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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:21 am 
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Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:44 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.

So much wrong here… where to begin.

You speak of Raikkonen and Massa as if they’re whatever drivers, yet you hold a higher opinion of Button??!?!??

The guy who’s sole championship came when driving a car that was initially all-conquering and head and shoulders ahead of everyone else and barely hung on to take home the championship??!?
Raikkonen and Massa is were far more competitive in more seasons than Button so idk how you rate them so low. And by 2003 Button had done absolutely NOTHING to make anyone see anything except being slightly better than those drivers who lost their seats for 2004. From 2004 - 2008 Button did what exactly to show he’d improved any further from 2003??!? I respect his ability, but so much Bull was said about his finessing touch and how he could do things with tires no one else could get the Pirellis exposed that as pure BS. The supposed tire whisperer had more issues than ANYONE else, including rookies and pay drivers!

Ralf Schumacher was also a solid driver, and I’d dare say better than Button. His problem was landing a seat on the right team, but the days when his team got his car just right he was so untouchable it even his brother could touch him, never mind Button. Lol

Now where you really got me in all this is when you said Montoya is inferior to Kimi because that simply isn’t true. Montoya was noticeably better than Alonso before Alonso won his 2 titles and he was upset going into the 2006 season because they’d already signed Alonso for 2007 and Raikkonen was Ron’s Golden boy so it meant Montoya was going to be the odd man out. This cause tension in the team and upset Montoya to the point the relationship was toxic and When Ron Dennis asked him not to return he said the car sucks anyway so I’m outta here.

What no one knew was that Ferrari was ousting Schumacher and Co from the team and di Montezemelo has signed Raikkonen to replace him as he too wanted the Iceman.

If Raikkonen was as not up to scratch as you claim, she were the boasss of the 2 top teams in the sport so keen to sign him. These guys don’t make decisions based on what you see on TV, they have multi million dollar equipment that teletrates performance via providing HARD DATA that breaks down performance to a degree you cannot imagine. But I guess your calibrated eye knows more than two of the greatest and most sophisticated racing outfits in the entirety of the world.

Go figure, Raikkonen is STILL a commodity in the sport so I guess you must be right. 🤦🏽‍♂️

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:50 am 
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Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I’m not sure if the cars are easier.
However apparently the old V8 engines were more intimidating when you first stepped into the car.
You had to rev them out to 18,000 rpm and they were obviously much louder.

I remember reading an article comparing Button and Kmag when they were paired at McLaren in 2014.
Kmag changed gears at less revs than Button, however the lap times were similar.
They put it down to added torque of the electric motor that made it less critical at what revs you changed gears.
If they were in the V8 engines, Kmag’s approach would have been slower.

(Edit: something like 12,000 rpm for Button and 11,500 rpm for Kmag)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:18 am 
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Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I think the worst of the drivers from 03 were poorer than the worst of the drivers today but I think the midfield then was quite a lot stronger. Certainly a lot more proven strength.

Trying to get a top 10 this year I struggle to find 10 drivers in the field I find worthy. With 03 i have the opposite.

Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:25 am 
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Randine wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I’m not sure if the cars are easier.
However apparently the old V8 engines were more intimidating when you first stepped into the car.
You had to rev them out to 18,000 rpm and they were obviously much louder.

I remember reading an article comparing Button and Kmag when they were paired at McLaren in 2014.
Kmag changed gears at less revs than Button, however the lap times were similar.
They put it down to added torque of the electric motor that made it less critical at what revs you changed gears.
If they were in the V8 engines, Kmag’s approach would have been slower.

(Edit: something like 12,000 rpm for Button and 11,500 rpm for Kmag)


Easy was in reference to all the drivers aids, engine automatisms and pitwall baby-sitting that reduced drivers errors to the minimun (and safety of the cars that allows to be stupid..?).
It still wouldn't prevent me from being ranked "desperate"...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:31 am 
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The circuits definitely make it easier for average drivers to look like good ones. Once was that only the true great could drive on the limit at all times and get it right enough for it to pay. One slight error, running wide or a locked brake could well be race ending. Now any driver can pitch his car into a corner right on the limit and if they get it wrong and run wide 1 lap out of 10 so what?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:00 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

Really??? Fisi rated 2nd best behind Schumi in 2002? I was a part of three F1 forums and consulate reader of internet F1 related articles in 2002 and I don't recall EVER seeing Fisichella rated that highly. I know James like Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard and brother Ralf having were given such considereation, but not Fisi.

To address Mike's thoughts on Hulk, I agree with him. Hulk is a good driver, but I would not rank him above those that I already mentioned above, nor above Kimi, Button...or even Webber.

Quote:
Here is rating from the first 16 races until Indy 2002 (save only Suzuka 02). Autosport/Mark Hughes's driver ratings:


1 M Schumacher

2 Fisichella

3 Räikkönen

4 Webber

Coulthard

6 Barrichello

7 Montoya

8 Trulli

9 Button

Panis

Salo

12 Frentzen

13 R Schumacher

Heidfeld

Villeneuve

16 De la Rosa

McNish

Irvine

19 Sato

20 Massa 8 7 4 8 7 6 4 7 7 6 5 8 8 8 6 6.67

21 Bernoldi

22 Davidson

23 Yoong

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Posts: 31555
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

Really??? Fisi rated 2nd best behind Schumi in 2002? I was a part of three F1 forums and consulate reader of internet F1 related articles in 2002 and I don't recall EVER seeing Fisichella rated that highly. I know James like Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard and brother Ralf having were given such considereation, but not Fisi.

To address Mike's thoughts on Hulk, I agree with him. Hulk is a good driver, but I would not rank him above those that I already mentioned above, nor above Kimi, Button...or even Webber.


