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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:33 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Onboard video from Kvyat's car that transpired McLaren mess!



To me that's a very definition of a racing incident. First lap, hard battle with multiple cars, one slight error (very tiny oversteer) in the midst of things. In here the penalty was 100% based on the result of what happened, not the actual happening/mistake itself.

Meanwhile Verstappen can block and weave in the straights all he wants, causing damage and ruining races even in the closing stages and gets away with nothing. (mind you he seems to have finally grown up even a little bit for this season, maybe after his 5th season he's finally learning).


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:38 am 
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Finally a good start for Hamilton and that is what won him the race. Him and Bottas looked comfortable didn't look troubled.

As others have said, the team order from Ferrari made sense but the strategy for Leclerc after was just bizarre. The first pit stop was in neither here nor there.

Verstappen did a good job again in the race. Ricciardo had a very quiet and solid race which will be good for him, I think we'll see him start to get on top of Hulkenberg from now on.

Driver of the day is definitely Albon. I really like him both in and out of the car.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:49 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
1000th race has fully shown why F1 is not anymore what it was. It has several unofficial categories, it is hard t overtake except on the 1km straight, starts are deciding the outcome. And that's just the top of the hill.

Ferrari obviously has a car problem, it looks so unsettled. Also, since Vettel pulled away from Leclerc, the decision of the team was justified. However, they can kiss the world title goodbye.
Merc looks like glued on the tarmac, not a single wobble. Masters.
Hat's down to Albon, some persistent race and first point after starting from the pit. But, it just shows how to important pit strategy has become.


Rose tinted glasses,there were probably more overtakes for podium positions in the last race than the entire 2006,2007 and 2008 seasons combined.

All of the bolded part has been true for about 15 years, baring a few early DRS seasons.

I am so old, that by 2006 I already got a bit bored by F1. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:13 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It ended up being an easy day for Lewis. Rocket start and then he was really never troubled at all. Mercedes clearly had the stronger package on the weekend and I think they just have their act together much more than Ferrari. Bottas is performing at a level where any thought of replacing him with Ocon will be chucked out the window. Why replace him? He's perfect for them.

Ferrari are starting to look like a mess again. Hindsight is 20/20 but them moving Leclerc out of Vettel's way and then sitting on their hands while Red Bull tried the undercut was embarrassing. Honestly, how did they not anticipate that and pit Leclerc first once it became obvious that Vettel was no faster than him? They seemed to alternate between indecision and poor decision throughout the course of the race. Charles should be livid IMO. That's two races out of three where they have simply handed Vettel an advantage over him. In the other race; he blew by Vettel and was on for a win for most fo the gp. Ferrari need to just back off and let them race at this point. They are not capable of managing this situation with team orders and they are bound to make even more of a mess of things. Let the kid race.

Good quiet day from Daniel. He needed a day like today. Also Kimi has my vote for best of the rest so far. He has been quick and consistent in that midfield scrap. Alex Albon is the second best Red Bull driver IMO. I'd look for him to replace Gasly at Red Bull in 2020 if things continue like this. he makes some mistakes but he's quick and racy. I think his potential in F1 is actually fairly high.

When Vettel pitted in response to Max he almost lost the place and had to fight hard to keep it. If Leclerc had pitted first he would have lost the place and then so would Vettel the lap after. That strategy makes no sense.

Ultimately, Vettel was faster than Leclerc this weekend, which effectively justifies their decision. Having said that, keeping Leclerc out as a moving chicane to try and block Bottas after that did compromise his race vs Verstappen and that I think Leclerc could feel aggrieved at. He lost a possible 4th place, but there again could have mitigated that a little by chasing fastest lao when he had so much fresher tyres. I think both team and driver need to reflect tbh

By "first" I meant before Red Bull. So long as they were in a position of reacting they were always going to end up losing a position. Having swapped them on track and then seen that Vettel wasn't going any faster than Charles; they should have given Charles pit stop preference and looked to pit him FIRST; not as a reaction from someone else trying the undercut. Considering the fact that it was a two-stopper with the hard tires for the second stint; there was no reason to try to draw out the stint any further.

