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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:07 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You can't mascaraed as being a Hamilton fan with that kind of nonsense against him?


You see, there's a difference between a fan, and a blind fan. A fan will note the good and bad and given an honest appraisal. A blind fan however...

This is why I have been critical of Hamilton's performance so far in 2019 and why I rate Bottas higher.

I don't see anything honest about your appraisal, you say it could have been a 3-0 whitewash in wins for Bottas if he had not a bad start in China and Hamilton had not got lucky in Bahrain ignoring Hamilton's bad start from pole in Australia, that's just one thing I highlight in your lopsided appraisal.

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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 9:51 pm 
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dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:05 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 10:32 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.



I'm quite confused about this sentence... If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc didn't have his problem in Bahrain, Hamilton finished 2nd and Bottas 4th, Bottas would be in the lead of the championship by 2 points not 1. I have no clue where "well behind in the points" comes from. I may not agree with a quite a lot of what dpastern is saying, but I do thing hamilton was very lucky to gain those points when a win looked extremely unlikely without good luck.

I don't know what luck Bottas has had really compared to Hamilton. Even if Hamilton has had a better season so far, Bottas has done what he needed to to result in being ahead of him at the moment, and I don't think he's had luck to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 1:21 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.



I'm quite confused about this sentence... If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc didn't have his problem in Bahrain, Hamilton finished 2nd and Bottas 4th, Bottas would be in the lead of the championship by 2 points not 1. I have no clue where "well behind in the points" comes from. I may not agree with a quite a lot of what dpastern is saying, but I do thing hamilton was very lucky to gain those points when a win looked extremely unlikely without good luck.

I don't know what luck Bottas has had really compared to Hamilton. Even if Hamilton has had a better season so far, Bottas has done what he needed to to result in being ahead of him at the moment, and I don't think he's had luck to do that.


You are right. I got the math wrong. But still, he finished second on the podium when he was really far from finishing on the podium before Ferrari fell apart in that race. So I'd say he benefited. You can argue Lewis benefited more, but Lewis was always going to finish on the podium. My whole point is that so far Bottas hasn't had to race the Ferraris. Let's see what happens when he has to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:31 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dpastern wrote:

Hamilton had pole in Australia, that's it. China and Baku, Bottas had pole. Bharain, Leclerc. Fastest lap? Hamilton has none this year. Bottas has 1 (Australia). 2 wins apiece. Bottas has looked more effective so far imho (and I'm a Hamilton fan!). Lewis wasn't particularly aggressive in the opening lap of Baku - should really have come out ahead imho.

To be fair to Lewis, it seems that this is a repeat of the 2016 season, where the car isn't to his liking and he's having to adapt his driving style rather than just be outright fast naturally. How much that is impacting Lewis' performance is hard to say.

Leclerc gets a 7.8 from me - very fast, good head on his shoulders, but a bit of bad luck, and lack of experience have cost him in my rankings imho. Vettel is languishing down in a 5.5 on my rankings.

I'm actually starting to think that Bottas will win the 2019 WDC - yes. I'm serious.
Basically, it's two all in quali and in races. Their performance has been very even.



edit: Bottas has dominated Australia and Baku. Hamilton dominated China. Hamilton was VERY lucky in Bahrain (although he did outperform Bottas that weekend I do admit). If Leclerc had not been unlucky in Bahrain, and Vettel his usual clumsy self, Hamilton would have been 3rd in Bahrain, not a winner. So, it'd be 2-1 in wins for Bottas vs Hamilton, and Bottas would be even further ahead on points in the WDC! If we take into account Bottas' bad start in China, that could have been another win for a 3-0 whitewash of Hamilton at this point of the season.

Bottas has most certainly been the far stronger, and far more impressive driver of the 2 Mercedes stars so far. It's like day and night.