There was an article in F1 racing magazine that argued that Fisi was the second best at that time. I think people look at his later career and forget just how good he was in midfield cars. Of course this was before the likes of Button, Kimi and Alonso established themselves.

thanks, mikey. I don't even come close to agreeing to the article's principle, but at least I know where poker's comment came from. I do remember Fisi as being a very capable driver, I do believe there were several better.

That wouldn't be a case of me reading that particular article it would be from watching F1 and gauging perceived opinion of the F1 experts.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:03 pm 
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Posts: 31555
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

That would be Fissichella that lost out to a rookie called Kovalainen in 2007 who then got white washed by Hamilton, Fissichella who back in 2002 was thought to be the second best driver in F1 behind Schumacher?

Really??? Fisi rated 2nd best behind Schumi in 2002? I was a part of three F1 forums and consulate reader of internet F1 related articles in 2002 and I don't recall EVER seeing Fisichella rated that highly. I know James like Barrichello, Montoya, Coulthard and brother Ralf having were given such considereation, but not Fisi.

To address Mike's thoughts on Hulk, I agree with him. Hulk is a good driver, but I would not rank him above those that I already mentioned above, nor above Kimi, Button...or even Webber.


There was an article in F1 racing magazine that argued that Fisi was the second best at that time. I think people look at his later career and forget just how good he was in midfield cars. Of course this was before the likes of Button, Kimi and Alonso established themselves.

Cheers :thumbup:

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:06 pm 
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Posts: 31555
Randine wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I’m not sure if the cars are easier.
However apparently the old V8 engines were more intimidating when you first stepped into the car.
You had to rev them out to 18,000 rpm and they were obviously much louder.

I remember reading an article comparing Button and Kmag when they were paired at McLaren in 2014.
Kmag changed gears at less revs than Button, however the lap times were similar.
They put it down to added torque of the electric motor that made it less critical at what revs you changed gears.
If they were in the V8 engines, Kmag’s approach would have been slower.

(Edit: something like 12,000 rpm for Button and 11,500 rpm for Kmag)

When F1 drivers first stepped into the V8 cars they were not impressed at all about how gutless the engines were after previously driving the V10 cars.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I think the worst of the drivers from 03 were poorer than the worst of the drivers today but I think the midfield then was quite a lot stronger. Certainly a lot more proven strength.

Trying to get a top 10 this year I struggle to find 10 drivers in the field I find worthy. With 03 i have the opposite.

Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

You're basically making a judgement on a third of today's grid who have yet to fully establish how good they might be, the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc might become all time greats whilst some of the newer drivers might become world champions?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I think the worst of the drivers from 03 were poorer than the worst of the drivers today but I think the midfield then was quite a lot stronger. Certainly a lot more proven strength.

Trying to get a top 10 this year I struggle to find 10 drivers in the field I find worthy. With 03 i have the opposite.

Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

You're basically making a judgement on a third of today's grid who have yet to fully establish how good they might be, the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc might become all time greats whilst some of the newer drivers might become world champions?


I am viewing this grid as it is now compared to the 2003 grid as it was then.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I think the worst of the drivers from 03 were poorer than the worst of the drivers today but I think the midfield then was quite a lot stronger. Certainly a lot more proven strength.

Trying to get a top 10 this year I struggle to find 10 drivers in the field I find worthy. With 03 i have the opposite.

Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

You're basically making a judgement on a third of today's grid who have yet to fully establish how good they might be, the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc might become all time greats whilst some of the newer drivers might become world champions?


I am viewing this grid as it is now compared to the 2003 grid as it was then.

In respect to 2003 is that possible to do in hindsight, I think not?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Could it be just that today's cars are so easy to drive that every driver look like they deserve to be ranked from good to great, but wouldn't have been that impressive in yesterday's cars (not to mention the days before yesterday) ?


I think the worst of the drivers from 03 were poorer than the worst of the drivers today but I think the midfield then was quite a lot stronger. Certainly a lot more proven strength.

Trying to get a top 10 this year I struggle to find 10 drivers in the field I find worthy. With 03 i have the opposite.

Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

You're basically making a judgement on a third of today's grid who have yet to fully establish how good they might be, the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc might become all time greats whilst some of the newer drivers might become world champions?


I am viewing this grid as it is now compared to the 2003 grid as it was then.

In respect to 2003 is that possible to do in hindsight, I think not?


Of course it is. I was around at the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:41 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.

So much wrong here… where to begin.

You speak of Raikkonen and Massa as if they’re whatever drivers, yet you hold a higher opinion of Button??!?!??

The guy who’s sole championship came when driving a car that was initially all-conquering and head and shoulders ahead of everyone else and barely hung on to take home the championship??!?
Raikkonen and Massa is were far more competitive in more seasons than Button so idk how you rate them so low. And by 2003 Button had done absolutely NOTHING to make anyone see anything except being slightly better than those drivers who lost their seats for 2004. From 2004 - 2008 Button did what exactly to show he’d improved any further from 2003??!? I respect his ability, but so much Bull was said about his finessing touch and how he could do things with tires no one else could get the Pirellis exposed that as pure BS. The supposed tire whisperer had more issues than ANYONE else, including rookies and pay drivers!

Ralf Schumacher was also a solid driver, and I’d dare say better than Button. His problem was landing a seat on the right team, but the days when his team got his car just right he was so untouchable it even his brother could touch him, never mind Button. Lol

Now where you really got me in all this is when you said Montoya is inferior to Kimi because that simply isn’t true. Montoya was noticeably better than Alonso before Alonso won his 2 titles and he was upset going into the 2006 season because they’d already signed Alonso for 2007 and Raikkonen was Ron’s Golden boy so it meant Montoya was going to be the odd man out. This cause tension in the team and upset Montoya to the point the relationship was toxic and When Ron Dennis asked him not to return he said the car sucks anyway so I’m outta here.

