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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's a miscommunication that had someone saying that Alonso was a tier above Hamilton and the need to question that.

No it's you misinterpreting what was said and feeling the irresistible urge to err on the side of caution when determining whether Hamilton has been slighted. Someone put Alonso above Hamilton, big deal. That's not a put down of Hamilton, despite your best efforts to interpret it as that. It's simply an opinion that Alonso was the best. Given "best" is so highly subjective anyway and that no-one on here can even agree what that exactly means, one wonders why you don't allow others to have their own opinion on this?

No it's not the thread was about tiers and not rankings.

Well it was about the pecking order, strictly speaking. I don't recall seeing a rule that said it had to specifically be about tiers. But even if it was, I still don't see why you're getting so bent out of shape about someone having an opinion that Alonso was the best of all. Putting him in his own tier is simply a way of highlighting that and doesn't mean that the poster necessarily thinks he's in a completely different league. There's no definition that says Tier 1 has to be x percent better than Tier 2, for example. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here and it has to be said that you're almost looking to take offence even where none is intended. Why is it so personal to you that Hamilton must take top spot in everybody's lists?

It was set out to be about tiers by the person that made the thread, it's not my fault that the poster mistook what the thread was about and put Alonso a tier above Hamilton rather than simply saying he though Alonso was better than Hamilton, it's also unfortunate that he chose to back up a post who's intent seemed to be just to try and garner a response from Hamilton fans.

It is your fault that you keep harping on about it, though, despite the multiple attempts by the OP to correct you. You're basically arguing a position based on your misunderstanding of what they originally intended and despite this being pointed out several times you still keep flogging the horse


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:51 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Way to shift goal posts there. Having had some luck doesn't mean he was lucky to beat Vettel. You are getting confused. But yes, he has had some luck, like Baku, rain in Singapore or the fact that Ferrari got it wrong in a few races.

This does not detract from the fact that he also suffered DNF's due to mechanical reasons when Vettel didn't, nor that he was lucky to win the WDC.

In short, no one offended your favourite driver, ok?

When you say someone was lucky than that means underserving.

That's not really true. It just means that factors outside their control helped influence things

Exactly it means Hamilton didn't win through his own endeavours but things were gifted to him.

I'd argue the reverse, if you use Germany 2018 (and, I'd guess, Hungary qualifying) as an example. The rain allowed Hamilton to make up more ground than he might otherwise have in the dry. Something outside of his own influence but which allowed him to maximise his skills.
Thank you. That's exactly what I've been saying


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Thank you. That's exactly what I've been saying



Yeah but we all know that. Maybe Pokerman doesn't. I guess there are a lot of people to thank.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
There's a chance that a few race weekends will be significantly affected by rain every season. It happening is not lucky in and of itself. Now, if we look at the specific timing of this happening given where the advantage appeared to be between Ferrari and Mercedes last year, it seems reasonable to say that Hamilton struck it rich, which I'm pretty sure he himself would agree with, given the beaming smile he has on his face when it rains and the opportunity he feels it can open up for him. But then if Hamilton was a bad wet weather driver it could have been bad luck instead, so Hamilton makes his own luck by being better than the rest and having that ace in the hand. Still, if Mercedes have a clear advantage in the dry, wet weather has high potential to add variables to the race equation which the teams are less able to control, in which case Hamilton would probably hope for the more stable and predictable dry conditions to carry the advantage home.

There was a time when great wet weather drivers were feted in particular Senna, now when it rains that particular driver is just deemed to be lucky?

I have to be honest, it's getting a little irritating how you keep deliberately and willfully twisting what was said to argue against a position that was never taken. I've never used the T word before but I'm getting sorely tempted of late as it seems you are deliberately stirring up controversy and manufacturing confrontation out of thin air. I don't believe it's possible for you to miss the myriad times when I've explained that the luck comment was not simply about when it rains, so the assumption has to be that you are going out of your way to stoke things up and generate an argument. I think it's sad that you would stoop to such lengths, personally

No it wouldn't be about highlighting Hamilton being lucky once again, wanting to rehash the last 2 seasons just because he happened to get lucky in Bahrain, what was the specific need for this has as been pointed out this is something you could label other drivers with in the past but for some reason we don't seem to do it?

