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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Wouldn't a red Bull that has amazing downforce & grip around corners suit Alonso's driving style? I think Alonso would be a good match for Verstappen!

I think any car would suit Alonso's driving style. 2007 is the only time I recall him taking a while to adapt to new handling characteristics

In an Alonso v Verstappen scenario I think he would very much have to rely on being the Lauda against Prost or the being the Prost against Senna. I don't believe he'd have an answer for Max on Saturday, he'd have to throw everything at Sunday

It's kind of funny how often drivers have problems with cars when they have a stronger teammate, just saying.

For the record Hamilton was stronger against Alonso in the second half of the season.

Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Posts: 32145
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Wouldn't a red Bull that has amazing downforce & grip around corners suit Alonso's driving style? I think Alonso would be a good match for Verstappen!

I think any car would suit Alonso's driving style. 2007 is the only time I recall him taking a while to adapt to new handling characteristics

In an Alonso v Verstappen scenario I think he would very much have to rely on being the Lauda against Prost or the being the Prost against Senna. I don't believe he'd have an answer for Max on Saturday, he'd have to throw everything at Sunday

It's kind of funny how often drivers have problems with cars when they have a stronger teammate, just saying.

For the record Hamilton was stronger against Alonso in the second half of the season.

Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:14 pm 
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Posts: 10248
Location: Ireland
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Wouldn't a red Bull that has amazing downforce & grip around corners suit Alonso's driving style? I think Alonso would be a good match for Verstappen!

I think any car would suit Alonso's driving style. 2007 is the only time I recall him taking a while to adapt to new handling characteristics

In an Alonso v Verstappen scenario I think he would very much have to rely on being the Lauda against Prost or the being the Prost against Senna. I don't believe he'd have an answer for Max on Saturday, he'd have to throw everything at Sunday

It's kind of funny how often drivers have problems with cars when they have a stronger teammate, just saying.

For the record Hamilton was stronger against Alonso in the second half of the season.

Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Posts: 2214
UnlikeUday wrote:
Surely drivers such as Grosjean, Gasly & Kubica won't be a part of the 2020 grid. So if Hulk takes Grosjean's place, (supposedly) Kvyat takes Gasly's place which means a seat vacant at Toro Rosso. Who'd be replacing Kubica then? Sirotkin or Latifi? Are any of these 2 drivers a bigger upgrade than Kubica, apart from the sponsorship money they'll bring?


Unfortunately, I fear any one of the mentioned drivers and many more would be an upgrade on the 2019 Kubica.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:31 am 
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Posts: 32145
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think any car would suit Alonso's driving style. 2007 is the only time I recall him taking a while to adapt to new handling characteristics

In an Alonso v Verstappen scenario I think he would very much have to rely on being the Lauda against Prost or the being the Prost against Senna. I don't believe he'd have an answer for Max on Saturday, he'd have to throw everything at Sunday

It's kind of funny how often drivers have problems with cars when they have a stronger teammate, just saying.

For the record Hamilton was stronger against Alonso in the second half of the season.

Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:28 am 
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Posts: 5228
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's kind of funny how often drivers have problems with cars when they have a stronger teammate, just saying.

For the record Hamilton was stronger against Alonso in the second half of the season.

Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?


Why can't not being comfortable with the tyres (and brakes) have an impact on any driving errors? Surely that's precisely what you'd expect to see because the tyres affect the whole cars balance so if you aren't using them properly and getting them in the window then you'll have an unbalanced car with sub optimal grip so mistakes are far more likely,right?

What defines he was worse in the second half then seeing as you made the claim first but haven't really offered anything up to show why you think he was better in the first half yet?

As I remember it, him being better post Hungary than before it was held up as proof his car wasn't being tampered with when the tin foil brigade showed up so what's happened now to suggest he was actually worse post Hungary and better before it?

(Fwiw I thought he was much of a muchness as I recall, slightly better on a Sunday in the second half, better on a Saturday for the first few weekends when he had fuel priority and Lewis was in his first handful of Q sessions so not really surprising but I did think he looked more comfortable on a Sunday after he was allowed to use his Hitco brakes from Silverstone onwards instead of the CI ones they made him use in the 1st half of the season)

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 10248
Location: Ireland
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?