What no one knew was that Ferrari was ousting Schumacher and Co from the team and di Montezemelo has signed Raikkonen to replace him as he too wanted the Iceman.

If Raikkonen was as not up to scratch as you claim, she were the boasss of the 2 top teams in the sport so keen to sign him. These guys don’t make decisions based on what you see on TV, they have multi million dollar equipment that teletrates performance via providing HARD DATA that breaks down performance to a degree you cannot imagine. But I guess your calibrated eye knows more than two of the greatest and most sophisticated racing outfits in the entirety of the world.

Go figure, Raikkonen is STILL a commodity in the sport so I guess you must be right. 🤦🏽‍♂️

Honestly man I completely disagree with everything you've written. I think the issue is that you make no attempt whatsoever to separate the driver from the car. If you actually want to claim that Montoya was better than Alonso I don't think we are even in the same universe. Montoya certainly had a better car than Alonso but he was NOT a better driver. Likewise Kimi drove some of the best cars during those years but he was exposed the moment he was teamed with drivers who were truly top tier so that he no longer had a car advantage over them.

Honestly your perspective is completely alien to me. As for the Button v Raikkonen thing; who held their own better when teamed with top tier talent? Raikkonen, Massa or Button? Button was respectable both as Hamilton's teammate and as Alonso's. Massa and Raikkonen were demolished when teamed with Alonso, Vettel and Schumacher. That's my reasoning. What's yours? Is it just that Kimi is cool and he's the Ice Man and all that same old tired stuff? Because that has gotten really old at this point.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think the worst of the drivers from 03 were poorer than the worst of the drivers today but I think the midfield then was quite a lot stronger. Certainly a lot more proven strength.

Trying to get a top 10 this year I struggle to find 10 drivers in the field I find worthy. With 03 i have the opposite.

Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

You're basically making a judgement on a third of today's grid who have yet to fully establish how good they might be, the likes of Verstappen and Leclerc might become all time greats whilst some of the newer drivers might become world champions?


I am viewing this grid as it is now compared to the 2003 grid as it was then.

In respect to 2003 is that possible to do in hindsight, I think not?


Of course it is. I was around at the time.

So was I but it's remembering what you might have thought at time against how your memory might be now coloured against how their careers turned out?

Looking at the WDC table:-

1. Michael Schumacher 93pts
2. Raikkonen 91pts
3. Montoya 82pts
4. Barrichello 65pts
5. Ralf Schumcaher 58pts
6. Alonso 55pts

That was Kimi's third season in F1 and I would be guessing he was rated as the second best driver at that point, how has Kimi measured up on today's grid these past 5 years?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:54 pm 
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[quote="pokerman"]

Pretty certain Kimi is a different now than he was in 03. I don't think I have a problem looking at how they would be rated in 2003.


I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

:?

If you are better at the front and at the back you are almost certain to be better in the middle too. The guys in the middle in 2003 would be at the back today and many of the guys at the front in 2003 would be in the middle today (Raikkonen is a chief example).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Pretty certain Kimi is a different now than he was in 03. I don't think I have a problem looking at how they would be rated in 2003.


I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

Different or had to face stronger competition later in his career?

I'm sure you are crediting Button as being a strong driver in 2003 but at that point he had achieved very little in F1 having just been sacked by Renault and he had yet to beat Villenueve for instance, then against that on today's grid we have drivers that have simply not had a chance to do anything yet, they're just classed as not being that strong?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

:?

If you are better at the front and at the back you are almost certain to be better in the middle too. The guys in the middle in 2003 would be at the back today and many of the guys at the front in 2003 would be in the middle today (Raikkonen is a chief example).

Yeah that kind of doesn't make any sense? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:37 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

:?

If you are better at the front and at the back you are almost certain to be better in the middle too. The guys in the middle in 2003 would be at the back today and many of the guys at the front in 2003 would be in the middle today (Raikkonen is a chief example).


That makes no sense. You honestly think guys like Heidfeld, Webber, Frentzen and Fissichella would be among the worst on todays grid? I don't think they are any worse than say Perez who would have to be in anyone tops 10 on todays grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

:?

If you are better at the front and at the back you are almost certain to be better in the middle too. The guys in the middle in 2003 would be at the back today and many of the guys at the front in 2003 would be in the middle today (Raikkonen is a chief example).


That makes no sense. You honestly think guys like Heidfeld, Webber, Frentzen and Fissichella would be among the worst on todays grid? I don't think they are any worse than say Perez who would have to be in anyone tops 10 on todays grid.

I think Heidfeld and Webber would both still be middle of the pack but I'd say that Frentzen and Fisichella would both be towards the very bottom.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

:?

If you are better at the front and at the back you are almost certain to be better in the middle too. The guys in the middle in 2003 would be at the back today and many of the guys at the front in 2003 would be in the middle today (Raikkonen is a chief example).


That makes no sense. You honestly think guys like Heidfeld, Webber, Frentzen and Fissichella would be among the worst on todays grid? I don't think they are any worse than say Perez who would have to be in anyone tops 10 on todays grid.

I think Heidfeld and Webber would both still be middle of the pack but I'd say that Frentzen and Fisichella would both be towards the very bottom.


Fissichella? Really? Why would you think him poorer than someone like Bottas?

Remember this is Fissichella in 03.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Bottas hasn't exactly covered himself in glory in 2017 and 2018...

The new wave is very exciting, but it's also far too early to judge a couple of them who on paper promise to be very serious additions to the F1 grid - Lando Norris and George Russell.

The scene feels so fresh right now that the strength of the current grid feels very provisional. What we do know is that from 2018-2019 a quite colossal talent was lost in Alonso. Early indications show that Leclerc could be quite special, which is great.