As I've said before me personally I apportion someone being lucky as someone being undeserving.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:57 pm 
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Posts: 6027
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I never thought of you as disliking Hamilton at all and I don't agree with your assessment. No one says every word about Hamilton has to be glowing praise but when you make assertions that are poorly supported, people in a forum will challenge them. There are a few people on the forum who seem to feel like Alonso's greatness cannot be questioned and that he must be held above all other contemporary drivers regardless of what actually happens. When you put forth that kind of view in a forum, I think you should expect that there will be debate that comes from it. If you don't like the debate then you should probably not present those views in a forum. You should especially avoid presenting them in a thread entitled "Best F1 driver ever?". In reading back through the debate, I don't see anything that's really out of bounds so I'm not entirely sure what you're complaining about.

As for the bit about luck; I don't see it that way. There will be times when things go against you and there will be times where opportunities present themselves to you. For the most part you usually make your own luck in racing (and life). For you to say that Hamilton is lucky that it started to rain because he is a better wet weather driver is something that I find incomprehensible. His own ability is not something that should ever be described as "luck". He is racing in the same conditions as everyone else. Surely being able to master those conditions should be chalked up to skill and most definitely not "luck". An engine failure is unlucky for the driver who experiences it but that doesn't mean the drivers who benefit are just lucky. They had to be there to benefit from the failure. Likewise if you pressure your opponent into a mistake, that's not you getting "lucky". That's you performing better than your opponent and applying pressure to him that he can't handle.

Following your train of thought, everything is luck. It's lucky you're an extremely fast driver in a really good car and that you set pole position and won the race. It's lucky you are able to do that consistently enough to win championships. Why even discuss any of this if it's all just a coin toss?

Because that's both daft reasoning and a complete strawman. Luck was being mentioned in very specific circumstances and, as has already been pointed out, even Hamilton acknowledged he had a lucky win in Bahrain. Why aren't you criticizing him for saying that?

You clearly don't feel that Hamilton was unlucky in 2016 when his PU failed when leading the race in Malaysia, or when a hairline split in a rubber tube caused him to lose a cylinder in Australia 2014. But I think most would disagree with you that luck plays no part whenever something happens that is completely beyond the driver's control. And that's both negative and positive

Speaking of "daft"; in the post that you quoted, I made the following statement; "An engine failure is unlucky for the driver who experiences it but that doesn't mean the drivers who benefit are just lucky". You then wrote this in your post; "You clearly don't feel that Hamilton was unlucky in 2016 when his PU failed when leading the race in Malaysia". So who's creating strawmen Zoue? If you cannot generate a cogent argument, simply keep quiet. Don't chime in and intentionally misrepresent other people's views.
I'm not misrepresenting, I'm calling it out for the clear double standard. If the one who bears misfortune from an incident is unlucky, then it stands to reason that the one who benefitted from it is lucky. You can't only believe in bad luck but never in good.

