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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:03 pm 
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Posts: 30710
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:

And unless you're a manufacturer, you're just not going to win, which means winners come from an ever-dwindling pool. There have always been different levels in F1 but to the best of my recollection never have there been so few different winners across such an extended period as there have been in the hybrid era. The lack of variety is something that is really beginning to gall for many


The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.

:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:17 pm
Posts: 235
pokerman wrote:
Altair wrote:
Reverse order grid...

Yes that would work well around Monaco and other tracks were you can't overtake.

Wait for 2021 rather than draconian regulations that most people do not want.

It would.

Mercedes Ferrari and red bull have the best cars? Prove it. Pass Pass it the best of the rest with your superior cars on hard to pass tracks. If they can't, those lesser teams can finally use the one aspect of F1 that has been hindering racing, the inability to pass, to score points.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 3089
Location: UK
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.


Ten years (and more) ago , I was hoping for a breakaway series, which never came. They gave more money and power to the already over-fed big teams, and the case was closed.
May be the breakaway should be discussed between the hopeless midfield teams, not the "historical" fat owners. What do they have to lose ?

Trouble is the breakaway was led by the big teams then, so we'd have had more of the same. And the smaller teams don't really have the clout to do it.

In the Brundle article I posted earlier he says the 2021 regs are already looking like being watered down as the big teams exert pressure to maintain their position. I honestly think as long as the teams have a say in the sport's future things will continue to get worse.

I would suggest F1 needs the following before even considering the next set of rules:
    1. Remove the teams from the decision-making process. The FA doesn't ask football teams how to make the rules, so I don't see why the FIA needs the teams' permission
    2. Publicly end the desire to make F1 "road relevant." All this is is an excuse for the manufacturers to invest billions as it justifies their R&D. Without this carrot, they are less likely to want to spend they way they do and it might level the playing field somewhat. Road relevance is an irrelevance that F1 does not need.

After that they should sit down and think of rules without worrying about what the teams think. It won't ever happen, though.


They've dawdled too much on these 2021 regs already. To attract new teams they needed to have them set 12 months ago.

Liberty just need to grow some balls. Design some regs that would be great for competition and slap them on the table in front of the teams. Then the teams can decide if they are going to take a fairy cakes or get off the pot. If that means the remaining teams running 3 cars until more teams join again (Which they will if Liberty can draw up a competitive and affordable formula) then so be it.

It's massively unhealthy for any competitors to have a say in defining the rules of the contest and even more unhealthy when it's only the have's of this world that get a say.

:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25092
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:

And unless you're a manufacturer, you're just not going to win, which means winners come from an ever-dwindling pool. There have always been different levels in F1 but to the best of my recollection never have there been so few different winners across such an extended period as there have been in the hybrid era. The lack of variety is something that is really beginning to gall for many


The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.

:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14845
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.


Ten years (and more) ago , I was hoping for a breakaway series, which never came. They gave more money and power to the already over-fed big teams, and the case was closed.
May be the breakaway should be discussed between the hopeless midfield teams, not the "historical" fat owners. What do they have to lose ?

Trouble is the breakaway was led by the big teams then, so we'd have had more of the same. And the smaller teams don't really have the clout to do it.

In the Brundle article I posted earlier he says the 2021 regs are already looking like being watered down as the big teams exert pressure to maintain their position. I honestly think as long as the teams have a say in the sport's future things will continue to get worse.

I would suggest F1 needs the following before even considering the next set of rules:
    1. Remove the teams from the decision-making process. The FA doesn't ask football teams how to make the rules, so I don't see why the FIA needs the teams' permission
    2. Publicly end the desire to make F1 "road relevant." All this is is an excuse for the manufacturers to invest billions as it justifies their R&D. Without this carrot, they are less likely to want to spend they way they do and it might level the playing field somewhat. Road relevance is an irrelevance that F1 does not need.

After that they should sit down and think of rules without worrying about what the teams think. It won't ever happen, though.


They've dawdled too much on these 2021 regs already. To attract new teams they needed to have them set 12 months ago.

Liberty just need to grow some balls. Design some regs that would be great for competition and slap them on the table in front of the teams. Then the teams can decide if they are going to take a fairy cakes or get off the pot. If that means the remaining teams running 3 cars until more teams join again (Which they will if Liberty can draw up a competitive and affordable formula) then so be it.

It's massively unhealthy for any competitors to have a say in defining the rules of the contest and even more unhealthy when it's only the have's of this world that get a say.

:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:03 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30710
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:

And unless you're a manufacturer, you're just not going to win, which means winners come from an ever-dwindling pool. There have always been different levels in F1 but to the best of my recollection never have there been so few different winners across such an extended period as there have been in the hybrid era. The lack of variety is something that is really beginning to gall for many


The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.

:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them

No I would say they are the main part of it, even with the new to be fairer 2021 regs Ferrari are going to get $40M in appearance money agreed to by all the teams such is how much Ferrari is valued to F1, a F1 of equal opportunity will never happen only a closer F1.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:06 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 30710
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Ten years (and more) ago , I was hoping for a breakaway series, which never came. They gave more money and power to the already over-fed big teams, and the case was closed.
May be the breakaway should be discussed between the hopeless midfield teams, not the "historical" fat owners. What do they have to lose ?

Trouble is the breakaway was led by the big teams then, so we'd have had more of the same. And the smaller teams don't really have the clout to do it.

In the Brundle article I posted earlier he says the 2021 regs are already looking like being watered down as the big teams exert pressure to maintain their position. I honestly think as long as the teams have a say in the sport's future things will continue to get worse.

I would suggest F1 needs the following before even considering the next set of rules:
    1. Remove the teams from the decision-making process. The FA doesn't ask football teams how to make the rules, so I don't see why the FIA needs the teams' permission
    2. Publicly end the desire to make F1 "road relevant." All this is is an excuse for the manufacturers to invest billions as it justifies their R&D. Without this carrot, they are less likely to want to spend they way they do and it might level the playing field somewhat. Road relevance is an irrelevance that F1 does not need.