I think when the season is done you will find out how wrong you were. The saving grace for Bottas is that Ferrari has royally handed Mercedes two races on a platter while Merc was dominant in the other two, so he's never really had any other competition so far outside of Lewis. If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc not break down in Bahrain, Bottas would be well behind Lewis in the points. During the races so far he was slower than Lewis except for Australia, where Lewis had a damaged car. He is not going to challenge lewis for the WDC unless he gets some luck combined with Lewis's bad luck.

These past two years I felt he was exposed when having to race the likes of Vettel, Verstappen and Ricciardo. If Ferrari can get their act together and mount a decent challenge I think you will see Bottas drop all the way down the standings with Leclerc and Vettel surpassing him. Sorry, I don't buy this "new Bottas" narrative. You are who you are and I think we have seen enough of Bottas to know who he is. So basically I feel that with the class of drivers that are in the top cars he does not really belong in that class. He is a good solid driver, but he is not great and he will get shown up sooner or later. My 2 cents.



I'm quite confused about this sentence... If Vettel hadn't spun and Leclerc didn't have his problem in Bahrain, Hamilton finished 2nd and Bottas 4th, Bottas would be in the lead of the championship by 2 points not 1. I have no clue where "well behind in the points" comes from. I may not agree with a quite a lot of what dpastern is saying, but I do thing hamilton was very lucky to gain those points when a win looked extremely unlikely without good luck.

I don't know what luck Bottas has had really compared to Hamilton. Even if Hamilton has had a better season so far, Bottas has done what he needed to to result in being ahead of him at the moment, and I don't think he's had luck to do that.


You are right. I got the math wrong. But still, he finished second on the podium when he was really far from finishing on the podium before Ferrari fell apart in that race. So I'd say he benefited. You can argue Lewis benefited more, but Lewis was always going to finish on the podium. My whole point is that so far Bottas hasn't had to race the Ferraris. Let's see what happens when he has to do that.


I agree both did benefit. But in terms of their own points, if they finished that race with Hamilton in 2nd and 4th for Bottas (which was looking most likely without Ferrari trouble), Bottas would be leading Hamilton by a little more than now in the championship. And that is why I mentioned that he gained more out of ferrari's bad luck than Bottas. But you can also say that he was in the right place and performed better than Bottas at an important time.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:50 pm 
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After R5 Spain

Hamilton: 8.2
Verstappen: 8.0
Bottas: 8.0

Raikkonen: 7.8
Albon: 7.2
Leclerc: 7.0
Sainz: 7.0
Russel: 7.0

Perez: 6.8
Norris: 6.6
Kvyat: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.2
Stroll: 6.2
Ricciardo: 6.1
Magnussen: 6.0
Vettel: 6.0

Grosjean: 5.8
Gasly: 5.6
Giovanazzi: 5.4
Kubica: 5.4

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:42 am 
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The best has been Verstappen, followed by Hamilton.

Bottas is top 5, not sure about him being second or third, as Hamilton for the most part has had substantially better race pace. Hamilton outclassed Bottas in Spain and yet had no problem in harrying him in Baku. Overall it's blatantly obvious that the best performing driver pairing has been the Mercedes boys.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:35 am 
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that list is far more realistic after 5 races than earlier on. The main thing I disagree with is Leclerc overall looking better than Vettel which is certainly not the case. Vettel had one poor race. Leclerc has had one very poor weekend and one excellent one. The other 3, Vettel still overall had superior pace and out qualified him in all 3.

The other one i disagree with is the margin Albon is ahead of Kvyat. Kvyat was very unlucky in Bahrain and although he crashed 2 drivers out one race, it hardly looked like a very clumsy mistake. Any driver could have done that. Then got knocked out in Baku by a very odd incident. He did very well in Australia and incredibly well last time out in spain. Also take note that 2 renaults retiring in Bahrain gave Albon 2 of his points. Otherwise it will have been 11th. I think it is clear Kvyat has been slightly better but these scores don't suggest that. If the 2 toro Rosso drivers didn't have that poor final stop, it will have likely been 8th and 10th in Spain.


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:25 am 
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Doesn't reflect well on Renault line up does it...

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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:26 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Doesn't reflect well on Renault line up does it...