He didn't look too hot in Australia, Bahrain or Monaco either. Add in the fact that Ferrari and/or Kimi really hit their stride in the latter half and that helps make it look similar to the first half on paper

And that's before anyone gets into the post-Hungary atmosphere in the team. It's not quantifiable what impact that may have had on results so I won't bother considering it

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:56 am 
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Posts: 117
My predictions for silly season...

Vettel to RBR

Bottas to Ferrari

Ricciardo to Mercedes

Ocon to Renault

I'm pretty sure Vettel has a buy out clause in his contract, as does Ricciardo. Vettel has been seen having a lot of meetings with Horner this year, and must be sick of Ferrari by now.

Ricciardo will be massively regretting joining Renault, and if an opportunity comes up to join Mercedes, he won't hesitate. I can't see Ricciardo wanting to join Ferrari, especially after their stuff ups from 2017 through to 2019. I doubt he'd be welcome back at RBR - that bridge is burnt. He was never close, or as favoured by Marko or Horner, as Verstappen and Vettel were/are.

I highly doubt Ocon will get a chance to join Mercedes - I honestly don't think he's better than Bottas, and I doubt he's a team player based on prior issues with Perez at Force India.

I think Hulkenberg will do a sideways move to HAAS. Grosjean will be out (or move to Renault in a direct seat swap).


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Posts: 32145
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?


Why can't not being comfortable with the tyres (and brakes) have an impact on any driving errors? Surely that's precisely what you'd expect to see because the tyres affect the whole cars balance so if you aren't using them properly and getting them in the window then you'll have an unbalanced car with sub optimal grip so mistakes are far more likely,right?

What defines he was worse in the second half then seeing as you made the claim first but haven't really offered anything up to show why you think he was better in the first half yet?

As I remember it, him being better post Hungary than before it was held up as proof his car wasn't being tampered with when the tin foil brigade showed up so what's happened now to suggest he was actually worse post Hungary and better before it?

(Fwiw I thought he was much of a muchness as I recall, slightly better on a Sunday in the second half, better on a Saturday for the first few weekends when he had fuel priority and Lewis was in his first handful of Q sessions so not really surprising but I did think he looked more comfortable on a Sunday after he was allowed to use his Hitco brakes from Silverstone onwards instead of the CI ones they made him use in the 1st half of the season)

I don't see anything that defines him as being worse in the first half of the season, relative to Hamilton I would say he was worse in the second half of the season but I would see that more as Hamilton improving as you would expect from a rookie.

Hamilton certainly finished the season stronger than Alonso speed wise but basically posting 2 DNF's in the last 2 races tends to disguise that.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Posts: 32145
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Alonso didn't have a problem with the car. It was the change from Michelin to Bridgestone. I recall Peter Windsor doing a great piece on it, with a detailed comparison of Alonso behind the wheel of the Renault and behind the wheel of the McLaren

Pretend it didn't happen if you like, but it was documented at the time:
"Ron Dennis's Woking-based team looked like being more competitive in 2007 than the previous season when, amazing as it now seems, McLaren failed to win a single race. And surely Hamilton would struggle against a driver with two consecutive titles and 15 victories to his name.

This reasonable assumption was scuppered by two things: Hamilton's exceptional talent and Alonso's inability to deal with the latest type of Bridgestone tyre. By becoming the sole supplier in F1, Bridgestone produced tyres that had very different characteristics from the Michelin rubber Alonso had become accustomed to when with Renault. Hamilton, on the other hand, had no preconceived ideas and adapted quickly."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... rts.sport1

If I recall correctly, Kimi had similar struggles with the change to Bridgestone

This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?

He didn't look too hot in Australia, Bahrain or Monaco either. Add in the fact that Ferrari and/or Kimi really hit their stride in the latter half and that helps make it look similar to the first half on paper

And that's before anyone gets into the post-Hungary atmosphere in the team. It's not quantifiable what impact that may have had on results so I won't bother considering it

Alonso won Monaco and beat Hamilton easily in Australia so that leaves me confused that you consider these sub par races for Alonso?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Posts: 32145
dpastern wrote:
My predictions for silly season...

Vettel to RBR

Bottas to Ferrari

Ricciardo to Mercedes

Ocon to Renault

I'm pretty sure Vettel has a buy out clause in his contract, as does Ricciardo. Vettel has been seen having a lot of meetings with Horner this year, and must be sick of Ferrari by now.