After that they should sit down and think of rules without worrying about what the teams think. It won't ever happen, though.


They've dawdled too much on these 2021 regs already. To attract new teams they needed to have them set 12 months ago.

Liberty just need to grow some balls. Design some regs that would be great for competition and slap them on the table in front of the teams. Then the teams can decide if they are going to take a fairy cakes or get off the pot. If that means the remaining teams running 3 cars until more teams join again (Which they will if Liberty can draw up a competitive and affordable formula) then so be it.

It's massively unhealthy for any competitors to have a say in defining the rules of the contest and even more unhealthy when it's only the have's of this world that get a say.

:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.

There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:35 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25092
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Trouble is the breakaway was led by the big teams then, so we'd have had more of the same. And the smaller teams don't really have the clout to do it.

In the Brundle article I posted earlier he says the 2021 regs are already looking like being watered down as the big teams exert pressure to maintain their position. I honestly think as long as the teams have a say in the sport's future things will continue to get worse.

I would suggest F1 needs the following before even considering the next set of rules:
    1. Remove the teams from the decision-making process. The FA doesn't ask football teams how to make the rules, so I don't see why the FIA needs the teams' permission
    2. Publicly end the desire to make F1 "road relevant." All this is is an excuse for the manufacturers to invest billions as it justifies their R&D. Without this carrot, they are less likely to want to spend they way they do and it might level the playing field somewhat. Road relevance is an irrelevance that F1 does not need.

After that they should sit down and think of rules without worrying about what the teams think. It won't ever happen, though.


They've dawdled too much on these 2021 regs already. To attract new teams they needed to have them set 12 months ago.

Liberty just need to grow some balls. Design some regs that would be great for competition and slap them on the table in front of the teams. Then the teams can decide if they are going to take a fairy cakes or get off the pot. If that means the remaining teams running 3 cars until more teams join again (Which they will if Liberty can draw up a competitive and affordable formula) then so be it.

It's massively unhealthy for any competitors to have a say in defining the rules of the contest and even more unhealthy when it's only the have's of this world that get a say.

:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.

There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

The point most people have been making is that relatively recent changes are responsible for making F1 worse. So if someone's unhappy with specific teams now it doesn't necessarily follow that they have always been unhappy with them. Of course, they might be, but it's not a given


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25092
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.

:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them

No I would say they are the main part of it, even with the new to be fairer 2021 regs Ferrari are going to get $40M in appearance money agreed to by all the teams such is how much Ferrari is valued to F1, a F1 of equal opportunity will never happen only a closer F1.

While I agree that's a big issue, I don't personally see it as the main issue with F1 today. And the post which I was agreeing with and which you responded to makes it clear that discriminatory prize money is merely one of the big bones of contention. So on that basis I don't agree with you that the main problem will always be Ferrari. They are one of the factors, certainly, but by no means the only one


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14845
pokerman wrote:
There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?


Why would you think that?

I enjoy F1 more when there is close competition and we can go from race to race not knowing what the order at the front will be.

Take out Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull and we would have that now and would have had it last season.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:31 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 712
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.


The main problem with F1 (and sadly, just the main, not the only one), is the cars. Too big, fitted with useless and futureless PU, wrongly sophisticated, and remote controlled (through the remote controlled drivers, nowadays).
As someone wrote it here, it's certainly engineers wet dreams, but, dare I say, the regulations were poorly thought and so the results are poorly designed (no, I won't start a discussion about concept and design philosophy, but, to make it short, when it's too sophisticated, you just failed).

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1632
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.


The main problem with F1 (and sadly, just the main, not the only one), is the cars. Too big, fitted with useless and futureless PU, wrongly sophisticated, and remote controlled (through the remote controlled drivers, nowadays).
As someone wrote it here, it's certainly engineers wet dreams, but, dare I say, the regulations were poorly thought and so the results are poorly designed (no, I won't start a discussion about concept and design philosophy, but, to make it short, when it's too sophisticated, you just failed).


Pretty much that. :thumbup:

Apparently they have done away with the profiled clutches this year, so the clutch has to be linear. They had been profiling them so the driver needed less skill to release the clutch.
We have had automated braking systems so the driver cannot lock up the brakes and cause a flat spot, automatic gear changes so he can't mess that up, automated throttle control so he can't spin the wheels, automated suspension. All of it the frontier of technology, to prove that a computer can drive better than a man. The only thing they have left the driver in control of is steering.

They could try to write regulations to make the best race car - for racing! A car that was relatively cheap to build, was very fast, light, agile and was probably close in performance to the other cars on the grid (because it is about people racing people). They could for sure regulate for faster cars, but then they wouldn't necessarily be good race cars.
Normally aspirated cars for example. Light, simple, cheap - and because you have to suck the air into the engine, they are fairly self-regulating in terms of power - the regulations become a lot simpler to write. Flat bottomed cars - another simple rule.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:27 am 
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Location: Far side of Koozebane
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:

And unless you're a manufacturer, you're just not going to win, which means winners come from an ever-dwindling pool. There have always been different levels in F1 but to the best of my recollection never have there been so few different winners across such an extended period as there have been in the hybrid era. The lack of variety is something that is really beginning to gall for many


The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.

:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them


Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

_________________
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Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 315 trophies available, 23 won

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:41 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
The big issue here is what's stopping the privateer / non factory teams from competing for wins. It's not bad luck, lack of resources or inferior personnel or plant. The problem is actually structural.

Thanks to these disgraceful engines & accompanying regulations that surround them, the discriminatory prize money distribution process & the control they have on the sport, the factory / manufacturer team have virtually turned F1 into a closed shop where they're almost guaranteed to be unchallenged for podium positions. They've locked the doors to the asylum & said to the other inmates" Right, we're in control now".