Fair enough. I thought Max stopped pretty early to try and force an undercut but happy to be wrong on that.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It ended up being an easy day for Lewis. Rocket start and then he was really never troubled at all. Mercedes clearly had the stronger package on the weekend and I think they just have their act together much more than Ferrari. Bottas is performing at a level where any thought of replacing him with Ocon will be chucked out the window. Why replace him? He's perfect for them.

Ferrari are starting to look like a mess again. Hindsight is 20/20 but them moving Leclerc out of Vettel's way and then sitting on their hands while Red Bull tried the undercut was embarrassing. Honestly, how did they not anticipate that and pit Leclerc first once it became obvious that Vettel was no faster than him? They seemed to alternate between indecision and poor decision throughout the course of the race. Charles should be livid IMO. That's two races out of three where they have simply handed Vettel an advantage over him. In the other race; he blew by Vettel and was on for a win for most fo the gp. Ferrari need to just back off and let them race at this point. They are not capable of managing this situation with team orders and they are bound to make even more of a mess of things. Let the kid race.

Good quiet day from Daniel. He needed a day like today. Also Kimi has my vote for best of the rest so far. He has been quick and consistent in that midfield scrap. Alex Albon is the second best Red Bull driver IMO. I'd look for him to replace Gasly at Red Bull in 2020 if things continue like this. he makes some mistakes but he's quick and racy. I think his potential in F1 is actually fairly high.

When Vettel pitted in response to Max he almost lost the place and had to fight hard to keep it. If Leclerc had pitted first he would have lost the place and then so would Vettel the lap after. That strategy makes no sense.

Ultimately, Vettel was faster than Leclerc this weekend, which effectively justifies their decision. Having said that, keeping Leclerc out as a moving chicane to try and block Bottas after that did compromise his race vs Verstappen and that I think Leclerc could feel aggrieved at. He lost a possible 4th place, but there again could have mitigated that a little by chasing fastest lao when he had so much fresher tyres. I think both team and driver need to reflect tbh

By "first" I meant before Red Bull. So long as they were in a position of reacting they were always going to end up losing a position. Having swapped them on track and then seen that Vettel wasn't going any faster than Charles; they should have given Charles pit stop preference and looked to pit him FIRST; not as a reaction from someone else trying the undercut. Considering the fact that it was a two-stopper with the hard tires for the second stint; there was no reason to try to draw out the stint any further.

Fair enough. I thought Max stopped pretty early to try and force an undercut but happy to be wrong on that.


Yes, Red Bull pitted earlier than Ferrari thought they could by deliberately pitting Max into traffic, (which was fine at this circuit as it's easy to make short work of slower cars on worse tyres so the time loss for traffic is small).

I presume that Ferrari felt Red Bull would try to wait an extra couple of laps to be clear of the traffic before trying the undercut, by which point Ferrari would likely have pitted one of their cars as they would have been clear of that traffic slightly before Max would be.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:22 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Nice to see a replay of kvyat effectively getting a penalty for getting hit in the rear of his car


Up there with the worst penalties I've seen. Especially given it was a drive through too, so 20 second(ish).

Not exactly sure what Kyvat, on cold tyres, at the race start, could have done differently.

I'm not even sure you could call his oversteer an error, as opposed to just one of those things.

Definition of 1st lap racing incident.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 am 
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Tyre stints for all drivers:

Image
Source - www.imgur.com

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:46 am 
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Checo's amazing start where he made 4 places:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.must-see-perez-makes-up-four-places-in-amazing-china-start.65ZS2q9bIlYAxr3nd10T3h.html

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 am 
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Why did the commentators say things so incorrectly today. Leclerc and Kvyat both kept getting demonised by them. Incorrectly.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:59 am 
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Whoever was in charge of the broadcast today must have been suffering through a serious hangover from last night. So many bad shots were cut to: cameras moving around, odd zooming into cars at the final corner, some shots being held seconds longer than they should have been. Woeful!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:11 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Whoever was in charge of the broadcast today must have been suffering through a serious hangover from last night. So many bad shots were cut to: cameras moving around, odd zooming into cars at the final corner, some shots being held seconds longer than they should have been. Woeful!

