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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 4:40 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:
j man wrote:
Improving Monaco? Just get rid of Monaco!

I'm so fed up with it, it's an utter farce of a sporting event. I just cannot understand the viewpoint of people saying this year's race was in any way interesting, surely anyone who's watched the race a few times knew that Hamilton wasn't going to be overtaken.

The best idea I've heard for it is to make it a time trial event with a handful of points dished out. That way we get to watch something akin to Monaco qualifying which is actually great to watch, but without the 2 hours of tedium on the Sunday, while the world's millionaires still get an excuse to drink champagne and pose with their yachts.

When race leaders are banging wheels with 3 laps to go then it goes into the "interesting" column. Unlike most races this year

At any other venue I'd agree with you, but context is important here. The wheel banging only happened because the track layout didn't give Verstappen any opportunity to make a proper overtake attempt. This wasn't the two leaders tussling side by side for the win, it was the driver in second place sticking in a no-hope passing attempt because he'd run out of options.

For me, wondering whether Verstappen is going to wipe out the race leader in frustration at the lack passing opportunities is not the hallmark of a great motor race.

But the nature of the track is what leads to it happening in the first place! How do people keep missing that? Without the barriers we don't get the Leclerc do or die scenario, we don't get the strategy fumble, we don't get Hamilton trying to lap slower than the backmarkers and we don't get the Verstappen will he/won't he. Without any of that we just get Spain again or Australia again or China again. Why do you want another boring race the same as has been consistently delivered this year?

This race was different to those. And variety is a good thing. It's healthy for the sport. The idea that someone would clap their hands after Verstappen breezes by Hamilton on a mile-long mile-wide DRS-activated straight and prefer that to the tension created on Sunday, and the ultimate banging of wheels, makes me sad. The former is not a race, the latter is

Totally agree that variety is a good thing, but there has to be a limit to the scale of that variety. Using a race track with sprinklers on would add variety but most people would be heavily against that. Uniqueness factor alone should not justify a place on the F1 calendar, it has to actually work as a motor race or you lose the integrity of the competition.

To me the Monaco Grand Prix just has no credibility as a sporting event, the race order is 99.99% decided by the starting order and by what happens around pitstops and on race day the drivers have minimal opportunity to influence their result through their own ability, it doesn't go beyond whether they can keep it out of the walls for 78 laps. They can pretty much drive around at any speed they want to without it making any difference whatsoever. That is what bothers me about it.

I have nothing against there being some urban circuits that are difficult to race on, Singapore and Baku have been fine additions to the calendar. But the Monaco Grand Prix for me is just too far on the uniqueness scale, it would be like holding a round of Premier League football matches in a tennis arena; those who want to see a good game of football are only going to end up disappointed.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 4:51 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
j man wrote:
Improving Monaco? Just get rid of Monaco!

I'm so fed up with it, it's an utter farce of a sporting event. I just cannot understand the viewpoint of people saying this year's race was in any way interesting, surely anyone who's watched the race a few times knew that Hamilton wasn't going to be overtaken.

The best idea I've heard for it is to make it a time trial event with a handful of points dished out. That way we get to watch something akin to Monaco qualifying which is actually great to watch, but without the 2 hours of tedium on the Sunday, while the world's millionaires still get an excuse to drink champagne and pose with their yachts.

When race leaders are banging wheels with 3 laps to go then it goes into the "interesting" column. Unlike most races this year


Due to a tactical mess by Mercedes, not because the circuit is good. Had Lewis had the correct tyres fitted, it would have been even more of a procession.

That's just Formula 1. When the best team/driver have gotten something wrong, the others are in with a shout. When they get everything right the race is over on Saturday. That's not just true for Monaco, that's every race track

If races being spiced up due to tactical messes don't count as good races then... why do you watch this sport?


When did I say that I didn't enjoy the fact that the tactical mess upped the enjoyment of the race?

This thread is about ideas to improve the circuit, a circuit that even the drivers and others within the sport admit would never exist if it had been created 50 years ago. It's only in the sport because of money and tradition.

If we're talking about the relative qualities of circuits, using tactical mistakes as a way to praise a circuit is wrong. That's why I pointed it out.

