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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:22 pm 
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Verstappen is proven and Leclerc is quickly becoming so. After those two, there's a slew of young talent in F1, many of whom had substantial success in junior formulas.

What potential do you guys see in this group of Ocon, Stroll, Russell, Norris, Gasly, Albon, Sainz...?

Obviously, it's difficult to have any real gauge on how good the rookies are given they've only completed two GP, but so far Russell is crushing Kubica (not sure if that really says much of anything) and Norris is worthy competition for Sainz. The battles between Perez-Stroll, Kvyat-Albon and Sainz-Norris will be very interesting to monitor throughout the 2019 season.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:57 pm 
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I've only been watching F1 since 2012, so my point of reference is very narrow compared to many of you. However, it seems the fresh talent coming in right now and waiting in the wings is the best since I started watching. Norris and Leclerc have wasted no time in impressing, and Russell is making good work of a terrible car. I have a hard time figuring out Stroll. He has flashes of brilliance, but then seems pretty mediocre much of the time. Maybe being in a more competitive team will help with that. Gasly is falling short of expectations in the Redbull so far, but I don't think it's uncommon to have a learning curve; different drivers prefer a different feel to the car, and each team is going to have a different balance from the others. I'm guessing it's a similar situation for Ricciardo figuring out the Renault. Overall, I think the incoming talent is very promising.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:00 pm 
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They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:07 pm 
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Check out this race-craft from Lando Norris...



There's some serious car control in a couple of these moves.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Verstappen and Leclerc are the standout talents, I can see those two being a big part of F1's future. The others are nothing special in my eyes. We'll wait and see with Russell and Norris though, they might deliver.

You never know who is going to emerge in a few years' time though. I remember reading back around 2003/2004 that Alonso and Raikkonen were the future of F1 and were going to dominate the sport between them once Schumacher retired. Verstappen went from obscurity to F1's hottest young talent in about 12 months.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:37 pm 
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We are witnessing a change in Formula One. No longer do drivers have to be seasoned and experienced, basically they just have to be capable of navigating the many menus on their wheel and driving very fast. Even Ferrari, traditionally bound to experienced drivers, are beginning to realize that with pit coaching, along with current simulator technology, that old and wise is no longer the formula.

I have a massive amount of respect for the new drivers, I am just stating one obvious fact, they lack Formula One experience. And for anyone of them, given the right car and circumstances, each is very capable of winning a race.

This is a disclaimer, I am a huge fan of Lando Norris. I have been following his career for awhile, and watch him a lot on Twitch. He is a young and brash young man, very intelligent and witty. He may enjoy a long career in Formula One.

But then again, the trend may relegate him out of racing just because in five years there may be another new fast kid. And sadly, it may come down to salary demands. Why hire a driver asking for five million when a plug-in replacement can be had for 1/10th cost?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:39 pm 
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j man wrote:
You never know who is going to emerge in a few years' time though. I remember reading back around 2003/2004 that Alonso and Raikkonen were the future of F1 and were going to dominate the sport between them once Schumacher retired. Verstappen went from obscurity to F1's hottest young talent in about 12 months.


Backing up even before Verstappen. Alonso and Raikkonen were considered the future of F1, collected three WDC between them, and then Vettel and Hamilton came in and took nine of the next 11.

How can you predict who's going to be the best in the field in three years? How many drivers are their in junior series that are still developing their talents? How many of them, once talent is developed, will be able to handle the pressure if they make it to F1? A lot of people were saying Vandoorne was going to be a star, but it seemed like he just couldn't handle it. It's impossible to predict.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:53 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
But then again, the trend may relegate him out of racing just because in five years there may be another new fast kid. And sadly, it may come down to salary demands. Why hire a driver asking for five million when a plug-in replacement can be had for 1/10th cost?

That's a good point; I can see that playing out with the mid-field teams. For the bigger teams, though, I think they'll always spend the money necessary for the best talent available, so long as budget caps don't get in their way.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:27 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:41 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
This is a disclaimer, I am a huge fan of Lando Norris. I have been following his career for awhile, and watch him a lot on Twitch. He is a young and brash young man, very intelligent and witty. He may enjoy a long career in Formula One.