Yep, bellow current standards. More like 90's.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:13 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Whoever was in charge of the broadcast today must have been suffering through a serious hangover from last night. So many bad shots were cut to: cameras moving around, odd zooming into cars at the final corner, some shots being held seconds longer than they should have been. Woeful!

Yep, bellow current standards. More like 90's.


To be fair, even if the cuts had been better, it wouldn't have made the race any more entertaining.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:54 am 
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Verstappen's & Kubica's spins on the formation lap:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:50 pm 
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Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


Even watching it on fast forward will be wasting some of your time though.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


You can bet the next race at Baku won't disappoint!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Renault (team) & Haas are struggling with either reliability or tyre temperature issues. This is a blessing in disguise for Alfa Romeo, McLaren, Toro Rosso & Racing Point as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:31 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Whoever was in charge of the broadcast today must have been suffering through a serious hangover from last night. So many bad shots were cut to: cameras moving around, odd zooming into cars at the final corner, some shots being held seconds longer than they should have been. Woeful!

Yep, bellow current standards. More like 90's.


To be fair, even if the cuts had been better, it wouldn't have made the race any more entertaining.


unfortunate, but i'm lmao, so true

ferrari need to sort their car out, or it is going to be a loooong season. they aren't anywhere close to the merc


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:52 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


Even watching it on fast forward will be wasting some of your time though.

True.

Only 10 minutes though.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Altair wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


Even watching it on fast forward will be wasting some of your time though.

True.

Only 10 minutes though.


Hopefully Liberty Media's proposed changes for 2021 will sort the sport out in this area, (a severe lack of entertainment, unpredictability and close racing). It's a long time to wait though. :(


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:30 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


Even watching it on fast forward will be wasting some of your time though.

True.

Only 10 minutes though.


Hopefully Liberty Media's proposed changes for 2021 will sort the sport out in this area, (a severe lack of entertainment, unpredictability and close racing). It's a long time to wait though. :(

Yes. I've taken breaks from F1 before though.

2009-2012.

2015-2017.

I can do 2019-2021.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:34 pm 
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Altair wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


Even watching it on fast forward will be wasting some of your time though.

True.

Only 10 minutes though.


Hopefully Liberty Media's proposed changes for 2021 will sort the sport out in this area, (a severe lack of entertainment, unpredictability and close racing). It's a long time to wait though. :(

Yes. I've taken breaks from F1 before though.

2009-2012.

2015-2017.

I can do 2019-2021.


So you have watched 13,14 and 18 in the last 10 years? You missed some great years 10,12,17 and watched possibly two of the worst seasons this millenium in 13 and 14.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Kvyat ran into the side of Sainz I thought?

I thought it was Norris. If not then it was Norris and Kvyat who touched first. One of the McLarens, anyway

I think Kvyat's snap oversteer put his left rear into Sainz's front right, which then snapped Kvyat back the other way and hit Norris's right rear with his front left.

Thoughts about Ferrari's race:

I think the call to let Vettel through was fair; he was staying within ~1s the entire lap for multiple laps. You have to assume that there's at least a little extra pace in there, and you don't want Mercedes to build a sizeable gap. Unfortunately, the extra pace wasn't enough to make a difference, and the swapped places put Leclerc at risk of an undercut.

I feel Ferrari is often too reactive and not proactive enough, and there are many times that if you wait to react, you've waited too long. You know what the pit window is, you know what the tire drop-off is like, why wait until the car behind goes for the undercut? I would have pit Leclerc the same lap that Verstappen pitted. In which case, Verstappen likely would have stayed out. From there, you have a lot more flexibility to decide your own fate with a 1-stop vs. 2-stop.

I don't think they should have pitted Leclerc a second time. You have a 13s advantage over Verstappen on fresh rubber with ~15 laps to go, so you're definitely at risk of being caught. But why would you trade that situation for a 13s deficit on only slightly newer rubber? Even if you can catch Verstappen, your tires are going to be gone by the time you do, and you'll have nothing left to make a move with.

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:33 pm 
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kowen1208 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Kvyat ran into the side of Sainz I thought?

I thought it was Norris. If not then it was Norris and Kvyat who touched first. One of the McLarens, anyway

I think Kvyat's snap oversteer put his left rear into Sainz's front right, which then snapped Kvyat back the other way and hit Norris's right rear with his front left.