Baku is where street circuits should look. Damn tight and twisty in places meaning 1 mistake and you're out, but combined with a long fast straight. It's a 100 times better than Monaco in my opinion.

But we already have one Baku. Why do you want more Bakus? Why neutralise the sport to fewer circuit types?

Oh and the Monaco GP this year was far superior to the Baku GP this year, where the best entertainment was Ricciardo reversing into Kvyat

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 4:54 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
The thing is, I know passing is difficult in F1 at a lot of circuits, but for Lewis to be able to lap 2 or more seconds off the pace for the majority of the race, safe in the knowledge that it's highly unlikely that anyone will pass him, that should highlight a significant problem to all.

He did it quite effectively at Abu Dhabi 2016 also. This is not unique to Monaco

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 4:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
The thing is, I know passing is difficult in F1 at a lot of circuits, but for Lewis to be able to lap 2 or more seconds off the pace for the majority of the race, safe in the knowledge that it's highly unlikely that anyone will pass him, that should highlight a significant problem to all.


I don't think it's a problem. The race had way more tension that it would have if Verstappen had been able to pass in 5 laps.


For me it had one bit of tension. The failed pass attempt. 1 single attempt in goodness knows how many laps, with a lead car driving massively off the pace and the car behind being well on the pace. Come on!


The tension lasted for about 45 minutes of having Verstappen wedged up Lewis' gearbox knowing he was going to have a go at him at some point.

I guess different people enjoy different things but I don't understand why it would have been more exciting to see Verstappen pass earlier and watch him waltz off into the sunset.

Exactly :thumbup:

This is like a re-hash of last year, where people said they would have been happier to see Vettel breeze by Ricciardo and charge off into the distance to an unopposed victory. Who in god's name would be entertained by that?

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:06 pm 
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j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:
j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:
j man wrote:
Improving Monaco? Just get rid of Monaco!

I'm so fed up with it, it's an utter farce of a sporting event. I just cannot understand the viewpoint of people saying this year's race was in any way interesting, surely anyone who's watched the race a few times knew that Hamilton wasn't going to be overtaken.

The best idea I've heard for it is to make it a time trial event with a handful of points dished out. That way we get to watch something akin to Monaco qualifying which is actually great to watch, but without the 2 hours of tedium on the Sunday, while the world's millionaires still get an excuse to drink champagne and pose with their yachts.

When race leaders are banging wheels with 3 laps to go then it goes into the "interesting" column. Unlike most races this year

At any other venue I'd agree with you, but context is important here. The wheel banging only happened because the track layout didn't give Verstappen any opportunity to make a proper overtake attempt. This wasn't the two leaders tussling side by side for the win, it was the driver in second place sticking in a no-hope passing attempt because he'd run out of options.

For me, wondering whether Verstappen is going to wipe out the race leader in frustration at the lack passing opportunities is not the hallmark of a great motor race.

But the nature of the track is what leads to it happening in the first place! How do people keep missing that? Without the barriers we don't get the Leclerc do or die scenario, we don't get the strategy fumble, we don't get Hamilton trying to lap slower than the backmarkers and we don't get the Verstappen will he/won't he. Without any of that we just get Spain again or Australia again or China again. Why do you want another boring race the same as has been consistently delivered this year?

This race was different to those. And variety is a good thing. It's healthy for the sport. The idea that someone would clap their hands after Verstappen breezes by Hamilton on a mile-long mile-wide DRS-activated straight and prefer that to the tension created on Sunday, and the ultimate banging of wheels, makes me sad. The former is not a race, the latter is

Totally agree that variety is a good thing, but there has to be a limit to the scale of that variety. Using a race track with sprinklers on would add variety but most people would be heavily against that. Uniqueness factor alone should not justify a place on the F1 calendar, it has to actually work as a motor race or you lose the integrity of the competition.

To me the Monaco Grand Prix just has no credibility as a sporting event, the race order is 99.99% decided by the starting order and by what happens around pitstops and on race day the drivers have minimal opportunity to influence their result through their own ability, it doesn't go beyond whether they can keep it out of the walls for 78 laps. They can pretty much drive around at any speed they want to without it making any difference whatsoever. That is what bothers me about it.

