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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:09 pm 
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Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.

The gaps have been very very small (except Baku, where I think Hulkenberg didn't get his run in due to Kubica's crash) - so while Ricciardo has been ahead everywhere except Australia, the margin on their equivalent runs was very very small:







TrackDifference
Australia+0.008
Bahrain-0.075
China-0.004
Baku*-0.921
Spain-0.019
Monaco-0.137
Canada-0.253

Hulkenberg Ahead
Ricciardo Ahead


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:15 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.

I think Bottas and Perez are a fair bit better than Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg to me very rarely has outstanding races and in quite a few looks nowhere at all. That may sound similar to Bottas, But Bottas never crashes out. Hulkenberg has done this quite a few times over the last few years. I think Bottas is the best of the lot but wouldn't argue if some think Perez is better.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:19 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
This just shows how lucky Hamilton was in Spain that Mercedes were extremely strong. If he had a poor run like he did there with other teams significantly closer, the position difference would have been like Bottas today. The gap between the 2 in these 2 sessions was only 0.021 different. But Hamilton still got 2nd in Spain and because of how close the other teams were this time, Bottas was 6th. As silly as it sounds, Bottas didn't really do any worse than Hamilton did in Spain, he just messed up at a bad time to do so.


But I really don't understand teams decisions sometimes. Like Leclerc not getting sent back out in Monaco, since Bottas hadn't done a good run, why didn't they send him out instantly. It won't have been as good as getting a good run to start with and they getting another. But why risk 1 run in bad traffic rather than 1 with virtually nobody on track and then maybe 1 more after that. He won't have beaten Hamilton or Vettel, but 3rd would have been pretty easy IMO given Leclerc's gap to Vettel.

If Ferrari get things right this race, I think Vettel will win this. I don't see it being easy for Bottas to get past Leclerc (unless he messes up or underperforms), but I think Bottas will quite easily get past Gasly and Ricciardo. I feel 3rd is the best he can hope for now. What may make Bottas feel a bit better is that it is going to be harder for Hamilton to win. So that will mean he will still be closer to Hamilton in the championship if he finishes 4th and Hamilton 2nd compared to 1st and 2nd. Even if they finish with either of these results, Bottas will still be within a race win amount of points of Hamilton which still isn't bad. If reliability goes against Hamilton at a race Mercedes are strongest like it did in Spain 2017 for Bottas, then maybe Bottas does have a chance to remain close to Hamilton for a while longer.
But this is the first time this season it looked like he struggled a bit under pressure. Hopefully that won't continue.

I think you might want to re-think that actually. If they sent him right back out he would have run into traffic on his hot lap and not his warm up lap. Byt he time he started his hot lap there would be cars coming out of the pits on their out laps so that wouldn't have worked. Remember Q3 is very short!

Could they not have managed to get him out at the front of the queue though?


Funny thing is had that been Ferrari we wont have heard the last of the one car team nonsense and Ferrari trying to favour Vettel by ignoring Leclerc.


If they had put Bottas out at the front of the queue we wouldnt have heard the last of they had sacrificed Bottas by putting him out on a dirty track; whilst their favourite son didn't go out until Bottas and the non-Ferraris had cleaned up the track for his run.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:19 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.

I think Bottas and Perez are a fair bit better than Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg to me very rarely has outstanding races and in quite a few looks nowhere at all. That may sound similar to Bottas, But Bottas never crashes out. Hulkenberg has done this quite a few times over the last few years. I think Bottas is the best of the lot but wouldn't argue if some think Perez is better.

Hulkenberg outqualified Perez 35-24

He has the same speed at those two, but maybe not as consistent or clean.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:20 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.

The gaps have been very very small (except Baku, where I think Hulkenberg didn't get his run in due to Kubica's crash) - so while Ricciardo has been ahead everywhere except Australia, the margin on their equivalent runs was very very small:







TrackDifference
Australia+0.008
Bahrain-0.075
China-0.004
Baku*-0.921
Spain-0.019
Monaco-0.137
Canada-0.253

Hulkenberg Ahead
Ricciardo Ahead


It was me who thought they had been similar in terms of overall performance. But some think it is a bit harsh of me blaming Ricciardo for the first race, which I do. And the mistake in Baku was just ridiculous even if his pace was good. These two race ending mistakes even if 1 was a bit unfortunate make me judge them as reasonable close overall this season. The points gap isn't much at all either. But I do think ricciardo will be a fair bit better as the season goes on.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
This just shows how lucky Hamilton was in Spain that Mercedes were extremely strong. If he had a poor run like he did there with other teams significantly closer, the position difference would have been like Bottas today. The gap between the 2 in these 2 sessions was only 0.021 different. But Hamilton still got 2nd in Spain and because of how close the other teams were this time, Bottas was 6th. As silly as it sounds, Bottas didn't really do any worse than Hamilton did in Spain, he just messed up at a bad time to do so.