Thoughts about Ferrari's race:

I think the call to let Vettel through was fair; he was staying within ~1s the entire lap for multiple laps. You have to assume that there's at least a little extra pace in there, and you don't want Mercedes to build a sizeable gap. Unfortunately, the extra pace wasn't enough to make a difference, and the swapped places put Leclerc at risk of an undercut.

I feel Ferrari is often too reactive and not proactive enough, and there are many times that if you wait to react, you've waited too long. You know what the pit window is, you know what the tire drop-off is like, why wait until the car behind goes for the undercut? I would have pit Leclerc the same lap that Verstappen pitted. In which case, Verstappen likely would have stayed out. From there, you have a lot more flexibility to decide your own fate with a 1-stop vs. 2-stop.

I don't think they should have pitted Leclerc a second time. You have a 13s advantage over Verstappen on fresh rubber with ~15 laps to go, so you're definitely at risk of being caught. But why would you trade that situation for a 13s deficit on only slightly newer rubber? Even if you can catch Verstappen, your tires are going to be gone by the time you do, and you'll have nothing left to make a move with.

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.

I agree Ferrari made the right call and they've basically admitted that they had an eye on Mercedes and were hoping Vettel might have been able to do something that Leclerc cleasrly couldn't.

I'm also with you about pitting Leclerc a second time, although to be fair we don't know the condition of the tyres and they may have felt that in the last few laps they may have given up entirely.

I don't agree they should have pitted a 3rd time, though (mainly for the associated risk you alluded to). I think Leclerc should have been much quicker than he was. If Vettel managed a 1:34.836 on lap 37, then with a lighter car and 7 laps' fresher rubber Leclerc should have blitzed that while chasing Verstappen. He was after all supposedly on a charge and his tyres only had to run for 13 laps or so. If he couldn't beat Vettel's time set with a heavier car earlier in the race, while going on a much, much shorter stint, then that suggests Ferrari were correct in getting Vettel in front as he was clearly quicker than Leclerc was. Leclerc should have had the fastest lap in the bag


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:53 pm 
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kowen1208 wrote:

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.


As Gasly pitted with only two laps to go, Leclerc was already past the pitlane by the time Gasly got there and so couldn't go for a fastest lap attempt. Well, he could have gone for it by pitting with two laps to go like Gasly did, but at that point he was just trying to take the point from Vettel which wouldn't have earned Ferrari any more points at that stage, and instead would have cost their lead driver a point.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:56 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
kowen1208 wrote:

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.


As Gasly pitted with only two laps to go, Leclerc was already past the pitlane by the time Gasly got there and so couldn't go for a fastest lap attempt. Well, he could have gone for it by pitting with two laps to go like Gasly did, but at that point he was just trying to take the point from Vettel which wouldn't have earned Ferrari any more points at that stage, and instead would have cost their lead driver a point.

Gasly set FL on second to last lap, meaning he pitted with three left. Since Leclerc was ahead on track, reacting to Gasly would have meant pitting two laps to go and having the last lap to make an attempt. In hindsight, I'm sure Ferrari would rather have Leclerc take a point from Vettel than for Gasly to. But that doesn't mean in hindsight they would take the risk of pitting.

I really don't understand the aversion to pitting for a fastest lap attempt. We see plenty of times that teams are willing to pit late in the race because their tires are losing pace, many times when they're not at risk of being overtaken. Prime example is Verstappen pitting late today. He had a sizeable gap to Leclerc on tires that, while several laps newer, probably didn't have enough life left to close the gap, let alone make a pass. Regardless, RBR was willing to risk a pit stop error and put Verstappen behind Leclerc because they felt the pace in new tires was worth it. What if Leclerc didn't take another stop? In that case, Verstappen regaining his position in front of Leclerc is really iffy. From my perspective, it was a bigger gamble for less gain than for a team to pit for FL when they have a big enough gap to maintain position.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:09 pm 
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kowen1208 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
kowen1208 wrote:

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.