Generally, my sense of the current grid is one of excitement to see how it all shakes out. The driver lineups have changed in 8 of the 10 teams and there are a lot of inexperienced and young F1 drivers at the beginning of their journeys. I wonder if there will be any surprises in the group as compared to early and somewhat blind prognostications.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think right at the front and the back 2019 is better but all the way through the middle 2003 has way more depth.

:?

If you are better at the front and at the back you are almost certain to be better in the middle too. The guys in the middle in 2003 would be at the back today and many of the guys at the front in 2003 would be in the middle today (Raikkonen is a chief example).


That makes no sense. You honestly think guys like Heidfeld, Webber, Frentzen and Fissichella would be among the worst on todays grid? I don't think they are any worse than say Perez who would have to be in anyone tops 10 on todays grid.

I think Heidfeld and Webber would both still be middle of the pack but I'd say that Frentzen and Fisichella would both be towards the very bottom.


Fissichella? Really? Why would you think him poorer than someone like Bottas?

Remember this is Fissichella in 03.

Fisichella wasn't even a match for Heikki Kovaleinen when they were teammates; who was less competitive relative to a young Lewis Hamilton than Bottas is today.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Fisichella wasn't even a match for Heikki Kovaleinen when they were teammates; who was less competitive relative to a young Lewis Hamilton than Bottas is today.


But we are talking about Fissichella in 2003.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Fisichella wasn't even a match for Heikki Kovaleinen when they were teammates; who was less competitive relative to a young Lewis Hamilton than Bottas is today.


But we are talking about Fissichella in 2003.

That's just 4 years earlier. Fisi was a solid midfielder for his day but today's field is stronger IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Fisichella wasn't even a match for Heikki Kovaleinen when they were teammates; who was less competitive relative to a young Lewis Hamilton than Bottas is today.


But we are talking about Fissichella in 2003.

That's just 4 years earlier. Fisi was a solid midfielder for his day but today's field is stronger IMO.


Fisi was one of the best drivers of bad cars of the last 20 years. He was crushed by not being as good as Alonso. He wasn't the last.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

Going with your list, I would say that today's top five are substantially stronger. I think Schumacher is the only one from the 2003 list who would belong on today's top five (although a slightly later Alonso certainly would as well). However, today's top five have a sizable gap between themselves and the rest of the current grid, so that doesn't show the complete picture.

From sixth to twelfth I see the two as quite comparable. Button was only a tiny bit better than Perez in 2013, when Button was much better than in 2003 and Perez was probably weaker than today. I have no problem seeing Hulk as superior to Ralf. Fisi was probably a bit better than Bottas, but again, comparable. I think he would have been embarrassed alongside a current-spec Hamilton. Raikkonen and Webber I see as being pretty similar drivers, with a slight edge to a 2003-era Webber vs. a current Raikkonen. Sainz I would see as better than Coulthard any day of the week. Grosjean is less consistent than Heidfeld, so arguably weaker. It's too early to compare Norris and Trulli, but right now I'd give Trulli the edge.

The group right below that - from Magnussen to Kvyat - is the only one where I think the 2003 grid might have an advantage. Frentzen I think was certainly better than Magnussen, and Villeneuve quite possibly better than Gasly. Albon is probably too fresh to compare, but I can believe Panis as superior. Jos Verstappen was quite possibly better than Kvyat.

Below that, however, I see it as a slaughter. Russel is a far superior driver to Wilson, and in fact I think you have him much too low on your list. Stroll is probably somewhere around Da Matta, but Giovinazzi and Kubica are certainly better than Pizzonia and Firman. I don't see it being close at the bottom.

In other words, I really have a hard time agreeing with you. I think the current grid is better at about 75% of the positions compared to the 2003 grid, assuming Schumi and Hamilton are roughly equal.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:33 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

Going with your list, I would say that today's top five are substantially stronger. I think Schumacher is the only one from the 2003 list who would belong on today's top five (although a slightly later Alonso certainly would as well). However, today's top five have a sizable gap between themselves and the rest of the current grid, so that doesn't show the complete picture.

From sixth to twelfth I see the two as quite comparable. Button was only a tiny bit better than Perez in 2013, when Button was much better than in 2003 and Perez was probably weaker than today. I have no problem seeing Hulk as superior to Ralf. Fisi was probably a bit better than Bottas, but again, comparable. I think he would have been embarrassed alongside a current-spec Hamilton. Raikkonen and Webber I see as being pretty similar drivers, with a slight edge to a 2003-era Webber vs. a current Raikkonen. Sainz I would see as better than Coulthard any day of the week. Grosjean is less consistent than Heidfeld, so arguably weaker. It's too early to compare Norris and Trulli, but right now I'd give Trulli the edge.

The group right below that - from Magnussen to Kvyat - is the only one where I think the 2003 grid might have an advantage. Frentzen I think was certainly better than Magnussen, and Villeneuve quite possibly better than Gasly. Albon is probably too fresh to compare, but I can believe Panis as superior. Jos Verstappen was quite possibly better than Kvyat.

Below that, however, I see it as a slaughter. Russel is a far superior driver to Wilson, and in fact I think you have him much too low on your list. Stroll is probably somewhere around Da Matta, but Giovinazzi and Kubica are certainly better than Pizzonia and Firman. I don't see it being close at the bottom.

In other words, I really have a hard time agreeing with you. I think the current grid is better at about 75% of the positions compared to the 2003 grid, assuming Schumi and Hamilton are roughly equal.


Interested to know why you think Russell is far better than Wilson? Otherwise fair enough. I disagree on some of it but don't think it's unreasonable.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

Going with your list, I would say that today's top five are substantially stronger. I think Schumacher is the only one from the 2003 list who would belong on today's top five (although a slightly later Alonso certainly would as well). However, today's top five have a sizable gap between themselves and the rest of the current grid, so that doesn't show the complete picture.