It's not a double standard. Allow me to clarify. If you experience a mechanical failure that you had absolutely no control over; that's obviously bad luck for you but having other drivers suffer DNFs is not lucky because there are drivers who suffer DNFs pretty much every single race. Being in position to capitalize on those DNFs is a matter of skill and execution; not luck. Luck would be benefiting from the timing of a safety car or some other such element where your own ability has absolutely nothing to do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
People talking about meteorological statistics and the chances of rain are missing the point. Hamilton's not lucky whenever it rains, as some on here are trying to make out is being said. The luck part is e.g. it raining whenever it looks like Ferrari have a significant advantage in the dry, enabling Hamilton to put his apparently god-like wet weather skills to use. If it rains when Mercedes already have an advantage, so what? Likewise, if it rains when the cars are equal or else extremely close, so what? But if it rains when Ferrari look to be locking out the front row in the dry, then rain helping to take away some of that advantage is fortunate. It's not in any way a dig at Hamilton to say that. Likewise, if Leclerc's car fails when it looks like he's running away with the win, then that's also fortunate for Hamilton in 2nd place. It in no way detracts from the effort he's already put in to reach 2nd, just a comment on his fortune that something outside his control intervened which helped him out even further. The fact that I'm having to go to such lengths to explain this and underline how it's not anything to do with his driving skills is frankly a little sad. I don't get this with any other driver here but whenever it's Hamilton in the discussion we have to walk around on eggshells.

It's about Hamilton because you specifically make it about Hamilton, Hamilton being especially good in the wet is then luck for him when ever it rains, the best car should win the race and it's just luck when conditions allow the driver himself to make the difference, it's kind of strange to hear this when so often F1 can be criticised about being more about the car than the driver, but then again not unsurprising.

I think you'll find you're the one who brought it up in this particular sub-thread.

Perhaps but in respect to Hamilton you started all this being lucky in the rain centering it around Hamilton, maybe in the past if you ever said anyone else was lucky in the rain, I never heard you say that Vettel's Monza win in 2008 as being lucky, it has been referenced many times on here.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Way to shift goal posts there. Having had some luck doesn't mean he was lucky to beat Vettel. You are getting confused. But yes, he has had some luck, like Baku, rain in Singapore or the fact that Ferrari got it wrong in a few races.

This does not detract from the fact that he also suffered DNF's due to mechanical reasons when Vettel didn't, nor that he was lucky to win the WDC.

In short, no one offended your favourite driver, ok?

When you say someone was lucky than that means underserving.

That's not really true. It just means that factors outside their control helped influence things

Exactly it means Hamilton didn't win through his own endeavours but things were gifted to him.

sometimes they are gifted, to a certain extent at least. That's just life. Leclerc's PU going bang in Bahrain was a gift to Hamilton. And so what if it was? That doesn't make Hamilton a bad driver, just means that on that occasion fortune helped him. Why should that be controversial? And why should it be so painful for you to acknowledge that luck may have played a part, when Hamilton himself said that it did? Why is it easier for him to acknowledge that than for you to on his behalf?

Bahrain was lucky but then you used that to try and blanket the last 2 seasons.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:07 pm 
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Posts: 24693
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
There's a chance that a few race weekends will be significantly affected by rain every season. It happening is not lucky in and of itself. Now, if we look at the specific timing of this happening given where the advantage appeared to be between Ferrari and Mercedes last year, it seems reasonable to say that Hamilton struck it rich, which I'm pretty sure he himself would agree with, given the beaming smile he has on his face when it rains and the opportunity he feels it can open up for him. But then if Hamilton was a bad wet weather driver it could have been bad luck instead, so Hamilton makes his own luck by being better than the rest and having that ace in the hand. Still, if Mercedes have a clear advantage in the dry, wet weather has high potential to add variables to the race equation which the teams are less able to control, in which case Hamilton would probably hope for the more stable and predictable dry conditions to carry the advantage home.

There was a time when great wet weather drivers were feted in particular Senna, now when it rains that particular driver is just deemed to be lucky?

I have to be honest, it's getting a little irritating how you keep deliberately and willfully twisting what was said to argue against a position that was never taken. I've never used the T word before but I'm getting sorely tempted of late as it seems you are deliberately stirring up controversy and manufacturing confrontation out of thin air. I don't believe it's possible for you to miss the myriad times when I've explained that the luck comment was not simply about when it rains, so the assumption has to be that you are going out of your way to stoke things up and generate an argument. I think it's sad that you would stoop to such lengths, personally

No it wouldn't be about highlighting Hamilton being lucky once again, wanting to rehash the last 2 seasons just because he happened to get lucky in Bahrain, what was the specific need for this has as been pointed out this is something you could label other drivers with in the past but for some reason we don't seem to do it?

