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 Post subject: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:06 am 
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So we're about 18 mths away from the introduction of the much anticipated 2021 regulations.

Technically the regs should be ratified by the end of this month but it looks like the teams have agreed to delay signing off on them until October or even through to December.

Lets look at some of whats on the table:

Power Units:

The FIA have propose simpler, cheaper & noisier PU's in the hope of controlling costs & enticing new suppliers. The manufacturer teams have offered resistance to the proposal, citing cost of developing the PU plus a lack of interest from manufacturers not in the sport.

Aero:

Continue the push to remove aero dependence in the hope of promoting closer racing & increased overtaking opportunities.

Costs:

Liberty & the FIA want to control costs by standardising some non critical components both on & off the cars such as pit guns, steering racks, wheels etc. Again the teams have challenged some areas of the proposal causing a rethink of the approach to the proposal. A budget cap has also been proposed. While most teams agree in principle, the cap amount and it's parameters are still being discussed.

Revenue:

Liberty want to introduce a more equitable system of revenue distribution by winding back the historical payments some teams get.

Purchasing of customer parts:

Haas have faced some criticism over their purchasing of car components as opposed to what they manufacture in house. The FIA are looking at refining what components can be purchased from competitors weighing up the cost savings involved in buying parts as opposed to teams maintaining their independence.

Ferrari Veto.

Liberty & other teams want to remove Ferrari's power of Veto. Naturally Ferrari are resisting.

Format of the race weekend:

Liberty are reviewing the format of the GP weekend as well as the length of the yearly calendar. Changes to the quali format being one idea on the table.

For more info see:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.formula-1-in-2021-where-we-stand-and-what-happens-next.3f4zgyDjeERMFtxaymbncK.html

https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/f1-2021-regulations-overview-by-craig-scarborough

https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/03/revealed-what-liberty-told-teams-about-its-plans-for-f1-2021/

So how do we look upon these proposed changes in 2021? Will this bring the great equalisation & re-vitalisation of the sport most here hope, or will, despite all of Liberty's rhetoric & good intentions, we'll see little change from the status quo as we have now?

Also, what can we see could be some of the unintended side effects of the introduction of these changes should they be ratified?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:37 am 
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With the possible exception of the reformatting of the race weekend, these are all good ideas that would take the sport in a positive direction. More closely matched teams, cars that can follow each other more closely and the erosion of the big teams' political power within the sport are what I want to see, and it's good to see that Liberty are on the same page.

However I hold out little hope that any of these will come to fruition. We've been here before; the big teams threaten to pull out of the sport if they don't get their way and then the FIA and commercial rights holders capitulate because they deem it too much of a risk to lose the established names. Personally I think F1 would flourish regardless of the names and brands on the grid so long as the racing is good.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:35 pm 
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Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Posts: 31100
Lotus49 wrote:
Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

So basically you can cheat for short term gain and how do you deduct points from drivers going into the following season, it's quite baffling to me?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Posts: 6316
Lotus49 wrote:
Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

Rather than complaining about it because it isn't perfect, I choose to applaud it as a good start. These caps may be higher than the budgets of the smaller teams but they are MUCH lower than the current budgets of the big teams. Even when you factor in the excluded costs; these caps will lead to a slash in the budgets of teams like Mercedes and Ferrari of nearly 50%! That should have a leveling effect of sorts on the field. It should at least remove the massive gap between the big 3 and everyone else (a gap that is directly related to the relative size of the teams' budgets).


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 3123
Location: UK
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

Rather than complaining about it because it isn't perfect, I choose to applaud it as a good start. These caps may be higher than the budgets of the smaller teams but they are MUCH lower than the current budgets of the big teams. Even when you factor in the excluded costs; these caps will lead to a slash in the budgets of teams like Mercedes and Ferrari of nearly 50%! That should have a leveling effect of sorts on the field. It should at least remove the massive gap between the big 3 and everyone else (a gap that is directly related to the relative size of the teams' budgets).

I agree with this. That a budget cap is now a serious proposition should be seen as good news; as I said above, I expected Liberty to bottle it in the face of threats from the big teams as has happened in the past.