From sixth to twelfth I see the two as quite comparable. Button was only a tiny bit better than Perez in 2013, when Button was much better than in 2003 and Perez was probably weaker than today. I have no problem seeing Hulk as superior to Ralf. Fisi was probably a bit better than Bottas, but again, comparable. I think he would have been embarrassed alongside a current-spec Hamilton. Raikkonen and Webber I see as being pretty similar drivers, with a slight edge to a 2003-era Webber vs. a current Raikkonen. Sainz I would see as better than Coulthard any day of the week. Grosjean is less consistent than Heidfeld, so arguably weaker. It's too early to compare Norris and Trulli, but right now I'd give Trulli the edge.

The group right below that - from Magnussen to Kvyat - is the only one where I think the 2003 grid might have an advantage. Frentzen I think was certainly better than Magnussen, and Villeneuve quite possibly better than Gasly. Albon is probably too fresh to compare, but I can believe Panis as superior. Jos Verstappen was quite possibly better than Kvyat.

Below that, however, I see it as a slaughter. Russel is a far superior driver to Wilson, and in fact I think you have him much too low on your list. Stroll is probably somewhere around Da Matta, but Giovinazzi and Kubica are certainly better than Pizzonia and Firman. I don't see it being close at the bottom.

In other words, I really have a hard time agreeing with you. I think the current grid is better at about 75% of the positions compared to the 2003 grid, assuming Schumi and Hamilton are roughly equal.

Interested to know why you think Russell is far better than Wilson? Otherwise fair enough. I disagree on some of it but don't think it's unreasonable.

Mostly just that I rate Russell very highly - higher than Norris or Albon, and somewhere in the Ocon/Hulkenberg range. But I do admit that it's very difficult to tell how to rate him in that Williams.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:51 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

Going with your list, I would say that today's top five are substantially stronger. I think Schumacher is the only one from the 2003 list who would belong on today's top five (although a slightly later Alonso certainly would as well). However, today's top five have a sizable gap between themselves and the rest of the current grid, so that doesn't show the complete picture.

From sixth to twelfth I see the two as quite comparable. Button was only a tiny bit better than Perez in 2013, when Button was much better than in 2003 and Perez was probably weaker than today. I have no problem seeing Hulk as superior to Ralf. Fisi was probably a bit better than Bottas, but again, comparable. I think he would have been embarrassed alongside a current-spec Hamilton. Raikkonen and Webber I see as being pretty similar drivers, with a slight edge to a 2003-era Webber vs. a current Raikkonen. Sainz I would see as better than Coulthard any day of the week. Grosjean is less consistent than Heidfeld, so arguably weaker. It's too early to compare Norris and Trulli, but right now I'd give Trulli the edge.

The group right below that - from Magnussen to Kvyat - is the only one where I think the 2003 grid might have an advantage. Frentzen I think was certainly better than Magnussen, and Villeneuve quite possibly better than Gasly. Albon is probably too fresh to compare, but I can believe Panis as superior. Jos Verstappen was quite possibly better than Kvyat.

Below that, however, I see it as a slaughter. Russel is a far superior driver to Wilson, and in fact I think you have him much too low on your list. Stroll is probably somewhere around Da Matta, but Giovinazzi and Kubica are certainly better than Pizzonia and Firman. I don't see it being close at the bottom.

In other words, I really have a hard time agreeing with you. I think the current grid is better at about 75% of the positions compared to the 2003 grid, assuming Schumi and Hamilton are roughly equal.

Interested to know why you think Russell is far better than Wilson? Otherwise fair enough. I disagree on some of it but don't think it's unreasonable.

Mostly just that I rate Russell very highly - higher than Norris or Albon, and somewhere in the Ocon/Hulkenberg range. But I do admit that it's very difficult to tell how to rate him in that Williams.


Thing is both Wilson and Russell came in as second tier champions. Two races into their F1 careers, both driving back markers, I think it would be unfair to judge either as much better than the other.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Fisichella wasn't even a match for Heikki Kovaleinen when they were teammates; who was less competitive relative to a young Lewis Hamilton than Bottas is today.


But we are talking about Fissichella in 2003.

That's just 4 years earlier. Fisi was a solid midfielder for his day but today's field is stronger IMO.


Fisi was one of the best drivers of bad cars of the last 20 years. He was crushed by not being as good as Alonso. He wasn't the last.

I don't understand all this that was Kimi of 03 that was Fisichella of 03, they were drivers near the top of the pile in 03 that later got found out.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Taking the top 20 from both -

Hamilton---------------------------M.Schumacher
Verstappen-------------------------Raikkonen
Vettel-------------------------------Montoya
Ricciardo---------------------------Alonso
Leclerc------------------------------Barrichello
Perez-------------------------------Button
Hulkenberg-------------------------R.Schumacher
Bottas------------------------------Fissichella
Raikkonen--------------------------Webber
Sainz-------------------------------Coulthard
Grosjean----------------------------Heidfeld
Norris-------------------------------Trulli
Magnussen-------------------------Frentzen
Gasly-------------------------------Villeneuve
Albon-------------------------------Panis
Kvyat-------------------------------Verstappen
Russell-----------------------------Wilson
Stroll-------------------------------Da Matta
Giovinazzi--------------------------Pizzonia
Kubica------------------------------Firman

The 03 list looks way stronger to me from 6th down to 16th at least.

Going with your list, I would say that today's top five are substantially stronger. I think Schumacher is the only one from the 2003 list who would belong on today's top five (although a slightly later Alonso certainly would as well). However, today's top five have a sizable gap between themselves and the rest of the current grid, so that doesn't show the complete picture.