But I really don't understand teams decisions sometimes. Like Leclerc not getting sent back out in Monaco, since Bottas hadn't done a good run, why didn't they send him out instantly. It won't have been as good as getting a good run to start with and they getting another. But why risk 1 run in bad traffic rather than 1 with virtually nobody on track and then maybe 1 more after that. He won't have beaten Hamilton or Vettel, but 3rd would have been pretty easy IMO given Leclerc's gap to Vettel.

If Ferrari get things right this race, I think Vettel will win this. I don't see it being easy for Bottas to get past Leclerc (unless he messes up or underperforms), but I think Bottas will quite easily get past Gasly and Ricciardo. I feel 3rd is the best he can hope for now. What may make Bottas feel a bit better is that it is going to be harder for Hamilton to win. So that will mean he will still be closer to Hamilton in the championship if he finishes 4th and Hamilton 2nd compared to 1st and 2nd. Even if they finish with either of these results, Bottas will still be within a race win amount of points of Hamilton which still isn't bad. If reliability goes against Hamilton at a race Mercedes are strongest like it did in Spain 2017 for Bottas, then maybe Bottas does have a chance to remain close to Hamilton for a while longer.
But this is the first time this season it looked like he struggled a bit under pressure. Hopefully that won't continue.

I think you might want to re-think that actually. If they sent him right back out he would have run into traffic on his hot lap and not his warm up lap. Byt he time he started his hot lap there would be cars coming out of the pits on their out laps so that wouldn't have worked. Remember Q3 is very short!

Could they not have managed to get him out at the front of the queue though?


Funny thing is had that been Ferrari we wont have heard the last of the one car team nonsense and Ferrari trying to favour Vettel by ignoring Leclerc.

That's a ridiculous statement because Hamilton was right behind Valteri in that same queue. They released Lewis from the pits just seconds after Valteri. Valteri just struggled in Q3. It's not to do with anything that the team did wrong. He just didn't do a good lap.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:38 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:43 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.


How do we really know that this Bottas good start bad end is just not Hamilton being the other way round? As in, Hamilton is obviously not bad at the start, but not so good, then looks just incredible. I don't think Bottas is quite as bad as people think later in the season. Hamilton just doesn't get going quickly it seems.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.

The gaps have been very very small (except Baku, where I think Hulkenberg didn't get his run in due to Kubica's crash) - so while Ricciardo has been ahead everywhere except Australia, the margin on their equivalent runs was very very small:







TrackDifference
Australia+0.008
Bahrain-0.075
China-0.004
Baku*-0.921
Spain-0.019
Monaco-0.137
Canada-0.253

Hulkenberg Ahead
Ricciardo Ahead


Baku aside, an average of 0.080 between them. Very close so far but Ricciardo seems to be stretching it out in the last 2 races.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:45 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.


How do we really know that this Bottas good start bad end is just not Hamilton being the other way round? As in, Hamilton is obviously not bad at the start, but not so good, then looks just incredible. I don't think Bottas is quite as bad as people think later in the season. Hamilton just doesn't get going quickly it seems.


Yes, that's what it is in my opinion. Hamilton takes a while to get up to speed since the 2017 rules came in.

I could be wrong but isn't the qualifying between them in the last 10 races of each season something like 16-4... Hamilton with 12 wins, Bottas 1.

Where as the first 4 races of the 3 seasons is Hamilton 4 wins, Bottas 3.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.

I think Verstappen is just about the fastest driver on the grid. What impressed me the most about Max is not only his speed, but the fact that he’s basically never slow. Max is fast literally everywhere, every time.

Hamilton 2nd

Ricciardo and Vettel joint third. Although 2014 suggests otherwise, I think that an in-form Vettel is as quick as Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:56 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.


Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.

I think Verstappen is just about the fastest driver on the grid. What impressed me the most about Max is not only his speed, but the fact that he’s basically never slow. Max is fast literally everywhere, every time.

Hamilton 2nd

Ricciardo and Vettel joint third. Although 2014 suggests otherwise, I think that an in-form Vettel is as quick as Ricciardo.

And yet somehow, despite a year of mechanical unreliability, it was Ricciardo who set 2 pole positions last year for RBR and not Max...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:

Ricciardo making himself look good against Hulk.

Max sitting pretty by proxy.

If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.

I think Verstappen is just about the fastest driver on the grid. What impressed me the most about Max is not only his speed, but the fact that he’s basically never slow. Max is fast literally everywhere, every time.

