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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:45 pm 
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On BBC Radio 4 this morning MW said M-B best ever. I’m no fan of MW, but he might be right. Consider the dominance, the time period and also: no cheating, no nominating one driver for maximum points, no ‘magic’ advantage (double diffuser, f-duct, blown diffuser, etc.), no endless testing or wind-tunnel work, not having a major tyre company design tyres for one driver’s preferences, and no endless protesting/wingeing. Just doing it right most of the time. Hope they don’t miss Niki too much.
Monaco could have been 1-2 if Max hadn’t driven into Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:47 pm 
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Well you'd have to add in protected by the rules for at least three of the years which no-one's had before, but otherwise I think there's a case for it certainly


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:27 am 
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They are the best ever by far, nobody had dominance like they have.
I don't think any amount of controversy should take any thing away from any team unless they broke the rules, and I don't recall the likes of Ferrari or red bull have
Merc were not completely clean as you put it though, they did have tyre gate, and complained about last years Ferrari engine, complained about thicker tyres that effected a change.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:20 am 
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It is seriously depressing how dominate they are.
The sport is dying because of it (well one of the reasons)
Yet, you cannot help admire them for being so consistent in getting everything right.
Unless they make a rubbish car on purpose the rest cannot catch up.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:56 am 
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Sutton wrote:
It is seriously depressing how dominate they are.
The sport is dying because of it (well one of the reasons)
Yet, you cannot help admire them for being so consistent in getting everything right.
Unless they make a rubbish car on purpose the rest cannot catch up.

I sincerely hope they do catch up.

As with previous years, I do not like someone being punished for doing a stellar job. This time though the difference is that they were somewhat protected by the frozen rules, while in the Ferrari years for example the focus was to stop Ferrari and MSC year after year by introducing new rules.

But, as with every series, time will be the catalyst. In time the others will catch up, someone always rises to the occasion.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 9:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Well you'd have to add in protected by the rules for at least three of the years which no-one's had before, but otherwise I think there's a case for it certainly


Yeah while the way the current rule are structured has helped them maintain their dominance, you've got to hand it to Merc for getting the jump on the others in the first place.

Are they the best ever? I suppose if anyone's in a position to make that call it'd be Murray Walker but i'm not convinced they are the best. Disregarding the 1954-55 version, Merc have only been part of the sport for 10 of it's 69 year history & pretty much from the day they entered the sport as a competitive team in 2010 their sights were set on one target & one target only, the 2014 reg changes.

They spent hundreds of millions of dollars & 3 yrs pretty much solely focused on the new regs at the cost of any hope for success in 2011, 2012 & 2013. With every other team focusing on improving this years car or designing next years, Merc were well down the development path by the time Ferrari & Renault got their acts together developing the engine. Merc also, with Ferrari, had the benefit of being able to build both the engine & the chassis, which is a big advantage.

Once the 2014 season started, they were way ahead of any other team & while they've stayed the partly because of a good development program, there can be no denying the restrictions on development as well as their influence & power in the sport has helped them too.

Merc have shown themselves to be the best team in this era. I'd like to see them hang around for a while longer & see how they handle an engine regs change or 2 before I call them the best team ever. I'd probably still put Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, & maybe even Lotus above them if were talking the best in the history of the sport.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:04 am 
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ACBC wrote:
On BBC Radio 4 this morning MW said M-B best ever. I’m no fan of MW, but he might be right. Consider the dominance, the time period and also: no cheating, no nominating one driver for maximum points, no ‘magic’ advantage (double diffuser, f-duct, blown diffuser, etc.), no endless testing or wind-tunnel work, not having a major tyre company design tyres for one driver’s preferences, and no endless protesting/wingeing. Just doing it right most of the time. Hope they don’t miss Niki too much.
Monaco could have been 1-2 if Max hadn’t driven into Bottas.


If those are magic advantages then Mercedes have had several during this period. They brought lean burn and oil burn to the engine side which was more dominant than any of those advantages in 2014-2016 and FRIC/HPC suspensions at differing times on the car side.

They've also raised the budget to the highest ever to 500m and have twice the manpower of Red Bull in the aero department. They along with Red Bull were among the first to have these so called full chassis dyno's that can be joined to their simulator as well so they can effectively test 24/7, only 4 teams have access to one I believe (RB,Merc,Ferrari and STR-Honda's in Sakura).