We still need to see what happens with the revenue distribution. If improvements are made here, then that could push the smaller teams' budgets up towards the cap. And this should happen, even just from the point of view that some talented people in the big teams are potentially going to lose their jobs over this and bigger budgets for the rest of the grid would create new vacancies for them to fill.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:50 am 
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2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:53 am 
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Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:03 am 
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Seems good negotiating for the smaller teams to get the cap in immediately and a three-year glide path down to the $175 removed. I can't see how you could possibly cap the salaries of the main players in the teams. They are commercial bodies in their own right.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:43 pm 
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I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:51 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


The devil will be in the detail I suppose but this is part of the reg changes i'll be particularly interested in monitoring because I feel, one way or another, it has the potential to influence the sport more than most of the other changes.

So we've the basic outline on what's exempt from the cap but for me i'm really interested to see what's not exempt. One area i'll be keen to read about is infrastructure & technology investment & if & how that's going to be regulated under the cap.

Renault have just invested tens of millions upgrading their Viry & Entstone plants. Would that be allowed to that after 2021? If so, then whats the point of a cap? If not, then all we'll see is a continuation of the have's & have nots.

All I can see a budget cap doing is allow the Williams, Racing Points & Haas of the world to continue to play in the midfield with a reduced risk of going under. On it's own I can't see a cap being of help to teams like Williams in getting back to the front of the grid, certainly if the FIA continue to heavily regulate how teams can spend that money.

As i've said before, if you're going to have a budget cap along with tight development regulations, then in my mind, all we'll get is the status quo. Now the caps agreed on, lets hope the regs are loosened up a little so teams can be creative with how the spend that money.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Canada- 19) - 125 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 321 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:03 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


The sports survived perfectly well in the past without the level of manufacturer involvement we have now. In the late 80's, early 90's, the sport had only Ferrari a manufacturer team & that's it.

The unfortunate thing here though is that those teams also control a large part of the engine supply to the sport so if Ferrari & Merc did leave & take their engines with them, we'd have almost half the grid with no power plant. With no other car manufacturer or private engine manufacturer seemingly willing to sign up to these engine regs, that'd leave only Renault & Honda to pick up the slack & whether they have the capacity to do that effectively or not will be the question.

_________________
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Canada- 19) - 125 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 321 trophies available, 23 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:32 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


The sports survived perfectly well in the past without the level of manufacturer involvement we have now. In the late 80's, early 90's, the sport had only Ferrari a manufacturer team & that's it.

The unfortunate thing here though is that those teams also control a large part of the engine supply to the sport so if Ferrari & Merc did leave & take their engines with them, we'd have almost half the grid with no power plant. With no other car manufacturer or private engine manufacturer seemingly willing to sign up to these engine regs, that'd leave only Renault & Honda to pick up the slack & whether they have the capacity to do that effectively or not will be the question.

The engine regulations are an equally important issue. In fact; they are a parallel issue as the most crucial factor in cutting costs is changing the engine regulations. F1 shouldn't exist as a test bed for road car technology. It should be a sport first and foremost. Let Mercedes do their R&D for hybrid engines on their own dime and on their own time.

Rather than aligning with normal road cars; why not align with hypercars. The Valkyrie has a NA V12 engine that i wouldn't mind F1 regs to be based around. You can even but top of the line Mercedes cars with V12s and Ferrari certainly still make some astonishing V12 engines. It's time the sport put its best foot forward IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:14 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


The sports survived perfectly well in the past without the level of manufacturer involvement we have now. In the late 80's, early 90's, the sport had only Ferrari a manufacturer team & that's it.

The unfortunate thing here though is that those teams also control a large part of the engine supply to the sport so if Ferrari & Merc did leave & take their engines with them, we'd have almost half the grid with no power plant. With no other car manufacturer or private engine manufacturer seemingly willing to sign up to these engine regs, that'd leave only Renault & Honda to pick up the slack & whether they have the capacity to do that effectively or not will be the question.

The engine regulations are an equally important issue. In fact; they are a parallel issue as the most crucial factor in cutting costs is changing the engine regulations. F1 shouldn't exist as a test bed for road car technology. It should be a sport first and foremost. Let Mercedes do their R&D for hybrid engines on their own dime and on their own time.

Rather than aligning with normal road cars; why not align with hypercars. The Valkyrie has a NA V12 engine that i wouldn't mind F1 regs to be based around. You can even but top of the line Mercedes cars with V12s and Ferrari certainly still make some astonishing V12 engines. It's time the sport put its best foot forward IMO.

This is true. I'm just worried that if we ask for V12 after the "green" V6's, the ecologists will all lose their collective sh*ts! I'm not sure if the FIA will want to send out this message. And after all the money spent all these years in these new power units, it will be seen as a massive failure (which it is in the minds of many people).


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