After Verstappen and Leclerc Lando Norris looks to be where Leclerc was last year and he has the temperament. Its that that will see him and Leclerc becoming rivals in my view. Verstappen may lose out on top drives due to his agressive nature. At the end of the day its that combination of car and driver that will decide who becomes champion.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:19 pm 
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kowen1208 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
But then again, the trend may relegate him out of racing just because in five years there may be another new fast kid. And sadly, it may come down to salary demands. Why hire a driver asking for five million when a plug-in replacement can be had for 1/10th cost?

That's a good point; I can see that playing out with the mid-field teams. For the bigger teams, though, I think they'll always spend the money necessary for the best talent available, so long as budget caps don't get in their way.


I was just speculating based on the current model. But I am very aware that Liberty intend to put driver talent to the fore, and that is a very good thing for the fans. Hopefully, in the future no team has to pick up pay drivers, instead all driver selection will be based on merit and ability.

I had a dream, that all races were fierce and close battles, with the outcome based on driver skill, courage, and good decisions.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:02 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:03 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


I'd need to look into it to see how far back I'd go but my hunch would be pre 2003.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


I'd need to look into it to see how far back I'd go but my hunch would be pre 2003.

F1 grids always look stronger with hindsight.

Imagine how good this 2019 grid will look in hindsight if Verstappen, Leclerc and Norris all win multiple WDC.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:57 pm 
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To be honest I've been sooo bored with the new intake for a few years (apart from Verstappen) but am definitely warming to some this year - some great new drivers (who also have a bit of character about them, which is massively important IMO) - I'm not tribal so am happy that I have new guys to cheer on - Happy days!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).

I can't help feeling it's a reference to Alonso no longer being on the grid?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Verstappen and Leclerc are obviously exceptionally good, I have a feeling that Russell could be really good, Norris and Albon look promising, Ocon is quite good, Gasly and Giovinazzi I'm not that sure about yet, Gasly going up against Verstappen so early in his career could end up with him having a short spell in F1 like Vandoorne, Stroll is still meh.

With respect to drivers possibly being out of F1 in the next 5 years like Norris when a new wave of drivers come in, well I don't see who these drivers might be, I think perhaps people don't realise that these youngsters are really good, the drivers making way in the future will more likely be the older drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They need to be good because right now the field is the weakest it's been in quite a while imo

Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


I'd need to look into it to see how far back I'd go but my hunch would be pre 2003.

That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:51 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


I'd need to look into it to see how far back I'd go but my hunch would be pre 2003.

That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


Remember, that is your opinion, not irrefutable fact. You have a tendency to do that, sandman...to be blunt.
;)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:31 am 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


I'd need to look into it to see how far back I'd go but my hunch would be pre 2003.

That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


Remember, that is your opinion, not irrefutable fact. You have a tendency to do that, sandman...to be blunt.
;)

Please point out where I said it was "irrefutable fact". If you're going to butt into a conversation at least do so with a modicum of accuracy. I'm assuming this is about Ferrari in your mind...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:40 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:19 am 
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Max is proven for what exactly? He is obviously quick on his day, however he has failed to get a pole when his team mate has secured 3.
For someone hailed as the next Senna, he isn't a qualifying genius.
Vs Leclerc getting pole at his first real opportunity.

The new crop seem to be all pretty good, just lacking experience.
And if the new crop are better than ever, do you think it is a result of the changes to the super license requirements they did 3-4 years ago?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:43 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:57 am 
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I'm surprised to read the name of Verstappen still in the "new wave". He's in his 6th year right now.

The sad case of Vandoorne - joining the right team at the wrong time, ruining a young driver's prospects - has made me very careful about how successful such a newcomer may be. I also remember being very excited by Jean Alesi's promise in 1989-1990. There are only a very few "right" teams to join at the right time, as even Alonso showed us. And Räikkönen, for those willing enough to look at 2003 closely. Not being "political" harmed his career, and may well provide THE lesson for the current new wave.

Of the current new wave, I am impressed by Leclerc.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:38 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure how you figure that. I think the field is getting younger but very strong. We are in a period similar to 2006-2007; when Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg and others all came into the sport. There are a lot of very high level young drivers entering the sport right now and, aside from Alonso, most of the established top drivers have remained. You have Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc all pretty top-tier performers. You also have a lot of very strong midfielders and journeymen like Bottas, Hulk, Perez, Raikkonen and Sainz. Finally you have the talented but not yet proven youngsters like Russell, Norris, Albon and Gasly. The field has as much depth as ever before. Even the guys I haven't mentioned include the likes of Grosjean (definitely pretty quick) and Stroll (some see great potential in him).


