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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:08 am 
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Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:06 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.


Maybe it's just me but i'm not really seeing it.

Yeah sure Ricciardo's doing the job in quali, but race? Mmmmmm, not sure.

Only 5 pts separating them near the 1/2 way mark. Hulkenberg had to obey team orders in Canada after some pretty thoughtless driving by Ricciardo destroyed his tyres.

Quali aside, I think Hulkenberg has held his own against Ricciardo on race pace & considering where he's been starting in comparison to Ricciardo, i'd not necessarily disagree if someone wanted to argue Hulkenberg was driving as well as Ricciardo...... or maybe better.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:54 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.


Maybe it's just me but i'm not really seeing it.

Yeah sure Ricciardo's doing the job in quali, but race? Mmmmmm, not sure.

Only 5 pts separating them near the 1/2 way mark. Hulkenberg had to obey team orders in Canada after some pretty thoughtless driving by Ricciardo destroyed his tyres.

Quali aside, I think Hulkenberg has held his own against Ricciardo on race pace & considering where he's been starting in comparison to Ricciardo, i'd not necessarily disagree if someone wanted to argue Hulkenberg was driving as well as Ricciardo...... or maybe better.


Ricciardo has made more mistakes but is almost always a shade faster.

Don't forget as well that drivers tend to take a while to settle into a new team. I would expect the gap between them to start extending as we go forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:17 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.


Maybe it's just me but i'm not really seeing it.

Yeah sure Ricciardo's doing the job in quali, but race? Mmmmmm, not sure.

Only 5 pts separating them near the 1/2 way mark. Hulkenberg had to obey team orders in Canada after some pretty thoughtless driving by Ricciardo destroyed his tyres.

Quali aside, I think Hulkenberg has held his own against Ricciardo on race pace & considering where he's been starting in comparison to Ricciardo, i'd not necessarily disagree if someone wanted to argue Hulkenberg was driving as well as Ricciardo...... or maybe better.


Montreal was essentially because Ricciardo had been fighting battles that Hulkenberg hadn't been fast enough to get into. Had Daniel just let Bottas and Verstappen past without a fight then he'd have finished miles and miles up the road but without the positive PR of a Reanult battling the top guys. Without a silly mistake in Baku and overly aggressive overtaking in France, that point difference would be bigger.

Hulkenberg is very dependable, but it's pretty clear that Ricciardo has more pace generally.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:17 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.

Yeah I'd go along with that, his stock was only going to go down if he had stayed at Red Bull, the gamble was that he had to beat the Hulk and he is doing that, I think presently you'd have to see him as the third best driver behind Hamilton and Verstappen so he's well placed for 2021 if either Hamilton or Vettel decide to retire, in particular Vettel.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


I agree with you. I think he is more emotionally invested in Ocon than he ever was in Bottas.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:12 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?


He was extended at a point when Ocon had a drive at Renault. It made sense for everyone to keep Bottas at that time.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:52 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.


Maybe it's just me but i'm not really seeing it.

Yeah sure Ricciardo's doing the job in quali, but race? Mmmmmm, not sure.

Only 5 pts separating them near the 1/2 way mark. Hulkenberg had to obey team orders in Canada after some pretty thoughtless driving by Ricciardo destroyed his tyres.

Quali aside, I think Hulkenberg has held his own against Ricciardo on race pace & considering where he's been starting in comparison to Ricciardo, i'd not necessarily disagree if someone wanted to argue Hulkenberg was driving as well as Ricciardo...... or maybe better.


Montreal was essentially because Ricciardo had been fighting battles that Hulkenberg hadn't been fast enough to get into. Had Daniel just let Bottas and Verstappen past without a fight then he'd have finished miles and miles up the road but without the positive PR of a Reanult battling the top guys. Without a silly mistake in Baku and overly aggressive overtaking in France, that point difference would be bigger.

Hulkenberg is very dependable, but it's pretty clear that Ricciardo has more pace generally.

