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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:07 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You can't mascaraed as being a Hamilton fan with that kind of nonsense against him?


You see, there's a difference between a fan, and a blind fan. A fan will note the good and bad and given an honest appraisal. A blind fan however...

This is why I have been critical of Hamilton's performance so far in 2019 and why I rate Bottas higher.

I don't see anything honest about your appraisal, you say it could have been a 3-0 whitewash in wins for Bottas if he had not a bad start in China and Hamilton had not got lucky in Bahrain ignoring Hamilton's bad start from pole in Australia, that's just one thing I highlight in your lopsided appraisal.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:51 pm 
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dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:05 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:32 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.



I'm quite confused about this sentence... If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc didn't have his problem in Bahrain, Hamilton finished 2nd and Bottas 4th, Bottas would be in the lead of the championship by 2 points not 1. I have no clue where "well behind in the points" comes from. I may not agree with a quite a lot of what dpastern is saying, but I do thing hamilton was very lucky to gain those points when a win looked extremely unlikely without good luck.

I don't know what luck Bottas has had really compared to Hamilton. Even if Hamilton has had a better season so far, Bottas has done what he needed to to result in being ahead of him at the moment, and I don't think he's had luck to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:21 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.



I'm quite confused about this sentence... If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc didn't have his problem in Bahrain, Hamilton finished 2nd and Bottas 4th, Bottas would be in the lead of the championship by 2 points not 1. I have no clue where "well behind in the points" comes from. I may not agree with a quite a lot of what dpastern is saying, but I do thing hamilton was very lucky to gain those points when a win looked extremely unlikely without good luck.

I don't know what luck Bottas has had really compared to Hamilton. Even if Hamilton has had a better season so far, Bottas has done what he needed to to result in being ahead of him at the moment, and I don't think he's had luck to do that.


You are right. I got the math wrong. But still, he finished second on the podium when he was really far from finishing on the podium before Ferrari fell apart in that race. So I'd say he benefited. You can argue Lewis benefited more, but Lewis was always going to finish on the podium. My whole point is that so far Bottas hasn't had to race the Ferraris. Let's see what happens when he has to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:31 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.



I'm quite confused about this sentence... If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc didn't have his problem in Bahrain, Hamilton finished 2nd and Bottas 4th, Bottas would be in the lead of the championship by 2 points not 1. I have no clue where "well behind in the points" comes from. I may not agree with a quite a lot of what dpastern is saying, but I do thing hamilton was very lucky to gain those points when a win looked extremely unlikely without good luck.

I don't know what luck Bottas has had really compared to Hamilton. Even if Hamilton has had a better season so far, Bottas has done what he needed to to result in being ahead of him at the moment, and I don't think he's had luck to do that.


You are right. I got the math wrong. But still, he finished second on the podium when he was really far from finishing on the podium before Ferrari fell apart in that race. So I'd say he benefited. You can argue Lewis benefited more, but Lewis was always going to finish on the podium. My whole point is that so far Bottas hasn't had to race the Ferraris. Let's see what happens when he has to do that.


I agree both did benefit. But in terms of their own points, if they finished that race with Hamilton in 2nd and 4th for Bottas (which was looking most likely without Ferrari trouble), Bottas would be leading Hamilton by a little more than now in the championship. And that is why I mentioned that he gained more out of ferrari's bad luck than Bottas. But you can also say that he was in the right place and performed better than Bottas at an important time.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:50 pm 
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After R5 Spain

Hamilton: 8.2
Verstappen: 8.0
Bottas: 8.0

Raikkonen: 7.8
Albon: 7.2
Leclerc: 7.0
Sainz: 7.0
Russel: 7.0

Perez: 6.8
Norris: 6.6
Kvyat: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.2
Stroll: 6.2
Ricciardo: 6.1
Magnussen: 6.0
Vettel: 6.0

Grosjean: 5.8
Gasly: 5.6
Giovanazzi: 5.4
Kubica: 5.4

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:42 am 
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The best has been Verstappen, followed by Hamilton.

Bottas is top 5, not sure about him being second or third, as Hamilton for the most part has had substantially better race pace. Hamilton outclassed Bottas in Spain and yet had no problem in harrying him in Baku. Overall it's blatantly obvious that the best performing driver pairing has been the Mercedes boys.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:35 am 
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that list is far more realistic after 5 races than earlier on. The main thing I disagree with is Leclerc overall looking better than Vettel which is certainly not the case. Vettel had one poor race. Leclerc has had one very poor weekend and one excellent one. The other 3, Vettel still overall had superior pace and out qualified him in all 3.

The other one i disagree with is the margin Albon is ahead of Kvyat. Kvyat was very unlucky in Bahrain and although he crashed 2 drivers out one race, it hardly looked like a very clumsy mistake. Any driver could have done that. Then got knocked out in Baku by a very odd incident. He did very well in Australia and incredibly well last time out in spain. Also take note that 2 renaults retiring in Bahrain gave Albon 2 of his points. Otherwise it will have been 11th. I think it is clear Kvyat has been slightly better but these scores don't suggest that. If the 2 toro Rosso drivers didn't have that poor final stop, it will have likely been 8th and 10th in Spain.


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:25 am 
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Doesn't reflect well on Renault line up does it...

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:26 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Doesn't reflect well on Renault line up does it...


I think it just reflects the car being slower than expected and the drivers being close in performance. A killer for any drivers reputation.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:29 pm 
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After Monaco then

Hamilton: 8.3
Bottas: 8.0
Verstappen: 8.0

Raikkonen: 7.3
Albon: 7.2
Russel: 7.2
Sainz: 7.2

Kvyat: 6.7
Leclerc: 6.7
Perez: 6.7
Norris: 6.5
Vettel: 6.3
Ricciardo: 6.3
Grosjean: 6.0
Hulkenberg: 6.0
Magnussen: 6.0
Stroll: 6.0

Gasly: 5.7
Kubica: 5.5
Giovanazzi: 5.2

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:15 pm 
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After Canada

Hamilton: 8.4

Verstappen: 7.9
Bottas: 7.7
Russel: 7.1
Sainz: 7.1
Albon: 7
Raikkonen: 7

Kvyat: 6.9
Leclerc: 6.9
Vettel: 6.7
Ricciardo: 6.6
Perez: 6.6
Norris: 6.5
Stroll: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.3

Grosjean: 5.9
Magnussen: 5.7
Gasly: 5.6
Giovanazzi: 5.3
Kubica: 5.3

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