I'm pretty sure I've seen whinging, driver preference at certain times and I recall an illegal tyre test as well so another couple on your list aren't entirely accurate too. (Whinging, protesting,cheating and nominating one driver for maximum points)

I do agree with Murray though, I think they are the best but I don't think they've done anything differently, just bigger (money) and better (Engineering inventiveness especially on the engine side but also with suspensions). The complexity of these engines keeping potential rival teams down, narrow regulations and having one of if not the best drivers out there all ensured their chances were converted more often than not.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
ACBC wrote:
On BBC Radio 4 this morning MW said M-B best ever. I’m no fan of MW, but he might be right. Consider the dominance, the time period and also: no cheating, no nominating one driver for maximum points, no ‘magic’ advantage (double diffuser, f-duct, blown diffuser, etc.), no endless testing or wind-tunnel work, not having a major tyre company design tyres for one driver’s preferences, and no endless protesting/wingeing. Just doing it right most of the time. Hope they don’t miss Niki too much.
Monaco could have been 1-2 if Max hadn’t driven into Bottas.


If those are magic advantages then Mercedes have had several during this period. They brought lean burn and oil burn to the engine side which was more dominant than any of those advantages in 2014-2016 and FRIC/HPC suspensions at differing times on the car side.

They've also raised the budget to the highest ever to 500m and have twice the manpower of Red Bull in the aero department. They along with Red Bull were among the first to have these so called full chassis dyno's that can be joined to their simulator as well so they can effectively test 24/7, only 4 teams have access to one I believe (RB,Merc,Ferrari and STR-Honda's in Sakura).

I'm pretty sure I've seen whinging, driver preference at certain times and I recall an illegal tyre test as well so another couple on your list aren't entirely accurate too. (Whinging, protesting,cheating and nominating one driver for maximum points)

I do agree with Murray though, I think they are the best but I don't think they've done anything differently, just bigger (money) and better (Engineering inventiveness especially on the engine side but also with suspensions). The complexity of these engines keeping potential rival teams down, narrow regulations and having one of if not the best drivers out there all ensured their chances were converted more often than not.

Hey, Lotus, can I loan you a tin foil hat, or perhaps you will need full body armour!!!
;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 4:34 pm 
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One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 4:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 5:08 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.


I think there is a very small group who you could point a finger at for that; and to be fair they tend to be ignored by the majority; even those who are no fan of either Mercedes or Hamilton. As another poster alluded to, over the last two years Mercedes have shown their mettle against worthy opposition on numerous occasions. And at least they look the part in what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor sport. Imagine if they weren't in F1. The current world championship leaders would be a couple of error prone drivers in a clown car managed by the Marx Brothers.

As for the best team, I look beyond the money (it certainly hasnt done Ferrari much good over the last decade) and at the team itself. I was scathing about Wolff when he took over, and thought he would destroy the team, but the way he has that team working as a cohesive unit is something to be admired. Iv'e spent my whole life working in, or managing teams. and I think he has created something special there. I can see why he is on Libertys shopping list to replace Carey.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 5:35 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.


I wouldn't put you on the lunatic fringe of that particular faction, which unfortunately a few people here do find themselves falling into. Anti Mercedes sentiment is one thing (and something even Mercedes fans should understand), but some people just cant help delve into the realm of fantasy when being vocal about that sentiment.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.

The question is; why have we not had a cross-team fight down to the final race? It's not because Mercedes have always had a car that made that impossible. The last two years; Hamilton and Mercedes have just performed to a higher level than Vettel and Ferrari with a similar level of machinery. Hamilton has both gotten more out of the car and made fewer mistakes than Vettel and Mercedes have been a lot more solid in their decision-making, strategy and approach than Ferrari. They have mostly been winning with superior execution and performance but if you listen to the crybabies out there, you'd think they've just been clubbing everyone over the head with an unbeatable car (one that is only unbeatable because of some unfair and insurmountable engine advantage). Ferrari have had the better engine for more than a year and yet Mercedes are still beating them.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.


The last 2 years that has been down to Ferrari incompetance rather than Mercedes dominance though.... this year seems to be a case of a kind of 'dominance' similar to the Red Bull years.... Unless a Mercedes driver has a mare, the Ferrari guys dont have a chance, compared to the truly dominant years where the Merc boys could have a couple of mess up's and still be miles clear.