As Gasly pitted with only two laps to go, Leclerc was already past the pitlane by the time Gasly got there and so couldn't go for a fastest lap attempt. Well, he could have gone for it by pitting with two laps to go like Gasly did, but at that point he was just trying to take the point from Vettel which wouldn't have earned Ferrari any more points at that stage, and instead would have cost their lead driver a point.

Gasly set FL on second to last lap, meaning he pitted with three left. Since Leclerc was ahead on track, reacting to Gasly would have meant pitting two laps to go and having the last lap to make an attempt. In hindsight, I'm sure Ferrari would rather have Leclerc take a point from Vettel than for Gasly to. But that doesn't mean in hindsight they would take the risk of pitting.

I really don't understand the aversion to pitting for a fastest lap attempt. We see plenty of times that teams are willing to pit late in the race because their tires are losing pace, many times when they're not at risk of being overtaken. Prime example is Verstappen pitting late today. He had a sizeable gap to Leclerc on tires that, while several laps newer, probably didn't have enough life left to close the gap, let alone make a pass. Regardless, RBR was willing to risk a pit stop error and put Verstappen behind Leclerc because they felt the pace in new tires was worth it. What if Leclerc didn't take another stop? In that case, Verstappen regaining his position in front of Leclerc is really iffy. From my perspective, it was a bigger gamble for less gain than for a team to pit for FL when they have a big enough gap to maintain position.


Ah, my bad. In that case they should have pitted Leclerc to cover the Gasly fastest lap attempt then.

This actually means that Red Bull pitted Gasly a lap too early then, giving Ferrari a chance to react with Leclerc. They were lucky that Ferrari didn't punish them for this mistake.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kowen1208 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Kvyat ran into the side of Sainz I thought?

I thought it was Norris. If not then it was Norris and Kvyat who touched first. One of the McLarens, anyway

I think Kvyat's snap oversteer put his left rear into Sainz's front right, which then snapped Kvyat back the other way and hit Norris's right rear with his front left.

Thoughts about Ferrari's race:

I think the call to let Vettel through was fair; he was staying within ~1s the entire lap for multiple laps. You have to assume that there's at least a little extra pace in there, and you don't want Mercedes to build a sizeable gap. Unfortunately, the extra pace wasn't enough to make a difference, and the swapped places put Leclerc at risk of an undercut.

I feel Ferrari is often too reactive and not proactive enough, and there are many times that if you wait to react, you've waited too long. You know what the pit window is, you know what the tire drop-off is like, why wait until the car behind goes for the undercut? I would have pit Leclerc the same lap that Verstappen pitted. In which case, Verstappen likely would have stayed out. From there, you have a lot more flexibility to decide your own fate with a 1-stop vs. 2-stop.

I don't think they should have pitted Leclerc a second time. You have a 13s advantage over Verstappen on fresh rubber with ~15 laps to go, so you're definitely at risk of being caught. But why would you trade that situation for a 13s deficit on only slightly newer rubber? Even if you can catch Verstappen, your tires are going to be gone by the time you do, and you'll have nothing left to make a move with.

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.

I agree Ferrari made the right call and they've basically admitted that they had an eye on Mercedes and were hoping Vettel might have been able to do something that Leclerc cleasrly couldn't.

I'm also with you about pitting Leclerc a second time, although to be fair we don't know the condition of the tyres and they may have felt that in the last few laps they may have given up entirely.

I don't agree they should have pitted a 3rd time, though (mainly for the associated risk you alluded to). I think Leclerc should have been much quicker than he was. If Vettel managed a 1:34.836 on lap 37, then with a lighter car and 7 laps' fresher rubber Leclerc should have blitzed that while chasing Verstappen. He was after all supposedly on a charge and his tyres only had to run for 13 laps or so. If he couldn't beat Vettel's time set with a heavier car earlier in the race, while going on a much, much shorter stint, then that suggests Ferrari were correct in getting Vettel in front as he was clearly quicker than Leclerc was. Leclerc should have had the fastest lap in the bag


Leclerc talked about having gear issues after his final stop. I wonder if that was why he wasn't as quick as you would think after the second stop. He was much quicker than Verstappen after stop one so could have been that.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:41 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kowen1208 wrote:
I think Kvyat's snap oversteer put his left rear into Sainz's front right, which then snapped Kvyat back the other way and hit Norris's right rear with his front left.