For me it's similar to Hamilton vs Button back a few years ago. The points are artificially close because one guy is fighting battles out of his weight class and taking more risks while the other guy is driving within the limits of the car and staying out of trouble. In terms of ability, it's very clear that Daniel has more.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?


He was extended at a point when Ocon had a drive at Renault. It made sense for everyone to keep Bottas at that time.


I was waiting for that reply. He didn't have a drive at Renault. He had a contract offer from Renault, supposedly alongside one from another team (McLaren?), but nothing was ever signed and in place which is why they could do nothing but complain to the press. Mercedes just took it as a given which on one hand I suppose is understandable, but on the other hand is incredibly naive when you consider how frequently actual, signed contracts are broken in F1. They also didn't need to rush to re-sign Bottas until Ocon was 100% confirmed and announced as driving for Renault given Valtteri wasn't going to sign anywhere else, but did so anyway, which was equally naive.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:32 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I was waiting for that reply. He didn't have a drive at Renault. He had a contract offer from Renault, supposedly alongside one from another team (McLaren?), but nothing was ever signed and in place which is why they could do nothing but complain to the press. Mercedes just took it as a given which on one hand I suppose is understandable, but on the other hand is incredibly naive when you consider how frequently actual, signed contracts are broken in F1. They also didn't need to rush to re-sign Bottas until Ocon was 100% confirmed and announced as driving for Renault given Valtteri wasn't going to sign anywhere else, but did so anyway, which was equally naive.


All completely true but none of it relevant. The point is Toto thought Ocon was sorted. He didn't think he was leaving Ocon high and dry be resigning Bottas.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I was waiting for that reply. He didn't have a drive at Renault. He had a contract offer from Renault, supposedly alongside one from another team (McLaren?), but nothing was ever signed and in place which is why they could do nothing but complain to the press. Mercedes just took it as a given which on one hand I suppose is understandable, but on the other hand is incredibly naive when you consider how frequently actual, signed contracts are broken in F1. They also didn't need to rush to re-sign Bottas until Ocon was 100% confirmed and announced as driving for Renault given Valtteri wasn't going to sign anywhere else, but did so anyway, which was equally naive.


All completely true but none of it relevant. The point is Toto thought Ocon was sorted. He didn't think he was leaving Ocon high and dry be resigning Bottas.


Except it is relevant. Thinking Ocon was sorted is completely different to actually having a contract signed and a seat confirmed.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:50 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I was waiting for that reply. He didn't have a drive at Renault. He had a contract offer from Renault, supposedly alongside one from another team (McLaren?), but nothing was ever signed and in place which is why they could do nothing but complain to the press. Mercedes just took it as a given which on one hand I suppose is understandable, but on the other hand is incredibly naive when you consider how frequently actual, signed contracts are broken in F1. They also didn't need to rush to re-sign Bottas until Ocon was 100% confirmed and announced as driving for Renault given Valtteri wasn't going to sign anywhere else, but did so anyway, which was equally naive.


All completely true but none of it relevant. The point is Toto thought Ocon was sorted. He didn't think he was leaving Ocon high and dry be resigning Bottas.


Except it is relevant. Thinking Ocon was sorted is completely different to actually having a contract signed and a seat confirmed.


The reality of the isn't relevant. Toto thought it was going to happen. That's the only bit that's relevant to the question you posed RE resigning Bottas. It's not like he thought he was leaving Ocon on the sidelines. Had that been the case I think Ocon would now be in a Merc and not Bottas.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:44 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Last time I checked, ten years is a much longer period of time than five years.

You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?

Actually I heard the first choice for Mercedes was the Hulk but Renault wouldn't release him from his contract.

I'm not actually making the argument that Ocon is the preferred driver just questioning your opinion that Bottas is the preferred driver.