The Ferrari situation this year is only amplifying the effect though, they need a few planets to align to do the damage, but are still falling over themselves even when the oppertunites do present themselves.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:14 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.


The last 2 years that has been down to Ferrari incompetance rather than Mercedes dominance though.... this year seems to be a case of a kind of 'dominance' similar to the Red Bull years.... Unless a Mercedes driver has a mare, the Ferrari guys dont have a chance, compared to the truly dominant years where the Merc boys could have a couple of mess up's and still be miles clear.

The Ferrari situation this year is only amplifying the effect though, they need a few planets to align to do the damage, but are still falling over themselves even when the oppertunites do present themselves.


The results still the same though in the end though. If it's caused by Ferrari screwing up or Merc being great. I mean, 2017 and 2018 were way better than 2015 and 2016 but we still didn't really get a championship fight in the end.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:

The last 2 years that has been down to Ferrari incompetance rather than Mercedes dominance though.... this year seems to be a case of a kind of 'dominance' similar to the Red Bull years.... Unless a Mercedes driver has a mare, the Ferrari guys dont have a chance, compared to the truly dominant years where the Merc boys could have a couple of mess up's and still be miles clear.

The Ferrari situation this year is only amplifying the effect though, they need a few planets to align to do the damage, but are still falling over themselves even when the oppertunites do present themselves.


The results still the same though in the end though. If it's caused by Ferrari screwing up or Merc being great. I mean, 2017 and 2018 were way better than 2015 and 2016 but we still didn't really get a championship fight in the end.


Yeah, fair enough as far as the end result goes.

I just reckon that now (or the last 2 years, to be honest), as opposed to 14/15/16, its been an honest contest, and the fact that the guys in Red have dropped the baton shouldn't be ignored when counting up the 'dominance total'.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

The highest possible? You mean that they have matched "persistence" of the PRO-Hamilton fans? Don't bet on it.
;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.


The last 2 years that has been down to Ferrari incompetance rather than Mercedes dominance though.... this year seems to be a case of a kind of 'dominance' similar to the Red Bull years.... Unless a Mercedes driver has a mare, the Ferrari guys dont have a chance, compared to the truly dominant years where the Merc boys could have a couple of mess up's and still be miles clear.

The Ferrari situation this year is only amplifying the effect though, they need a few planets to align to do the damage, but are still falling over themselves even when the oppertunites do present themselves.


The results still the same though in the end though. If it's caused by Ferrari screwing up or Merc being great. I mean, 2017 and 2018 were way better than 2015 and 2016 but we still didn't really get a championship fight in the end.

Well 2018 in particular was on Vettel, the Ferrari was good enough but Hamilton was better.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:14 pm 
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He is right and it's the reasons I stopped watching races live on TV and paying to watch it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 9:13 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.

The question is; why have we not had a cross-team fight down to the final race? It's not because Mercedes have always had a car that made that impossible. The last two years; Hamilton and Mercedes have just performed to a higher level than Vettel and Ferrari with a similar level of machinery. Hamilton has both gotten more out of the car and made fewer mistakes than Vettel and Mercedes have been a lot more solid in their decision-making, strategy and approach than Ferrari. They have mostly been winning with superior execution and performance but if you listen to the crybabies out there, you'd think they've just been clubbing everyone over the head with an unbeatable car (one that is only unbeatable because of some unfair and insurmountable engine advantage). Ferrari have had the better engine for more than a year and yet Mercedes are still beating them.


That's a bit unnecessary. Hamilton fans are just as big crybabies that if you listen to them Ham can do no wrong and fought with a terrible disadvantage all these years... It goes both ways.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 9:13 am 
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Multi69 wrote:
He is right and it's the reasons I stopped watching races live on TV and paying to watch it.


Not the main reason for me, but yeah, I wish the free live racing was back on instead of pay-TV.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 9:20 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that the level of saltiness from anti-Mercedes and anti-Hamilton fans is now 100% on par with what you saw from anti-Ferrari and anti-Schumacher fans circa 2004. So they have reached the highest heights possible in that regard.

Really? I would say the anyone-but-Mercedes crowd, who I would count myself among, have generally backed off since 2017 when we had some genuine competition again.

If things carry on as they are I can see the anti-Merc sentiment increasing back to 2015/16 levels pretty sharpish though.