Thoughts about Ferrari's race:

I think the call to let Vettel through was fair; he was staying within ~1s the entire lap for multiple laps. You have to assume that there's at least a little extra pace in there, and you don't want Mercedes to build a sizeable gap. Unfortunately, the extra pace wasn't enough to make a difference, and the swapped places put Leclerc at risk of an undercut.

I feel Ferrari is often too reactive and not proactive enough, and there are many times that if you wait to react, you've waited too long. You know what the pit window is, you know what the tire drop-off is like, why wait until the car behind goes for the undercut? I would have pit Leclerc the same lap that Verstappen pitted. In which case, Verstappen likely would have stayed out. From there, you have a lot more flexibility to decide your own fate with a 1-stop vs. 2-stop.

I don't think they should have pitted Leclerc a second time. You have a 13s advantage over Verstappen on fresh rubber with ~15 laps to go, so you're definitely at risk of being caught. But why would you trade that situation for a 13s deficit on only slightly newer rubber? Even if you can catch Verstappen, your tires are going to be gone by the time you do, and you'll have nothing left to make a move with.

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.

I agree Ferrari made the right call and they've basically admitted that they had an eye on Mercedes and were hoping Vettel might have been able to do something that Leclerc cleasrly couldn't.

I'm also with you about pitting Leclerc a second time, although to be fair we don't know the condition of the tyres and they may have felt that in the last few laps they may have given up entirely.

I don't agree they should have pitted a 3rd time, though (mainly for the associated risk you alluded to). I think Leclerc should have been much quicker than he was. If Vettel managed a 1:34.836 on lap 37, then with a lighter car and 7 laps' fresher rubber Leclerc should have blitzed that while chasing Verstappen. He was after all supposedly on a charge and his tyres only had to run for 13 laps or so. If he couldn't beat Vettel's time set with a heavier car earlier in the race, while going on a much, much shorter stint, then that suggests Ferrari were correct in getting Vettel in front as he was clearly quicker than Leclerc was. Leclerc should have had the fastest lap in the bag


Leclerc talked about having gear issues after his final stop. I wonder if that was why he wasn't as quick as you would think after the second stop. He was much quicker than Verstappen after stop one so could have been that.

That's true; I was forgetting about the gear issue. The radio communication that was broadcast implied it was fine, but we don't know if it was fine because of settings that were changed, or whatever else.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:13 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
kowen1208 wrote:

But since they did pit Leclerc and Leclerc couldn't catch Verstappen, they should have pitted after Gasly gave them the window to do so. Vettel's fastest time was 1:34.836 on new mediums on lap 37 of 56. Gasly's was 1:34.742 on new softs on lap 55 of 56. With a definite tire and fuel weight advantage, Gasly only bested Vettel by 0.094s. Surely Leclerc could have done better than that on new mediums or the used softs he had available. But who knows, maybe Leclerc didn't feel comfortable pitting again after whatever that little stutter was leaving his second stop.


As Gasly pitted with only two laps to go, Leclerc was already past the pitlane by the time Gasly got there and so couldn't go for a fastest lap attempt. Well, he could have gone for it by pitting with two laps to go like Gasly did, but at that point he was just trying to take the point from Vettel which wouldn't have earned Ferrari any more points at that stage, and instead would have cost their lead driver a point.


how about pitting for the red soft tyre? could it last 13 laps?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
So you have watched 13,14 and 18 in the last 10 years? You missed some great years 10,12,17 and watched possibly two of the worst seasons this millenium in 13 and 14.

14 wasn't that bad. I'd say 15 was much worse, personally.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:40 am 
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http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel

Looking at the lap time comparison between LeClerc and Vettel, it's fairly plain to see that Vettel wasn't really any quicker than LeClerc.
In similar circumstances in the past the other teams have swapped the drivers around again.
Hamilton, Hungary 2017 springs to mind.

