercedes, his teammate was a fair distance behind, so why push your engine harder than you need to?


Yes, Vettel pitted too early and had to micromanage the less durable tires just to finish the race. I wondered why Ferrari didn't put Vettel on hards since he had such a huge distance left. But instead they did it with Leclerc. In that situation the harder tire was the better tire and Leclerc showed that. But 5 races in we now know Ferrari pitwall have no idea what they are doing, so it's no longer a surprise they failed to use the right strategy back then.

Vettel against Leclerc so far, in my view Vettel is faster during the race more often than not. Charles can be as quick or sometimes quicker in quali but he has made more mistakes. IMO it was the wrong move for Ferrari to sign Charles for this year. They should have kept him at Sauber or tried to move him to Haas if possible. When Vettel's contract runs out then they could have brought in Charles and not resign Vettel. Right now all Ferrari is doing is trip over themselves and I think it will be the case all year. Very tough to manage two strong drivers. I suspect Max in the Redbull might outscore both Vettel and Leclerc in the WDC when it's all said and done.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:47 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Bottas was at best slightly slower than Hamilton at Baku. It’s much harder to keep a guy 1 sec/lap quicker behind you than a guy 2 tenths/lap quicker.

When Mercedes were given the instructions to push, they were 1 second per lap quicker than Vettel and Verstappen. Mercedes had so much speed in reserve.

Do you think Gasly could have won from pole?


Where are you getting those numbers from? On the short soft stint, that isn't even true but that was only 11 of the 51 laps. Once on the mediums, Mercedes had no where near that advantage over Vettel. Once the SC pulled in at the end, they had at most 0.5 on Vettel. Which is a little misleading because both Mercedes drivers set there fastest laps that were 0.5 quicker than Vettels with a tow, whilst Vettels was set without. So maybe even less than that.


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