The result of this means those team reap most of the rewards when it comes to the prize money & gives them a rails run in the fight for the sponsorship dollar. It allows them to have the power & influence at the negotiation table with the FIA & LM plus also the ability to sign & corral the best young drivers via their various YDP's. All this means the gap between the between the have's & have not's remains unchanged, ensuring the vicious circle continues to roll on.

I've never held out much hope on the 2021 regs being the new dawn of F1 some people seem to think they'll be. The factory teams don't want to surrender control of the sport they spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying.

It's my belief this sport is on the precipice of being terminal & what happens in 2021 could be the final diagnosis. To save the sport & protect their investment, LM might need to make some tough decisions if the top teams don't want to play ball.

:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them


Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore

I was thinking more a certain diminutive elderly former 2nd hand car salesman as the creator of these beasts. He started this rot by throwing millions to the factory backed teams in return for their signatures on contracts and leaving the privateers to scrounge around in the dirt like 2nd class peasants.

It's ironic that Bernie's climb up the F1 ladder included him leading the Formula One Constructor Association (FOCA) teams, which were privateer teams, against the Jean -Marie Balestre led Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA), the governing body of F1 that had the support of the 3 manufacturer teams in the sport at the time (Ferrari, Alfa & Renault), in the FISA - FOCA war of the early 80"s, and it ended with him virtually selling the soul of the sport to manufacturers at the behest of the group that has been the backbone of the sport pretty much since 1950, that being the privateer teams.

There's certainly a sense of Deja vu when one reads about how the war started on Wikipedia.

The beginnings of the dispute are numerous, and many of the underlying reasons may be lost in history. The teams (excepting Ferrari and the other major manufacturers – Renault and Alfa Romeo in particular) were of the opinion that their rights and ability to compete against the larger and better funded teams were being negatively affected by a perceived bias on the part of FISA, the controlling organisation, toward the major manufacturers.

_________________
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Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 315 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:43 am 
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I agree the cars have became too physically big and too aero complex. Limiting what designers can do with all the little curves, flaps, holes, and the wings. It will have 2 effects - make the sport cheaper and more competitive! These things do nothing for the viewer, or greater automotive industry. If anything less planted cars will make the show better!

Compensate by increasing mechanical grip and engine power so times remain roughly the same. Loosen engine regs to see genuine innovation! I am no expert in this field but lets see suppliers able to go down different development routes with different things.

This era has seen performance locked in like never before, and after about 2016 it became obvious there was going to be no real change in the pecking order until at least 2021. Yeah Ferrari and Merc might exchange bragging rights to the fastest car a few times, but thats as exciting as it is going to get. With 2021 on the horizon, Ferrari/Red Bull may have 1 eye on that now rather than try close the gap so I don't forecast Mercedes losing their place on top until then.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:23 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore

I was thinking more a certain diminutive elderly former 2nd hand car salesman as the creator of these beasts. He started this rot by throwing millions to the factory backed teams in return for their signatures on contracts and leaving the privateers to scrounge around in the dirt like 2nd class peasants.

It's ironic that Bernie's climb up the F1 ladder included him leading the Formula One Constructor Association (FOCA) teams, which were privateer teams, against the Jean -Marie Balestre led Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA), the governing body of F1 that had the support of the 3 manufacturer teams in the sport at the time (Ferrari, Alfa & Renault), in the FISA - FOCA war of the early 80"s, and it ended with him virtually selling the soul of the sport to manufacturers at the behest of the group that has been the backbone of the sport pretty much since 1950, that being the privateer teams.

There's certainly a sense of Deja vu when one reads about how the war started on Wikipedia.

The beginnings of the dispute are numerous, and many of the underlying reasons may be lost in history. The teams (excepting Ferrari and the other major manufacturers – Renault and Alfa Romeo in particular) were of the opinion that their rights and ability to compete against the larger and better funded teams were being negatively affected by a perceived bias on the part of FISA, the controlling organisation, toward the major manufacturers.

Agree that Bernie laid the foundation with his divide and conquer philosophy.

But the seeds of modern F1 were sewn when they voted to bring in the hybrids and everything associated with that. I remember an interview with Whitmarsh where he said they considered twin-turbos at one point as there were concerns about the expense and complications of hybrids, but initially Renault threatening to pull out and then Mercedes falling behind them in wanting to make it "road relevant" forced them all down the hybrid route and the rest is history. Now we have a situation where the manufacturers hold an unprecedented level of power simply by virtue of the fact that nobody but them can either afford or otherwise have the knowledge to build these PUs. F1 can't afford for any of them to pull out because that would concentrate the power even further in the remaining ones as nobody is interested in replacing them. So now if the big boys make a noise they generally get their way.

And I genuinely think that as long as they keep the hybrid technology then that status quo will remain. By putting the tech out of the reach of independents they have changed the DNA of F1 to make it a closed club. Revenue distribution and other fixes are peripheral to that and they need to break the will of the manufacturers by ditching that path, either by mandating some other format or, preferably, by opening up the rules to allow other types of power units to compete in order to attract other participants and take the power away from the teams.

History has shown us that the teams will always vote in their own self-interest rather than that of F1 itself. I hesitate to use absolutes but in this instance I'll make an exception and say that IMO the only way F1 will ever get out of the mess it's in is to take the teams out of the decision-making equation.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:49 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They've dawdled too much on these 2021 regs already. To attract new teams they needed to have them set 12 months ago.

Liberty just need to grow some balls. Design some regs that would be great for competition and slap them on the table in front of the teams. Then the teams can decide if they are going to take a fairy cakes or get off the pot. If that means the remaining teams running 3 cars until more teams join again (Which they will if Liberty can draw up a competitive and affordable formula) then so be it.

It's massively unhealthy for any competitors to have a say in defining the rules of the contest and even more unhealthy when it's only the have's of this world that get a say.

:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.