I think it just reflects the car being slower than expected and the drivers being close in performance. A killer for any drivers reputation.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:29 pm 
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After Monaco then

Hamilton: 8.3
Bottas: 8.0
Verstappen: 8.0

Raikkonen: 7.3
Albon: 7.2
Russel: 7.2
Sainz: 7.2

Kvyat: 6.7
Leclerc: 6.7
Perez: 6.7
Norris: 6.5
Vettel: 6.3
Ricciardo: 6.3
Grosjean: 6.0
Hulkenberg: 6.0
Magnussen: 6.0
Stroll: 6.0

Gasly: 5.7
Kubica: 5.5
Giovanazzi: 5.2

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:15 pm 
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After Canada

Hamilton: 8.4

Verstappen: 7.9
Bottas: 7.7
Russel: 7.1
Sainz: 7.1
Albon: 7
Raikkonen: 7

Kvyat: 6.9
Leclerc: 6.9
Vettel: 6.7
Ricciardo: 6.6
Perez: 6.6
Norris: 6.5
Stroll: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.3

Grosjean: 5.9
Magnussen: 5.7
Gasly: 5.6
Giovanazzi: 5.3
Kubica: 5.3

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:28 pm 
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After France:

Hamilton: 8.6

Verstappen: 7.8
Bottas: 7.5
Sainz: 7.4
Raikkonen: 7.1
Leclerc: 7

Kvyat: 6.9
Russel: 6.9
Norris: 6.8
Ricciardo: 6.8
Albon: 6.8
Perez: 6.6
Vettel: 6.6
Hulkenberg: 6.4
Stroll: 6.4

Grosjean: 5.8
Magnussen: 5.6
Gasly: 5.4
Giovanazzi: 5.4
Kubica: 5.4

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:52 am 
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Hamilton has done enough now to be in consideration for the best driver of the season so far, but Verstappen is underrated at this point and should be right there with a score about equal to Hamilton's. It's funny to see that Leclerc is clearly ahead of Vettel given what has transpired.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:28 pm 
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After Austria/British GP's

Hamilton: 8.4
Verstappen: 8.1

Sainz: 7.7
Bottas: 7.6
Leclerc: 7.4
Raikkonen: 7.3
Norris: 7.2
Russel: 7

Albon: 6.9
Kvyat: 6.8
Ricciardo: 6.8
Vettel: 6.6
Perez: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.3
Stroll: 6.2

Giovanazzi: 5.8
Gasly: 5.5
Grosjean: 5.4
Magnussen: 5.4
Kubica: 5.3

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:35 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
After Austria/British GP's

Hamilton: 8.4
Verstappen: 8.1

Sainz: 7.7
Bottas: 7.6
Leclerc: 7.4
Raikkonen: 7.3
Norris: 7.2
Russel: 7

Albon: 6.9
Kvyat: 6.8
Ricciardo: 6.8
Vettel: 6.6
Perez: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.3
Stroll: 6.2

Giovanazzi: 5.8
Gasly: 5.5
Grosjean: 5.4
Magnussen: 5.4
Kubica: 5.3


Just for fun and as we are now half way through the season here is how I would rank them based on this season so far -

1.Verstappen
2.Hamilton
3.Bottas
4.Sainz
5.Leclerc
6.Raikkonen
7.Vettel
8.Norris
9.Perez
10.Ricciardo
11.Russell
12.Hulkenberg
13.Kvyat
14.Magnussen
15.Albon
16.Stroll
17.Grosjean
18.Giovinazzi
19.Gasly
20.Kubica


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:12 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
After Austria/British GP's

Hamilton: 8.4
Verstappen: 8.1

Sainz: 7.7
Bottas: 7.6
Leclerc: 7.4
Raikkonen: 7.3
Norris: 7.2
Russel: 7

Albon: 6.9
Kvyat: 6.8
Ricciardo: 6.8
Vettel: 6.6
Perez: 6.4
Hulkenberg: 6.3
Stroll: 6.2

Giovanazzi: 5.8
Gasly: 5.5
Grosjean: 5.4
Magnussen: 5.4
Kubica: 5.3


Agree with all these divided groups of drivers other than Leclerc being miles ahead of Vettel. Overall, Leclerc has been slightly better, but I would move Vettel up to the next group. I agree with the other groups but would shuffle a few of the positions a bit.