What many of this crowd have done is to basically pretend that 2017-2018 never happened and that Mercedes have just been dominant all along.


They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.

The question is; why have we not had a cross-team fight down to the final race? It's not because Mercedes have always had a car that made that impossible. The last two years; Hamilton and Mercedes have just performed to a higher level than Vettel and Ferrari with a similar level of machinery. Hamilton has both gotten more out of the car and made fewer mistakes than Vettel and Mercedes have been a lot more solid in their decision-making, strategy and approach than Ferrari. They have mostly been winning with superior execution and performance but if you listen to the crybabies out there, you'd think they've just been clubbing everyone over the head with an unbeatable car (one that is only unbeatable because of some unfair and insurmountable engine advantage). Ferrari have had the better engine for more than a year and yet Mercedes are still beating them.


But the Hamilton/Merc package has proved unbeatable.That cannot be denied. I think you're arguing against a position almost nobody holds to be honest.


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 8:37 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
They are the best ever by far, nobody had dominance like they have.

That's the beauty of short term memory… Go back and watch McLaren in the mid to late 80's, Williams Early to late 90's, Ferrari from 2000 - 2004.
None endured as long a reign as Mercedes are currently enjoying, but in at least 2 years of their dominance, Mercedes has been challenged seriously, and it was their drivers that made all the difference, and it was close enough to defunk this myth that Mercedes are all encompassing and all conquering. While they have won consistently, they have not done so by a country mile the way the others I listed did throughout their runs.

Williams' run was the most similar to Mercedes currently in that initially it was a one horse show, but then others came on and challenged them and pushed them to the very edge all the way through on several occasions to barely take the title.

Ferrari on the other hand enjoyed a greater level of disparity for longer and won more easily (not saying it was indeed easy) than anyone else, BUT it was so mostly in part to one driver. And can we please stop the nonsense about special tires already??!!?? All Bridgestone customers received the exact same tires as Ferrari. That farcical urban legend needs to die a quick death already.

Mercedes are certainly in the conversation of most consistent ever, but if you look at their record since their return in 2010, ONE thing should stand out from the moment they began winning. Lewis Hamilton. And while Nico was excellent in his own right, if you look at all of Lewis' wins, look where the guy in the other car finished, and you might notice it's not always 2nd place, which speaks to the fact the car alone isn't what makes them dominant.

I think it's more appropriate to speak about the drivers on the dominant teams the sport has been fortunate to witness, because in doing so you might notice one of those drivers has/is something more than the rest of them. Luckily, ATM we have at least 3, possibly 4 drivers on the elite level so while we often do see Mercedes ride off into the sunset, we also see some very interesting and exciting battles before that happens, as well as throughout the races.

What bugs me about it all is that all the ground work and paying of dues was done by Ross brawn and he was forced out of his own team and the likes of Wolff and Zetche receive all the credit. And while I've come to really like Wolff a great deal, he slid into the seat that Brawn built and ran with it.

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BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 8:46 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.

The question is; why have we not had a cross-team fight down to the final race? It's not because Mercedes have always had a car that made that impossible. The last two years; Hamilton and Mercedes have just performed to a higher level than Vettel and Ferrari with a similar level of machinery. Hamilton has both gotten more out of the car and made fewer mistakes than Vettel and Mercedes have been a lot more solid in their decision-making, strategy and approach than Ferrari. They have mostly been winning with superior execution and performance but if you listen to the crybabies out there, you'd think they've just been clubbing everyone over the head with an unbeatable car (one that is only unbeatable because of some unfair and insurmountable engine advantage). Ferrari have had the better engine for more than a year and yet Mercedes are still beating them.


That's a bit unnecessary. Hamilton fans are just as big crybabies that if you listen to them Ham can do no wrong and fought with a terrible disadvantage all these years... It goes both ways.

Sorry but that's nonsense. First of all there are a broad spectrum of people who are fans of Hamilton. Kind of silly to paint everyone with the same dramatically exaggerated brush strokes. Besides, Hamilton fans are not the ones crying. It's the Hamilton haters who have a problem with the world of late.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 8:22 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

They have still won it multiple races before the end of the season though. Hardly nail biting. We haven't had a cross team championship fight going down to the final race since 2012. It feels like a drought.

