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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:15 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
As per a report / article I read, if Vettel does retire after 2019, Ferrari are interested in Bottas & Ricciardo as suitable replacements. If either go, it opens the door for Ocon as well.

First of all I don't see Vettel retiring this year, it's interesting that Alonso is being seen as totally out of the picture. With Ricciardo he's under contract to Renault so I can't see that happening, Renault stopped the Hulk joining Mercedes in 2017. On to Bottas I could see that happening in respect to Bottas himself if they offer him more than the 1 year contracts he's been getting at Mercedes.


According to this article, which seems to be pulling info from the report mentioned above, Ricciardo has a get-out clause in place if Mercedes or Ferrari make him an offer

https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorspor ... 6d6b47ddb6

Still, can’t see Vettel leaving this year anyway.

That is a tasty bit of info if true, especially with Renault not delivering

If I was Ferrari I'd take 2014-2015 Ricciardo without a second thought. Their last two years together though Max exposed him quite a lot. Still, in a proper fast car like Ferrari Dan may be well suited


Did he though?

2017 Ricciardo did him by 32 pts with 1 less retirement while last year he came up 79 pts shy of Verstappen which yeah, on the face of it looks pretty comprehensive, but when you take into account his well documented reliability issues (8 retirements to Verstappen's 3), the protracted & public distraction centering around where he'd be this year as well as, publicly at least, signs that RB were possibly moving more towards Verstappen's side of the garage than his (Baku incident, Horners " He's the kind of guy you can build a team around" comment), then I don't think he did too bad last year & i'd definitely not say that Verstappen really exposed him over the last 2 yrs.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Posts: 7472
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First of all I don't see Vettel retiring this year, it's interesting that Alonso is being seen as totally out of the picture. With Ricciardo he's under contract to Renault so I can't see that happening, Renault stopped the Hulk joining Mercedes in 2017. On to Bottas I could see that happening in respect to Bottas himself if they offer him more than the 1 year contracts he's been getting at Mercedes.


According to this article, which seems to be pulling info from the report mentioned above, Ricciardo has a get-out clause in place if Mercedes or Ferrari make him an offer

https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorspor ... 6d6b47ddb6

Still, can’t see Vettel leaving this year anyway.

That is a tasty bit of info if true, especially with Renault not delivering

If I was Ferrari I'd take 2014-2015 Ricciardo without a second thought. Their last two years together though Max exposed him quite a lot. Still, in a proper fast car like Ferrari Dan may be well suited


Did he though?

2017 Ricciardo did him by 32 pts with 1 less retirement while last year he came up 79 pts shy of Verstappen which yeah, on the face of it looks pretty comprehensive, but when you take into account his well documented reliability issues (8 retirements to Verstappen's 3), the protracted & public distraction centering around where he'd be this year as well as, publicly at least, signs that RB were possibly moving more towards Verstappen's side of the garage than his (Baku incident, Horners " He's the kind of guy you can build a team around" comment), then I don't think he did too bad last year & i'd definitely not say that Verstappen really exposed him over the last 2 yrs.

He exposed him (maybe wrong wording if you like) in a sense that everyone thought that Ric was the bees knees after beating Vettel. He couldn't do that with a young Max that was still in his first steps in F1 and still very erratic. In their spell together it was obvious that once Max stopped the silly mistakes he had the measure of Dan in the latter part.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:14 pm 
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typaH4okc wrote:
j man wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
j man wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'm going to put something out there. I think Red Bull should attempt to snap up Norris. I'm assuming bridges are burned with Carlos Sainz and there is a distinct possibility that Max will leave if Red bull fail to provide a championship-capable car by next season. Red Bull's other drivers in their stable don't seem to be that special so a departure by Max would leave them high and dry at the moment. I think Lando, at just 19, would give them both an outstanding second driver to team with Max and a potential #1 should Max choose to go elsewhere.

The other option is to snap up one of the Mercedes drivers. Assuming Hamilton is going nowhere, next year Merc effectively have three drivers (Bottas, Ocon, Russell) for two seats (one each at Merc and Williams). One of them is going to have to leave the Mercedes umbrella at the end of the season to preserve their career, and any one of them would be a good shout for the second RBR seat.

Not a bad call but I don't know about Max and Ocon as teammates (not after Brazil last year). Bottas is a bit old by conventional RBR standards and I'd imagine that they would prefer to take their chances with Albon or Kvyat.

A fair point about Ocon, but I just don't see Albon or Kvyat being much of an improvement. Kvyat is already a known quantity at that level and he didn't match up too well against Ricciardo, as well as making mistakes under pressure. And then Albon hasn't looked any better than Kvyat this year. RBR need to admit that their driver stable is not good enough and they need to look externally; picking one of Albon, Kvyat or Gasly feels like picking the least worst option rather than the right option.

I did hear rumours of Hulkenberg being linked with the RBR seat for next year. A good move for both parties if you ask me.


Kvyat matched up quite well against Ricciardo.

Not really in out and out speed, in 2016 Kvyat was getting thrashed this being one of the reasons why he got dropped.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
j man wrote:
A fair point about Ocon, but I just don't see Albon or Kvyat being much of an improvement. Kvyat is already a known quantity at that level and he didn't match up too well against Ricciardo, as well as making mistakes under pressure. And then Albon hasn't looked any better than Kvyat this year. RBR need to admit that their driver stable is not good enough and they need to look externally; picking one of Albon, Kvyat or Gasly feels like picking the least worst option rather than the right option.

I did hear rumours of Hulkenberg being linked with the RBR seat for next year. A good move for both parties if you ask me.


Kvyat matched up quite well against Ricciardo.

Not really in out and out speed, in 2016 Kvyat was getting thrashed this being one of the reasons why he got dropped.


I'm not saying Kvyat matched him in performance, but he was close and they were a good match up. In 2016 they only had 4 races together, Kvyat got screwed in quali in the first 2 and scored a podium in the 3rd, so her was quite far from getting thrashed. If Gasly was performing anywhere near where Kvyat was in 2015 we wouldn't be having this conversation.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:32 pm 
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typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
j man wrote:
A fair point about Ocon, but I just don't see Albon or Kvyat being much of an improvement. Kvyat is already a known quantity at that level and he didn't match up too well against Ricciardo, as well as making mistakes under pressure. And then Albon hasn't looked any better than Kvyat this year. RBR need to admit that their driver stable is not good enough and they need to look externally; picking one of Albon, Kvyat or Gasly feels like picking the least worst option rather than the right option.

I did hear rumours of Hulkenberg being linked with the RBR seat for next year. A good move for both parties if you ask me.