The original plan for Ocon was to do 1 more year with Force India but then they got bought out so a handshake deal was done with Renault but then Ricciardo jumped ship, Bottas had already been re-signed so Ocon was left high and dry, the acid test is who Mercedes choose for 2020?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?


He was extended at a point when Ocon had a drive at Renault. It made sense for everyone to keep Bottas at that time.


I was waiting for that reply. He didn't have a drive at Renault. He had a contract offer from Renault, supposedly alongside one from another team (McLaren?), but nothing was ever signed and in place which is why they could do nothing but complain to the press. Mercedes just took it as a given which on one hand I suppose is understandable, but on the other hand is incredibly naive when you consider how frequently actual, signed contracts are broken in F1. They also didn't need to rush to re-sign Bottas until Ocon was 100% confirmed and announced as driving for Renault given Valtteri wasn't going to sign anywhere else, but did so anyway, which was equally naive.

It was naive of Wolff to believe that a handshake deal with Abiteboul was good enough, he remarked later that Abiteboul was no gentleman.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

All completely true but none of it relevant. The point is Toto thought Ocon was sorted. He didn't think he was leaving Ocon high and dry be resigning Bottas.


Except it is relevant. Thinking Ocon was sorted is completely different to actually having a contract signed and a seat confirmed.


The reality of the isn't relevant. Toto thought it was going to happen. That's the only bit that's relevant to the question you posed RE resigning Bottas. It's not like he thought he was leaving Ocon on the sidelines. Had that been the case I think Ocon would now be in a Merc and not Bottas.


pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think that Wolff was managing Bottas' career for 10 years before he joined Mercedes?


I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?

Actually I heard the first choice for Mercedes was the Hulk but Renault wouldn't release him from his contract.

I'm not actually making the argument that Ocon is the preferred driver just questioning your opinion that Bottas is the preferred driver.

The original plan for Ocon was to do 1 more year with Force India but then they got bought out so a handshake deal was done with Renault but then Ricciardo jumped ship, Bottas had already been re-signed so Ocon was left high and dry, the acid test is who Mercedes choose for 2020?


As we are sort of in an 'agree to disagree' situation here, I'll just add that I agree we might get a better idea when Mercedes announce their 2020 drivers. It does feel like Bottas has done more this season to justify another extension, but at the same time it doesn't feel like he's done enough to make the decision for Mercedes. Conversely, with Ocon on the sidelines, he can't really do a great deal but hope Bottas underperforms and makes the decision for Mercedes in his (Ocon's) favour.

Although I suppose in an ideal world, Mercedes find a way to loan Ocon out for 2020 and retain Bottas... and then none of us can claim we're right :lol: ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:50 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

All completely true but none of it relevant. The point is Toto thought Ocon was sorted. He didn't think he was leaving Ocon high and dry be resigning Bottas.


Except it is relevant. Thinking Ocon was sorted is completely different to actually having a contract signed and a seat confirmed.


The reality of the isn't relevant. Toto thought it was going to happen. That's the only bit that's relevant to the question you posed RE resigning Bottas. It's not like he thought he was leaving Ocon on the sidelines. Had that been the case I think Ocon would now be in a Merc and not Bottas.


pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I think he would be including his time at Merc as well.

But that officially ended when Bottas joined Mercedes, my point is that Wolff has put just as much into Ocon's career as he did into Bottas' career pre Mercedes, if Bottas is so much Wolff's man then why the 1 year contracts for Bottas, that's not a ringing endorsement.


Just because it 'officially' ended when he joined Mercedes, doesn't mean it stops being valid. The fact remains that he was involved with Bottas' career prior to Mercedes for longer than he was Ocon's, and from an earlier point in Bottas' development than he was Ocon's. He would've been the one leading the push to have Bottas replace Rosberg.

Also, I could make the same argument that if Ocon is so much Wolff's man and he's more invested in him then why was Bottas even extended in the first place?

Actually I heard the first choice for Mercedes was the Hulk but Renault wouldn't release him from his contract.

