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 Post subject: Ferrari - A secret brew
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Has Shell found some secret brew that gives Ferrari 40 bhp and is that the reason why they for so strong in Bahrain straits.

https://f1i.com/news/336129-a-secret-brew-at-ferrari-fuel-smells-like-grapefruit-juice-says-horner.html


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Very impressive if true. This is what you have to love about F1. There are so many fronts on which scientists and engineers are pushing the boundaries.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:53 pm 
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So many clever people in F1 and no suggestion that they may have actually built a good chasis with low drag. All through preseason testing Ferrari was said to be best in corners, if they can accelerate earlier and have low drag would that not look good on GPS


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.

Don't know but this is an interesting article
https://drivetribe.com/p/what-happens-i ... bPzt9hxoEw
Seems mostly same spec of pump fuel with flexibility to optimize in a narrower operating window given its designed for a specific PU rather than a whole range of engine manufacturers and climate


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:02 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

The oft-quoted rule on fuel is that it is '99% identical' to pump fuel. The remaining 1%, however, apparently makes a lot of difference...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:24 pm 
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Huw wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.


Thanks for that the link is enclosed:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_technical_regulations_-_2018-10-12.pdf

Whilst not being a fuel specialist I do have a PhD in Organic Chemistry, the regs are quite specific about the composition of the fuel which basically has to be recognisable as petrol. I can see how you might be able to tweak the performance to get a few BHP but to get 40 BHP from simply fuel is highly unlikely in my view.

The article also says much the same thing. If Ferrari are suggesting this is the source of their extra straight line speed then its a ruse.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:10 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Huw wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.

Thanks for that the link is enclosed:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_technical_regulations_-_2018-10-12.pdf

Whilst not being a fuel specialist I do have a PhD in Organic Chemistry, the regs are quite specific about the composition of the fuel which basically has to be recognisable as petrol. I can see how you might be able to tweak the performance to get a few BHP but to get 40 BHP from simply fuel is highly unlikely in my view.

The article also says much the same thing. If Ferrari are suggesting this is the source of their extra straight line speed then its a ruse.

I remember the last time everyone was talking about a huge power boost coming from the fuel, it was actually coming from the oil-burning loophole. I wonder if there might be something like that going on again? Shell and Ferrari are the people who found it last time, after all.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:56 pm 
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Huw wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.


:lol:

How about liquid vegiemite, my friend?
;)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:10 am 
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I think they’re burying the lede here. The headline should be “Why is Horner sniffing gas, and how did he get ahold of Ferrari’s?”

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:32 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Huw wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.


Thanks for that the link is enclosed:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_technical_regulations_-_2018-10-12.pdf

Whilst not being a fuel specialist I do have a PhD in Organic Chemistry, the regs are quite specific about the composition of the fuel which basically has to be recognisable as petrol. I can see how you might be able to tweak the performance to get a few BHP but to get 40 BHP from simply fuel is highly unlikely in my view.

The article also says much the same thing. If Ferrari are suggesting this is the source of their extra straight line speed then its a ruse.


To be fair, my own car has been rolling road tested at 30bhp of difference between certain types of fuel. Admittedly that is tuned engine with twin, twin scrolls running over 500bhp. However that's 97 and 99 RON

But I agree, all of these companies will be making fuel within a fraction of a percent of each other, although the skill is matching the engine and fuel - again works teams will be able to do this easily and be at a fraction of a percent of each other.

I'd be shocked if fuel was even giving a 10bhp advantage to any team.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Huw wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.


Thanks for that the link is enclosed:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_technical_regulations_-_2018-10-12.pdf

Whilst not being a fuel specialist I do have a PhD in Organic Chemistry, the regs are quite specific about the composition of the fuel which basically has to be recognisable as petrol. I can see how you might be able to tweak the performance to get a few BHP but to get 40 BHP from simply fuel is highly unlikely in my view.