Kvyat matched up quite well against Ricciardo.

Not really in out and out speed, in 2016 Kvyat was getting thrashed this being one of the reasons why he got dropped.


I'm not saying Kvyat matched him in performance, but he was close and they were a good match up. In 2016 they only had 4 races together, Kvyat got screwed in quali in the first 2 and scored a podium in the 3rd, so her was quite far from getting thrashed. If Gasly was performing anywhere near where Kvyat was in 2015 we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I thought he finished ahead of Ric in points in 2015, with one more retirement than Ric. And in 2016 he got dropped after he hit Vettel, not because he didn't match Ric. He had recorded a podium just the race before if I'm not mistaken.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:53 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
j man wrote:
A fair point about Ocon, but I just don't see Albon or Kvyat being much of an improvement. Kvyat is already a known quantity at that level and he didn't match up too well against Ricciardo, as well as making mistakes under pressure. And then Albon hasn't looked any better than Kvyat this year. RBR need to admit that their driver stable is not good enough and they need to look externally; picking one of Albon, Kvyat or Gasly feels like picking the least worst option rather than the right option.

I did hear rumours of Hulkenberg being linked with the RBR seat for next year. A good move for both parties if you ask me.


Kvyat matched up quite well against Ricciardo.

Not really in out and out speed, in 2016 Kvyat was getting thrashed this being one of the reasons why he got dropped.


I'm not saying Kvyat matched him in performance, but he was close and they were a good match up. In 2016 they only had 4 races together, Kvyat got screwed in quali in the first 2 and scored a podium in the 3rd, so her was quite far from getting thrashed. If Gasly was performing anywhere near where Kvyat was in 2015 we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I thought he finished ahead of Ric in points in 2015, with one more retirement than Ric. And in 2016 he got dropped after he hit Vettel, not because he didn't match Ric. He had recorded a podium just the race before if I'm not mistaken.

You have to look at where they retired from. Daniel was MUCH better than Kvyat in 2015-2016 but reliability and circumstances make the points look totally unrepresentative. It can happen in F1. It's similar to looking at Hamilton and Button in 2012. The points suggest it was close, with Lewis being just 2 points ahead at the end of the season but if you watched that season, you would know that Button was nowhere near Hamilton's level of performance all year.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:11 am 
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Posts: 337
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First of all I don't see Vettel retiring this year, it's interesting that Alonso is being seen as totally out of the picture. With Ricciardo he's under contract to Renault so I can't see that happening, Renault stopped the Hulk joining Mercedes in 2017. On to Bottas I could see that happening in respect to Bottas himself if they offer him more than the 1 year contracts he's been getting at Mercedes.


According to this article, which seems to be pulling info from the report mentioned above, Ricciardo has a get-out clause in place if Mercedes or Ferrari make him an offer

https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorspor ... 6d6b47ddb6

Still, can’t see Vettel leaving this year anyway.

That is a tasty bit of info if true, especially with Renault not delivering

If I was Ferrari I'd take 2014-2015 Ricciardo without a second thought. Their last two years together though Max exposed him quite a lot. Still, in a proper fast car like Ferrari Dan may be well suited


Did he though?

2017 Ricciardo did him by 32 pts with 1 less retirement while last year he came up 79 pts shy of Verstappen which yeah, on the face of it looks pretty comprehensive, but when you take into account his well documented reliability issues (8 retirements to Verstappen's 3), the protracted & public distraction centering around where he'd be this year as well as, publicly at least, signs that RB were possibly moving more towards Verstappen's side of the garage than his (Baku incident, Horners " He's the kind of guy you can build a team around" comment), then I don't think he did too bad last year & i'd definitely not say that Verstappen really exposed him over the last 2 yrs.


All fair points... but one of main ones missed is just how good Verstappen is. Ask Gasly perhaps. Ricciardo and Verstappen in one team was just something else.... pity they did no have a car of a higher level. Actually scrap that. Just as well they did not have a car with a Ferrari or Mercedes level engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:15 am 
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typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
j man wrote:
A fair point about Ocon, but I just don't see Albon or Kvyat being much of an improvement. Kvyat is already a known quantity at that level and he didn't match up too well against Ricciardo, as well as making mistakes under pressure. And then Albon hasn't looked any better than Kvyat this year. RBR need to admit that their driver stable is not good enough and they need to look externally; picking one of Albon, Kvyat or Gasly feels like picking the least worst option rather than the right option.

I did hear rumours of Hulkenberg being linked with the RBR seat for next year. A good move for both parties if you ask me.


Kvyat matched up quite well against Ricciardo.

Not really in out and out speed, in 2016 Kvyat was getting thrashed this being one of the reasons why he got dropped.


I'm not saying Kvyat matched him in performance, but he was close and they were a good match up. In 2016 they only had 4 races together, Kvyat got screwed in quali in the first 2 and scored a podium in the 3rd, so her was quite far from getting thrashed. If Gasly was performing anywhere near where Kvyat was in 2015 we wouldn't be having this conversation.

In 2016 it was exactly the same scenario albeit after only 4 races so a bit harsh, the podium was lucky Kvyat himself triggered of a series of events that lead to faster cars crashing and not finishing were they should have including Ricciardo himself who if he had avoided all the trouble would have won the race.

However it's true what you said about 2015 Kvyat did much better than what Gasly is presently doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:28 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:

Kvyat matched up quite well against Ricciardo.

Not really in out and out speed, in 2016 Kvyat was getting thrashed this being one of the reasons why he got dropped.


I'm not saying Kvyat matched him in performance, but he was close and they were a good match up. In 2016 they only had 4 races together, Kvyat got screwed in quali in the first 2 and scored a podium in the 3rd, so her was quite far from getting thrashed. If Gasly was performing anywhere near where Kvyat was in 2015 we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I thought he finished ahead of Ric in points in 2015, with one more retirement than Ric. And in 2016 he got dropped after he hit Vettel, not because he didn't match Ric. He had recorded a podium just the race before if I'm not mistaken.

You have to look at where they retired from. Daniel was MUCH better than Kvyat in 2015-2016 but reliability and circumstances make the points look totally unrepresentative. It can happen in F1. It's similar to looking at Hamilton and Button in 2012. The points suggest it was close, with Lewis being just 2 points ahead at the end of the season but if you watched that season, you would know that Button was nowhere near Hamilton's level of performance all year.