I'm not actually making the argument that Ocon is the preferred driver just questioning your opinion that Bottas is the preferred driver.

The original plan for Ocon was to do 1 more year with Force India but then they got bought out so a handshake deal was done with Renault but then Ricciardo jumped ship, Bottas had already been re-signed so Ocon was left high and dry, the acid test is who Mercedes choose for 2020?


As we are sort of in an 'agree to disagree' situation here, I'll just add that I agree we might get a better idea when Mercedes announce their 2020 drivers. It does feel like Bottas has done more this season to justify another extension, but at the same time it doesn't feel like he's done enough to make the decision for Mercedes. Conversely, with Ocon on the sidelines, he can't really do a great deal but hope Bottas underperforms and makes the decision for Mercedes in his (Ocon's) favour.

Although I suppose in an ideal world, Mercedes find a way to loan Ocon out for 2020 and retain Bottas... and then none of us can claim we're right :lol: ;)


:lol: :thumbup:

The only thing I would add is that i don't think Bottas has done anything this year he wasn't doing last year.

The difference is a better Merc car and luck holding at key moments.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:44 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
:lol: :thumbup:

The only thing I would add is that i don't think Bottas has done anything this year he wasn't doing last year.

The difference is a better Merc car and luck holding at key moments.


To be fair he has closed the average gap in quali to less than a tenth of a second, although ironically he has the same head-to-head score after ten races as last year. But yes, Mercedes reasserting their dominance is allowing him to be a tenth or two off of Lewis and still find himself usually no worse than second, which wasn't the case last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:00 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
:lol: :thumbup:

The only thing I would add is that i don't think Bottas has done anything this year he wasn't doing last year.

The difference is a better Merc car and luck holding at key moments.


To be fair he has closed the average gap in quali to less than a tenth of a second, although ironically he has the same head-to-head score after ten races as last year. But yes, Mercedes reasserting their dominance is allowing him to be a tenth or two off of Lewis and still find himself usually no worse than second, which wasn't the case last year.


I think it's more on race day. He could do his usual go missing for a stint act and still finish a comfortable 2nd place.

I've never been a big rater of Bottas. I don't think he's doing anything in races that Perez, Hulkenberg or even Sainz couldn't do.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:26 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
:lol: :thumbup:

The only thing I would add is that i don't think Bottas has done anything this year he wasn't doing last year.

The difference is a better Merc car and luck holding at key moments.


To be fair he has closed the average gap in quali to less than a tenth of a second, although ironically he has the same head-to-head score after ten races as last year. But yes, Mercedes reasserting their dominance is allowing him to be a tenth or two off of Lewis and still find himself usually no worse than second, which wasn't the case last year.


I think it's more on race day. He could do his usual go missing for a stint act and still finish a comfortable 2nd place.

I've never been a big rater of Bottas. I don't think he's doing anything in races that Perez, Hulkenberg or even Sainz couldn't do.


The gap between the winner of a GP and the rest of the field is not a true reflection of ability.

Once in front under the current format we often see drivers simply managing the gap either to manage tyre wear or drive with the engine backed off to save it for later races.

It has been a long time since the leader has continued to drive flat out to the finish so establishing the true gap between him and the runner up.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:47 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
As we are sort of in an 'agree to disagree' situation here, I'll just add that I agree we might get a better idea when Mercedes announce their 2020 drivers. It does feel like Bottas has done more this season to justify another extension, but at the same time it doesn't feel like he's done enough to make the decision for Mercedes. Conversely, with Ocon on the sidelines, he can't really do a great deal but hope Bottas underperforms and makes the decision for Mercedes in his (Ocon's) favour.

Although I suppose in an ideal world, Mercedes find a way to loan Ocon out for 2020 and retain Bottas... and then none of us can claim we're right :lol: ;)

Well for me I'm not claiming anything I have little idea what Mercedes will actually do, for Mercedes they will see Bottas as a driver that doesn't play games and they don't have to worry about him crashing out Hamilton. He's a strong qualifier and with the competitive edge that Mercedes presently have there is no real reason to replace him.