The bottom 5, I don't think I would argue with the order. Giovinazzi the best of the lot and Kubica very obviously the worst.
I would possibly move Gasly behind the 2 Hass drivers though.

The next group of 7, I would keep Stroll at the bottom. But he certainly hasn't been that bad overall this year. Enough to clear him quite a bit above the rest IMO. I would put Hulkenberg next up With Ricciardo only 1 place ahead. Hulkenberg has been pretty unlucky in some recent races. Ricciardo isn't looking as good as he was over the last few years. But IMO, both have overall disappointed me this year. I think Ricciardo especially should be doing better. He has done better than Hulkenberg, but on race day, I think there has barely been anything in it this season.
I would probably put Perez at the top of this list. Followed by Kvyat then Albon.

Russel is quite hard to vote, but is is showing that he's pretty good for that terrible car. Sometimes is beating a Hass. If he was in a better car, I could probably vote him higher, but it is too hard to tell. Would vote him Bottom of this next group.

I think Sainz and Norris have both looked very strong this year. I don't think Sainz has obviously looked a lot better. I would vote them very close.

Vettel has looked very strong at times but makes too many mistakes. His small mistake of a spin in Bahrain had a very unfortunate outcome though. A flat spot causing a front wing failure was pretty unlucky. This made his race look a bit worse than it was really. But the latest race he had no excuse for and for this, I would now rate him below Leclerc for the season. I do think he was a bit unfortunate in Canada. It was his mistake and the penalty was deserved, but even after the incident, he didn't panic and continued a very solid drive keeping Hamilton behind.
Kimi has overall had a very solid year. Most of the time getting a very realistic result for that car. Looking stronger than he was at Ferrari. Would rate him ahead of Vettel this year so far.

Leclerc looked up and down over the first 6 races of this season. Monaco may not have been his fault entirely for starting where he did, but the way he ended his race was the most stupid looking way any driver has done this in the last few years IMO. He may have only been in his 2nd season, but he had a massive pace advantage over the other cars. He should have stayed calm and done a long run and got past them this way into the points. Hitting Grosjean didn't end his race, the ridiculous manner of driving back to the pits did. This though was a mssive negative point of his season. He had a mistake in qualifying in Baku too. But other than that, his best races have easily looked better than Vettel's. It looked flawless in Bahrain and nearly as good in Australia. I think both him and Verstappen could have done the defending/overtaking better at the end of that race. But Leclerc anyhow was still really strong here. He also looked a fair bit better than vettel in Britain. And Vettel actually looked good in the race until his crash. It may seem a bit much to soem that I would vote Bottas ahead of Leclerc, but it is due to leclercs huge mistakes that lets him down. Bottas hasn't made any like this.

For Bottas I think this is his best start to any season. Hamilton may have had his usual slow-ish start, but I think it is obviously better than the last 2 years. He looked to be challenging Bottas pretty hard in Baku and Britain during the race but Bottas resisted both times in the on track battle. Given how strong many are saying Hamilton currently is, I don't think beating him just 3 times is that bad for Bottas. The team would have had 8 out of 10 1 - 2 if not for Verstappen hitting Bottas in the pit lane. I think Bottas did lack pace in Bahrain and France especially though and underperformed in Canada. but it has to be said that Bottas got a realistic position in Austria while Hamilton got the worst of the season for Mercedes. Qualifying average may be same as last year pretty much, but I think both are better than last year, so Bottas certainly isn't doing bad at 6 - 4 to Hamilton.