Well yeah, I'm not denying that, nor am I saying that Kvyat is better then Dan, that's laughable when considering their outright speed. Just that I do not think that he was dropped in 2016 because he wasn't performing as claimed above; he finished ahead in points the first year (and I think he was actually ahead when both finished) and the second year he was dropped after the 4th round as he ruined Vettel's and Dan's races, although I always thought they were after an excuse to promote Max to the big team. Again, not claiming that he was better than Dan, merely that he wasn't so bad that they dropped him because of performance.

Hell, if they dropped him because of his performance then they should have sent Gasly home already


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:23 am 
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iano wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
If I was Ferrari I'd take 2014-2015 Ricciardo without a second thought. Their last two years together though Max exposed him quite a lot. Still, in a proper fast car like Ferrari Dan may be well suited


Did he though?

2017 Ricciardo did him by 32 pts with 1 less retirement while last year he came up 79 pts shy of Verstappen which yeah, on the face of it looks pretty comprehensive, but when you take into account his well documented reliability issues (8 retirements to Verstappen's 3), the protracted & public distraction centering around where he'd be this year as well as, publicly at least, signs that RB were possibly moving more towards Verstappen's side of the garage than his (Baku incident, Horners " He's the kind of guy you can build a team around" comment), then I don't think he did too bad last year & i'd definitely not say that Verstappen really exposed him over the last 2 yrs.


All fair points... but one of main ones missed is just how good Verstappen is. Ask Gasly perhaps. Ricciardo and Verstappen in one team was just something else.... pity they did no have a car of a higher level. Actually scrap that. Just as well they did not have a car with a Ferrari or Mercedes level engine.


Well that's the question isn't it? Just how good is Max Verstappen?

Let me play devils advocate here.

It's too difficult to get a gauge on his performance level this year as Ghasly's performing so badly. I believe last years results could be corrupted due to the reasons I stated above & the year before that Ricciardo beat him.

His drive last week was excellent but to be honest I don't think it was any better than Ricciardo's drive in China lat year. Circumstances conspired to help Verstappen last weekend just as they did for Ricciardo.

I could be accused for having a bit of anti-Verstappen bias & probably with some justification. He, along with Red Bull, his old man & his sycophants at Sky, Liberty & in the FIA, irritate me, but I read all the same stuff about Vettel in his younger days, including some here saying he was the G.O.A.T sometime around his 2nd championship. I thought a lot of it was fanboyism & hyperbole back then &, while I do believe Verstappen may well end up a better driver than Vettel, i'm not convinced he's as good as some are suggesting......... just yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:24 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
iano wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
If I was Ferrari I'd take 2014-2015 Ricciardo without a second thought. Their last two years together though Max exposed him quite a lot. Still, in a proper fast car like Ferrari Dan may be well suited


Did he though?

2017 Ricciardo did him by 32 pts with 1 less retirement while last year he came up 79 pts shy of Verstappen which yeah, on the face of it looks pretty comprehensive, but when you take into account his well documented reliability issues (8 retirements to Verstappen's 3), the protracted & public distraction centering around where he'd be this year as well as, publicly at least, signs that RB were possibly moving more towards Verstappen's side of the garage than his (Baku incident, Horners " He's the kind of guy you can build a team around" comment), then I don't think he did too bad last year & i'd definitely not say that Verstappen really exposed him over the last 2 yrs.


All fair points... but one of main ones missed is just how good Verstappen is. Ask Gasly perhaps. Ricciardo and Verstappen in one team was just something else.... pity they did no have a car of a higher level. Actually scrap that. Just as well they did not have a car with a Ferrari or Mercedes level engine.


Well that's the question isn't it? Just how good is Max Verstappen?

Let me play devils advocate here.

It's too difficult to get a gauge on his performance level this year as Ghasly's performing so badly. I believe last years results could be corrupted due to the reasons I stated above & the year before that Ricciardo beat him.

His drive last week was excellent but to be honest I don't think it was any better than Ricciardo's drive in China lat year. Circumstances conspired to help Verstappen last weekend just as they did for Ricciardo.

I could be accused for having a bit of anti-Verstappen bias & probably with some justification. He, along with Red Bull, his old man & his sycophants at Sky, Liberty & in the FIA, irritate me, but I read all the same stuff about Vettel in his younger days, including some here saying he was the G.O.A.T sometime around his 2nd championship. I thought a lot of it was fanboyism & hyperbole back then &, while I do believe Verstappen may well end up a better driver than Vettel, i'm not convinced he's as good as some are suggesting......... just yet.


If he ends up better than Vettel then that's top 10 of all time territory. I don't think many are making claims he's better than that yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:16 pm 
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Here's one for the rumour mill - Fernando Alonso has officially left McLaren!
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news ... ebacle?amp

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:33 pm 
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Please put Alonso in the second Red Bull seat!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:43 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Please put Alonso in the second Red Bull seat!!!


Silly season prediction:
    Max to Merc to battle Hamilton next season
    Vettel returns to Red Bull, Horner says F it and brings in Alonso to partner him
    Ferrari run with Leclerc and bring in Ricciardo

**All the intra-team battling opens the door for a massively competitive McLaren to come from behind and steal the 2020 constructors

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:28 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Here's one for the rumour mill - Fernando Alonso has officially left McLaren!
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news ... ebacle?amp


But... would that actually have any bearing on Alonso's future in F1? I can't imagine McLaren would've stood in his way if Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari had approached him about driving for them next year, and I very much doubt there would be anything in the contract they have (had) that would've prevented him from taking an opportunity if it arose.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:55 pm 
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1 more rumour!
Supposedly Williams will be changing engine supplier from Mercedes to Renault.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/41816/williams-to-ditch-mercedes-engine-in-favour-of-renault/

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:18 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
1 more rumour!
Supposedly Williams will be changing engine supplier from Mercedes to Renault.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/41816/williams-to-ditch-mercedes-engine-in-favour-of-renault/

Alonso announcement wont change anything in F1 most likely (though will impact on next years indy500 at least, will be interesting to see where he ends up for that).

This one might though, Mercedes currently have 2 very promising drivers in Ocon and Russell and no 'in' to find them a seat. They should get seats on talent alone tbh but if that worked Ocon wouldn't be on the sidelines this year. It will be interesting to see where they both end up next year, and I hope they're both on the grid.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:56 am 
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Alonso at Red Bull will never happen. The Japanese are incredible at engineering, but even they wouldn't build a bridge from ash and ember.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:45 am 
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Since ocon is going to be released by merc how about ocon to haas, russell to merc and bottas to renault?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:41 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
1 more rumour!
Supposedly Williams will be changing engine supplier from Mercedes to Renault.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/41816/williams-to-ditch-mercedes-engine-in-favour-of-renault/

Interesting. A few years ago the rest of the grid were tripping over each other trying to secure a Mercedes customer engine deal, while now this would leave them with just Racing Point as their sole customer. It shows how much the engines have converged in performance, and I think it would bring into question the wisdom of changing the engines in 2021.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:27 am 
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spiritone wrote:
Since ocon is going to be released by merc how about ocon to haas, russell to merc and bottas to renault?