I have a feeling like you say it may come down to whether Mercedes can find a seat somewhere else in F1 for Ocon, if not then I can see them biting the bullet and replacing Bottas with Ocon, it may be something that's more forced upon them with the bottom line of how much they actually rate Ocon to take the risk of upsetting a stable driver line up?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:50 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
:lol: :thumbup:

The only thing I would add is that i don't think Bottas has done anything this year he wasn't doing last year.

The difference is a better Merc car and luck holding at key moments.

Exactly :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:53 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
:lol: :thumbup:

The only thing I would add is that i don't think Bottas has done anything this year he wasn't doing last year.

The difference is a better Merc car and luck holding at key moments.


To be fair he has closed the average gap in quali to less than a tenth of a second, although ironically he has the same head-to-head score after ten races as last year. But yes, Mercedes reasserting their dominance is allowing him to be a tenth or two off of Lewis and still find himself usually no worse than second, which wasn't the case last year.

That's not true pro rata, this time last season the qualifying gap was actually slightly smaller.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:57 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo has past his test, he needed to have pace over Hulk to keep his name there for the top seats and he had done it. He has out paced every team mate he has ever had, bar Verstappen who is potentially the best out there. Ricciardo was also very close to Verstappen.

People used to say Hulk was the best driver to not get into a top seat, than that moved to Bottas. Bottas got his top seat and Hulk has now be shown to not been top quality. I hope Ferrari come in for Ricciardo or he goes back to Red Bull if Max goes to Ferrari.


Maybe it's just me but i'm not really seeing it.

Yeah sure Ricciardo's doing the job in quali, but race? Mmmmmm, not sure.

Only 5 pts separating them near the 1/2 way mark. Hulkenberg had to obey team orders in Canada after some pretty thoughtless driving by Ricciardo destroyed his tyres.

Quali aside, I think Hulkenberg has held his own against Ricciardo on race pace & considering where he's been starting in comparison to Ricciardo, i'd not necessarily disagree if someone wanted to argue Hulkenberg was driving as well as Ricciardo...... or maybe better.


mikeyg123 wrote:
Ricciardo has made more mistakes but is almost always a shade faster.

Don't forget as well that drivers tend to take a while to settle into a new team. I would expect the gap between them to start extending as we go forward


BMWSauber84 wrote:
Montreal was essentially because Ricciardo had been fighting battles that Hulkenberg hadn't been fast enough to get into. Had Daniel just let Bottas and Verstappen past without a fight then he'd have finished miles and miles up the road but without the positive PR of a Reanult battling the top guys. Without a silly mistake in Baku and overly aggressive overtaking in France, that point difference would be bigger.

Hulkenberg is very dependable, but it's pretty clear that Ricciardo has more pace generally.


pokerman wrote:
Yeah I'd go along with that, his stock was only going to go down if he had stayed at Red Bull, the gamble was that he had to beat the Hulk and he is doing that, I think presently you'd have to see him as the third best driver behind Hamilton and Verstappen so he's well placed for 2021 if either Hamilton or Vettel decide to retire, in particular Vettel.


I suppose you're all right. Maybe I expected too much from Ricciardo so early after joining Renault.

This You Tube clip clearly shows Ricciardo was on the ball at Silverstone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcNl6cuziYk

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:40 am 
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Read somewhere Steiner is furious with both drivers, especially Grosjean. So much so, he even called Gene Haas after the British Grand Prix for permission to terminate Grosjean's services from the team as soon as possible. The one touted to replace him as soon as German GP is Esteban Ocon.