As I've said before me personally I apportion someone being lucky as someone being undeserving.

As you are well aware it's about your constant attempts to conflate Hamilton being lucky on a few occasions including a couple where it happened to rain with him being lucky every time it rains. That position has not been taken by anybody, AFAIAA, but you insist on repeating it ad nauseam.

I made the original luck comment immediately after the Bahrain race and when making it took pains to point out that he'd put himself in a position to benefit from that luck by his driving, so only the most blinkered could interpret that as a dig against him. At the time you took umbrage (surprise) and it was repeatedly, and I mean repeatedly, pointed out to you that it only covered very specific circumstances. And yet you reference it again and rehash the same argument in this conversation, so please don't try and pretend it was me trying to highlight him being lucky again because that's all you. And once again here over the last few pages I've lost count of the number of times I've had to point out again and again that it's not to do with Hamilton being lucky every time it rains but with the times it has rained when Ferrari have had a clear advantage this last year or so, so very specific circumstances. And still you make sarcastic comments about Hamilton being lucky every time it rains. I just do not believe it's possible that you could have missed the number of times I've corrected you, nor could you miss the number of times mikeyg123 had to correct you on the tier nonsense, so the only possible conclusion to be reached is that you are deliberately trying to provoke an argument and the question on that has to be: why?


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When you say someone was lucky than that means underserving.

That's not really true. It just means that factors outside their control helped influence things

Exactly it means Hamilton didn't win through his own endeavours but things were gifted to him.

sometimes they are gifted, to a certain extent at least. That's just life. Leclerc's PU going bang in Bahrain was a gift to Hamilton. And so what if it was? That doesn't make Hamilton a bad driver, just means that on that occasion fortune helped him. Why should that be controversial? And why should it be so painful for you to acknowledge that luck may have played a part, when Hamilton himself said that it did? Why is it easier for him to acknowledge that than for you to on his behalf?

Bahrain was lucky but then you used that to try and blanket the last 2 seasons.

I didn't blanket, for the nth time. Is there another language you would find it easier to understand because clearly you're having trouble with English?


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
People talking about meteorological statistics and the chances of rain are missing the point. Hamilton's not lucky whenever it rains, as some on here are trying to make out is being said. The luck part is e.g. it raining whenever it looks like Ferrari have a significant advantage in the dry, enabling Hamilton to put his apparently god-like wet weather skills to use. If it rains when Mercedes already have an advantage, so what? Likewise, if it rains when the cars are equal or else extremely close, so what? But if it rains when Ferrari look to be locking out the front row in the dry, then rain helping to take away some of that advantage is fortunate. It's not in any way a dig at Hamilton to say that. Likewise, if Leclerc's car fails when it looks like he's running away with the win, then that's also fortunate for Hamilton in 2nd place. It in no way detracts from the effort he's already put in to reach 2nd, just a comment on his fortune that something outside his control intervened which helped him out even further. The fact that I'm having to go to such lengths to explain this and underline how it's not anything to do with his driving skills is frankly a little sad. I don't get this with any other driver here but whenever it's Hamilton in the discussion we have to walk around on eggshells.

It's about Hamilton because you specifically make it about Hamilton, Hamilton being especially good in the wet is then luck for him when ever it rains, the best car should win the race and it's just luck when conditions allow the driver himself to make the difference, it's kind of strange to hear this when so often F1 can be criticised about being more about the car than the driver, but then again not unsurprising.

I think you'll find you're the one who brought it up in this particular sub-thread.

Perhaps but in respect to Hamilton you started all this being lucky in the rain centering it around Hamilton, maybe in the past if you ever said anyone else was lucky in the rain, I never heard you say that Vettel's Monza win in 2008 as being lucky, it has been referenced many times on here.