Why would Mercedes take Russell when Ocon is available?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:21 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Since ocon is going to be released by merc how about ocon to haas, russell to merc and bottas to renault?

Why would Mercedes take Russell when Ocon is available?

Because Russel might very well be better? They know Ocon is roughly at Perez's level. It's possible they don't feel that level is high enough, and suspect Russel is better.

They have a lot of data on both drivers at this point, so if they took Russel over Ocon that's the only reason I can see. Otherwise, Ocon is above Russel in the presumed order of preference.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:06 am 
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Alonso and Mclaren have both rubbished the rumours about them splitting:





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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:13 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Alonso and Mclaren have both rubbished the rumours about them splitting

You'd wonder how a publication could so confidently state an event has occurred without it having happened at all. Am I right in remembering that "Mattiacci fired Alonso" story came from the same magazine?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:16 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Here's one for the rumour mill - Fernando Alonso has officially left McLaren!
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news ... ebacle?amp


But... would that actually have any bearing on Alonso's future in F1? I can't imagine McLaren would've stood in his way if Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari had approached him about driving for them next year, and I very much doubt there would be anything in the contract they have (had) that would've prevented him from taking an opportunity if it arose.

What had set alarm bells off was all these stories about Vettel retiring/moving to Red Bull and Ferrari hiring Alonso to replace him. If there was any substance to any of those stories, at some point along the timeline Alonso would have to dissolve his relationship with McLaren

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Since ocon is going to be released by merc how about ocon to haas, russell to merc and bottas to renault?

Why would Mercedes take Russell when Ocon is available?

Because Russel might very well be better? They know Ocon is roughly at Perez's level. It's possible they don't feel that level is high enough, and suspect Russel is better.

They have a lot of data on both drivers at this point, so if they took Russel over Ocon that's the only reason I can see. Otherwise, Ocon is above Russel in the presumed order of preference.


Mate, IMO when Bottas was in Williams, he was close to Perez's level or a little worse. No doubt, Williams was a better car in 2014 but before joining Williams, did You see Bottas much a better driver than Perez?

If Ocon is on Perez's level, it's a compliment as in the past few years, Perez has been the best of the rest after the top 3 teams drivers. Ocon has 1 more advantage over Russell to some extent - Ocon has extensive experience in Mercedes' simulator as he spends a lot of time during the time between 2 grand prix.

Russell no doubt has a future at Mercedes as well. It all depends what Mercedes does with Bottas. If he stays, Mercedes may have to sever ties with Ocon so he could join any other team. If Bottas goes, no doubt Mercedes will give Ocon the 2nd seat.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:38 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
1 more rumour!
Supposedly Williams will be changing engine supplier from Mercedes to Renault.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/41816/williams-to-ditch-mercedes-engine-in-favour-of-renault/


I called that a while back, only I was suggesting Mclaren and Williams will do an engine swap


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:31 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Alonso and Mclaren have both rubbished the rumours about them splitting:



What is most revealing in that tweet is that it would appear that Spanish April Fools day is on December 28th.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Alonso and Mclaren have both rubbished the rumours about them splitting:



What is most revealing in that tweet is that it would appear that Spanish April Fools day is on December 28th.

:lol: I had to look that one up too but apparently it's called day of the holy innocents and roughly the Spanish equivalent to April fools.

https://www.spain.info/en_GB/que-quiere ... entes.html


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:50 pm 
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Is Williams ditching Mercedes or is Mercedes ditching Williams? I seriously doubt that Mercedes-Benz engines are one of the reasons Williams has the slowest cars. Maybe Williams is ditching Mercedes engines because they want an engine partner that they can blame for their miserable performance?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:08 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Exediron wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Since ocon is going to be released by merc how about ocon to haas, russell to merc and bottas to renault?

Why would Mercedes take Russell when Ocon is available?

Because Russel might very well be better? They know Ocon is roughly at Perez's level. It's possible they don't feel that level is high enough, and suspect Russel is better.

They have a lot of data on both drivers at this point, so if they took Russel over Ocon that's the only reason I can see. Otherwise, Ocon is above Russel in the presumed order of preference.


Mate, IMO when Bottas was in Williams, he was close to Perez's level or a little worse. No doubt, Williams was a better car in 2014 but before joining Williams, did You see Bottas much a better driver than Perez?

If Ocon is on Perez's level, it's a compliment as in the past few years, Perez has been the best of the rest after the top 3 teams drivers. Ocon has 1 more advantage over Russell to some extent - Ocon has extensive experience in Mercedes' simulator as he spends a lot of time during the time between 2 grand prix.

Russell no doubt has a future at Mercedes as well. It all depends what Mercedes does with Bottas. If he stays, Mercedes may have to sever ties with Ocon so he could join any other team. If Bottas goes, no doubt Mercedes will give Ocon the 2nd seat.



Wow. The likes of Bottas, Perez, Ocon and co. are solid but still essentially 'making up the numbers' type drivers. They are not the Senna's and Schumacher's of this world so all of them are replaceable and disposable.

Ocon has proven that he is not top tier, so if he never makes it back to F1, there is no loss there. The same with Albon, if he was a future top tier driver he would be crushing someone like Kyvat. Russell however could be top tier, maybe Kubica isn't as bad as we all think and it is more that Russell is a superstar that is helping make Kubica look so poor.

It is this line of thinking that made Ron Dennis choose Hamilton in 2007 over a known and experienced quantity in Pedro de la Rosa, who Ron knew was not top tier. Hamilton was an unknown and exciting quantity, he was not the boring and predictable option.

If someone like Verstappen was sitting on the sidelines hoping to make it back into F1, then yes, that would be a travesty if he didn't ever make it back into F1, but then someone with Verstappen's talent never would be on the sidelines, team principals would find a way of giving him a drive. On the rare occasions where unfortunate circumstances align and a true top tier driver is out of a drive for a year, (like Prost in 1992), they can jump back into competitive equipment at the first available opportunity the following season, (Prost got the Williams drive for 1993).