I think Ferrari are chucking all their eggs in the wrong basket.
Leclerc should now have 7 more points than he has and that's not including the 10 he lost in Bahrain.
He should be right up there in the fight for the WDC, Vettel on the other hand?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:45 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=1020&graf=3&dr1=Charles%20Leclerc&dr2=Sebastian%20Vettel

Looking at the lap time comparison between LeClerc and Vettel, it's fairly plain to see that Vettel wasn't really any quicker than LeClerc.
In similar circumstances in the past the other teams have swapped the drivers around again.
Hamilton, Hungary 2017 springs to mind.

I think Ferrari are chucking all their eggs in the wrong basket.
Leclerc should now have 7 more points than he has and that's not including the 10 he lost in Bahrain.
He should be right up there in the fight for the WDC, Vettel on the other hand?

They're sacrificing the team to protect Vettel's ego, is what it feels like to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:10 am 
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Gasly did only just nick the fastest lap from Vettel by 0.094 on brand new softs.

Gasly: 1:34.742
Vettel: 1:34.836 +0.094


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:57 am 
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Gasly was 1.8 seconds slower than qualifying, seems about right given engine modes etc


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=1020&graf=3&dr1=Charles%20Leclerc&dr2=Sebastian%20Vettel

Looking at the lap time comparison between LeClerc and Vettel, it's fairly plain to see that Vettel wasn't really any quicker than LeClerc.
In similar circumstances in the past the other teams have swapped the drivers around again.
Hamilton, Hungary 2017 springs to mind.

I think Ferrari are chucking all their eggs in the wrong basket.
Leclerc should now have 7 more points than he has and that's not including the 10 he lost in Bahrain.
He should be right up there in the fight for the WDC, Vettel on the other hand?

Actually that shows pretty much what we thought from the broadcast, Vettel was about 1 to 2 tenths quicker at that stage as you can see from the point he gets let past to the pit stops. He didn't help himself by locking up and throwing that away on a couple of laps (looking at the data I'm going to guess those were laps 13 and 15 since Leclerc goes slightly quicker).

I'm not a fan of team orders and I dont think 1-2 tenths justifies it but in Ferrari's defence they couldn't have known it wasnt more at the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:12 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=1020&graf=3&dr1=Charles%20Leclerc&dr2=Sebastian%20Vettel

Looking at the lap time comparison between LeClerc and Vettel, it's fairly plain to see that Vettel wasn't really any quicker than LeClerc.
In similar circumstances in the past the other teams have swapped the drivers around again.
Hamilton, Hungary 2017 springs to mind.

I think Ferrari are chucking all their eggs in the wrong basket.
Leclerc should now have 7 more points than he has and that's not including the 10 he lost in Bahrain.
He should be right up there in the fight for the WDC, Vettel on the other hand?

Actually that shows pretty much what we thought from the broadcast, Vettel was about 1 to 2 tenths quicker at that stage as you can see from the point he gets let past to the pit stops. He didn't help himself by locking up and throwing that away on a couple of laps (looking at the data I'm going to guess those were laps 13 and 15 since Leclerc goes slightly quicker).

I'm not a fan of team orders and I dont think 1-2 tenths justifies it but in Ferrari's defence they couldn't have known it wasnt more at the time.

Yeah I'd agree. Vettel also admitted he thought he would be quicker than he was after being let through, but hindsight is a wonderful thing of course.

Where Ferrari really hung Leclerc out to dry was not with that but with the strategy they subsequerntly adopted. Instead of trying to get Leclerc in a position to retake the spot from Verstappen, they instead focused him on trying to block Bottas to enable Vettel to catch up. They left him out a couple of laps too long after Vettel pitted, where he lost huge chunks of time, and then later they gave him too much to do to catch Verstappen at the end, as he was losing some 1.5s a lap for three laps before he finally pitted. He had a bit of a nothing strategy reminiscent of Kimi at times last year where they seemed to forget about him and just focus on the lead car. I suspect they were hoping he could lap quickly enough to keep Verstappen at bay but left it too long to adapt when that turned out not to be the case


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:17 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=1020&graf=3&dr1=Charles%20Leclerc&dr2=Sebastian%20Vettel

Looking at the lap time comparison between LeClerc and Vettel, it's fairly plain to see that Vettel wasn't really any quicker than LeClerc.
In similar circumstances in the past the other teams have swapped the drivers around again.
Hamilton, Hungary 2017 springs to mind.