Verstappen can quite possibly be the quickest driver on track. But I think Hamilton also could be if he went for it the same way as Verstappen, which is not always right. To me, verstappen still is driving in a similar way to the start of last season, but his moves are just luckily not resulting badly. Seriously, at least 3 of them this year now could have gone seriously wrong. In Monaco, He could have given himself a puncture with Hamilton on that attempt near the end. Similar with Leclerc in Austria. Both occasions were pointless to me. He was going to get past leclerc anyway. he didn't need to rush and take stupid risks. He would have had a massive advantage has he just taken that corner smoothly and got him just after that. Or even the next lap. Monaco, he wasn't going to find a way by Hamilton plus he had a penalty so why risk doing what he did? He could well have caused them both damage. These are not the only times he's come close to getting damaged. He just seems to have this thing in his mind that he takes risks no matter what the consequences are. They are working out this year almost every time. But they won't always. I can still see some retirements coming unless he calms down a bit. Rant over. Now to more of the positives. He is certainly pretty much the quickest driver out there. I think he likely could out qualify Hamilton more often than not given that Bottas has been close recently. So, I think he very likely has the best 1 lap pace of anyone. He seems to be the best of anyone at recovering in races that either the team or he has messed up. But then I think the red bull seems better at overtaking and following other cars than Ferrari or Mercedes. But still, he is extremely good at this.

I've pretty much explained what I think the weaknesses for Verstappen are and Hamilton doesn't have these. His moves are judged and planned better to me. He rarely even looked close to messing his own or another up when overtaking. And his race pace and tyre management is probably the best out there. This to me makes Bottas look a bit worse than he is. Although I do think tyre management is one of his weaknesses.


1: Hamilton
2: Verstappen

3: Bottas
4: Leclerc
5: Raikkonen
6: Vettel
7: Sainz
8: Norris
9: Russel

10: Perez
11: Kvyat
12: Albon
13: Ricciardo
14: Hulkenberg
15: Stroll

16: Giovanazzi
17: Grosjean
18: Magnussen
19: Gasly
20: Kubica

These are split up with a gap when I think here is a pretty big gap to the rest. But it is a bit hard to judge. When i read my own list i soemtimes disagree with myself, shuffle it then it looks wrong too! I question myself when I put hulkenberg and Ricciardo only just above Stroll. Then also questioned how i could have Kvyat above Ricciardo. Well, I think Ricciardo's performance is nothing like as good as it was at red Bull and some of his incidents this year (especially the one with Kvyat) was just ridiculous. Kvyat maybe had impressed me given how awful he was when he was last in F1. His mistake in china was criticized too much IMO. To me, he has come back strong this season and is looking impressive. Albon looking impressive too. Stroll is poor in qualifying and clearly not as good as perez in the race either, but he is not a lot worse on race day. And given Perez is concidered to be decent, Stroll should be given some credit. He's beaten Perez 3 times on race day. He's certainly more impressive then the bottom 5.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:21 am 
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I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:04 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:10 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.

You never thought that the Hulk has not looked as good because he's being compared with Ricciardo?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:11 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.

This always happens, put Sainz and Norris in the Haas and then all of a sudden they don't look as marvelous perhaps?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.

This always happens, put Sainz and Norris in the Haas and then all of a sudden they don't look as marvelous perhaps?


Exactly.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.

Yea i think both have underperformed. Hulkenberg may not have crashed in Baku, but that looked like one of the weakest performances this year by any driver. He was last excluding the Williams, 25 seconds behind the next car up. Hulkenberg has been solid most of the time but hasn't really done anything special either. And Other than in qualifying, Ricciardo isn't really looking much better. And I think Riccirdo's season in looking a fair bit worse than last year. Don't know if we can blame the fact he's in a worse car for him being ranked lower. He caused 2 of his retirements.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:21 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.

Yea i think both have underperformed. Hulkenberg may not have crashed in Baku, but that looked like one of the weakest performances this year by any driver. He was last excluding the Williams, 25 seconds behind the next car up. Hulkenberg has been solid most of the time but hasn't really done anything special either. And Other than in qualifying, Ricciardo isn't really looking much better.