No doubt, things are beyond bad at Haas. The next few days coming to the German GP will be worth waiting for.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/41622/esteban-ocon-could-replace-romain-grosjean-at-haas.html

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:57 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Read somewhere Steiner is furious with both drivers, especially Grosjean. So much so, he even called Gene Haas after the British Grand Prix for permission to terminate Grosjean's services from the team as soon as possible. The one touted to replace him as soon as German GP is Esteban Ocon.

No doubt, things are beyond bad at Haas. The next few days coming to the German GP will be worth waiting for.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/41622/esteban-ocon-could-replace-romain-grosjean-at-haas.html

I thought it wasn't RoGro's fault in GB. I need to see the incident again.

But yeah, they are not a happy couple there, I feel that something's going to happen soon. Especially if they have another incident


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:17 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Read somewhere Steiner is furious with both drivers, especially Grosjean. So much so, he even called Gene Haas after the British Grand Prix for permission to terminate Grosjean's services from the team as soon as possible. The one touted to replace him as soon as German GP is Esteban Ocon.

No doubt, things are beyond bad at Haas. The next few days coming to the German GP will be worth waiting for.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/41622/esteban-ocon-could-replace-romain-grosjean-at-haas.html

I thought it wasn't RoGro's fault in GB. I need to see the incident again.

But yeah, they are not a happy couple there, I feel that something's going to happen soon. Especially if they have another incident


Are you also forgetting his amateurish crash at the pit lane exit?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:50 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Read somewhere Steiner is furious with both drivers, especially Grosjean. So much so, he even called Gene Haas after the British Grand Prix for permission to terminate Grosjean's services from the team as soon as possible. The one touted to replace him as soon as German GP is Esteban Ocon.

No doubt, things are beyond bad at Haas. The next few days coming to the German GP will be worth waiting for.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/41622/esteban-ocon-could-replace-romain-grosjean-at-haas.html

I thought it wasn't RoGro's fault in GB. I need to see the incident again.

But yeah, they are not a happy couple there, I feel that something's going to happen soon. Especially if they have another incident


Are you also forgetting his amateurish crash at the pit lane exit?

Haha, indeed I did!

I kind of took it as with the trouble between the drivers, not their general (poor) performance. But you are absolutely right.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:39 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Read somewhere Steiner is furious with both drivers, especially Grosjean. So much so, he even called Gene Haas after the British Grand Prix for permission to terminate Grosjean's services from the team as soon as possible. The one touted to replace him as soon as German GP is Esteban Ocon.

No doubt, things are beyond bad at Haas. The next few days coming to the German GP will be worth waiting for.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/41622/esteban-ocon-could-replace-romain-grosjean-at-haas.html

I hope it happens, Grosjean is a spent force.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:45 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Read somewhere Steiner is furious with both drivers, especially Grosjean. So much so, he even called Gene Haas after the British Grand Prix for permission to terminate Grosjean's services from the team as soon as possible. The one touted to replace him as soon as German GP is Esteban Ocon.

No doubt, things are beyond bad at Haas. The next few days coming to the German GP will be worth waiting for.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/41622/esteban-ocon-could-replace-romain-grosjean-at-haas.html


On the upside I can't wait to watch 'Drive To Survive 'next year!


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:30 pm 
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It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


What's Norris done that Ocon hasn't?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


What's Norris done that Ocon hasn't?

He's looked to be quicker than Sainz in his rookie season. For me that is more impressive than Ocon looked in his first year. In terms of outright speed, Lando looks very impressive for a 19 year old rookie. He has also been very racey when he's had wheel to wheel chances. Ocon has never looked that special as a fighter. I suppose I see Ocon as a lateral move from Bottas at best. I don't see an upgrade there but I admit that I may be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


What's Norris done that Ocon hasn't?

He's looked to be quicker than Sainz in his rookie season. For me that is more impressive than Ocon looked in his first year. In terms of outright speed, Lando looks very impressive for a 19 year old rookie. He has also been very racey when he's had wheel to wheel chances. Ocon has never looked that special as a fighter. I suppose I see Ocon as a lateral move from Bottas at best. I don't see an upgrade there but I admit that I may be wrong.