5 years ago you had Alonso, Button, Massa and Rosberg as well as almost all the strong midfield drivers you list. 4 years ago you have all those drivers and Verstappen. Leclerc, Norris etc may become as good as them but they aren't there yet. 2014 has 9 different race winners. Now we are down to 7 and that includes Kubica. Certainly the top 20 of 2014 were stronger.

I didn't realize you were only talking about a few years ago. I thought you meant in a long time.


I'd need to look into it to see how far back I'd go but my hunch would be pre 2003.

That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...

One small thing if you don't mind me barging in.

You can't mention "Alonso before his peak" and then compare him to Leclerc who is barely 2 races in his 2nd season... A bit of an uneven comparison there.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:54 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


Wilson came in as the 2nd tier champion. On the grid this year we have guys debuting who finished 2nd and 3rd at that level so I don't see how you can say Wilson wouldn't get near the grid?

Sato only drove 1 race as a replacement for Villeneuve. But even then he was F3 champion only a few years prior.

How do you know Kimi was no better in 2003 than he was in 2007? Even if he wasn't that is still a very high level.

Montoya and Ralf were both very good. I'm surprised honestly anyone would try to argue them as poorer than Hulkenberg.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:22 pm 
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I think generally the 'elite' drivers are not that special, because the cars are the dominant factor in F1.

Often we see the cars qualifying very adjacent to each other on the grid. You can have Ricciardo beating Vessel and then struggling to get a competitive car, because there are not enough competitive cars to go around, so we often only get comparisons of team mates.

With the data collection they have, they should be able to assess the driving style of a driver in terms of qualifying speed, but then the ability to race is more of a human judgement. With the current cars and DRS, it's not so important to be a good racer - if you can qualify fast and press a DRS button, you could be very successful.

I expect there are quite a few young drivers who could drive fast enough, and if they got the right opportunities they could probably do well in the current F1. If F1 was a sport with a lot of competitive cars, then the teams would have to focus more on getting the best drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:20 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
I think generally the 'elite' drivers are not that special, because the cars are the dominant factor in F1.

Often we see the cars qualifying very adjacent to each other on the grid. You can have Ricciardo beating Vessel and then struggling to get a competitive car, because there are not enough competitive cars to go around, so we often only get comparisons of team mates.

With the data collection they have, they should be able to assess the driving style of a driver in terms of qualifying speed, but then the ability to race is more of a human judgement. With the current cars and DRS, it's not so important to be a good racer - if you can qualify fast and press a DRS button, you could be very successful.

I expect there are quite a few young drivers who could drive fast enough, and if they got the right opportunities they could probably do well in the current F1. If F1 was a sport with a lot of competitive cars, then the teams would have to focus more on getting the best drivers.


The opportunities for finding the right drive and the disparity between cars and teams clouds the landscape. IMO each and every driver in Formula One are freaking good. But they do not stand out if they are not up front. And personally, I do not put much weight into team comparisons. That is the lazy person's method of finding value.

There are countless factors that can influence a driver's performance on the track, facts not available to the general public. For example, Sebastien Bourdais appeared to be a dog when he gave Formula One a go. Only after he was let go was it revealed that his driving style was the opposite of Vettel's driving style, and that the Toro Rosso was set up for Vettel's driving style.

And wow, are fans quick to reach conclusions. IMO a driver cannot be judged until twenty years after retirement.

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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I think generally the 'elite' drivers are not that special, because the cars are the dominant factor in F1.

Often we see the cars qualifying very adjacent to each other on the grid. You can have Ricciardo beating Vessel and then struggling to get a competitive car, because there are not enough competitive cars to go around, so we often only get comparisons of team mates.

With the data collection they have, they should be able to assess the driving style of a driver in terms of qualifying speed, but then the ability to race is more of a human judgement. With the current cars and DRS, it's not so important to be a good racer - if you can qualify fast and press a DRS button, you could be very successful.

I expect there are quite a few young drivers who could drive fast enough, and if they got the right opportunities they could probably do well in the current F1. If F1 was a sport with a lot of competitive cars, then the teams would have to focus more on getting the best drivers.