So just because Ocon is out of F1 currently, and he is likely as good as Bottas, and Bottas can sometimes win races in the best equipment, then therefore F1 needs Ocon back. No, F1 needs neither Ocon or Bottas and if Bottas was suddenly out of a drive then he would be quickly forgotten. It may sound harsh, but it's true. Unless you are top tier, then you are easily replaceable. Bottas is forced to play the team game and be a gentleman, because if he doesn't, his a$$ will be out of a drive so quickly his head will spin.

If there is a true top tier driver who is on the sidelines but they still want to race, (Alonso), then fans are desperate for him to get a competitive drive because his return would improve the series. The same when Schumacher couldn't make it back to Ferrari in 2009 due to his motorbike racing accident, that was such a blow not to see him be able to come back that year, and instead we got the hopeless Luca Badoer and the boring and predictable Fisichella in the Ferrari for the last few races.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Simple question for ocon fans. If ocon is so good why has russell done both tests for merc so far?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:54 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Exediron wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Since ocon is going to be released by merc how about ocon to haas, russell to merc and bottas to renault?

Why would Mercedes take Russell when Ocon is available?

Because Russel might very well be better? They know Ocon is roughly at Perez's level. It's possible they don't feel that level is high enough, and suspect Russel is better.

They have a lot of data on both drivers at this point, so if they took Russel over Ocon that's the only reason I can see. Otherwise, Ocon is above Russel in the presumed order of preference.


Mate, IMO when Bottas was in Williams, he was close to Perez's level or a little worse. No doubt, Williams was a better car in 2014 but before joining Williams, did You see Bottas much a better driver than Perez?

If Ocon is on Perez's level, it's a compliment as in the past few years, Perez has been the best of the rest after the top 3 teams drivers. Ocon has 1 more advantage over Russell to some extent - Ocon has extensive experience in Mercedes' simulator as he spends a lot of time during the time between 2 grand prix.

Russell no doubt has a future at Mercedes as well. It all depends what Mercedes does with Bottas. If he stays, Mercedes may have to sever ties with Ocon so he could join any other team. If Bottas goes, no doubt Mercedes will give Ocon the 2nd seat.



Wow. The likes of Bottas, Perez, Ocon and co. are solid but still essentially 'making up the numbers' type drivers. They are not the Senna's and Schumacher's of this world so all of them are replaceable and disposable.

Ocon has proven that he is not top tier, so if he never makes it back to F1, there is no loss there. The same with Albon, if he was a future top tier driver he would be crushing someone like Kyvat. Russell however could be top tier, maybe Kubica isn't as bad as we all think and it is more that Russell is a superstar that is helping make Kubica look so poor.

It is this line of thinking that made Ron Dennis choose Hamilton in 2007 over a known and experienced quantity in Pedro de la Rosa, who Ron knew was not top tier. Hamilton was an unknown and exciting quantity, he was not the boring and predictable option.

If someone like Verstappen was sitting on the sidelines hoping to make it back into F1, then yes, that would be a travesty if he didn't ever make it back into F1, but then someone with Verstappen's talent never would be on the sidelines, team principals would find a way of giving him a drive. On the rare occasions where unfortunate circumstances align and a true top tier driver is out of a drive for a year, (like Prost in 1992), they can jump back into competitive equipment at the first available opportunity the following season, (Prost got the Williams drive for 1993).

So just because Ocon is out of F1 currently, and he is likely as good as Bottas, and Bottas can sometimes win races in the best equipment, then therefore F1 needs Ocon back. No, F1 needs neither Ocon or Bottas and if Bottas was suddenly out of a drive then he would be quickly forgotten. It may sound harsh, but it's true. Unless you are top tier, then you are easily replaceable. Bottas is forced to play the team game and be a gentleman, because if he doesn't, his a$$ will be out of a drive so quickly his head will spin.

If there is a true top tier driver who is on the sidelines but they still want to race, (Alonso), then fans are desperate for him to get a competitive drive because his return would improve the series. The same when Schumacher couldn't make it back to Ferrari in 2009 due to his motorbike racing accident, that was such a blow not to see him be able to come back that year, and instead we got the hopeless Luca Badoer and the boring and predictable Fisichella in the Ferrari for the last few races.


If a driver can match Perez in just their second season I would argue that they have the potential to become top tier. Drivers don't arrive the complete package they do actually improve. I would also argue that the hardest element to improve on was out right speed and Ocon had more of it than Perez.

Regardless of any of that and even if he never improves a driver as good as Perez is far to good to be on the sidelines.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:


Wow. The likes of Bottas, Perez, Ocon and co. are solid but still essentially 'making up the numbers' type drivers. They are not the Senna's and Schumacher's of this world so all of them are replaceable and disposable.

Ocon has proven that he is not top tier, so if he never makes it back to F1, there is no loss there. The same with Albon, if he was a future top tier driver he would be crushing someone like Kyvat. Russell however could be top tier, maybe Kubica isn't as bad as we all think and it is more that Russell is a superstar that is helping make Kubica look so poor.

It is this line of thinking that made Ron Dennis choose Hamilton in 2007 over a known and experienced quantity in Pedro de la Rosa, who Ron knew was not top tier. Hamilton was an unknown and exciting quantity, he was not the boring and predictable option.

If someone like Verstappen was sitting on the sidelines hoping to make it back into F1, then yes, that would be a travesty if he didn't ever make it back into F1, but then someone with Verstappen's talent never would be on the sidelines, team principals would find a way of giving him a drive. On the rare occasions where unfortunate circumstances align and a true top tier driver is out of a drive for a year, (like Prost in 1992), they can jump back into competitive equipment at the first available opportunity the following season, (Prost got the Williams drive for 1993).

So just because Ocon is out of F1 currently, and he is likely as good as Bottas, and Bottas can sometimes win races in the best equipment, then therefore F1 needs Ocon back. No, F1 needs neither Ocon or Bottas and if Bottas was suddenly out of a drive then he would be quickly forgotten. It may sound harsh, but it's true. Unless you are top tier, then you are easily replaceable. Bottas is forced to play the team game and be a gentleman, because if he doesn't, his a$$ will be out of a drive so quickly his head will spin.

If there is a true top tier driver who is on the sidelines but they still want to race, (Alonso), then fans are desperate for him to get a competitive drive because his return would improve the series. The same when Schumacher couldn't make it back to Ferrari in 2009 due to his motorbike racing accident, that was such a blow not to see him be able to come back that year, and instead we got the hopeless Luca Badoer and the boring and predictable Fisichella in the Ferrari for the last few races.


If a driver can match Perez in just their second season I would argue that they have the potential to become top tier. Drivers don't arrive the complete package they do actually improve. I would also argue that the hardest element to improve on was out right speed and Ocon had more of it than Perez.