I would say Norris has looked slightly better against Sainz than Ocon did against Perez across there first half season. I would also say that Perez is a bit better than Sainz. So I'd peg Ocon and Norris about equal at the same point in their careers. I think both have a lot of improvement in them to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


What's Norris done that Ocon hasn't?

He's looked to be quicker than Sainz in his rookie season. For me that is more impressive than Ocon looked in his first year. In terms of outright speed, Lando looks very impressive for a 19 year old rookie. He has also been very racey when he's had wheel to wheel chances. Ocon has never looked that special as a fighter. I suppose I see Ocon as a lateral move from Bottas at best. I don't see an upgrade there but I admit that I may be wrong.


I would say Norris has looked slightly better against Sainz than Ocon did against Perez across there first half season. I would also say that Perez is a bit better than Sainz. So I'd peg Ocon and Norris about equal at the same point in their careers. I think both have a lot of improvement in them to come.


This is Ocon's debut period & the next year in Force India. He finished 27 races continuously since making debut. The record still stands. It would've been longer if not for Grosjean crashing into him at 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix. The results are good but he did qualify better as well.

Image
Source - www.imgur.com

IMO, before Russell, Ocon deserves a shot with Mercedes.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:39 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


What's Norris done that Ocon hasn't?

He's looked to be quicker than Sainz in his rookie season. For me that is more impressive than Ocon looked in his first year. In terms of outright speed, Lando looks very impressive for a 19 year old rookie. He has also been very racey when he's had wheel to wheel chances. Ocon has never looked that special as a fighter. I suppose I see Ocon as a lateral move from Bottas at best. I don't see an upgrade there but I admit that I may be wrong.


I would say Norris has looked slightly better against Sainz than Ocon did against Perez across there first half season. I would also say that Perez is a bit better than Sainz. So I'd peg Ocon and Norris about equal at the same point in their careers. I think both have a lot of improvement in them to come.


This is Ocon's debut period & the next year in Force India. He finished 27 races continuously since making debut. The record still stands. It would've been longer if not for Grosjean crashing into him at 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix. The results are good but he did qualify better as well.

Image
Source - http://www.imgur.com

IMO, before Russell, Ocon deserves a shot with Mercedes.


Yeah I don't count the Manor bit. People forget just how consistently good Ocon was straight out of the gate.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:16 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's looking more and more like this will be Grosjean's last year as an F1 driver. Rumors now have Ocon replacing him, potentially as soon as the next race! I think this just makes sense for all involved. Haas have to do something at this point. Romain is simply not producing results and the team is in a very bad place. Bringing in some new blood might help give them a boost.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/formula-1/102 ... -german-gp

For Mercedes, replacing Bottas just doesn't make sense unless it's with someone like Verstappen, Leclerc or Norris and you are looking at a succession plan for Hamilton. Ocon has not established that he is that kind of prospect IMO and shaking things up for no good reason would be foolish.

For Ocon, getting back on the grid as soon as possible should be his one and only priority. Holding out hope for a Mercedes drive is all well and good but it's looking like that ship may have sailed and Haas will put him in position to potentially replace Seb at Ferrari in the near future. He might be a bit apprehensive about joining mid-season though. That's never easy. I'd prefer to see him signed for next season and let Grosjean and Magnussen battle it out for the rest of the year to see who gets to stay on. Might be just the motivation they both need.


Grosjean was retained for simply doing well in the 2nd part of 2018. I think he got a haul of points and even a 4th position. If Haas still keeps him for now, it's anyone's guess if Grosjean will eventually be fired. F1 has a short memory. Once a driver starts doing well, all is well again.

But from the report, looks like Haas is firing him soon. Usually teams rather not fire due to the compensation they have to give. I remember cases like Palmer being paid 3 million just to leave, or even for Kimi, almost 10 million or so not to drive back then.


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