The article also says much the same thing. If Ferrari are suggesting this is the source of their extra straight line speed then its a ruse.


To be fair, my own car has been rolling road tested at 30bhp of difference between certain types of fuel. Admittedly that is tuned engine with twin, twin scrolls running over 500bhp. However that's 97 and 99 RON

But I agree, all of these companies will be making fuel within a fraction of a percent of each other, although the skill is matching the engine and fuel - again works teams will be able to do this easily and be at a fraction of a percent of each other.

I'd be shocked if fuel was even giving a 10bhp advantage to any team.

I'm not a chemist of any kind so amateur hour here but if you can notice gains of 30bhp with your homemade tuned engine just by changing the fuel, then why could that not be the same (or even greater) for an ultra-highly developed F1 PU?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Quote:
The oft-quoted rule on fuel is that it is '99% identical' to pump fuel. The remaining 1%, however, apparently makes a lot of difference...


I thought I read once that our DNA was 99% the same as monkeys, so depending on your viewpoint, that 1% can make a big difference or none at all...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:22 pm 
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Longnose wrote:
Quote:
The oft-quoted rule on fuel is that it is '99% identical' to pump fuel. The remaining 1%, however, apparently makes a lot of difference...


I thought I read once that our DNA was 99% the same as monkeys, so depending on your viewpoint, that 1% can make a big difference or none at all...


I believe that monkeys have often complained about the comparison


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1167
Location: UK
Zoue wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Huw wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone enlighten me as to what regs if any relate to fuel, there must be some surely?

While we are there are the any specifications on radiator size, if the fuel has a higher calorific value/heat value giving more power then there must be a related increase in heat generated.


Go to fia.com and search for F1 > Technical Regulations. You will find the answer to your question in Article 19, Fuel. My reading of the regulations suggests that grapefruit juice is not currently on the list of prohibited chemicals.


Thanks for that the link is enclosed:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2019_technical_regulations_-_2018-10-12.pdf

Whilst not being a fuel specialist I do have a PhD in Organic Chemistry, the regs are quite specific about the composition of the fuel which basically has to be recognisable as petrol. I can see how you might be able to tweak the performance to get a few BHP but to get 40 BHP from simply fuel is highly unlikely in my view.

The article also says much the same thing. If Ferrari are suggesting this is the source of their extra straight line speed then its a ruse.


To be fair, my own car has been rolling road tested at 30bhp of difference between certain types of fuel. Admittedly that is tuned engine with twin, twin scrolls running over 500bhp. However that's 97 and 99 RON

But I agree, all of these companies will be making fuel within a fraction of a percent of each other, although the skill is matching the engine and fuel - again works teams will be able to do this easily and be at a fraction of a percent of each other.

I'd be shocked if fuel was even giving a 10bhp advantage to any team.

I'm not a chemist of any kind so amateur hour here but if you can notice gains of 30bhp with your homemade tuned engine just by changing the fuel, then why could that not be the same (or even greater) for an ultra-highly developed F1 PU?


True but that assumes 2 things:

1) That the other fuel suppliers are not increasing their power output at all over and above standard petrol.
2) That Badgeronimous's car and fuel is not subject to FIA regs.

40bhp is about at a 4% increase given the power output of the Ferrari rumoured to be 1000bhp


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:23 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not a chemist of any kind so amateur hour here but if you can notice gains of 30bhp with your homemade tuned engine just by changing the fuel, then why could that not be the same (or even greater) for an ultra-highly developed F1 PU?


True but that assumes 2 things:

1) That the other fuel suppliers are not increasing their power output at all over and above standard petrol.
2) That Badgeronimous's car and fuel is not subject to FIA regs.

40bhp is about at a 4% increase given the power output of the Ferrari rumoured to be 1000bhp

I think the main difference here would be that Badgeronimous is referring to switching between grades of fuel, whereas that level of difference would be illegal in the FIA regulations. Switching between two different brands of 99 RON fuel would be a closer analogy.

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