There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

The point most people have been making is that relatively recent changes are responsible for making F1 worse. So if someone's unhappy with specific teams now it doesn't necessarily follow that they have always been unhappy with them. Of course, they might be, but it's not a given

F1 is mainly worse in competitiveness because it's become more and more professional over the years, when do drivers ever win titles without being in the best or close to best car, there has always been the haves and have nots, it's not like changes are not around the corner in 2021.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
:thumbup:

Fully agree that the Manufacturers' stranglehold on the sport is one of the biggest issues, but until the FIA and LM grow a pair that won't change.

The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them

No I would say they are the main part of it, even with the new to be fairer 2021 regs Ferrari are going to get $40M in appearance money agreed to by all the teams such is how much Ferrari is valued to F1, a F1 of equal opportunity will never happen only a closer F1.

While I agree that's a big issue, I don't personally see it as the main issue with F1 today. And the post which I was agreeing with and which you responded to makes it clear that discriminatory prize money is merely one of the big bones of contention. So on that basis I don't agree with you that the main problem will always be Ferrari. They are one of the factors, certainly, but by no means the only one

Ferrari will always be a blocker to a utopian F1.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:57 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore

I was thinking more a certain diminutive elderly former 2nd hand car salesman as the creator of these beasts. He started this rot by throwing millions to the factory backed teams in return for their signatures on contracts and leaving the privateers to scrounge around in the dirt like 2nd class peasants.

It's ironic that Bernie's climb up the F1 ladder included him leading the Formula One Constructor Association (FOCA) teams, which were privateer teams, against the Jean -Marie Balestre led Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA), the governing body of F1 that had the support of the 3 manufacturer teams in the sport at the time (Ferrari, Alfa & Renault), in the FISA - FOCA war of the early 80"s, and it ended with him virtually selling the soul of the sport to manufacturers at the behest of the group that has been the backbone of the sport pretty much since 1950, that being the privateer teams.

There's certainly a sense of Deja vu when one reads about how the war started on Wikipedia.

The beginnings of the dispute are numerous, and many of the underlying reasons may be lost in history. The teams (excepting Ferrari and the other major manufacturers – Renault and Alfa Romeo in particular) were of the opinion that their rights and ability to compete against the larger and better funded teams were being negatively affected by a perceived bias on the part of FISA, the controlling organisation, toward the major manufacturers.

Agree that Bernie laid the foundation with his divide and conquer philosophy.

But the seeds of modern F1 were sewn when they voted to bring in the hybrids and everything associated with that. I remember an interview with Whitmarsh where he said they considered twin-turbos at one point as there were concerns about the expense and complications of hybrids, but initially Renault threatening to pull out and then Mercedes falling behind them in wanting to make it "road relevant" forced them all down the hybrid route and the rest is history. Now we have a situation where the manufacturers hold an unprecedented level of power simply by virtue of the fact that nobody but them can either afford or otherwise have the knowledge to build these PUs. F1 can't afford for any of them to pull out because that would concentrate the power even further in the remaining ones as nobody is interested in replacing them. So now if the big boys make a noise they generally get their way.

And I genuinely think that as long as they keep the hybrid technology then that status quo will remain. By putting the tech out of the reach of independents they have changed the DNA of F1 to make it a closed club. Revenue distribution and other fixes are peripheral to that and they need to break the will of the manufacturers by ditching that path, either by mandating some other format or, preferably, by opening up the rules to allow other types of power units to compete in order to attract other participants and take the power away from the teams.

History has shown us that the teams will always vote in their own self-interest rather than that of F1 itself. I hesitate to use absolutes but in this instance I'll make an exception and say that IMO the only way F1 will ever get out of the mess it's in is to take the teams out of the decision-making equation.


You'll get no argument from me anything you've said there Zoue.

Unfortunately we've seen the strength of Liberty's backbone when, just after buying the commercial rights off Bernie, they floated the desire to change the engine formula in 2021. It lasted all of 5 minutes until the manufacturer teams said "Nah, we don't think so", and Liberty went to jelly & we've heard nothing since.

I'll go so far as to say that while these engines remain in the sport, while Liberty doesn't want to rattle any cages & continues to pander to the manufacturers, the sport will die a slow death.

_________________
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Spain- 19) - 123 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 315 trophies available, 23 won

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore

I was thinking more a certain diminutive elderly former 2nd hand car salesman as the creator of these beasts. He started this rot by throwing millions to the factory backed teams in return for their signatures on contracts and leaving the privateers to scrounge around in the dirt like 2nd class peasants.

It's ironic that Bernie's climb up the F1 ladder included him leading the Formula One Constructor Association (FOCA) teams, which were privateer teams, against the Jean -Marie Balestre led Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA), the governing body of F1 that had the support of the 3 manufacturer teams in the sport at the time (Ferrari, Alfa & Renault), in the FISA - FOCA war of the early 80"s, and it ended with him virtually selling the soul of the sport to manufacturers at the behest of the group that has been the backbone of the sport pretty much since 1950, that being the privateer teams.

There's certainly a sense of Deja vu when one reads about how the war started on Wikipedia.

The beginnings of the dispute are numerous, and many of the underlying reasons may be lost in history. The teams (excepting Ferrari and the other major manufacturers – Renault and Alfa Romeo in particular) were of the opinion that their rights and ability to compete against the larger and better funded teams were being negatively affected by a perceived bias on the part of FISA, the controlling organisation, toward the major manufacturers.

Agree that Bernie laid the foundation with his divide and conquer philosophy.

But the seeds of modern F1 were sewn when they voted to bring in the hybrids and everything associated with that. I remember an interview with Whitmarsh where he said they considered twin-turbos at one point as there were concerns about the expense and complications of hybrids, but initially Renault threatening to pull out and then Mercedes falling behind them in wanting to make it "road relevant" forced them all down the hybrid route and the rest is history. Now we have a situation where the manufacturers hold an unprecedented level of power simply by virtue of the fact that nobody but them can either afford or otherwise have the knowledge to build these PUs. F1 can't afford for any of them to pull out because that would concentrate the power even further in the remaining ones as nobody is interested in replacing them. So now if the big boys make a noise they generally get their way.