The question is; why have we not had a cross-team fight down to the final race? It's not because Mercedes have always had a car that made that impossible. The last two years; Hamilton and Mercedes have just performed to a higher level than Vettel and Ferrari with a similar level of machinery. Hamilton has both gotten more out of the car and made fewer mistakes than Vettel and Mercedes have been a lot more solid in their decision-making, strategy and approach than Ferrari. They have mostly been winning with superior execution and performance but if you listen to the crybabies out there, you'd think they've just been clubbing everyone over the head with an unbeatable car (one that is only unbeatable because of some unfair and insurmountable engine advantage). Ferrari have had the better engine for more than a year and yet Mercedes are still beating them.


That's a bit unnecessary. Hamilton fans are just as big crybabies that if you listen to them Ham can do no wrong and fought with a terrible disadvantage all these years... It goes both ways.

Sorry but that's nonsense. First of all there are a broad spectrum of people who are fans of Hamilton. Kind of silly to paint everyone with the same dramatically exaggerated brush strokes. Besides, Hamilton fans are not the ones crying. It's the Hamilton haters who have a problem with the world of late.

I should have said "some" of the fans, apologies. But you didn't differentiate this in your post either, there's a broad spectrum of people that do not support Hamilton and are not crybabies.

As for the last sentence, maybe you can't see it as a Hamilton fan, but there are numerous people that can't see Hamilton doing any wrong ever. Personally, apart from F1 being a bit monotonous (hardly his fault though), I do not have any problem with him winning everything, even if he breaks Schumacher's records (as a Schumie fan), I see it as seeing history being made in front of us. And we should cherish it, 6 years ago Schumie's records were the impossible dream.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:14 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
They are the best ever by far, nobody had dominance like they have.


6 titles in a row is unprecedented. But don't forget Schumacher's 5 titles in a row with Ferrari, and Vettel's 4 with Red Bull. They were also clocking up huge numbers of wins per season some years without 2 world champion calibre drivers..
Also Mclaren's 88-91 4 in a row.

What's alarming for F1 is that dominance by one team is becoming the norm. Since 2000 we've had 15 years of it. 2000-04, 2010-13, 2014-19. And it's been so every year of the last 10! Perhaps a thorough discussion of this trend is for another thread, but it's surely not good for F1 if the only way to shake up the order is to usher in a major rule change every few years..


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:17 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
it's surely not good for F1 if the only way to shake up the order is to usher in a major rule change every few years..

But that’s precisely what has led to these periods of dominance and it’s the biggest catch 22.
Because the rules are changed and set is stone, development is stifled and any teams who miss the mark are literally STUCK trying to dig their way out of the hole because the car they’ve built was in full accordance to the rules and there is very little room to do anything different.

And the reality is that even though teams appear to be ultra dominant, the difference between the top 3-4 teams is far smaller than any other time in history and the difference of a tenth or hundredths these days is as big as the gap gets, and the drivers themselves play a huge role in teams dominating. Initially automobile racing was primarily a journeyman endeavor where only a select few had an innate ability that set them apart from the rest and it was usually a 2-3 man race. But racing became so alluring and over time so many junior categories were created that were more affordable, and competitors grew younger and younger, and it all evolved into creating a pool of PROFESSIONAL KIDS so vast that even many pay drivers are now excellent in their own right. Looking at the class of 2019 it seems the younglings are all quite adept behind the wheel of the most extreme racing machines on the planet, and with a bit more time behind the wheel they will develop consistency, which is the most difficult thing to attain in any form of racing.

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BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:13 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
it's surely not good for F1 if the only way to shake up the order is to usher in a major rule change every few years..

But that’s precisely what has led to these periods of dominance and it’s the biggest catch 22.
Because the rules are changed and set is stone, development is stifled and any teams who miss the mark are literally STUCK trying to dig their way out of the hole because the car they’ve built was in full accordance to the rules and there is very little room to do anything different.

And the reality is that even though teams appear to be ultra dominant, the difference between the top 3-4 teams is far smaller than any other time in history and the difference of a tenth or hundredths these days is as big as the gap gets, and the drivers themselves play a huge role in teams dominating. Initially automobile racing was primarily a journeyman endeavor where only a select few had an innate ability that set them apart from the rest and it was usually a 2-3 man race. But racing became so alluring and over time so many junior categories were created that were more affordable, and competitors grew younger and younger, and it all evolved into creating a pool of PROFESSIONAL KIDS so vast that even many pay drivers are now excellent in their own right. Looking at the class of 2019 it seems the younglings are all quite adept behind the wheel of the most extreme racing machines on the planet, and with a bit more time behind the wheel they will develop consistency, which is the most difficult thing to attain in any form of racing.