Ricciardo will be massively regretting joining Renault, and if an opportunity comes up to join Mercedes, he won't hesitate. I can't see Ricciardo wanting to join Ferrari, especially after their stuff ups from 2017 through to 2019. I doubt he'd be welcome back at RBR - that bridge is burnt. He was never close, or as favoured by Marko or Horner, as Verstappen and Vettel were/are.

I highly doubt Ocon will get a chance to join Mercedes - I honestly don't think he's better than Bottas, and I doubt he's a team player based on prior issues with Perez at Force India.

I think Hulkenberg will do a sideways move to HAAS. Grosjean will be out (or move to Renault in a direct seat swap).

True silly season predictions. :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5228
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?


Why can't not being comfortable with the tyres (and brakes) have an impact on any driving errors? Surely that's precisely what you'd expect to see because the tyres affect the whole cars balance so if you aren't using them properly and getting them in the window then you'll have an unbalanced car with sub optimal grip so mistakes are far more likely,right?

What defines he was worse in the second half then seeing as you made the claim first but haven't really offered anything up to show why you think he was better in the first half yet?

As I remember it, him being better post Hungary than before it was held up as proof his car wasn't being tampered with when the tin foil brigade showed up so what's happened now to suggest he was actually worse post Hungary and better before it?

(Fwiw I thought he was much of a muchness as I recall, slightly better on a Sunday in the second half, better on a Saturday for the first few weekends when he had fuel priority and Lewis was in his first handful of Q sessions so not really surprising but I did think he looked more comfortable on a Sunday after he was allowed to use his Hitco brakes from Silverstone onwards instead of the CI ones they made him use in the 1st half of the season)

I don't see anything that defines him as being worse in the first half of the season, relative to Hamilton I would say he was worse in the second half of the season but I would see that more as Hamilton improving as you would expect from a rookie.

Hamilton certainly finished the season stronger than Alonso speed wise but basically posting 2 DNF's in the last 2 races tends to disguise that.


You're still not telling us what makes you think Alonso was better in the 1st half? Is it just quali? Because on a Sunday Alonso was better in the 2nd half imo and I think the stats back that up but could be wrong. I remember from the Hughes piece that he had the previous 6 comparable races before Hungary they were 3-3 and the 5 comparable races after he "won" 3-2. So even if we gave another race in the back half to even it up and give it to Lewis then at worst Alonso's been no worse off in the 2nd half on a Sunday at least.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32145
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?


Why can't not being comfortable with the tyres (and brakes) have an impact on any driving errors? Surely that's precisely what you'd expect to see because the tyres affect the whole cars balance so if you aren't using them properly and getting them in the window then you'll have an unbalanced car with sub optimal grip so mistakes are far more likely,right?

What defines he was worse in the second half then seeing as you made the claim first but haven't really offered anything up to show why you think he was better in the first half yet?

As I remember it, him being better post Hungary than before it was held up as proof his car wasn't being tampered with when the tin foil brigade showed up so what's happened now to suggest he was actually worse post Hungary and better before it?

(Fwiw I thought he was much of a muchness as I recall, slightly better on a Sunday in the second half, better on a Saturday for the first few weekends when he had fuel priority and Lewis was in his first handful of Q sessions so not really surprising but I did think he looked more comfortable on a Sunday after he was allowed to use his Hitco brakes from Silverstone onwards instead of the CI ones they made him use in the 1st half of the season)

I don't see anything that defines him as being worse in the first half of the season, relative to Hamilton I would say he was worse in the second half of the season but I would see that more as Hamilton improving as you would expect from a rookie.

Hamilton certainly finished the season stronger than Alonso speed wise but basically posting 2 DNF's in the last 2 races tends to disguise that.


You're still not telling us what makes you think Alonso was better in the 1st half? Is it just quali? Because on a Sunday Alonso was better in the 2nd half imo and I think the stats back that up but could be wrong. I remember from the Hughes piece that he had the previous 6 comparable races before Hungary they were 3-3 and the 5 comparable races after he "won" 3-2. So even if we gave another race in the back half to even it up and give it to Lewis then at worst Alonso's been no worse off in the 2nd half on a Sunday at least.

I never made that claim I just refuted the suggestion that Alonso was worse in the first half of the season, I also did put forward that in the second half of the season Hamilton improved, the final races of the season Hamilton was clearly quicker.