And I genuinely think that as long as they keep the hybrid technology then that status quo will remain. By putting the tech out of the reach of independents they have changed the DNA of F1 to make it a closed club. Revenue distribution and other fixes are peripheral to that and they need to break the will of the manufacturers by ditching that path, either by mandating some other format or, preferably, by opening up the rules to allow other types of power units to compete in order to attract other participants and take the power away from the teams.

History has shown us that the teams will always vote in their own self-interest rather than that of F1 itself. I hesitate to use absolutes but in this instance I'll make an exception and say that IMO the only way F1 will ever get out of the mess it's in is to take the teams out of the decision-making equation.


You'll get no argument from me anything you've said there Zoue.

Unfortunately we've seen the strength of Liberty's backbone when, just after buying the commercial rights off Bernie, they floated the desire to change the engine formula in 2021. It lasted all of 5 minutes until the manufacturer teams said "Nah, we don't think so", and Liberty went to jelly & we've heard nothing since.

I'll go so far as to say that while these engines remain in the sport, while Liberty doesn't want to rattle any cages & continues to pander to the manufacturers, the sport will die a slow death.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.
They are certainly part of it, along with the other manufacturers. Self interest rules for all of them

No I would say they are the main part of it, even with the new to be fairer 2021 regs Ferrari are going to get $40M in appearance money agreed to by all the teams such is how much Ferrari is valued to F1, a F1 of equal opportunity will never happen only a closer F1.

While I agree that's a big issue, I don't personally see it as the main issue with F1 today. And the post which I was agreeing with and which you responded to makes it clear that discriminatory prize money is merely one of the big bones of contention. So on that basis I don't agree with you that the main problem will always be Ferrari. They are one of the factors, certainly, but by no means the only one

Ferrari will always be a blocker to a utopian F1.

Well I could just repeat my post too but not sure what that achieves? :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.

There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

The point most people have been making is that relatively recent changes are responsible for making F1 worse. So if someone's unhappy with specific teams now it doesn't necessarily follow that they have always been unhappy with them. Of course, they might be, but it's not a given

F1 is mainly worse in competitiveness because it's become more and more professional over the years, when do drivers ever win titles without being in the best or close to best car, there has always been the haves and have nots, it's not like changes are not around the corner in 2021.

I don't agree. I think F1 is worse in competitiveness because unless you're a manufacturer team you have next to no chance and there are only four of those so the odds shrink even further.

And judging by Brundle's article outlined above the teams are already putting the kybosh on the proposed changes and they are likely to be considerably watered down so the status quo remains. And so it will be indefinitely until the FIA/LM grow at least one spine between them


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:08 pm 
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I don't think Ferrari are an issue at this point. You draw up a set of rules and Ferrari can either play by them or go and do something else. I think what F1 is currently going through is worse than an F1 without Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?


Why would you think that?

I enjoy F1 more when there is close competition and we can go from race to race not knowing what the order at the front will be.

Take out Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull and we would have that now and would have had it last season.

How many years have we not known the order at the front if we take away the randomness of race fuelled qualifying which would last until the first pit stop or the lottery of the Pirelli cheese tyres when they first came on board?

Most randomness was created by the absurdity of the rules in recent years, creating ways to try and nobble the best cars.

What we have now at the front is incredible professionalism were the teams now are more on top of things then they ever were before, it was only a few years ago that a dysfunctional team like McLaren were a top team.

They are looking to improve things for 2021 certain things are locked in until then, in the meantime it seems that some will do anything to stop Mercedes winning, reverse grids etc, no more qualifying which is in the DNA of F1, then F1 is no longer F1 just some kind of WWE version of it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.


The main problem with F1 (and sadly, just the main, not the only one), is the cars. Too big, fitted with useless and futureless PU, wrongly sophisticated, and remote controlled (through the remote controlled drivers, nowadays).
As someone wrote it here, it's certainly engineers wet dreams, but, dare I say, the regulations were poorly thought and so the results are poorly designed (no, I won't start a discussion about concept and design philosophy, but, to make it short, when it's too sophisticated, you just failed).

F1 has always been an engineering exercise, both the cars and the drivers are the stars, you can always watch Indycars.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?


Why would you think that?

I enjoy F1 more when there is close competition and we can go from race to race not knowing what the order at the front will be.

Take out Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull and we would have that now and would have had it last season.

How many years have we not known the order at the front if we take away the randomness of race fuelled qualifying which would last until the first pit stop or the lottery of the Pirelli cheese tyres when they first came on board?

Most randomness was created by the absurdity of the rules in recent years, creating ways to try and nobble the best cars.

What we have now at the front is incredible professionalism were the teams now are more on top of things then they ever were before, it was only a few years ago that a dysfunctional team like McLaren were a top team.

They are looking to improve things for 2021 certain things are locked in until then, in the meantime it seems that some will do anything to stop Mercedes winning, reverse grids etc, no more qualifying which is in the DNA of F1, then F1 is no longer F1 just some kind of WWE version of it.


Yep, just like they did with Ferrari in 2002 and this period has been going on far longer already.

It's about degrees. There has always been some stability at the front but previously other people stood a chance. A team could have a car suited to a particular track or conditions and be able to mix it up at the front.

Surely you can see the sport is much more exciting behind the front 3 teams?


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.


The main problem with F1 (and sadly, just the main, not the only one), is the cars. Too big, fitted with useless and futureless PU, wrongly sophisticated, and remote controlled (through the remote controlled drivers, nowadays).
As someone wrote it here, it's certainly engineers wet dreams, but, dare I say, the regulations were poorly thought and so the results are poorly designed (no, I won't start a discussion about concept and design philosophy, but, to make it short, when it's too sophisticated, you just failed).