I have nothing against there being some urban circuits that are difficult to race on, Singapore and Baku have been fine additions to the calendar. But the Monaco Grand Prix for me is just too far on the uniqueness scale, it would be like holding a round of Premier League football matches in a tennis arena; those who want to see a good game of football are only going to end up disappointed.

Sorry but the race we got on Sunday invalidates your claims. The race order wasn't decided by the start order. And the pitstop argument applies to 90% of GPs in general, as far back as I've been watching in the mid-90s

Monaco went on a streak of 2015-2016-2017 where the guy on pole didn't win the race. That's a damn good run in modern day Formula 1

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:39 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I want a variety of tracks that give a unique characteristic, be it fast, bumpy, tight, big braking, etc - as well as those that give more of a technical "bit of everything" type challenges which most new Tilke style circuits seem to favour. The modern tracks all share quite similar characteristics and in terms of set up, require tweeks rather than changes from track to track.

One thing that detracts from Monaco is the cars have became easier and more predictable to drive and drivers far better prepared in mental/physical fitness. During a race it seems far less likely for somebody to stack it into the barrier - especially a front runner. It takes that suspense away.

My memory escapes me, but when was the last time a front runner - or even one of the top drivers - stack it at during the race in an accident that didn't involve contact? I know Max has but he is the only one I can think of.


Drivers are also better prepared due to spending loads of time in a simulator.


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 6:47 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:

I'm so fed up with it, it's an utter farce of a sporting event. I just cannot understand the viewpoint of people saying this year's race was in any way interesting, surely anyone who's watched the race a few times knew that Hamilton wasn't going to be overtaken.

The best idea I've heard for it is to make it a time trial event with a handful of points dished out. That way we get to watch something akin to Monaco qualifying which is actually great to watch, but without the 2 hours of tedium on the Sunday, while the world's millionaires still get an excuse to drink champagne and pose with their yachts.

When race leaders are banging wheels with 3 laps to go then it goes into the "interesting" column. Unlike most races this year


Due to a tactical mess by Mercedes, not because the circuit is good. Had Lewis had the correct tyres fitted, it would have been even more of a procession.

That's just Formula 1. When the best team/driver have gotten something wrong, the others are in with a shout. When they get everything right the race is over on Saturday. That's not just true for Monaco, that's every race track

If races being spiced up due to tactical messes don't count as good races then... why do you watch this sport?


When did I say that I didn't enjoy the fact that the tactical mess upped the enjoyment of the race?

This thread is about ideas to improve the circuit, a circuit that even the drivers and others within the sport admit would never exist if it had been created 50 years ago. It's only in the sport because of money and tradition.

If we're talking about the relative qualities of circuits, using tactical mistakes as a way to praise a circuit is wrong. That's why I pointed it out.

Baku is where street circuits should look. Damn tight and twisty in places meaning 1 mistake and you're out, but combined with a long fast straight. It's a 100 times better than Monaco in my opinion.

But we already have one Baku. Why do you want more Bakus? Why neutralise the sport to fewer circuit types?

Oh and the Monaco GP this year was far superior to the Baku GP this year, where the best entertainment was Ricciardo reversing into Kvyat[/quote]

I never said I wanted more Bakus. I do hate it when people make things up. Kind of the reason I kept pretty much away from this forum for the last few years. People put words in my mouth. My point about Baku is that it's a fundamentally a street circuit which punishes small mistakes but has the added advantage of providing a good amount of passing and would do so even without DRS.

To create more street circuits with punishing bits and passing places does not mean they all have to be the same as Baku. Most people love the racing around Spa for very different reasons to street circuits and I'm sure, like me, they'd like more circuits that offered the same as Spa. That doesn't mean they'd all be clones.

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 9:38 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
That's just Formula 1. When the best team/driver have gotten something wrong, the others are in with a shout. When they get everything right the race is over on Saturday. That's not just true for Monaco, that's every race track

If races being spiced up due to tactical messes don't count as good races then... why do you watch this sport?


When did I say that I didn't enjoy the fact that the tactical mess upped the enjoyment of the race?