Regardless of any of that and even if he never improves a driver as good as Perez is far to good to be on the sidelines.


No, top tier drivers do show their class pretty much immediately, there is no 'potential' there, they are already delivering on it. This is why I am already very sceptical of Albon, I think he is too polite and gentlemanly and likely not fast enough as he is not destroying a known quantity in Kyvat who we know is not even at Bottas/Perez level.

For examples of drivers showing their immediate class: Schumacher at Belgium 1991 in his first race, Vettel scored points on his debut for BMW Sauber and was doing great for Torro Rosso including winning a race, Hamilton was matching Alonso, Verstappen looked pretty racey in Melbourne 2015, Alonso was standing out in a 2001 Minardi etc. etc.

Ocon has had what, two full seasons in F1 is it? That must be about 40 races or so, and I can't think of him producing even one stand out performance in that time. That doesn't mean that Ocon is bad, in fact he is likely quite competent, because he never gave me the impression he was out of his depth in any way, but F1 doesn't need additional competent drivers, they are two-a-penny. It does however need as many top tier drivers as possible. So Ocon can bore off as far as I'm concerned.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:43 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Simple question for ocon fans. If ocon is so good why has russell done both tests for merc so far?

I think Merc are looking to help Ocon get a gig with another team (probably Haas) and release him from his duties with them. I think Bottas will be gone after 2020 no matter what he does but I don't see them dropping him for next year unless his performance just falls off a cliff. They will not see Ocon as a potential match for Max or Charles but George is an unknown and they may very well have moved on to him already behind the scenes.


Last edited by sandman1347 on Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:00 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:


Wow. The likes of Bottas, Perez, Ocon and co. are solid but still essentially 'making up the numbers' type drivers. They are not the Senna's and Schumacher's of this world so all of them are replaceable and disposable.

Ocon has proven that he is not top tier, so if he never makes it back to F1, there is no loss there. The same with Albon, if he was a future top tier driver he would be crushing someone like Kyvat. Russell however could be top tier, maybe Kubica isn't as bad as we all think and it is more that Russell is a superstar that is helping make Kubica look so poor.

It is this line of thinking that made Ron Dennis choose Hamilton in 2007 over a known and experienced quantity in Pedro de la Rosa, who Ron knew was not top tier. Hamilton was an unknown and exciting quantity, he was not the boring and predictable option.

If someone like Verstappen was sitting on the sidelines hoping to make it back into F1, then yes, that would be a travesty if he didn't ever make it back into F1, but then someone with Verstappen's talent never would be on the sidelines, team principals would find a way of giving him a drive. On the rare occasions where unfortunate circumstances align and a true top tier driver is out of a drive for a year, (like Prost in 1992), they can jump back into competitive equipment at the first available opportunity the following season, (Prost got the Williams drive for 1993).

So just because Ocon is out of F1 currently, and he is likely as good as Bottas, and Bottas can sometimes win races in the best equipment, then therefore F1 needs Ocon back. No, F1 needs neither Ocon or Bottas and if Bottas was suddenly out of a drive then he would be quickly forgotten. It may sound harsh, but it's true. Unless you are top tier, then you are easily replaceable. Bottas is forced to play the team game and be a gentleman, because if he doesn't, his a$$ will be out of a drive so quickly his head will spin.

If there is a true top tier driver who is on the sidelines but they still want to race, (Alonso), then fans are desperate for him to get a competitive drive because his return would improve the series. The same when Schumacher couldn't make it back to Ferrari in 2009 due to his motorbike racing accident, that was such a blow not to see him be able to come back that year, and instead we got the hopeless Luca Badoer and the boring and predictable Fisichella in the Ferrari for the last few races.


If a driver can match Perez in just their second season I would argue that they have the potential to become top tier. Drivers don't arrive the complete package they do actually improve. I would also argue that the hardest element to improve on was out right speed and Ocon had more of it than Perez.

Regardless of any of that and even if he never improves a driver as good as Perez is far to good to be on the sidelines.


No, top tier drivers do show their class pretty much immediately, there is no 'potential' there, they are already delivering on it. This is why I am already very sceptical of Albon, I think he is too polite and gentlemanly and likely not fast enough as he is not destroying a known quantity in Kyvat who we know is not even at Bottas/Perez level.

For examples of drivers showing their immediate class: Schumacher at Belgium 1991 in his first race, Vettel scored points on his debut for BMW Sauber and was doing great for Torro Rosso including winning a race, Hamilton was matching Alonso, Verstappen looked pretty racey in Melbourne 2015, Alonso was standing out in a 2001 Minardi etc. etc.

Ocon has had what, two full seasons in F1 is it? That must be about 40 races or so, and I can't think of him producing even one stand out performance in that time. That doesn't mean that Ocon is bad, in fact he is likely quite competent, because he never gave me the impression he was out of his depth in any way, but F1 doesn't need additional competent drivers, they are two-a-penny. It does however need as many top tier drivers as possible. So Ocon can bore off as far as I'm concerned.


You don't remember his front row in Spa or Canada 2017 where he nearly got the podium I his 7th F1 race in a midfield car?

I would argue matching Perez in itself is standing out tbh. It's extremely rare for rookie drivers to come in and outscore experienced team mates in there first season. On the current grid only Bottas and Leclerc have done that and they weren't against drivers as good as Perez.

Verstappen is proof of how drivers do improve. Year 1 he was pretty evenly matched to Sainz. Year 2 he was inferior to Ricciardo, year 3 he matched him, year 4 he beat him.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Maybe Williams is ditching Mercedes engines because they want an engine partner that they can blame for their miserable performance?


If switching to Renault loses them a few tenths here and there then that doesn't really mean much when you're seconds off the pace. I recall Russel crashing* the SkyF1 quali lap analysis with Norris in France. Norris asked Russel if he braked into the corner they had just talked about, and Russel replying "oh, we brake into every corner", with Norris visibly surprised.

I imagine Williams isn't overflowing with cash, so if they can get a cheaper engine, with for them negligible less performance, then that could be a net win in their current situation.

*: no pun intended


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:


Wow. The likes of Bottas, Perez, Ocon and co. are solid but still essentially 'making up the numbers' type drivers. They are not the Senna's and Schumacher's of this world so all of them are replaceable and disposable.

Ocon has proven that he is not top tier, so if he never makes it back to F1, there is no loss there. The same with Albon, if he was a future top tier driver he would be crushing someone like Kyvat. Russell however could be top tier, maybe Kubica isn't as bad as we all think and it is more that Russell is a superstar that is helping make Kubica look so poor.