I believe it was said that Alonso struggled initially then when I said there was little difference between the two halves of the season then it gets put forward that Alonso might have suffered after Hungarygate, it seems you can always find a cover story?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:31 pm 
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I was hoping for russell to merc but probably to early. So ocon in for bottas. Bottas to renault or haas. Hulk goes to haas replaces grosjean with mag barely hanging onto his seat. It's a shame that russell is stuck at williams because i think he has a great deal of talent and should be on a more competitive team.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:13 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
My predictions for silly season...

Vettel to RBR

Bottas to Ferrari

Ricciardo to Mercedes

Ocon to Renault

I'm pretty sure Vettel has a buy out clause in his contract, as does Ricciardo. Vettel has been seen having a lot of meetings with Horner this year, and must be sick of Ferrari by now.

Ricciardo will be massively regretting joining Renault, and if an opportunity comes up to join Mercedes, he won't hesitate. I can't see Ricciardo wanting to join Ferrari, especially after their stuff ups from 2017 through to 2019. I doubt he'd be welcome back at RBR - that bridge is burnt. He was never close, or as favoured by Marko or Horner, as Verstappen and Vettel were/are.

I highly doubt Ocon will get a chance to join Mercedes - I honestly don't think he's better than Bottas, and I doubt he's a team player based on prior issues with Perez at Force India.

I think Hulkenberg will do a sideways move to HAAS. Grosjean will be out (or move to Renault in a direct seat swap).

I support Bottas so am conflicted about his continuing at Mercedes, but one this is for sure; something like the above playing out would be far more interesting than just bringing Ocon in which in my opinion at best would be a parallel move by Mercedes.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
dpastern wrote:
My predictions for silly season...

Vettel to RBR

Bottas to Ferrari

Ricciardo to Mercedes

Ocon to Renault

I'm pretty sure Vettel has a buy out clause in his contract, as does Ricciardo. Vettel has been seen having a lot of meetings with Horner this year, and must be sick of Ferrari by now.

Ricciardo will be massively regretting joining Renault, and if an opportunity comes up to join Mercedes, he won't hesitate. I can't see Ricciardo wanting to join Ferrari, especially after their stuff ups from 2017 through to 2019. I doubt he'd be welcome back at RBR - that bridge is burnt. He was never close, or as favoured by Marko or Horner, as Verstappen and Vettel were/are.

I highly doubt Ocon will get a chance to join Mercedes - I honestly don't think he's better than Bottas, and I doubt he's a team player based on prior issues with Perez at Force India.

I think Hulkenberg will do a sideways move to HAAS. Grosjean will be out (or move to Renault in a direct seat swap).

True silly season predictions. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This doesn't relate to the fact that Alonso was stronger in the first half of the season than the second half of the season and after 2007 he seemingly had no more problems with the Bridgestone tyres.

I would agree that Alonso lost the advantages he would have had if still on the Michelin tyres.

He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?

He didn't look too hot in Australia, Bahrain or Monaco either. Add in the fact that Ferrari and/or Kimi really hit their stride in the latter half and that helps make it look similar to the first half on paper

And that's before anyone gets into the post-Hungary atmosphere in the team. It's not quantifiable what impact that may have had on results so I won't bother considering it

Alonso won Monaco and beat Hamilton easily in Australia so that leaves me confused that you consider these sub par races for Alonso?

Yeah of course they were. Alonso got a rude awakening as early as the first race when Hamilton jumped him off the grid and held him behind for the majority of the race. An optimal pit strategy got him past if I recall correctly

And I thought even you would remember Hamilton was all over Alonso's gearbox in Monaco and was warned by the team not to have a go. Alonso won that race on Saturday, he wasn't the faster driver on Sunday

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?


Why can't not being comfortable with the tyres (and brakes) have an impact on any driving errors? Surely that's precisely what you'd expect to see because the tyres affect the whole cars balance so if you aren't using them properly and getting them in the window then you'll have an unbalanced car with sub optimal grip so mistakes are far more likely,right?

What defines he was worse in the second half then seeing as you made the claim first but haven't really offered anything up to show why you think he was better in the first half yet?

As I remember it, him being better post Hungary than before it was held up as proof his car wasn't being tampered with when the tin foil brigade showed up so what's happened now to suggest he was actually worse post Hungary and better before it?