The opportunities for finding the right drive and the disparity between cars and teams clouds the landscape. IMO each and every driver in Formula One are freaking good. But they do not stand out if they are not up front. And personally, I do not put much weight into team comparisons. That is the lazy person's method of finding value.

There are countless factors that can influence a driver's performance on the track, facts not available to the general public. For example, Sebastien Bourdais appeared to be a dog when he gave Formula One a go. Only after he was let go was it revealed that his driving style was the opposite of Vettel's driving style, and that the Toro Rosso was set up for Vettel's driving style.

And wow, are fans quick to reach conclusions. IMO a driver cannot be judged until twenty years after retirement.

Bourdais was let go because a year later he was getting beat by a rookie called Buemi who himself didn't really last that long in F1.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


Wilson came in as the 2nd tier champion. On the grid this year we have guys debuting who finished 2nd and 3rd at that level so I don't see how you can say Wilson wouldn't get near the grid?

Sato only drove 1 race as a replacement for Villeneuve. But even then he was F3 champion only a few years prior.

How do you know Kimi was no better in 2003 than he was in 2007? Even if he wasn't that is still a very high level.

Montoya and Ralf were both very good. I'm surprised honestly anyone would try to argue them as poorer than Hulkenberg.

I'm wondering the opposite. Montoya was unable to keep par with Raikkonen; himself since proven to be roughly on par with Massa (though if we're being completely fair, Felipe bested him while they were teammates) and worlds apart from the likes of Alonso and Vettel. Ralf is a driver who was solid but nothing too special and was not a match for Montoya overall. By comparison; short sample size but Hulk is holding his own quite nicely against Ricciardo so far (a driver who got the better of Vettel over a season as teammates). I'm not trying to make too much of teammate comparisons alone but I think the evidence suggests that Hulkenberg is a cut above the likes of Ralf and Montoya at least in terms of raw pace.

The idea that Sato and Wilson are in any way up there with today's F1 drivers is extremely suspect. They were also not the only ones on the grid back then who would have no prayer of making it today. Ralf Firman, Jos Verstappen and others would have not chance on today's grid. Today Kevin Magnussen might be the worst driver in F1 (excluding post-injury Kubica) and he would have been middle of the pack in 2003.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


Wilson came in as the 2nd tier champion. On the grid this year we have guys debuting who finished 2nd and 3rd at that level so I don't see how you can say Wilson wouldn't get near the grid?

Sato only drove 1 race as a replacement for Villeneuve. But even then he was F3 champion only a few years prior.

How do you know Kimi was no better in 2003 than he was in 2007? Even if he wasn't that is still a very high level.

Montoya and Ralf were both very good. I'm surprised honestly anyone would try to argue them as poorer than Hulkenberg.

I'm wondering the opposite. Montoya was unable to keep par with Raikkonen; himself since proven to be roughly on par with Massa (though if we're being completely fair, Felipe bested him while they were teammates) and worlds apart from the likes of Alonso and Vettel. Ralf is a driver who was solid but nothing too special and was not a match for Montoya overall. By comparison; short sample size but Hulk is holding his own quite nicely against Ricciardo so far (a driver who got the better of Vettel over a season as teammates). I'm not trying to make too much of teammate comparisons alone but I think the evidence suggests that Hulkenberg is a cut above the likes of Ralf and Montoya at least in terms of raw pace.

The idea that Sato and Wilson are in any way up there with today's F1 drivers is extremely suspect. They were also not the only ones on the grid back then who would have no prayer of making it today. Ralf Firman, Jos Verstappen and others would have not chance on today's grid. Today Kevin Magnussen might be the worst driver in F1 (excluding post-injury Kubica) and he would have been middle of the pack in 2003.

I almost feel like it's a Monty Python moment, kids today they think they've got it hard, when I was growing up I had to sleep in a cupboard drawer.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


Wilson came in as the 2nd tier champion. On the grid this year we have guys debuting who finished 2nd and 3rd at that level so I don't see how you can say Wilson wouldn't get near the grid?

Sato only drove 1 race as a replacement for Villeneuve. But even then he was F3 champion only a few years prior.

How do you know Kimi was no better in 2003 than he was in 2007? Even if he wasn't that is still a very high level.