Because I wasn't making a comparison to every time a driver has been lucky or unlucky. I was referencing how lately Hamilton appears to have been riding a wave of good fortune whenever things looked bleak. Cue you misinterpreting that yet again...


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:13 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Way to shift goal posts there. Having had some luck doesn't mean he was lucky to beat Vettel. You are getting confused. But yes, he has had some luck, like Baku, rain in Singapore or the fact that Ferrari got it wrong in a few races.

This does not detract from the fact that he also suffered DNF's due to mechanical reasons when Vettel didn't, nor that he was lucky to win the WDC.

In short, no one offended your favourite driver, ok?

When you say someone was lucky than that means underserving.

That's not really true. It just means that factors outside their control helped influence things

Exactly it means Hamilton didn't win through his own endeavours but things were gifted to him.

I'd argue the reverse, if you use Germany 2018 (and, I'd guess, Hungary qualifying) as an example. The rain allowed Hamilton to make up more ground than he might otherwise have in the dry. Something outside of his own influence but which allowed him to maximise his skills.

Hamilton is lucky because his driving skills are more complete, that seems quite ironic in a thread labeled best F1 driver ever.

Senna would not have won his first world title had in not rained late on in Japan, there seems a need to emphasis this now?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Hamilton was better than Vettel last year. There, is that unambiguous enough for you?

Back to last weekend: do you think Hamilton was fortunate that Leclerc had an engine issue? A simple yes or no will do

Hamilton was lucky to win in Bahrain, the problem was when this got extended to the last 2 years.

Why is it a problem to acknowledge that there were occasions where luck was involved? Or are you confusing luck on specific occasions with a blanket lucky title? Because the latter is most emphatically not what was said (a point which I reinforced above anyway)

If an opponent beats you and you say he was lucky that's not acknowledging a deserved winner, you clearly said it to blanket the last 2 seasons otherwise like has been pointed out you would not overlooked individual races were Hamilton was unlucky.

I made it clear that the luck referred to was only in relation to those occasions when Ferrari had the clear quickest car, not that Hamilton was lucky every single race, a point which no doubt you will completely ignore yet again in favour of creating your own strawman

I remember the posts meandering towards how lucky Hamilton had been these past few seasons.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30252
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No it's you misinterpreting what was said and feeling the irresistible urge to err on the side of caution when determining whether Hamilton has been slighted. Someone put Alonso above Hamilton, big deal. That's not a put down of Hamilton, despite your best efforts to interpret it as that. It's simply an opinion that Alonso was the best. Given "best" is so highly subjective anyway and that no-one on here can even agree what that exactly means, one wonders why you don't allow others to have their own opinion on this?

No it's not the thread was about tiers and not rankings.

Well it was about the pecking order, strictly speaking. I don't recall seeing a rule that said it had to specifically be about tiers. But even if it was, I still don't see why you're getting so bent out of shape about someone having an opinion that Alonso was the best of all. Putting him in his own tier is simply a way of highlighting that and doesn't mean that the poster necessarily thinks he's in a completely different league. There's no definition that says Tier 1 has to be x percent better than Tier 2, for example. You're making a mountain out of a molehill here and it has to be said that you're almost looking to take offence even where none is intended. Why is it so personal to you that Hamilton must take top spot in everybody's lists?

It was set out to be about tiers by the person that made the thread, it's not my fault that the poster mistook what the thread was about and put Alonso a tier above Hamilton rather than simply saying he though Alonso was better than Hamilton, it's also unfortunate that he chose to back up a post who's intent seemed to be just to try and garner a response from Hamilton fans.

It is your fault that you keep harping on about it, though, despite the multiple attempts by the OP to correct you. You're basically arguing a position based on your misunderstanding of what they originally intended and despite this being pointed out several times you still keep flogging the horse

He made one post which I acknowledged, it's you who are actually dragging it out and bringing it back up.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 32nd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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