F1 has always been an engineering exercise, both the cars and the drivers are the stars, you can always watch Indycars.

I don't think the solution to people saying they are not happy with the current state of F1 is to tell them to go and watch something else


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore

I was thinking more a certain diminutive elderly former 2nd hand car salesman as the creator of these beasts. He started this rot by throwing millions to the factory backed teams in return for their signatures on contracts and leaving the privateers to scrounge around in the dirt like 2nd class peasants.

It's ironic that Bernie's climb up the F1 ladder included him leading the Formula One Constructor Association (FOCA) teams, which were privateer teams, against the Jean -Marie Balestre led Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA), the governing body of F1 that had the support of the 3 manufacturer teams in the sport at the time (Ferrari, Alfa & Renault), in the FISA - FOCA war of the early 80"s, and it ended with him virtually selling the soul of the sport to manufacturers at the behest of the group that has been the backbone of the sport pretty much since 1950, that being the privateer teams.

There's certainly a sense of Deja vu when one reads about how the war started on Wikipedia.

The beginnings of the dispute are numerous, and many of the underlying reasons may be lost in history. The teams (excepting Ferrari and the other major manufacturers – Renault and Alfa Romeo in particular) were of the opinion that their rights and ability to compete against the larger and better funded teams were being negatively affected by a perceived bias on the part of FISA, the controlling organisation, toward the major manufacturers.

Agree that Bernie laid the foundation with his divide and conquer philosophy.

But the seeds of modern F1 were sewn when they voted to bring in the hybrids and everything associated with that. I remember an interview with Whitmarsh where he said they considered twin-turbos at one point as there were concerns about the expense and complications of hybrids, but initially Renault threatening to pull out and then Mercedes falling behind them in wanting to make it "road relevant" forced them all down the hybrid route and the rest is history. Now we have a situation where the manufacturers hold an unprecedented level of power simply by virtue of the fact that nobody but them can either afford or otherwise have the knowledge to build these PUs. F1 can't afford for any of them to pull out because that would concentrate the power even further in the remaining ones as nobody is interested in replacing them. So now if the big boys make a noise they generally get their way.

And I genuinely think that as long as they keep the hybrid technology then that status quo will remain. By putting the tech out of the reach of independents they have changed the DNA of F1 to make it a closed club. Revenue distribution and other fixes are peripheral to that and they need to break the will of the manufacturers by ditching that path, either by mandating some other format or, preferably, by opening up the rules to allow other types of power units to compete in order to attract other participants and take the power away from the teams.

History has shown us that the teams will always vote in their own self-interest rather than that of F1 itself. I hesitate to use absolutes but in this instance I'll make an exception and say that IMO the only way F1 will ever get out of the mess it's in is to take the teams out of the decision-making equation.

It was Jean Todt that initially wanted the green hybrid engines after the engine manufacturers initially wanted twin turbos and only then did Renault put their weight behind it, but keep putting the knife into the manufacturers, also the biggest disparity in respect to the pecking order of the teams is the size of their budgets.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.

There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

The point most people have been making is that relatively recent changes are responsible for making F1 worse. So if someone's unhappy with specific teams now it doesn't necessarily follow that they have always been unhappy with them. Of course, they might be, but it's not a given

F1 is mainly worse in competitiveness because it's become more and more professional over the years, when do drivers ever win titles without being in the best or close to best car, there has always been the haves and have nots, it's not like changes are not around the corner in 2021.

I don't agree. I think F1 is worse in competitiveness because unless you're a manufacturer team you have next to no chance and there are only four of those so the odds shrink even further.

And judging by Brundle's article outlined above the teams are already putting the kybosh on the proposed changes and they are likely to be considerably watered down so the status quo remains. And so it will be indefinitely until the FIA/LM grow at least one spine between them

Which has nothing to do with the engines, the kibosh will be about the budget caps.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think Ferrari are an issue at this point. You draw up a set of rules and Ferrari can either play by them or go and do something else. I think what F1 is currently going through is worse than an F1 without Ferrari.

They are having to pay Ferrari $40M a year to keep them in F1 but they will have no say in the future plans of F1?

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
j man wrote:
:thumbup:

It is a source of constant bemusement to me how many people believe that having famous automotive branding on the cars is more important than actually having a competitive racing series.

I am increasingly finding that I look forward to the F2 races more than the F1 now, it really is superb racing and entertainment. It has Pirelli tyres, DRS and races on the same circuits as F1 does; the only real differences are that the cars are the same and can follow each other more closely with their reduced aero complexlity. F1 doesn't need to go as far as having spec cars, but it does show how good things could be if the teams all competed on a level playing field. I genuinely believe that if you removed F1 altogether and rebranded F2 as motorsport's premier racing series, it would draw in more viewers within a few years just through quality of competition alone.


I would enjoy F1 a lot more right now without Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull. Last season would've been great and so would this one.

There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

The point most people have been making is that relatively recent changes are responsible for making F1 worse. So if someone's unhappy with specific teams now it doesn't necessarily follow that they have always been unhappy with them. Of course, they might be, but it's not a given

F1 is mainly worse in competitiveness because it's become more and more professional over the years, when do drivers ever win titles without being in the best or close to best car, there has always been the haves and have nots, it's not like changes are not around the corner in 2021.


The difference poker is that in years past, the have nots at least had a sporting chance to get to the top with a bit of drive, passion & a good does of luck. When guys like Williams, Dennis, Jordan, Ligier, Chapman, Tyrell, Oliver et al could design a car, go out & find an engine & if the stars aligned, maybe get a podium, a win or even a championship.

Take the 85 season for example. The engine suppliers were: Porsche, Ford, Renault, Honda, BMW, Hart, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, Motori Moderni & Zakspeed. The configurations were: 1.5Lt V6 turbo, 3.0Lt V8 N/A, 1.5Lt in-line 4 turbo, 1.5Lt V8 turbo, That's 10 suppliers & 4 configurations for 19 teams. Now granted some were very ordinary engines, & that's being kind, but a least there was the opportunity to maybe luck into a design that worked spring a surprise.