From sixth to twelfth I see the two as quite comparable. Button was only a tiny bit better than Perez in 2013, when Button was much better than in 2003 and Perez was probably weaker than today. I have no problem seeing Hulk as superior to Ralf. Fisi was probably a bit better than Bottas, but again, comparable. I think he would have been embarrassed alongside a current-spec Hamilton. Raikkonen and Webber I see as being pretty similar drivers, with a slight edge to a 2003-era Webber vs. a current Raikkonen. Sainz I would see as better than Coulthard any day of the week. Grosjean is less consistent than Heidfeld, so arguably weaker. It's too early to compare Norris and Trulli, but right now I'd give Trulli the edge.

The group right below that - from Magnussen to Kvyat - is the only one where I think the 2003 grid might have an advantage. Frentzen I think was certainly better than Magnussen, and Villeneuve quite possibly better than Gasly. Albon is probably too fresh to compare, but I can believe Panis as superior. Jos Verstappen was quite possibly better than Kvyat.

Below that, however, I see it as a slaughter. Russel is a far superior driver to Wilson, and in fact I think you have him much too low on your list. Stroll is probably somewhere around Da Matta, but Giovinazzi and Kubica are certainly better than Pizzonia and Firman. I don't see it being close at the bottom.

In other words, I really have a hard time agreeing with you. I think the current grid is better at about 75% of the positions compared to the 2003 grid, assuming Schumi and Hamilton are roughly equal.

Interested to know why you think Russell is far better than Wilson? Otherwise fair enough. I disagree on some of it but don't think it's unreasonable.

Mostly just that I rate Russell very highly - higher than Norris or Albon, and somewhere in the Ocon/Hulkenberg range. But I do admit that it's very difficult to tell how to rate him in that Williams.


Thing is both Wilson and Russell came in as second tier champions. Two races into their F1 careers, both driving back markers, I think it would be unfair to judge either as much better than the other.

It took Justin Wilson 3 years to win the F3000 title.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:50 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That's laughable to be blunt. The field from 2003-2005 was extremely weak by comparison to what we have today. Outside of Michael and a young Alonso, you didn't have any other top-tier talents. The likes of Raikkonen, Montoya and Ralf Schumacher were among the top drivers at that time and that was Alonso before reaching his peak. By comparison; today; you have Hamilton, Vettel, Leclerc, Verstappen, Ricciardo and 2-3 other young drivers that might be something special some day. Nico Hulkenberg would probably have been the third best driver on the grid in 2003...


I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.

So much wrong here… where to begin.

You speak of Raikkonen and Massa as if they’re whatever drivers, yet you hold a higher opinion of Button??!?!??

The guy who’s sole championship came when driving a car that was initially all-conquering and head and shoulders ahead of everyone else and barely hung on to take home the championship??!?
Raikkonen and Massa is were far more competitive in more seasons than Button so idk how you rate them so low. And by 2003 Button had done absolutely NOTHING to make anyone see anything except being slightly better than those drivers who lost their seats for 2004. From 2004 - 2008 Button did what exactly to show he’d improved any further from 2003??!? I respect his ability, but so much Bull was said about his finessing touch and how he could do things with tires no one else could get the Pirellis exposed that as pure BS. The supposed tire whisperer had more issues than ANYONE else, including rookies and pay drivers!

Ralf Schumacher was also a solid driver, and I’d dare say better than Button. His problem was landing a seat on the right team, but the days when his team got his car just right he was so untouchable it even his brother could touch him, never mind Button. Lol

Now where you really got me in all this is when you said Montoya is inferior to Kimi because that simply isn’t true. Montoya was noticeably better than Alonso before Alonso won his 2 titles and he was upset going into the 2006 season because they’d already signed Alonso for 2007 and Raikkonen was Ron’s Golden boy so it meant Montoya was going to be the odd man out. This cause tension in the team and upset Montoya to the point the relationship was toxic and When Ron Dennis asked him not to return he said the car sucks anyway so I’m outta here.

What no one knew was that Ferrari was ousting Schumacher and Co from the team and di Montezemelo has signed Raikkonen to replace him as he too wanted the Iceman.

If Raikkonen was as not up to scratch as you claim, she were the boasss of the 2 top teams in the sport so keen to sign him. These guys don’t make decisions based on what you see on TV, they have multi million dollar equipment that teletrates performance via providing HARD DATA that breaks down performance to a degree you cannot imagine. But I guess your calibrated eye knows more than two of the greatest and most sophisticated racing outfits in the entirety of the world.

Go figure, Raikkonen is STILL a commodity in the sport so I guess you must be right. 🤦🏽‍♂️

Honestly man I completely disagree with everything you've written. I think the issue is that you make no attempt whatsoever to separate the driver from the car. If you actually want to claim that Montoya was better than Alonso I don't think we are even in the same universe. Montoya certainly had a better car than Alonso but he was NOT a better driver. Likewise Kimi drove some of the best cars during those years but he was exposed the moment he was teamed with drivers who were truly top tier so that he no longer had a car advantage over them.

Honestly your perspective is completely alien to me. As for the Button v Raikkonen thing; who held their own better when teamed with top tier talent? Raikkonen, Massa or Button? Button was respectable both as Hamilton's teammate and as Alonso's. Massa and Raikkonen were demolished when teamed with Alonso, Vettel and Schumacher. That's my reasoning. What's yours? Is it just that Kimi is cool and he's the Ice Man and all that same old tired stuff? Because that has gotten really old at this point.