That's actually a bit of myth. Usually after a big rule change we end up with a loser field. Out of the 4 last big ones 2014, 2009, 2005 and 1998 only 2014 increased the gaps between the cars but the field has become less competitive year on year since then. It was only in 2017 that the Force India's could mix it up with the big boys in Canada. A midfield team doing that this weekend, just 2 years later would be unthinkable.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:17 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
AravJ wrote:
They are the best ever by far, nobody had dominance like they have.


6 titles in a row is unprecedented. But don't forget Schumacher's 5 titles in a row with Ferrari, and Vettel's 4 with Red Bull. They were also clocking up huge numbers of wins per season some years without 2 world champion calibre drivers..
Also Mclaren's 88-91 4 in a row.

What's alarming for F1 is that dominance by one team is becoming the norm. Since 2000 we've had 15 years of it. 2000-04, 2010-13, 2014-19. And it's been so every year of the last 10! Perhaps a thorough discussion of this trend is for another thread, but it's surely not good for F1 if the only way to shake up the order is to usher in a major rule change every few years..

That's not really true though. There's a difference between winning and dominating. The Ferrari was not dominant in 2003 (nor 2000 really for that matter), The Red Bull was not dominant in 2012 and the Mercedes was not dominant in 2017 or 2018. The problem is that, as long as they keep winning, people tend to conflate the competitive years with the years of domination; as though there has just been one extended period of domination.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:27 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
it's surely not good for F1 if the only way to shake up the order is to usher in a major rule change every few years..

But that’s precisely what has led to these periods of dominance and it’s the biggest catch 22.
Because the rules are changed and set is stone, development is stifled and any teams who miss the mark are literally STUCK trying to dig their way out of the hole because the car they’ve built was in full accordance to the rules and there is very little room to do anything different.


I don't see how that can be so. Regardless of rule changes the rules are always 'set in stone'. That's what rules are..
Small rule changes are often done to nullify recent aerodynamic developments and so they do become more restrictive, but designers always manage to find new ways to gain an advantage, so the grid order is not much affected.
The major changes have been to the engine format, as 2021 will be to an extent. The idea is to move the goalposts so all teams have to start again, giving them all a chance to radically change their position. As we know however, the bigger teams always react quicker and spend more. In years with no major rule changes however there is now virtual stasis on the grid.

How can teams be stuck mid-grid because 'there's very little room to do anything different'? Mercedes and Ferrari have managed to do something different! Teams are stuck I think by the disparity in budgets between them and the teams ahead of them. Grid order exactly matches the teams' budgets. Until some way can be found to equalise the teams' budgets tweaking the rules won't make any difference. And if the technical complexity of the cars continues to evolve the manufacturer teams will get even richer relative to the minnows and the situation will get worse.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:04 pm 
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You missed what I said… Mercedes formula has been right from the start of the turbo v6 era and then the aero and physical specs regs were changed and their philosophy still applied to the aero changes. And overall, teams all remained pretty much where they’d been before the advent of the current aero. That’s because fundamentally, their philosophies built around the regulations are at an extreme and the TINY bit of room they have to play with is so minuscule, it’s difficult to devise a way to squeeze out more performance. Hence why we didn’t see much of a leap outside of McLaren, who’s cars were significantly enough off the mark that any considerable improvement would see them move up the order. Williams are stuck at the back the last 2 seasons and they’re finding it impossible to improve upon their base package no matter what they try, and they’re the only team consistently way off the mark. All others fluctuate from race to race, sometimes surprisingly farther towards the front and other a bit further back. But all in all the teams aren’t far off one another in all out speed, it’s the consistency they lack, some of which falls on the car and a smidge on the drivers. Add them both together and the deficit is just a hair greater.

If you look at Mercedes, ONE driver has proven to have superior consistency in the last 6 years. That the team has been able to build a solid car consistently helps, but they’ve not always been the best and have endured periods where clearly they weren’t the best and had to figure out how to resolve the issues, and eventually they did, and sometimes just enough to bridge the gap enough to allow the drivers to do the rest.