This thread is about ideas to improve the circuit, a circuit that even the drivers and others within the sport admit would never exist if it had been created 50 years ago. It's only in the sport because of money and tradition.

If we're talking about the relative qualities of circuits, using tactical mistakes as a way to praise a circuit is wrong. That's why I pointed it out.

Baku is where street circuits should look. Damn tight and twisty in places meaning 1 mistake and you're out, but combined with a long fast straight. It's a 100 times better than Monaco in my opinion.

But we already have one Baku. Why do you want more Bakus? Why neutralise the sport to fewer circuit types?

Oh and the Monaco GP this year was far superior to the Baku GP this year, where the best entertainment was Ricciardo reversing into Kvyat


I never said I wanted more Bakus. I do hate it when people make things up. Kind of the reason I kept pretty much away from this forum for the last few years. People put words in my mouth. My point about Baku is that it's a fundamentally a street circuit which punishes small mistakes but has the added advantage of providing a good amount of passing and would do so even without DRS.

To create more street circuits with punishing bits and passing places does not mean they all have to be the same as Baku. Most people love the racing around Spa for very different reasons to street circuits and I'm sure, like me, they'd like more circuits that offered the same as Spa. That doesn't mean they'd all be clones.

It does mean they'd practically be clones. Once they get the main man Tilke in we'll get the same old same old. Look at the Rio track that has been put forward - it's the same as Bahrain. Tell him to look at what Baku did and he'll make another Baku - in fact the Hanoi circuit looks like it has all the same stuff. That's enough thanks

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:18 am 
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Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some decent racing and passing.

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:42 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some decent racing and passing.


It's the lack of imagination. Most Tilke tracks do have a lot of very similar corners. Most produce some good racing but just like I wouldn't want 5 Monaco's a year I don't want 5 Bahrain's either.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 9:16 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:36 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.
I see what you mean, but you're wrong. The circuits aren't the problem in the main, it's the way those who sell us the tickets have consistently failed to tackle the real problem: downforce. Instead of imposing a decrease in downforce, they have increased it, making DRS even more of a "necessity". There is no amount of track-tweaking by Tilke or anybody else that can fix the problems created by an over-reliance on downforce. It is what Lauda pointed the finger at in the late '70s and it still is now he's gone. The only way to avoid being adversely affected by it is being in front consistently.

The only way to get the drivers and teams to wish to do something about it, is to do away with the currrent blue flag rule, and to keep DRS disabled for a few races. Two things which don't cost any money, just a bit of sporting goodwill. And that last bit is what I don't really expect to see in manufacturer teams. Though there are only a few left, their stranglehold on F1 is out of proportion.

Edit: I forgot, since this is a thread about Monaco, to mention that making the cars so wide is also not helping. Except to increase downforce, obviously.

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Last edited by Fiki on Fri May 31, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:38 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.


So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.


So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?


You wrote this a few comments up

"I never said I wanted more Bakus. I do hate it when people make things up. Kind of the reason I kept pretty much away from this forum for the last few years. People put words in my mouth."

I would say that is exactly what you are doing here.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.


So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?


You wrote this a few comments up

"I never said I wanted more Bakus. I do hate it when people make things up. Kind of the reason I kept pretty much away from this forum for the last few years. People put words in my mouth."

I would say that is exactly what you are doing here.


I asked if it was being claimed, not stating that it was. Somewhat different me thinks. The fact that DRS was brought into the conversation seemed a little odd too.

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:26 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.


So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?


You wrote this a few comments up

"I never said I wanted more Bakus. I do hate it when people make things up. Kind of the reason I kept pretty much away from this forum for the last few years. People put words in my mouth."

I would say that is exactly what you are doing here.


I asked if it was being claimed, not stating that it was. Somewhat different me thinks. The fact that DRS was brought into the conversation seemed a little odd too.


OK,

fair enough I got it wrong and take it back. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:44 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:

So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?


You wrote this a few comments up

"I never said I wanted more Bakus. I do hate it when people make things up. Kind of the reason I kept pretty much away from this forum for the last few years. People put words in my mouth."

I would say that is exactly what you are doing here.