During the years Montoya was in F1 he was definitely better than Alonso and if you think otherwise you’re delusional. Furthermore you say Raikkonen was flattered by being in superior cars when he was at his best, but in those seasons, outside of Montoya, WHERE were the guys driving the same cars?
And while Alonso is indeed a beast of a driver, in one of his championship seasons he had a nifty little trick system that offered him an advantage over everyone else and barely beat Michael, and in the following year he was lucky that Michael suffered the only engine failure for Ferrari in several seasons to capture that title. Had Michael’s engine not blown Hamilton would still need 3 more titles to match his record instead of just 2.

Raikkonen is a special driver because of his innate ability to figure out problem areas with a car and communicating it to his team and engineers. And historically, when teams addressed those deficiencies, both he and his teammates were able to go faster, even when paired with Alonso.

In Lotus for example, he struggled initially because the front end was off, and when the finally listened to him the car was much improved and he was brilliant. On the other hand, when Button found himself in difficult cars, like his Honda stint, he did just ok and nothing ever improved. His most brilliant drive was his Canada win in the rain, but he and McLaren made all the right calls at the right times and he drove magnificently, just as Barrichello also did in the rain once. Button did respectably well against Hamilton and Alonso, but nothing particularly special in 8 seasons between them.

And Massa is far better than armchair experts believe, so please get off that nonsense. And you cannot ever use Michael as a basis for comparison because he’s other worldly and even the best looked ordinary against him.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Fisichella wasn't even a match for Heikki Kovaleinen when they were teammates; who was less competitive relative to a young Lewis Hamilton than Bottas is today.


But we are talking about Fissichella in 2003.

That's just 4 years earlier. Fisi was a solid midfielder for his day but today's field is stronger IMO.


Fisi was one of the best drivers of bad cars of the last 20 years. He was crushed by not being as good as Alonso. He wasn't the last.

I don't understand all this that was Kimi of 03 that was Fisichella of 03, they were drivers near the top of the pile in 03 that later got found out.


Drivers don't perform at the same level forever. You've got to judge them on how good they were then not how much they declined or how good they became. I'm not claiming Alonso was the best out there up with Schumacher for example.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:56 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
During the years Montoya was in F1 he was definitely better than Alonso and if you think otherwise you’re delusional. Furthermore you say Raikkonen was flattered by being in superior cars when he was at his best, but in those seasons, outside of Montoya, WHERE were the guys driving the same cars?
And while Alonso is indeed a beast of a driver, in one of his championship seasons he had a nifty little trick system that offered him an advantage over everyone else and barely beat Michael, and in the following year he was lucky that Michael suffered the only engine failure for Ferrari in several seasons to capture that title. Had Michael’s engine not blown Hamilton would still need 3 more titles to match his record instead of just 2.

Raikkonen is a special driver because of his innate ability to figure out problem areas with a car and communicating it to his team and engineers. And historically, when teams addressed those deficiencies, both he and his teammates were able to go faster, even when paired with Alonso.

In Lotus for example, he struggled initially because the front end was off, and when the finally listened to him the car was much improved and he was brilliant. On the other hand, when Button found himself in difficult cars, like his Honda stint, he did just ok and nothing ever improved. His most brilliant drive was his Canada win in the rain, but he and McLaren made all the right calls at the right times and he drove magnificently, just as Barrichello also did in the rain once. Button did respectably well against Hamilton and Alonso, but nothing particularly special in 8 seasons between them.

And Massa is far better than armchair experts believe, so please get off that nonsense. And you cannot ever use Michael as a basis for comparison because he’s other worldly and even the best looked ordinary against him.


First bit in bold - this is a little before my time watching F1 but was Montoya really better than Alonso in 2005 and the first half of 2006? Montoya seemed to be nowhere near Raikkonen.

Second bit in bold - in 2005 Alonso scored 133 points, Schumacher 62. You can't say that Alonso barely beat him that year.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:23 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
And while Alonso is indeed a beast of a driver, in one of his championship seasons he had a nifty little trick system that offered him an advantage over everyone else and barely beat Michael, and in the following year he was lucky that Michael suffered the only engine failure for Ferrari in several seasons to capture that title. Had Michael’s engine not blown Hamilton would still need 3 more titles to match his record instead of just 2.
I agree that the TMD (tuned mass damper) was a nifty system, but it wasn't "trick" as you put it, because it wasn't new and it wasn't used by Renault only. As far as I can tell, it was only used during the final 3 races in 2005, and 11 in 2006. This means the other teams fielding it had enough time to find out whether their use of it was worthwhile or not. Ferrari tried it, but the rewards were minimal for them, possibly because of their tyres. Of course Renault built their car specifically with TMD in mind, but that in itself is simply a design choice. So I repeat; there was nothing "trick" about it. And if you really want to compare Alonso directly with Schumacher on that basis, you should remember Schumacher's bespoke Bridgestone tyres up to and including 2006.

As for that single engine failure taking the title away from Schumacher; have you forgotten about the wheel coming off Alonso's car in Hungary? Nothing to do with a trick system, just a pitstop gone wrong. Such is F1 in the spectacle age. As you rightly point out, Schumacher had over the previous years enjoyed reliability most of his competitors could only dream of.

Shall we get back to the current new wave in F1? I'm sure they'll be treated with at least as much bias as that of the early '00s.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:29 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I totally disagree.

I think perhaps we have a few more right at the top now but once you get through the top 6 or so it falls away massively. 2003 had far greater depth. To put Hulkenberg above the likes of 03 spec Kimi or Montoya is bizarre. Why even put him above Barrichello, Ralf Scumacher, Button or Fissichella?

Actually the depth is the biggest weakness to 2003. The guys you named would all be in that top 6-7 for that year. Once you get past them, you start to see drivers like Ralf Firman, Takuma Sato, Justin Wilson and others who would have no prayer of making the grid right now.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Kimi was so great in 2003 anyway. He was no better than he was in 2007-2009 when he and Massa were teammates and he proved to be no better than Felipe. I'll give you Jenson. By 2003, Jenson had matured enough that you started to see his all around ability but Ralf Schumacher and Montoya were inferior to even Kimi and, again, those guys were all in that top handful of drivers of the day.