Montoya and Ralf were both very good. I'm surprised honestly anyone would try to argue them as poorer than Hulkenberg.

I'm wondering the opposite. Montoya was unable to keep par with Raikkonen; himself since proven to be roughly on par with Massa (though if we're being completely fair, Felipe bested him while they were teammates) and worlds apart from the likes of Alonso and Vettel. Ralf is a driver who was solid but nothing too special and was not a match for Montoya overall. By comparison; short sample size but Hulk is holding his own quite nicely against Ricciardo so far (a driver who got the better of Vettel over a season as teammates). I'm not trying to make too much of teammate comparisons alone but I think the evidence suggests that Hulkenberg is a cut above the likes of Ralf and Montoya at least in terms of raw pace.

The idea that Sato and Wilson are in any way up there with today's F1 drivers is extremely suspect. They were also not the only ones on the grid back then who would have no prayer of making it today. Ralf Firman, Jos Verstappen and others would have not chance on today's grid. Today Kevin Magnussen might be the worst driver in F1 (excluding post-injury Kubica) and he would have been middle of the pack in 2003.


Why are you assuming Norris, Albon or Giovinazzi are better than Wilson? What are you basing that on? I also don't understand why you would think Jos Verstappen was worse than say Magnussen either? Again, what is that based on?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


Wilson came in as the 2nd tier champion. On the grid this year we have guys debuting who finished 2nd and 3rd at that level so I don't see how you can say Wilson wouldn't get near the grid?

Sato only drove 1 race as a replacement for Villeneuve. But even then he was F3 champion only a few years prior.

How do you know Kimi was no better in 2003 than he was in 2007? Even if he wasn't that is still a very high level.

Montoya and Ralf were both very good. I'm surprised honestly anyone would try to argue them as poorer than Hulkenberg.

I'm wondering the opposite. Montoya was unable to keep par with Raikkonen; himself since proven to be roughly on par with Massa (though if we're being completely fair, Felipe bested him while they were teammates) and worlds apart from the likes of Alonso and Vettel. Ralf is a driver who was solid but nothing too special and was not a match for Montoya overall. By comparison; short sample size but Hulk is holding his own quite nicely against Ricciardo so far (a driver who got the better of Vettel over a season as teammates). I'm not trying to make too much of teammate comparisons alone but I think the evidence suggests that Hulkenberg is a cut above the likes of Ralf and Montoya at least in terms of raw pace.

The idea that Sato and Wilson are in any way up there with today's F1 drivers is extremely suspect. They were also not the only ones on the grid back then who would have no prayer of making it today. Ralf Firman, Jos Verstappen and others would have not chance on today's grid. Today Kevin Magnussen might be the worst driver in F1 (excluding post-injury Kubica) and he would have been middle of the pack in 2003.


Why are you assuming Norris, Albon or Giovinazzi are better than Wilson? What are you basing that on? I also don't understand why you would think Jos Verstappen was worse than say Magnussen either? Again, what is that based on?

Wilson was a bit unlucky as I recall, due to having some issues with financial backing but he only raced one season in F1. The drivers you pointed out are literally in their first couple of F1 races so it's hard to peg them one way or the other. Is that why you chose them for your question? Because they don't yet have an F1 track record? Think about that; you literally had to pick drivers with only 2 races under their belt to find someone on today's grid that would provide any reasonable doubt.

As for Jos Verstappen; he raced quite a while in F1 and never really accomplished much. In fact, I'm pretty sure Justin Wilson got the best of him for the brief time that they were teammates. Jos lost out to most of his teammates in F1. In fact it was somewhat rare for him to even finish a race. Your memory might be a little fuzzy if you're trying to claim that Jos was an outstanding performer in F1. I don't rate Magnussen but he's easily better than Jos IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.


Wilson came in as the 2nd tier champion. On the grid this year we have guys debuting who finished 2nd and 3rd at that level so I don't see how you can say Wilson wouldn't get near the grid?

Sato only drove 1 race as a replacement for Villeneuve. But even then he was F3 champion only a few years prior.

How do you know Kimi was no better in 2003 than he was in 2007? Even if he wasn't that is still a very high level.

Montoya and Ralf were both very good. I'm surprised honestly anyone would try to argue them as poorer than Hulkenberg.