(Fwiw I thought he was much of a muchness as I recall, slightly better on a Sunday in the second half, better on a Saturday for the first few weekends when he had fuel priority and Lewis was in his first handful of Q sessions so not really surprising but I did think he looked more comfortable on a Sunday after he was allowed to use his Hitco brakes from Silverstone onwards instead of the CI ones they made him use in the 1st half of the season)

I don't see anything that defines him as being worse in the first half of the season, relative to Hamilton I would say he was worse in the second half of the season but I would see that more as Hamilton improving as you would expect from a rookie.

Hamilton certainly finished the season stronger than Alonso speed wise but basically posting 2 DNF's in the last 2 races tends to disguise that.


You're still not telling us what makes you think Alonso was better in the 1st half? Is it just quali? Because on a Sunday Alonso was better in the 2nd half imo and I think the stats back that up but could be wrong. I remember from the Hughes piece that he had the previous 6 comparable races before Hungary they were 3-3 and the 5 comparable races after he "won" 3-2. So even if we gave another race in the back half to even it up and give it to Lewis then at worst Alonso's been no worse off in the 2nd half on a Sunday at least.

I never made that claim I just refuted the suggestion that Alonso was worse in the first half of the season, I also did put forward that in the second half of the season Hamilton improved, the final races of the season Hamilton was clearly quicker.

I believe it was said that Alonso struggled initially then when I said there was little difference between the two halves of the season then it gets put forward that Alonso might have suffered after Hungarygate, it seems you can always find a cover story?


Refuted just by saying so, not actually offering up anything to support that though, despite being asked. You didn't say there was little difference, I said there was much of a muchness but Alonso looked more comfortable on a Sunday in the 2nd half whereas you said Lewis was stronger against him in the 2nd half after mcdo pointed out the stories around Alonso's initial struggles.

The reference to the tin foil brigade around Hungarygate was clear, I can't be bothered hand holding today so re-read it or leave the strawmen alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:33 am 
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Personally I don't see the issue with promoting George to Merc for 2020. These youngsters today don't seem to be fazed by anything and his performances this season have certainly gained him a new fanbase. Reminds me of Alonso in 2001.

He'll have so much to learn from Lewis before Hamilton calls it a day. For me, Russell has so much more potential than Ocon.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
He was not stronger in the first half of the season. He ruined his year in normal conditions in Spain and Canada. The loss of big points in Hungary and Fuji in the latter half were not under normal conditions. Equal amount of wins in both halves, more podiums in the second half

His qualy performance relative to Hamilton may have gotten worse at the tail end of the season but that's more down to Hamilton improving into a qualifying ace more than anything else

These were merely driving errors, nothing to do with the tyres, Alonso just had 1 podium more in the second half of the season to define he was better?

He didn't look too hot in Australia, Bahrain or Monaco either. Add in the fact that Ferrari and/or Kimi really hit their stride in the latter half and that helps make it look similar to the first half on paper

And that's before anyone gets into the post-Hungary atmosphere in the team. It's not quantifiable what impact that may have had on results so I won't bother considering it

Alonso won Monaco and beat Hamilton easily in Australia so that leaves me confused that you consider these sub par races for Alonso?

Yeah of course they were. Alonso got a rude awakening as early as the first race when Hamilton jumped him off the grid and held him behind for the majority of the race. An optimal pit strategy got him past if I recall correctly

And I thought even you would remember Hamilton was all over Alonso's gearbox in Monaco and was warned by the team not to have a go. Alonso won that race on Saturday, he wasn't the faster driver on Sunday

In Australia once in front of Hamilton he drove away from him and left him 16 seconds down the road, this the opening race of the season were Alonso we are saying had all kinds of issues adapting?

In Monaco there's no proof of either driver being faster or slower in the race.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:58 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
For me, Russell has so much more potential than Ocon.

I'm inclined to agree. I feel like we pretty much know Ocon's level, and know that it's about ~2 tenths slower than Hamilton in all likelihood. Russel's level is a complete unknown - what if Kubica really hasn't lost as much as it seems, and Russel is the next Hamilton? There's far more potential upside to promoting him, and at worst I think he'd be Ocon level in a year or two.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Latest for 2020

RBR Vettel and Max
Mercedes Hamilton and Ricciardo
Ferrari Alonso and Leclerc
HAAS Magnussen and Wehrlein
Renault Bottas and Hulk
Mclaren as it is
Sauber Alfa as it is
Sport Pesa etc. as it is
Torro Rosso as it is
Williams as it is

Source: trust.me ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:33 pm 
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Guys, this is the Silly Season 2020 topic, not Alonso vs Hamilton 2007 part 427. Keep it on topic please.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
For me, Russell has so much more potential than Ocon.