It is this line of thinking that made Ron Dennis choose Hamilton in 2007 over a known and experienced quantity in Pedro de la Rosa, who Ron knew was not top tier. Hamilton was an unknown and exciting quantity, he was not the boring and predictable option.

If someone like Verstappen was sitting on the sidelines hoping to make it back into F1, then yes, that would be a travesty if he didn't ever make it back into F1, but then someone with Verstappen's talent never would be on the sidelines, team principals would find a way of giving him a drive. On the rare occasions where unfortunate circumstances align and a true top tier driver is out of a drive for a year, (like Prost in 1992), they can jump back into competitive equipment at the first available opportunity the following season, (Prost got the Williams drive for 1993).

So just because Ocon is out of F1 currently, and he is likely as good as Bottas, and Bottas can sometimes win races in the best equipment, then therefore F1 needs Ocon back. No, F1 needs neither Ocon or Bottas and if Bottas was suddenly out of a drive then he would be quickly forgotten. It may sound harsh, but it's true. Unless you are top tier, then you are easily replaceable. Bottas is forced to play the team game and be a gentleman, because if he doesn't, his a$$ will be out of a drive so quickly his head will spin.

If there is a true top tier driver who is on the sidelines but they still want to race, (Alonso), then fans are desperate for him to get a competitive drive because his return would improve the series. The same when Schumacher couldn't make it back to Ferrari in 2009 due to his motorbike racing accident, that was such a blow not to see him be able to come back that year, and instead we got the hopeless Luca Badoer and the boring and predictable Fisichella in the Ferrari for the last few races.


If a driver can match Perez in just their second season I would argue that they have the potential to become top tier. Drivers don't arrive the complete package they do actually improve. I would also argue that the hardest element to improve on was out right speed and Ocon had more of it than Perez.

Regardless of any of that and even if he never improves a driver as good as Perez is far to good to be on the sidelines.


No, top tier drivers do show their class pretty much immediately, there is no 'potential' there, they are already delivering on it. This is why I am already very sceptical of Albon, I think he is too polite and gentlemanly and likely not fast enough as he is not destroying a known quantity in Kyvat who we know is not even at Bottas/Perez level.

For examples of drivers showing their immediate class: Schumacher at Belgium 1991 in his first race, Vettel scored points on his debut for BMW Sauber and was doing great for Torro Rosso including winning a race, Hamilton was matching Alonso, Verstappen looked pretty racey in Melbourne 2015, Alonso was standing out in a 2001 Minardi etc. etc.

Ocon has had what, two full seasons in F1 is it? That must be about 40 races or so, and I can't think of him producing even one stand out performance in that time. That doesn't mean that Ocon is bad, in fact he is likely quite competent, because he never gave me the impression he was out of his depth in any way, but F1 doesn't need additional competent drivers, they are two-a-penny. It does however need as many top tier drivers as possible. So Ocon can bore off as far as I'm concerned.


You don't remember his front row in Spa or Canada 2017 where he nearly got the podium I his 7th F1 race in a midfield car?

I would argue matching Perez in itself is standing out tbh. It's extremely rare for rookie drivers to come in and outscore experienced team mates in there first season. On the current grid only Bottas and Leclerc have done that and they weren't against drivers as good as Perez.

Verstappen is proof of how drivers do improve. Year 1 he was pretty evenly matched to Sainz. Year 2 he was inferior to Ricciardo, year 3 he matched him, year 4 he beat him.



No, I don't remember the front row starts but that was probably because he didn't do anything special to turn them into results, not that those qualifying results were not decent in and of themselves of course. However I remember Barrichello getting pole in a Jordan at Belgium 1994 and Fisichella getting pole in Austria 1998, so the odd shock with a driver qualifying uncharacteristically high can happen, but they never seem to convert the good qualifying into a good result etc. And remember that Fisichella and Barrichello weren't bad drivers, they were very competent and Ocon likely is too, but what we can safely say about Ocon is that he is not top tier, so he is not needed anymore. We can be 99.9% sure that he is not top tier, and that is more than enough certainty.

There are other drivers in F1 history that were competent but weren't able to carve out long careers in the sport for one reason or another, it happens and is not a great loss to the sport when it does happen, so if Ocon is the latest 'unlucky' driver that loses his chance to become the next Hulkenberg/Perez F1 journeyman then it is no great shame. Johnny Herbert carved out a fairly lengthy career as an F1 journeyman. Were there other drivers that were slightly better than him and slightly worse than him whose F1 careers were cut short in the late 80's and early 90's and they unluckily missed out on being able to fulfill a journeyman career in the same vein as Johnny? Almost certainly there were but we do not shed a tear for them now and we did not shed a tear for them back then. They were the Ocon's back in the day and life goes on, not everyone can get what they want but the best performers, (the top tier guys), always do get that long career in the sport. Someone like Anthony Davidson was probably a competent driver that if circumstances were different he could have had a long journeyman career in F1, but he got unlucky and so as a result only got a handful of races in poor equipment and was eventually binned by the sport. However he had enough opportunity to demonstrate whether he was top tier or not, and he clearly wasn't.

Back to Ocon, the 'matching Perez' argument just adds more credence to him being competent which I am not disputing. A quick look at the points and qualifying match ups though, and Perez outscored him for points quite comfortably and qualifying was quite close over the two years combined. At best he's as good as Perez but he could be a bit worse than him. That isn't a great showing if you are hoping to convince team principals that you are an elite driver that just has to be a part of the sport.

All drivers improve so Verstappen is proof of nothing. He showed flashes of top tier greatness from the start and was more like a rough diamond that needed to pick up experience to better hone his technique. He beat Sainz in 2015 fair and square, he scored a win in his first race at Red Bull and he was beaten but not outclassed by Dan in 2016, and by 2017 and 2018 he was the quicker driver.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm 
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Posts: 43
Lord Crc wrote:
Todd wrote:
Maybe Williams is ditching Mercedes engines because they want an engine partner that they can blame for their miserable performance?


If switching to Renault loses them a few tenths here and there then that doesn't really mean much when you're seconds off the pace. I recall Russel crashing* the SkyF1 quali lap analysis with Norris in France. Norris asked Russel if he braked into the corner they had just talked about, and Russel replying "oh, we brake into every corner", with Norris visibly surprised.

I imagine Williams isn't overflowing with cash, so if they can get a cheaper engine, with for them negligible less performance, then that could be a net win in their current situation.