I asked if it was being claimed, not stating that it was. Somewhat different me thinks. The fact that DRS was brought into the conversation seemed a little odd too.


OK,

fair enough I got it wrong and take it back. :thumbup:


Thanks. I know we disagree on this topic, but then that's no bad thing as that's kind of what forums are about! A do like a good discussion.

Cheers :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:54 pm 
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Check out this video from 1962. The cars are comparatively tiny and the track looks huge compared to today as a result:



The lack of any kind of safety provision is scary - from the sharply angled curbs to pedestrians wandering about and even a truck parked on the course! Interesting to see how much Monaco has changed, too


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Improving Monaco is pipe dream. The best thing they can do it remove it as a championship race. Let them have their annual stand alone GP if FIA and FOM wants to go there. Remove it from championship. Nothing else can make it better.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Zoue has the solution, make the cars smaller!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:55 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Zoue has the solution, make the cars smaller!
The main reason the cars were smaller in that beautiful film is that the engines dictated by Formula 1 were 1.5L only. I'm not sure whether car width was a factor in the formula, but there certainly wasn't any need for a long wheelbase.

The one thing that currently works against improved racing throughout the season is the wish to have a new lap record at every single race, no matter how tedious that race actually is. The point for fastest lap is just a symptom of that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:34 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.


So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?

I'm not but non-DRS passing is not the racing that you're watching. You'll typically find a similar amount of non-DRS passes at most of your favourite circuits as you will at Monaco. So in reality, all this talk of "decent racing and passing" is really just "I want more DRS drive-bys" because that is what today's racing is at these big mile-wide Tilkedromes

Leclerc on Grosjean at Rascasse is my favourite overtake of the year btw. That's the stuff that makes me watch Formula 1

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:51 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Tilke always gets a bashing on here. Not sure why really. OK, Valencia wasn't very nice to watch, but then like all of his circuits, he doesn't choose the country, location and restrictions in landscape or overall area he's allowed to use.

He was responsible for the F1 circuits used in Baku, China, Circuit or Americas, Istanbul (one of my favourites) and Sepang, all of which allow for some fake overtaking in the form of DRS drive-bys.


So, are you claiming that there is the same chance of non DRS passing at Monaco as there is at the circuits I've listed above?

I'm not but non-DRS passing is not the racing that you're watching. You'll typically find a similar amount of non-DRS passes at most of your favourite circuits as you will at Monaco. So in reality, all this talk of "decent racing and passing" is really just "I want more DRS drive-bys" because that is what today's racing is at these big mile-wide Tilkedromes

Leclerc on Grosjean at Rascasse is my favourite overtake of the year btw. That's the stuff that makes me watch Formula 1

I think the key difference is that the quality of racing at most other circuits can be improved by sorting out the over-reliance on aerodynamics. Monaco on the other hand is a hopeless cause. There is nothing that can be done to the cars, outside of returning to the 1960s deathtraps in the video above, that will make racing at Monaco feasible.

To each their own I guess, but even when an overtake does happen at Monaco I can't say I find it particularly memorable or enjoyable. The only way to get past someone is to send one up the inside and hope the driver in front jumps out of the way, or even just to physically barge past. I don't see much skill in that personally, and the few overtakes we see just look clumsy and poorly executed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:45 am 
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The cars are too long. They're 1m longer than they were 15 years ago. This is due to the ban on refueling so cars must have large gas tanks. Refueling strategies was one of the most exciting parts of F1. While Monaco is usually a 1 stop race anyway, the gigantic size of the race cars made for difficult maneuvering through the track as drivers attempted overtaking, which means it makes overtaking so much more difficult on street tracks. I bet Ha Noi is going to be absolutely boring, unless drivers drive like maniacs and crash into each other like they did at Monaco. I've never seen so much chaos in a dry weather F1 race. The drivers looked like amateurs out there, jockeying for position without regard for sportsmanship or safety. Bring back refueling and thus shorter cars that will be more maneuverable for overtaking


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:23 am 
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I sometimes get the impression, & it's probably an erroneous one, that some think F1 2019 should be all about driving the car at 100% for every single lap, about bullet proof tyres & unlimited overtaking opportunities & for that to be the case at every single race.