I'm inclined to agree. I feel like we pretty much know Ocon's level, and know that it's about ~2 tenths slower than Hamilton in all likelihood. Russel's level is a complete unknown - what if Kubica really hasn't lost as much as it seems, and Russel is the next Hamilton? There's far more potential upside to promoting him, and at worst I think he'd be Ocon level in a year or two.


I have witnessed both of them in F3. IMO, Ocon has clearly more talent than Russell.

Kubica, as sad as it is, is not even a shadow of his former self anymore. Every top driver from F2 would easily beat him.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:01 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
I was hoping for russell to merc but probably to early. So ocon in for bottas. Bottas to renault or haas. Hulk goes to haas replaces grosjean with mag barely hanging onto his seat. It's a shame that russell is stuck at williams because i think he has a great deal of talent and should be on a more competitive team.

Another year at Williams will do Russell no harm.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:
I was hoping for russell to merc but probably to early. So ocon in for bottas. Bottas to renault or haas. Hulk goes to haas replaces grosjean with mag barely hanging onto his seat. It's a shame that russell is stuck at williams because i think he has a great deal of talent and should be on a more competitive team.

Another year at Williams will do Russell no harm.


Agreed. I honestly think that would be a better option than feeding him to Hamilton at this point in his career.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:27 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
For me, Russell has so much more potential than Ocon.

I'm inclined to agree. I feel like we pretty much know Ocon's level, and know that it's about ~2 tenths slower than Hamilton in all likelihood. Russel's level is a complete unknown - what if Kubica really hasn't lost as much as it seems, and Russel is the next Hamilton? There's far more potential upside to promoting him, and at worst I think he'd be Ocon level in a year or two.


I have witnessed both of them in F3. IMO, Ocon has clearly more talent than Russell.

Kubica, as sad as it is, is not even a shadow of his former self anymore. Every top driver from F2 would easily beat him.

I'm not sure how good Russell's F3 teams were, he was always much better than his teammates, he was outstanding in GP3 and F2, again much better than his teammates.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
For me, Russell has so much more potential than Ocon.

I'm inclined to agree. I feel like we pretty much know Ocon's level, and know that it's about ~2 tenths slower than Hamilton in all likelihood. Russel's level is a complete unknown - what if Kubica really hasn't lost as much as it seems, and Russel is the next Hamilton? There's far more potential upside to promoting him, and at worst I think he'd be Ocon level in a year or two.


I have witnessed both of them in F3. IMO, Ocon has clearly more talent than Russell.

Kubica, as sad as it is, is not even a shadow of his former self anymore. Every top driver from F2 would easily beat him.

I'm not sure how good Russell's F3 teams were, he was always much better than his teammates, he was outstanding in GP3 and F2, again much better than his teammates.


... and good but not outstanding in F3.

I judge young drivers in feeder categories by watching them on track. This does mean I am always right, of course. But still, F2 is not a good measure for raw talent recently/currently: too much weight on tyres, too much weight on reverse grid races.
For me, Russell is the new Vandoorne.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:07 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
For me, Russell has so much more potential than Ocon.

I'm inclined to agree. I feel like we pretty much know Ocon's level, and know that it's about ~2 tenths slower than Hamilton in all likelihood. Russel's level is a complete unknown - what if Kubica really hasn't lost as much as it seems, and Russel is the next Hamilton? There's far more potential upside to promoting him, and at worst I think he'd be Ocon level in a year or two.


I have witnessed both of them in F3. IMO, Ocon has clearly more talent than Russell.

Kubica, as sad as it is, is not even a shadow of his former self anymore. Every top driver from F2 would easily beat him.

I'm not sure how good Russell's F3 teams were, he was always much better than his teammates, he was outstanding in GP3 and F2, again much better than his teammates.


... and good but not outstanding in F3.

I judge young drivers in feeder categories by watching them on track. This does mean I am always right, of course. But still, F2 is not a good measure for raw talent recently/currently: too much weight on tyres, too much weight on reverse grid races.
For me, Russell is the new Vandoorne.

The cars were not identical in Euro F3, Stroll for instance had Williams designing aerodynamic parts for his car and his car only not his teammates, it became an arms race with the biggest budgets winning.

Leclerc only finished 5th in Euro F3, it became a series were you couldn't really judge talent until the FIA started clamping down on it after complaints mainly from drivers.