Like I said before, in my opinion, the overall level of performance in F1 really went through the roof starting in 2006. Guys like Coulthard; who were considered to be among the best of the best just a few years prior; became slowest of the slow.

So much wrong here… where to begin.

You speak of Raikkonen and Massa as if they’re whatever drivers, yet you hold a higher opinion of Button??!?!??

The guy who’s sole championship came when driving a car that was initially all-conquering and head and shoulders ahead of everyone else and barely hung on to take home the championship??!?
Raikkonen and Massa is were far more competitive in more seasons than Button so idk how you rate them so low. And by 2003 Button had done absolutely NOTHING to make anyone see anything except being slightly better than those drivers who lost their seats for 2004. From 2004 - 2008 Button did what exactly to show he’d improved any further from 2003??!? I respect his ability, but so much Bull was said about his finessing touch and how he could do things with tires no one else could get the Pirellis exposed that as pure BS. The supposed tire whisperer had more issues than ANYONE else, including rookies and pay drivers!

Ralf Schumacher was also a solid driver, and I’d dare say better than Button. His problem was landing a seat on the right team, but the days when his team got his car just right he was so untouchable it even his brother could touch him, never mind Button. Lol

Now where you really got me in all this is when you said Montoya is inferior to Kimi because that simply isn’t true. Montoya was noticeably better than Alonso before Alonso won his 2 titles and he was upset going into the 2006 season because they’d already signed Alonso for 2007 and Raikkonen was Ron’s Golden boy so it meant Montoya was going to be the odd man out. This cause tension in the team and upset Montoya to the point the relationship was toxic and When Ron Dennis asked him not to return he said the car sucks anyway so I’m outta here.

What no one knew was that Ferrari was ousting Schumacher and Co from the team and di Montezemelo has signed Raikkonen to replace him as he too wanted the Iceman.

If Raikkonen was as not up to scratch as you claim, she were the boasss of the 2 top teams in the sport so keen to sign him. These guys don’t make decisions based on what you see on TV, they have multi million dollar equipment that teletrates performance via providing HARD DATA that breaks down performance to a degree you cannot imagine. But I guess your calibrated eye knows more than two of the greatest and most sophisticated racing outfits in the entirety of the world.

Go figure, Raikkonen is STILL a commodity in the sport so I guess you must be right. 🤦🏽‍♂️

Honestly man I completely disagree with everything you've written. I think the issue is that you make no attempt whatsoever to separate the driver from the car. If you actually want to claim that Montoya was better than Alonso I don't think we are even in the same universe. Montoya certainly had a better car than Alonso but he was NOT a better driver. Likewise Kimi drove some of the best cars during those years but he was exposed the moment he was teamed with drivers who were truly top tier so that he no longer had a car advantage over them.

Honestly your perspective is completely alien to me. As for the Button v Raikkonen thing; who held their own better when teamed with top tier talent? Raikkonen, Massa or Button? Button was respectable both as Hamilton's teammate and as Alonso's. Massa and Raikkonen were demolished when teamed with Alonso, Vettel and Schumacher. That's my reasoning. What's yours? Is it just that Kimi is cool and he's the Ice Man and all that same old tired stuff? Because that has gotten really old at this point.

During the years Montoya was in F1 he was definitely better than Alonso and if you think otherwise you’re delusional. Furthermore you say Raikkonen was flattered by being in superior cars when he was at his best, but in those seasons, outside of Montoya, WHERE were the guys driving the same cars?
And while Alonso is indeed a beast of a driver, in one of his championship seasons he had a nifty little trick system that offered him an advantage over everyone else and barely beat Michael, and in the following year he was lucky that Michael suffered the only engine failure for Ferrari in several seasons to capture that title. Had Michael’s engine not blown Hamilton would still need 3 more titles to match his record instead of just 2.

Raikkonen is a special driver because of his innate ability to figure out problem areas with a car and communicating it to his team and engineers. And historically, when teams addressed those deficiencies, both he and his teammates were able to go faster, even when paired with Alonso.

In Lotus for example, he struggled initially because the front end was off, and when the finally listened to him the car was much improved and he was brilliant. On the other hand, when Button found himself in difficult cars, like his Honda stint, he did just ok and nothing ever improved. His most brilliant drive was his Canada win in the rain, but he and McLaren made all the right calls at the right times and he drove magnificently, just as Barrichello also did in the rain once. Button did respectably well against Hamilton and Alonso, but nothing particularly special in 8 seasons between them.

And Massa is far better than armchair experts believe, so please get off that nonsense. And you cannot ever use Michael as a basis for comparison because he’s other worldly and even the best looked ordinary against him.

In 2012 Grosjean qualified the Lotus in 3rd place in it's first outing over a second quicker than Kimi, Grosjean had not driven in F1 for 2 years.

Kimi was the problem not the car, the notion that Kimi improved the car itself doesn't add up.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
But we are talking about Fissichella in 2003.

That's just 4 years earlier. Fisi was a solid midfielder for his day but today's field is stronger IMO.


Fisi was one of the best drivers of bad cars of the last 20 years. He was crushed by not being as good as Alonso. He wasn't the last.

I don't understand all this that was Kimi of 03 that was Fisichella of 03, they were drivers near the top of the pile in 03 that later got found out.


Drivers don't perform at the same level forever. You've got to judge them on how good they were then not how much they declined or how good they became. I'm not claiming Alonso was the best out there up with Schumacher for example.

That's quite a convenient way of making anything fit that you want to though?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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