That can't happen now. The sport is so tightly wrapped up in regulations controlled by a select few teams that there's virtually zero opportunity for a midfield team to get anywhere near a win or a championship no matter how hard they work or how much luck they have.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?


Why would you think that?

I enjoy F1 more when there is close competition and we can go from race to race not knowing what the order at the front will be.

Take out Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull and we would have that now and would have had it last season.

How many years have we not known the order at the front if we take away the randomness of race fuelled qualifying which would last until the first pit stop or the lottery of the Pirelli cheese tyres when they first came on board?

Most randomness was created by the absurdity of the rules in recent years, creating ways to try and nobble the best cars.

What we have now at the front is incredible professionalism were the teams now are more on top of things then they ever were before, it was only a few years ago that a dysfunctional team like McLaren were a top team.

They are looking to improve things for 2021 certain things are locked in until then, in the meantime it seems that some will do anything to stop Mercedes winning, reverse grids etc, no more qualifying which is in the DNA of F1, then F1 is no longer F1 just some kind of WWE version of it.


Yep, just like they did with Ferrari in 2002 and this period has been going on far longer already.

It's about degrees. There has always been some stability at the front but previously other people stood a chance. A team could have a car suited to a particular track or conditions and be able to mix it up at the front.

Surely you can see the sport is much more exciting behind the front 3 teams?

This doesn't happen as much these days because the top teams have far more knowledge about such things, look how Mercedes have seemingly been able to design out some of the biggest flaws in previous cars.

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2019: Currently 34th

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.


The main problem with F1 (and sadly, just the main, not the only one), is the cars. Too big, fitted with useless and futureless PU, wrongly sophisticated, and remote controlled (through the remote controlled drivers, nowadays).
As someone wrote it here, it's certainly engineers wet dreams, but, dare I say, the regulations were poorly thought and so the results are poorly designed (no, I won't start a discussion about concept and design philosophy, but, to make it short, when it's too sophisticated, you just failed).

F1 has always been an engineering exercise, both the cars and the drivers are the stars, you can always watch Indycars.

I don't think the solution to people saying they are not happy with the current state of F1 is to tell them to go and watch something else

For me if people want to change F1 from it's core principles then that's not what I want, is F1 really so destitute, I don't see that apart from a few disgruntled fans?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Posts: 14845
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?


Why would you think that?

I enjoy F1 more when there is close competition and we can go from race to race not knowing what the order at the front will be.

Take out Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull and we would have that now and would have had it last season.

How many years have we not known the order at the front if we take away the randomness of race fuelled qualifying which would last until the first pit stop or the lottery of the Pirelli cheese tyres when they first came on board?

Most randomness was created by the absurdity of the rules in recent years, creating ways to try and nobble the best cars.

What we have now at the front is incredible professionalism were the teams now are more on top of things then they ever were before, it was only a few years ago that a dysfunctional team like McLaren were a top team.

They are looking to improve things for 2021 certain things are locked in until then, in the meantime it seems that some will do anything to stop Mercedes winning, reverse grids etc, no more qualifying which is in the DNA of F1, then F1 is no longer F1 just some kind of WWE version of it.


Yep, just like they did with Ferrari in 2002 and this period has been going on far longer already.

It's about degrees. There has always been some stability at the front but previously other people stood a chance. A team could have a car suited to a particular track or conditions and be able to mix it up at the front.

Surely you can see the sport is much more exciting behind the front 3 teams?

This doesn't happen as much these days because the top teams have far more knowledge about such things, look how Mercedes have seemingly been able to design out some of the biggest flaws in previous cars.


Yes, and that is a huge problem for the sport.

Surely you can see the sport is much more exciting behind the front 3 teams?


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:32 pm 
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Posts: 25092
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The main problem with your F1 utopia will always be Ferrari.


The main problem with F1 (and sadly, just the main, not the only one), is the cars. Too big, fitted with useless and futureless PU, wrongly sophisticated, and remote controlled (through the remote controlled drivers, nowadays).
As someone wrote it here, it's certainly engineers wet dreams, but, dare I say, the regulations were poorly thought and so the results are poorly designed (no, I won't start a discussion about concept and design philosophy, but, to make it short, when it's too sophisticated, you just failed).

F1 has always been an engineering exercise, both the cars and the drivers are the stars, you can always watch Indycars.

I don't think the solution to people saying they are not happy with the current state of F1 is to tell them to go and watch something else

For me if people want to change F1 from it's core principles then that's not what I want, is F1 really so destitute, I don't see that apart from a few disgruntled fans?

I think there's a strong argument to say F1 has already deviated quite strongly from its core principles and many are advocating a return back from that


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Yeah not sure the manufacturers are the root cause here.

Do we blame the beast for running rampant? Do we blame those who allow the beast to run rampant or do we blame those who created the beast in the first place?

I think in this instance I would lay a good part of the blame at the feet of the manufacturers. They're not averse to making threats if their position is threatened so I think they should take some responsibility for putting F1 in the situation it now finds itself in.

The FIA and LM should also take blame, of course, but to be fair it takes a strong will to ignore the nuclear button the top teams threaten F1 with at seemingly regular intervals and while I personally think they should it's not my multi-million dollar investment that may nosedive if things go pear-shaped. I think the teams, in particular the manufacturers have behaved disgracefully and they have their noses so deep in the trough that they can't see out of it anymore

I was thinking more a certain diminutive elderly former 2nd hand car salesman as the creator of these beasts. He started this rot by throwing millions to the factory backed teams in return for their signatures on contracts and leaving the privateers to scrounge around in the dirt like 2nd class peasants.