What Russell did in GP3 and especially F2 set him out as being really good and thus far in F1 there's nothing presently to say otherwise, he was exceptional in Hungary.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:21 pm 
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I disagree The F3 car and weekend format were much more suitable to distinguish talent than GP3 or especially F2. The Stroll antics were the exception, not the rule. And, like with every season, you need to look beyond results. Verstappen did not win F3, but his exceptional talent was obvious to everyone at the track. Same with Ocon, Leclerc and Norris. Russell is a good driver, no doubt, like Vandoorne or Gasly. IMO, of course. But not exceptional

Russell's opposition in GP3 was weak.

Time will tell.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:01 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Latest for 2020

RBR Vettel and Max
Mercedes Hamilton and Ricciardo
Ferrari Alonso and Leclerc
HAAS Magnussen and Wehrlein
Renault Bottas and Hulk
Mclaren as it is
Sauber Alfa as it is
Sport Pesa etc. as it is
Torro Rosso as it is
Williams as it is

Source: trust.me ;)



So no Ocon next year eh?

Oh well, that's his F1 career done & dusted then

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:45 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Latest for 2020

RBR Vettel and Max
Mercedes Hamilton and Ricciardo
Ferrari Alonso and Leclerc
HAAS Magnussen and Wehrlein
Renault Bottas and Hulk
Mclaren as it is
Sauber Alfa as it is
Sport Pesa etc. as it is
Torro Rosso as it is
Williams as it is

Source: trust.me ;)



So no Ocon next year eh?

Oh well, that's his F1 career done & dusted then


Mate so You trust him? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:25 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Latest for 2020

RBR Vettel and Max
Mercedes Hamilton and Ricciardo
Ferrari Alonso and Leclerc
HAAS Magnussen and Wehrlein
Renault Bottas and Hulk
Mclaren as it is
Sauber Alfa as it is
Sport Pesa etc. as it is
Torro Rosso as it is
Williams as it is

Source: trust.me ;)



So no Ocon next year eh?

Oh well, that's his F1 career done & dusted then


Mate so You trust him? :lol:


No mate, I didn't take it seriously at all.

Just doing a bit of angling ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:04 pm 
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A question to all those who feel Bottas deserves to stay in Mercedes as it will preserve team harmony!

Had Bottas been much closer to Hamilton or maybe was even ahead of Hamilton in the standings, wouldn't he be more aggressive in his driving to preserve the title lead & fight for the hypothetical title? Bottas has never fought it out Hamilton for the title in the last 2 years like how it was Rosberg Vs. Hamilton in 2016. A real title fight among team mates seldom keeps team harmony.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:06 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
My predictions for silly season...

Vettel to RBR

Bottas to Ferrari

Ricciardo to Mercedes

Ocon to Renault

I'm pretty sure Vettel has a buy out clause in his contract, as does Ricciardo. Vettel has been seen having a lot of meetings with Horner this year, and must be sick of Ferrari by now.

Ricciardo will be massively regretting joining Renault, and if an opportunity comes up to join Mercedes, he won't hesitate. I can't see Ricciardo wanting to join Ferrari, especially after their stuff ups from 2017 through to 2019. I doubt he'd be welcome back at RBR - that bridge is burnt. He was never close, or as favoured by Marko or Horner, as Verstappen and Vettel were/are.

I highly doubt Ocon will get a chance to join Mercedes - I honestly don't think he's better than Bottas, and I doubt he's a team player based on prior issues with Perez at Force India.

I think Hulkenberg will do a sideways move to HAAS. Grosjean will be out (or move to Renault in a direct seat swap).


I think Ricciardo and Red Bull are still pretty close. I have seen images on thé F1 Instagram of Ricciardo that Christian Horner has liked. One recently with Dan and Max together.
Red Bull were hurt he jumped ship. But what has made them like Dan even more is seeing how badly his replacement has been.
If Max doesn’t win a championship next year and moves to another team, I would not be surprised to see Dan re-sign for Red Bull in 2021.
(Based on thé Red Bull driver program looking in the worst shape in a long time)

And Merc could have had Dan in 2019, so I rule that out for 2020. Ferrari maybe. Hè is 100% Italian heritage, born and raised in Australia. He is a great fit for Ferrari.