*: no pun intended


I've been attempting a deep dive into Williams F1's financials. Yowza. One thing that is clear is that they employed over 800 people last year to develop and race their uncompetitive cars in 2018.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:33 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:


Wow. The likes of Bottas, Perez, Ocon and co. are solid but still essentially 'making up the numbers' type drivers. They are not the Senna's and Schumacher's of this world so all of them are replaceable and disposable.

Ocon has proven that he is not top tier, so if he never makes it back to F1, there is no loss there. The same with Albon, if he was a future top tier driver he would be crushing someone like Kyvat. Russell however could be top tier, maybe Kubica isn't as bad as we all think and it is more that Russell is a superstar that is helping make Kubica look so poor.

It is this line of thinking that made Ron Dennis choose Hamilton in 2007 over a known and experienced quantity in Pedro de la Rosa, who Ron knew was not top tier. Hamilton was an unknown and exciting quantity, he was not the boring and predictable option.

If someone like Verstappen was sitting on the sidelines hoping to make it back into F1, then yes, that would be a travesty if he didn't ever make it back into F1, but then someone with Verstappen's talent never would be on the sidelines, team principals would find a way of giving him a drive. On the rare occasions where unfortunate circumstances align and a true top tier driver is out of a drive for a year, (like Prost in 1992), they can jump back into competitive equipment at the first available opportunity the following season, (Prost got the Williams drive for 1993).

So just because Ocon is out of F1 currently, and he is likely as good as Bottas, and Bottas can sometimes win races in the best equipment, then therefore F1 needs Ocon back. No, F1 needs neither Ocon or Bottas and if Bottas was suddenly out of a drive then he would be quickly forgotten. It may sound harsh, but it's true. Unless you are top tier, then you are easily replaceable. Bottas is forced to play the team game and be a gentleman, because if he doesn't, his a$$ will be out of a drive so quickly his head will spin.

If there is a true top tier driver who is on the sidelines but they still want to race, (Alonso), then fans are desperate for him to get a competitive drive because his return would improve the series. The same when Schumacher couldn't make it back to Ferrari in 2009 due to his motorbike racing accident, that was such a blow not to see him be able to come back that year, and instead we got the hopeless Luca Badoer and the boring and predictable Fisichella in the Ferrari for the last few races.


If a driver can match Perez in just their second season I would argue that they have the potential to become top tier. Drivers don't arrive the complete package they do actually improve. I would also argue that the hardest element to improve on was out right speed and Ocon had more of it than Perez.

Regardless of any of that and even if he never improves a driver as good as Perez is far to good to be on the sidelines.


No, top tier drivers do show their class pretty much immediately, there is no 'potential' there, they are already delivering on it. This is why I am already very sceptical of Albon, I think he is too polite and gentlemanly and likely not fast enough as he is not destroying a known quantity in Kyvat who we know is not even at Bottas/Perez level.

For examples of drivers showing their immediate class: Schumacher at Belgium 1991 in his first race, Vettel scored points on his debut for BMW Sauber and was doing great for Torro Rosso including winning a race, Hamilton was matching Alonso, Verstappen looked pretty racey in Melbourne 2015, Alonso was standing out in a 2001 Minardi etc. etc.

Ocon has had what, two full seasons in F1 is it? That must be about 40 races or so, and I can't think of him producing even one stand out performance in that time. That doesn't mean that Ocon is bad, in fact he is likely quite competent, because he never gave me the impression he was out of his depth in any way, but F1 doesn't need additional competent drivers, they are two-a-penny. It does however need as many top tier drivers as possible. So Ocon can bore off as far as I'm concerned.


You don't remember his front row in Spa or Canada 2017 where he nearly got the podium I his 7th F1 race in a midfield car?

I would argue matching Perez in itself is standing out tbh. It's extremely rare for rookie drivers to come in and outscore experienced team mates in there first season. On the current grid only Bottas and Leclerc have done that and they weren't against drivers as good as Perez.

Verstappen is proof of how drivers do improve. Year 1 he was pretty evenly matched to Sainz. Year 2 he was inferior to Ricciardo, year 3 he matched him, year 4 he beat him.



No, I don't remember the front row starts but that was probably because he didn't do anything special to turn them into results, not that those qualifying results were not decent in and of themselves of course. However I remember Barrichello getting pole in a Jordan at Belgium 1994 and Fisichella getting pole in Austria 1998, so the odd shock with a driver qualifying uncharacteristically high can happen, but they never seem to convert the good qualifying into a good result etc. And remember that Fisichella and Barrichello weren't bad drivers, they were very competent and Ocon likely is too, but what we can safely say about Ocon is that he is not top tier, so he is not needed anymore. We can be 99.9% sure that he is not top tier, and that is more than enough certainty.

There are other drivers in F1 history that were competent but weren't able to carve out long careers in the sport for one reason or another, it happens and is not a great loss to the sport when it does happen, so if Ocon is the latest 'unlucky' driver that loses his chance to become the next Hulkenberg/Perez F1 journeyman then it is no great shame. Johnny Herbert carved out a fairly lengthy career as an F1 journeyman. Were there other drivers that were slightly better than him and slightly worse than him whose F1 careers were cut short in the late 80's and early 90's and they unluckily missed out on being able to fulfill a journeyman career in the same vein as Johnny? Almost certainly there were but we do not shed a tear for them now and we did not shed a tear for them back then. They were the Ocon's back in the day and life goes on, not everyone can get what they want but the best performers, (the top tier guys), always do get that long career in the sport. Someone like Anthony Davidson was probably a competent driver that if circumstances were different he could have had a long journeyman career in F1, but he got unlucky and so as a result only got a handful of races in poor equipment and was eventually binned by the sport. However he had enough opportunity to demonstrate whether he was top tier or not, and he clearly wasn't.

Back to Ocon, the 'matching Perez' argument just adds more credence to him being competent which I am not disputing. A quick look at the points and qualifying match ups though, and Perez outscored him for points quite comfortably and qualifying was quite close over the two years combined. At best he's as good as Perez but he could be a bit worse than him. That isn't a great showing if you are hoping to convince team principals that you are an elite driver that just has to be a part of the sport.

All drivers improve so Verstappen is proof of nothing. He showed flashes of top tier greatness from the start and was more like a rough diamond that needed to pick up experience to better hone his technique. He beat Sainz in 2015 fair and square, he scored a win in his first race at Red Bull and he was beaten but not outclassed by Dan in 2016, and by 2017 and 2018 he was the quicker driver.


Basically you should've just wrote "I don't count anything good that Ocon does but overall he only matched Perez"

It would have saved you a lot of time.

You say all drivers improve so that would make Ocon likely to develop to about Button level at worst? Sounds like someone that should be in F1 to me.


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