It's ironic that Bernie's climb up the F1 ladder included him leading the Formula One Constructor Association (FOCA) teams, which were privateer teams, against the Jean -Marie Balestre led Fédération Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA), the governing body of F1 that had the support of the 3 manufacturer teams in the sport at the time (Ferrari, Alfa & Renault), in the FISA - FOCA war of the early 80"s, and it ended with him virtually selling the soul of the sport to manufacturers at the behest of the group that has been the backbone of the sport pretty much since 1950, that being the privateer teams.

There's certainly a sense of Deja vu when one reads about how the war started on Wikipedia.

The beginnings of the dispute are numerous, and many of the underlying reasons may be lost in history. The teams (excepting Ferrari and the other major manufacturers – Renault and Alfa Romeo in particular) were of the opinion that their rights and ability to compete against the larger and better funded teams were being negatively affected by a perceived bias on the part of FISA, the controlling organisation, toward the major manufacturers.

Agree that Bernie laid the foundation with his divide and conquer philosophy.

But the seeds of modern F1 were sewn when they voted to bring in the hybrids and everything associated with that. I remember an interview with Whitmarsh where he said they considered twin-turbos at one point as there were concerns about the expense and complications of hybrids, but initially Renault threatening to pull out and then Mercedes falling behind them in wanting to make it "road relevant" forced them all down the hybrid route and the rest is history. Now we have a situation where the manufacturers hold an unprecedented level of power simply by virtue of the fact that nobody but them can either afford or otherwise have the knowledge to build these PUs. F1 can't afford for any of them to pull out because that would concentrate the power even further in the remaining ones as nobody is interested in replacing them. So now if the big boys make a noise they generally get their way.

And I genuinely think that as long as they keep the hybrid technology then that status quo will remain. By putting the tech out of the reach of independents they have changed the DNA of F1 to make it a closed club. Revenue distribution and other fixes are peripheral to that and they need to break the will of the manufacturers by ditching that path, either by mandating some other format or, preferably, by opening up the rules to allow other types of power units to compete in order to attract other participants and take the power away from the teams.

History has shown us that the teams will always vote in their own self-interest rather than that of F1 itself. I hesitate to use absolutes but in this instance I'll make an exception and say that IMO the only way F1 will ever get out of the mess it's in is to take the teams out of the decision-making equation.

It was Jean Todt that initially wanted the green hybrid engines after the engine manufacturers initially wanted twin turbos and only then did Renault put their weight behind it, but keep putting the knife into the manufacturers, also the biggest disparity in respect to the pecking order of the teams is the size of their budgets.

Renault threatened to pull out and that contributed heavily to F1 adopting the hybrid engines and afterwards Mercedes also admitted they were considering the same. And any proposed changes these days tend to be shot down by the big teams so the pecking order remains the same. There is a disparity in finances which absolutely does contribute to the pecking order but the biggest disparity is in whether or not you have an engine manufacturer's backing and without that your chances of winning are almost non-existent


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Posts: 25092
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There can't be many years when you have enjoyed F1 then?

The point most people have been making is that relatively recent changes are responsible for making F1 worse. So if someone's unhappy with specific teams now it doesn't necessarily follow that they have always been unhappy with them. Of course, they might be, but it's not a given

F1 is mainly worse in competitiveness because it's become more and more professional over the years, when do drivers ever win titles without being in the best or close to best car, there has always been the haves and have nots, it's not like changes are not around the corner in 2021.

I don't agree. I think F1 is worse in competitiveness because unless you're a manufacturer team you have next to no chance and there are only four of those so the odds shrink even further.

And judging by Brundle's article outlined above the teams are already putting the kybosh on the proposed changes and they are likely to be considerably watered down so the status quo remains. And so it will be indefinitely until the FIA/LM grow at least one spine between them

Which has nothing to do with the engines, the kibosh will be about the budget caps.
Brundle's article didn't mention budget caps and mentioned compromises, plural, so likely to be much more than just that. He talked about root and branch changes needed and I think that would be odd terminology to use if all you were talking about was budgets


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:03 pm 
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Altair wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Altair wrote:
Reverse order grid...

Yes that would work well around Monaco and other tracks were you can't overtake.

Wait for 2021 rather than draconian regulations that most people do not want.

It would.

Mercedes Ferrari and red bull have the best cars? Prove it. Pass Pass it the best of the rest with your superior cars on hard to pass tracks. If they can't, those lesser teams can finally use the one aspect of F1 that has been hindering racing, the inability to pass, to score points.

Races should be won on merit and not charity.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Why would you think that?

I enjoy F1 more when there is close competition and we can go from race to race not knowing what the order at the front will be.

Take out Merc, Ferrari and Red Bull and we would have that now and would have had it last season.

How many years have we not known the order at the front if we take away the randomness of race fuelled qualifying which would last until the first pit stop or the lottery of the Pirelli cheese tyres when they first came on board?

Most randomness was created by the absurdity of the rules in recent years, creating ways to try and nobble the best cars.

What we have now at the front is incredible professionalism were the teams now are more on top of things then they ever were before, it was only a few years ago that a dysfunctional team like McLaren were a top team.

They are looking to improve things for 2021 certain things are locked in until then, in the meantime it seems that some will do anything to stop Mercedes winning, reverse grids etc, no more qualifying which is in the DNA of F1, then F1 is no longer F1 just some kind of WWE version of it.


Yep, just like they did with Ferrari in 2002 and this period has been going on far longer already.

It's about degrees. There has always been some stability at the front but previously other people stood a chance. A team could have a car suited to a particular track or conditions and be able to mix it up at the front.

Surely you can see the sport is much more exciting behind the front 3 teams?

This doesn't happen as much these days because the top teams have far more knowledge about such things, look how Mercedes have seemingly been able to design out some of the biggest flaws in previous cars.


Yes, and that is a huge problem for the sport.

Surely you can see the sport is much more exciting behind the front 3 teams?

In a sporting contest you don't get rid of anyone on the grounds of them being too good, MotoGP would perhaps be that much better if they banned Marc Marquez?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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