I highly doubt VEttel going head to head with Max. He would be better doing a Kimi and doing well in a smaller team showing up a rookie.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Posts: 4768
Jezza13 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Latest for 2020

RBR Vettel and Max
Mercedes Hamilton and Ricciardo
Ferrari Alonso and Leclerc
HAAS Magnussen and Wehrlein
Renault Bottas and Hulk
Mclaren as it is
Sauber Alfa as it is
Sport Pesa etc. as it is
Torro Rosso as it is
Williams as it is

Source: trust.me ;)



So no Ocon next year eh?

Oh well, that's his F1 career done & dusted then


Mate so You trust him? :lol:


No mate, I didn't take it seriously at all.

Just doing a bit of angling ;)

There was an abvious ;) in my post, so no, no one need to trust that list, not even me. :-P
It was a dig at the fantasies given by others.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:00 pm 
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OK here goes -

Mercedes - Hamilton/Ocon
Ferrari - Vettel/Leclerc
Red Bull - Verstappen/Kvyat
Mclaren - Sainz/Norris
Renault - Ricciardo/Bottas
STR - Albon/Vips
Alfa Romeo - Raikkonen/Giovinazzi
Racing Point - Perez/Stroll
Haas - Magnussen/Hulkenberg
Williams - Russell/Latiffi

I apologise to Ocon for ruining his chances with 4 taps of my keyboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:22 pm 
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As far as I can understand after reading 2 paid articles at Autosport based on Mercedes should select Bottas or Ocon - it's really close & it all depends on what Mercedes want in the short term & long term.

1 article had various factors such as Ruthlessness, Race pace, Race-craft, Teamwork, Long term prospect etc. were either Ocon scored over Bottas or Vice versa. Mercedes are in such deep thought because they know Ocon's potential & want to give him a chance. Even if he is loaned to another team, no team will take him for 1 year only but 2 or 3 years which probably Wolff doesn't want.

People may think it's easy for Mercedes to continue with Bottas. Had this been the case, the announcement would've been made already but team harmony is not the sole priority of the deep thinking. The author (Edd Straw) made 1 interesting point. Ferrari sooner or later will get strong & so is Red Bull. If in 2020 Bottas continue with the 2 main rival team having improved as well & Gasly replaced by a stronger driver, would Bottas be a ruthless driver enough to defend Hamilton as the 2nd driver & still help Mercedes bag the WCC title. The author thinks not.

Ocon had certain points in his favour such as race pace (tyre management), race craft etc. A small excerpt from the article regarding race pace comparison of the two:

'The adaptability of Ocon's driving style, which as a default tends to be smooth, carrying speed into the corner, helps this whereas Bottas tends towards a slightly longer loading of the rubber compared to Hamilton's ideal.'

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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:51 pm 
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Bottas must leave for his own good. There will be some good seats open next year. Not a good plan to be beaten for 4 years straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly Season 2020!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:26 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
As far as I can understand after reading 2 paid articles at Autosport based on Mercedes should select Bottas or Ocon - it's really close & it all depends on what Mercedes want in the short term & long term.

1 article had various factors such as Ruthlessness, Race pace, Race-craft, Teamwork, Long term prospect etc. were either Ocon scored over Bottas or Vice versa. Mercedes are in such deep thought because they know Ocon's potential & want to give him a chance. Even if he is loaned to another team, no team will take him for 1 year only but 2 or 3 years which probably Wolff doesn't want.

People may think it's easy for Mercedes to continue with Bottas. Had this been the case, the announcement would've been made already but team harmony is not the sole priority of the deep thinking. The author (Edd Straw) made 1 interesting point. Ferrari sooner or later will get strong & so is Red Bull. If in 2020 Bottas continue with the 2 main rival team having improved as well & Gasly replaced by a stronger driver, would Bottas be a ruthless driver enough to defend Hamilton as the 2nd driver & still help Mercedes bag the WCC title. The author thinks not.

Ocon had certain points in his favour such as race pace (tyre management), race craft etc. A small excerpt from the article regarding race pace comparison of the two:

'The adaptability of Ocon's driving style, which as a default tends to be smooth, carrying speed into the corner, helps this whereas Bottas tends towards a slightly longer loading of the rubber compared to Hamilton's ideal.'


Good point!
Bottas’ 5th in the drivers championship in 2018 must be the sticking point. (Vs Lewis World Champion)
Bottas has upped his game a little, but it is still not enough.
Max is close to him in a car that has been clearly 3rd best at the start of the year.

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