I'm wondering the opposite. Montoya was unable to keep par with Raikkonen; himself since proven to be roughly on par with Massa (though if we're being completely fair, Felipe bested him while they were teammates) and worlds apart from the likes of Alonso and Vettel. Ralf is a driver who was solid but nothing too special and was not a match for Montoya overall. By comparison; short sample size but Hulk is holding his own quite nicely against Ricciardo so far (a driver who got the better of Vettel over a season as teammates). I'm not trying to make too much of teammate comparisons alone but I think the evidence suggests that Hulkenberg is a cut above the likes of Ralf and Montoya at least in terms of raw pace.

The idea that Sato and Wilson are in any way up there with today's F1 drivers is extremely suspect. They were also not the only ones on the grid back then who would have no prayer of making it today. Ralf Firman, Jos Verstappen and others would have not chance on today's grid. Today Kevin Magnussen might be the worst driver in F1 (excluding post-injury Kubica) and he would have been middle of the pack in 2003.


Why are you assuming Norris, Albon or Giovinazzi are better than Wilson? What are you basing that on? I also don't understand why you would think Jos Verstappen was worse than say Magnussen either? Again, what is that based on?

Wilson was a bit unlucky as I recall, due to having some issues with financial backing but he only raced one season in F1. The drivers you pointed out are literally in their first couple of F1 races so it's hard to peg them one way or the other. Is that why you chose them for your question? Because they don't yet have an F1 track record? Think about that; you literally had to pick drivers with only 2 races under their belt to find someone on today's grid that would provide any reasonable doubt.

As for Jos Verstappen; he raced quite a while in F1 and never really accomplished much. In fact, I'm pretty sure Justin Wilson got the best of him for the brief time that they were teammates. Jos lost out to most of his teammates in F1. In fact it was somewhat rare for him to even finish a race. Your memory might be a little fuzzy if you're trying to claim that Jos was an outstanding performer in F1. I don't rate Magnussen but he's easily better than Jos IMO.


No I'm looking at 2003 as it was then and now as it is now. So I chose them because they are the direct comparison for Wilson. Wilson obviously making his debut in 2003. Where did I claim Jos was an outstanding performer?


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At 6'4" and 80kg, and with no major financial backing (relative to most others) - just by making it to F1 shows Wilson had a hell of a lot of talent.

He makes Hulk (6'0 and 75kg) look a midget.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

Really??? Fisi rated 2nd best behind Schumi in 2002? I was a part of three F1 forums and consulate reader of internet F1 related articles in 2002 and I don't recall EVER seeing Fisichella rated that highly. I know James like Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard and brother Ralf having were given such considereation, but not Fisi.

To address Mike's thoughts on Hulk, I agree with him. Hulk is a good driver, but I would not rank him above those that I already mentioned above, nor above Kimi, Button...or even Webber.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:04 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

Really??? Fisi rated 2nd best behind Schumi in 2002? I was a part of three F1 forums and consulate reader of internet F1 related articles in 2002 and I don't recall EVER seeing Fisichella rated that highly. I know James like Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard and brother Ralf having were given such considereation, but not Fisi.

To address Mike's thoughts on Hulk, I agree with him. Hulk is a good driver, but I would not rank him above those that I already mentioned above, nor above Kimi, Button...or even Webber.


There was an article in F1 racing magazine that argued that Fisi was the second best at that time. I think people look at his later career and forget just how good he was in midfield cars. Of course this was before the likes of Button, Kimi and Alonso established themselves.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:34 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

Really??? Fisi rated 2nd best behind Schumi in 2002? I was a part of three F1 forums and consulate reader of internet F1 related articles in 2002 and I don't recall EVER seeing Fisichella rated that highly. I know James like Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard and brother Ralf having were given such considereation, but not Fisi.

To address Mike's thoughts on Hulk, I agree with him. Hulk is a good driver, but I would not rank him above those that I already mentioned above, nor above Kimi, Button...or even Webber.


There was an article in F1 racing magazine that argued that Fisi was the second best at that time. I think people look at his later career and forget just how good he was in midfield cars. Of course this was before the likes of Button, Kimi and Alonso established themselves.

thanks, mikey. I don't even come close to agreeing to the article's principle, but at least I know where poker's comment came from. I do remember Fisi as being a very capable driver, I do believe there were several better.

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