I think Ferrari are chucking all their eggs in the wrong basket.
Leclerc should now have 7 more points than he has and that's not including the 10 he lost in Bahrain.
He should be right up there in the fight for the WDC, Vettel on the other hand?

Actually that shows pretty much what we thought from the broadcast, Vettel was about 1 to 2 tenths quicker at that stage as you can see from the point he gets let past to the pit stops. He didn't help himself by locking up and throwing that away on a couple of laps (looking at the data I'm going to guess those were laps 13 and 15 since Leclerc goes slightly quicker).

I'm not a fan of team orders and I dont think 1-2 tenths justifies it but in Ferrari's defence they couldn't have known it wasnt more at the time.

Yeah I'd agree. Vettel also admitted he thought he would be quicker than he was after being let through, but hindsight is a wonderful thing of course.

Where Ferrari really hung Leclerc out to dry was not with that but with the strategy they subsequerntly adopted. Instead of trying to get Leclerc in a position to retake the spot from Verstappen, they instead focused him on trying to block Bottas to enable Vettel to catch up. They left him out a couple of laps too long after Vettel pitted, where he lost huge chunks of time, and then later they gave him too much to do to catch Verstappen at the end, as he was losing some 1.5s a lap for three laps before he finally pitted. He had a bit of a nothing strategy reminiscent of Kimi at times last year where they seemed to forget about him and just focus on the lead car. I suspect they were hoping he could lap quickly enough to keep Verstappen at bay but left it too long to adapt when that turned out not to be the case


:thumbup:

I think Ferrari did what they had to do with moving Leclerc aside. If I was Leclerc though I'd be very angry that after I was moved out of the way I was treated as an after thought for the rest of the race.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:23 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=1020&graf=3&dr1=Charles%20Leclerc&dr2=Sebastian%20Vettel

Looking at the lap time comparison between LeClerc and Vettel, it's fairly plain to see that Vettel wasn't really any quicker than LeClerc.
In similar circumstances in the past the other teams have swapped the drivers around again.
Hamilton, Hungary 2017 springs to mind.

I think Ferrari are chucking all their eggs in the wrong basket.
Leclerc should now have 7 more points than he has and that's not including the 10 he lost in Bahrain.
He should be right up there in the fight for the WDC, Vettel on the other hand?

They're sacrificing the team to protect Vettel's ego, is what it feels like to me.


The ones reading Italian can go to the Gazetta dello Sport website. Though La Gazetta is trying to keep its balance on the fence, it looks like their Italian readers are not impressed by Ferrari strategists and their drivers political management, and find difficult to see any difference between Arrivabene and Binotto.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:38 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Altair wrote:
Yawn.

So glad I record this so I can watch the race on fast forward and not feel like I've wasted my time.


Even watching it on fast forward will be wasting some of your time though.

True.

Only 10 minutes though.


Hopefully Liberty Media's proposed changes for 2021 will sort the sport out in this area, (a severe lack of entertainment, unpredictability and close racing). It's a long time to wait though. :(

The sport of Formula 1 hasn’t changed since forever really. This, as you put it, severe lack of entertainment (hyperbole) has always existed. Have you recently gone back to rewatch some of the races from the past? I assure you modern f1 is quite healthy. Or have we already forgot about Bahrain only 2 weeks ago? The difference is in the way we consume content compared to back then. Nowadays if it’s not shock and awe it’s not worth bothering about. China was a very very typical F1 race, more of the norm in a dry race. We only think the past was better because the brain only chooses to remember the good moments. It’s like a highlights package where we only cherry pick the memorable drives but if you really look objectively enough you will find that 2016, 2017 and 2018 had some pretty amazing races in them. 2016 and 2018 more so for the title battles. 2012 was incredible as well. The only season recently that’s not memorable was 2015, and in itself is a typical F1 season with 1 driver running away with the championship. As long as F1 does not become a spec series it’s DNA will always ensure that 1 team does better than the rest. No 2 teams are ever going to produce the exact same car so even in 2021 we are going to see 1 team do better than the rest and the cycle starts all over again. Who knows it could even still be Mercedes at the front.


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