People these days place too much value in the car and claim that any driver can win in such a car but that’s never been true. If that were the case, why didn’t Mercedes hire any ole driver in 2014 instead of Hamilton? Why didn’t Ferrari hire any other driver over Schumacher, Raikkonen, or Vettel? Why did Red Bull sign and then promote Verstappen instead of any other driver?

Because drivers make more of a difference than people assume these days. So while Mercedes are an amazingly good team, their consistency coupled with top drivers is what makes them such a COMPLETE team.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:41 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
You missed what I said… Mercedes formula has been right from the start of the turbo v6 era and then the aero and physical specs regs were changed and their philosophy still applied to the aero changes. And overall, teams all remained pretty much where they’d been before the advent of the current aero. That’s because fundamentally, their philosophies built around the regulations are at an extreme and the TINY bit of room they have to play with is so minuscule, it’s difficult to devise a way to squeeze out more performance. Hence why we didn’t see much of a leap outside of McLaren, who’s cars were significantly enough off the mark that any considerable improvement would see them move up the order. Williams are stuck at the back the last 2 seasons and they’re finding it impossible to improve upon their base package no matter what they try, and they’re the only team consistently way off the mark. All others fluctuate from race to race, sometimes surprisingly farther towards the front and other a bit further back. But all in all the teams aren’t far off one another in all out speed, it’s the consistency they lack, some of which falls on the car and a smidge on the drivers. Add them both together and the deficit is just a hair greater.

If you look at Mercedes, ONE driver has proven to have superior consistency in the last 6 years. That the team has been able to build a solid car consistently helps, but they’ve not always been the best and have endured periods where clearly they weren’t the best and had to figure out how to resolve the issues, and eventually they did, and sometimes just enough to bridge the gap enough to allow the drivers to do the rest.

People these days place too much value in the car and claim that any driver can win in such a car but that’s never been true. If that were the case, why didn’t Mercedes hire any ole driver in 2014 instead of Hamilton? Why didn’t Ferrari hire any other driver over Schumacher, Raikkonen, or Vettel? Why did Red Bull sign and then promote Verstappen instead of any other driver?

Because drivers make more of a difference than people assume these days. So while Mercedes are an amazingly good team, their consistency coupled with top drivers is what makes them such a COMPLETE team.

Totally agree. It mostly comes down to people's inability to look at things objectively. So they are willing and able to recognize a driver's performance if they happen to root for that driver or team but if it's a driver they do not support; they will write off his achievements to the car. It's been that way for a long time actually.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:42 pm 
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Precisely, and that’s what irks me when people say nonsensical things about Vettel winning at Redd Bull.
But as you say, people refer to certain arguments and “viewpoints” when it suits their argument.

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BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:33 am 
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Just to add one more thought to the whole underestimating the impact of drivers thing; look at Racing Point. I think that team is suffering from having only one strong driver. I have to imagine that if they still had Ocon; not only would Ocon be performing far better than Lance; Perez would be performing to a higher level as well. When both drivers are strong they push each other to greater heights. All teams share data between their two drivers and if one driver finds something, the other will be able to learn from it. That's a big part of what made Mercedes so dominant when Hamilton and Rosberg were there. The two of them were brilliant and were also super competitive. They pushed each other and the car to greater and greater heights. With such heavy restrictions on testing these days, it's actually quite a challenge to get the maximum from the car and the driver is the key to making that happen.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:08 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Just to add one more thought to the whole underestimating the impact of drivers thing; look at Racing Point. I think that team is suffering from having only one strong driver. I have to imagine that if they still had Ocon; not only would Ocon be performing far better than Lance; Perez would be performing to a higher level as well. When both drivers are strong they push each other to greater heights. All teams share data between their two drivers and if one driver finds something, the other will be able to learn from it. That's a big part of what made Mercedes so dominant when Hamilton and Rosberg were there. The two of them were brilliant and were also super competitive. They pushed each other and the car to greater and greater heights. With such heavy restrictions on testing these days, it's actually quite a challenge to get the maximum from the car and the driver is the key to making that happen.


Yes and it's particularly noticeable in the case of Racing Point as they've benefited from probably having the best line up in the midfield since 2014. Often finishing higher in the WCC than the car should on out right performance.


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