Fair enough. You're entitled to an opinion. Personally I think it's more likely the Renault isn't as good as we think rather than both of their very good drivers falling off a cliff at the same time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not really a big fan of these driver ratings after each race but looking at the personal lists I'm left wondering why Ricciardo is being rated so low?

Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.

Yea i think both have underperformed. Hulkenberg may not have crashed in Baku, but that looked like one of the weakest performances this year by any driver. He was last excluding the Williams, 25 seconds behind the next car up. Hulkenberg has been solid most of the time but hasn't really done anything special either. And Other than in qualifying, Ricciardo isn't really looking much better.


Fair enough. You're entitled to an opinion. Personally I think it's more likely the Renault isn't as good as we think rather than both of their very good drivers falling off a cliff at the same time.

Yes. I think it is a bit of both. it isn't a good car and sometimes, both have been very good. But Ricciardo's 2 worst mistakes were surly not down to the car. Although saying that, maybe he expected to be able to lunge down the inside of Kvyat like he sometimes could on drivers in the Red Bull. The following incident a few seconds later was very silly though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:34 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well I think Hulkenberg hasn't been very good this season, but on race day, often hasn't looks much worse than Ricciardo. It is a bit harsh of me to keep bringing up the first race, but with that and what Ricciardo did in Baku, that drops him several more places for me

at one point in his career, he went over a full year without collective any penalty points and keeping out of trouble. He just isn't the same driver any more IMO. But it may change.


Well you've put Hulkenberg really low as well.

TBF I questioned by own low ranking of the Renault drivers.

Typical scenario of them + car under delivering on expectations I think. Same for Mclaren but in reverse.

Yea i think both have underperformed. Hulkenberg may not have crashed in Baku, but that looked like one of the weakest performances this year by any driver. He was last excluding the Williams, 25 seconds behind the next car up. Hulkenberg has been solid most of the time but hasn't really done anything special either. And Other than in qualifying, Ricciardo isn't really looking much better.


Fair enough. You're entitled to an opinion. Personally I think it's more likely the Renault isn't as good as we think rather than both of their very good drivers falling off a cliff at the same time.

Yes. I think it is a bit of both. it isn't a good car and sometimes, both have been very good. But Ricciardo's 2 worst mistakes were surly not down to the car. Although saying that, maybe he expected to be able to lunge down the inside of Kvyat like he sometimes could on drivers in the Red Bull. The following incident a few seconds later was very silly though.


Yes the mistakes are the reason I rated Ricciardo a fair bit lower than his usual position in the pecking order.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:03 pm 
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I'd have Vettel and Ricciardo close, as I don't think Ricciardo has been any worse than Vettel. If Leclerc is top 5 then it's surely not been a strong year for driver perfomances so far in the 2019 season. Having said that, I do think he's now on his way to producing consistent top level performance, but I need to see more races of quality from him. Generally I've been unimpressed with Ferrari and their drivers on the balance of the season thus far. Vettel is probably getting more credit than he deserves for outperforming a teammate who has been prematurely hoisted onto a pedestal, who is now only just starting to get into stride -- and Vettel is also having an awful lot of biased help from his team. Both he and Ricciardo have made some silly errors but Ricciardo has been besting a proven "top of the midfield" commodity in Hulkenberg and is showing to me that he's clearly above the likes of Hulk and Perez, who often get bundled together. Frankly, I think his performance would also be besting Vettel right now were he at Ferrari. Don't know though, of course.

Max isn't making many errors but he's still not as clean as Hamilton, nor does he have the risk-reward balance quite as finely tuned. Overall, I still think Bottas has been one of the top performers, and is probably the third best on the grid on form currently. Ultimately, he's been delivering the goods and sometimes looks sluggish by virtue of Hamilton's race pace, which is probably his strongest card these days.

Max is clearly demonstrating the most crushing superiority over his team-mate right now, though I find it hard to judge because Gasly has, at least to me, been clearly one of the worst drivers on the grid. Nonetheless, Max has been in a different league to the Ferrari drivers and only Hamilton is really on his sort of level at the moment.


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