I sometimes get the impression that when it comes to F1, words like strategy & tactics are terms best confined to the dust bin of days gone by.

Monaco is the 1 race on calendar that demands something different. The 1 single race that asks a different question to it's participants than any other race does, yet to some having even 1 race like that is still 1 too many.

No other race demands so much on Saturday than Monaco does. No other race penalises a driver error than Monaco does. No other race rewards bravery like Monaco does. No other race means as much to the drivers as Monaco does.

People rave about Baku as being the new standard bearer for F1 street tracks but out of the 4 races we've had there, 2 have been good & 2 have been ordinary, and lets face it, Baku would be nothing without the long straight. Baku is basically a 2.2 km drag race with 4km of follow the leader in between. Yeah it's probably an over simplification of the track but not by much.

Surely there's enough room on an ever expanding calendar for 1 race that requires a totally different approach than any other race without the torches & pitchforks being dragged out at the same time every year or are we now so demanding for DRS enabled passing opportunities at every race that there's simply no place today for any race that doesn't fit into our blinkered perceptions of how the sport should be?

It's 1 race in a 21 race calendar people. 4.5% of the season. Why can we not just appreciate it for the spectacle it is & the different approach to the weekend it demands instead of trying to overly homogenise the sport by crying out for it's removal this time every year?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:45 am 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
The thing is, I know passing is difficult in F1 at a lot of circuits, but for Lewis to be able to lap 2 or more seconds off the pace for the majority of the race, safe in the knowledge that it's highly unlikely that anyone will pass him, that should highlight a significant problem to all.


I don't think it's a problem. The race had way more tension that it would have if Verstappen had been able to pass in 5 laps.


For me it had one bit of tension. The failed pass attempt. 1 single attempt in goodness knows how many laps, with a lead car driving massively off the pace and the car behind being well on the pace. Come on!


The tension lasted for about 45 minutes of having Verstappen wedged up Lewis' gearbox knowing he was going to have a go at him at some point.

I guess different people enjoy different things but I don't understand why it would have been more exciting to see Verstappen pass earlier and watch him waltz off into the sunset.

Exactly :thumbup:

This is like a re-hash of last year, where people said they would have been happier to see Vettel breeze by Ricciardo and charge off into the distance to an unopposed victory. Who in god's name would be entertained by that?

I think the question is; if someone is out there with a severely wounded car and yet they are still able to hold onto their position from an aggressive and much quicker opponent; what can the other drivers do to win? What could Max have done differently to win that race? He had a lot more pace than Hamilton during that final stint so I don't think being faster would have solved it. He didn't make any big mistakes and he took the only half chance that he had at trying for the lead. At the end of the day, it was up to Lewis to either hold things together or make an error and open the door for Max to pass him. I thought Lewis did a great job but without a Hamilton error, Max was never going to get by. I think that this is somewhat to be expected between top drivers at Monaco. If you had Bottas wounded in that car, it might possibly have been a different story but the degree of difficulty is too high for a driver who doesn't have track position and too low for the driver who does. The track needs at least one decent overtaking opportunity and getting rid of the chicane would produce that.

I haven't really said much about the race but when people talk about tension and excitement; I have to admit, that wasn't my overall feeling. I didn't think Hamilton was ever going to let him by. I've seen too many races at Monaco where track position has been the trump card over fresh tires or a faster engine or whatever advantage you want to name. Simply being ahead on track is 95% of the battle at Monaco and that's not racing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:11 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
I don't even want to imagine an F1 car going full beans from Poitier all the way into the wall at Tabac with zero runoff.

Nothing will create decent racing at Monaco. It is a procession and always will be but we can't/wont get rid of it.

Nonsense. If it was gone 20 years ago it’d have been too late then. It’s an excellent skills challenge, but it’s much too tight a venue since it’s inception, when cars were tiny, and with today’s large cars it’s even more confining to a single file formation all the way ‘round and it’s a waste of a race weekend.

It’s upsetting we lose other quality venues that are conducive to great racing and this time trial venue is still on the calendar. It should go away for all eternity and stay that way.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
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GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:23 pm 
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GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:54 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:


Excellent :lol:


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