Hamilton 2nd

Ricciardo and Vettel joint third. Although 2014 suggests otherwise, I think that an in-form Vettel is as quick as Ricciardo.

And yet somehow, despite a year of mechanical unreliability, it was Ricciardo who set 2 pole positions last year for RBR and not Max...

When pole was on the line, Dan was the more clutch driver, I’ll give him that.

But otherwise Max was usually quicker.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:32 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.

The gaps have been very very small (except Baku, where I think Hulkenberg didn't get his run in due to Kubica's crash) - so while Ricciardo has been ahead everywhere except Australia, the margin on their equivalent runs was very very small:







TrackDifference
Australia+0.008
Bahrain-0.075
China-0.004
Baku*-0.921
Spain-0.019
Monaco-0.137
Canada-0.253

Hulkenberg Ahead
Ricciardo Ahead


Baku aside, an average of 0.080 between them. Very close so far but Ricciardo seems to be stretching it out in the last 2 races.

Yes, and it's what I expect. I rank Ricciardo as having an edge on Vettel, but I also feel that Hulkenberg is one of the more underrated drivers on the grid, like Perez. I think there is a case for Renault having the strongest average driver pairing of any of the teams.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:38 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, my predictions on Bottas certainly were wrong. I mentioned this earlier. I do not know why Mercedes didn't send Bottas out instantly. He won't have beaten Hamilton, but i think he will have been a fair bit closer than this. His fault for messing up the first run, but why didn't they give him an opportunity in free air since he hadn't done any good lap?


Mine too ahaha, I predicted basically the opposite of what would happen


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:57 pm 
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Ricciardo's lap in a car that never looked comparable to Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull was brilliant, had to ride his luck with MV's misfortune but it does make quite a statement about the Renault engine. Obviously that is good for Renault but also McLaren for whom Norris is bedding in nicely.
Does seem there is a closing up of the field this year.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:02 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Nearly 8 tenths between Russell and Kubica... I don't know if Russell is just incredible or Kubica is just terrible. I think it is much more likely that Kubica just is very slow.

I think Russell is good but also Kubica with his disability is no longer really good enough for F1.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Nearly 8 tenths between Russell and Kubica... I don't know if Russell is just incredible or Kubica is just terrible. I think it is much more likely that Kubica just is very slow.


Kubica was beating Russell in Monaco until he got punted off TBF.

Was he quicker than Russell?

Track position is everything.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Verstappen starts 11th and has choice of tyre, not the worst scenario to be in. Would have started on the soft's which none of the other big teams wanted to do.


He'll finish 5th either way. It won't really make much of a difference to him.

I agree unless Ferrari have issues with tyre deg?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:17 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
This just shows how lucky Hamilton was in Spain that Mercedes were extremely strong. If he had a poor run like he did there with other teams significantly closer, the position difference would have been like Bottas today. The gap between the 2 in these 2 sessions was only 0.021 different. But Hamilton still got 2nd in Spain and because of how close the other teams were this time, Bottas was 6th. As silly as it sounds, Bottas didn't really do any worse than Hamilton did in Spain, he just messed up at a bad time to do so.


But I really don't understand teams decisions sometimes. Like Leclerc not getting sent back out in Monaco, since Bottas hadn't done a good run, why didn't they send him out instantly. It won't have been as good as getting a good run to start with and they getting another. But why risk 1 run in bad traffic rather than 1 with virtually nobody on track and then maybe 1 more after that. He won't have beaten Hamilton or Vettel, but 3rd would have been pretty easy IMO given Leclerc's gap to Vettel.

If Ferrari get things right this race, I think Vettel will win this. I don't see it being easy for Bottas to get past Leclerc (unless he messes up or underperforms), but I think Bottas will quite easily get past Gasly and Ricciardo. I feel 3rd is the best he can hope for now. What may make Bottas feel a bit better is that it is going to be harder for Hamilton to win. So that will mean he will still be closer to Hamilton in the championship if he finishes 4th and Hamilton 2nd compared to 1st and 2nd. Even if they finish with either of these results, Bottas will still be within a race win amount of points of Hamilton which still isn't bad. If reliability goes against Hamilton at a race Mercedes are strongest like it did in Spain 2017 for Bottas, then maybe Bottas does have a chance to remain close to Hamilton for a while longer.
But this is the first time this season it looked like he struggled a bit under pressure. Hopefully that won't continue.

If they had sent Bottas out earlier then that risks him having to pass cars on his flying lap whilst they are on warm up laps.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.

Indeed it's only remembered that Ricciardo struggled in the first 2 races it seems?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:23 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
This just shows how lucky Hamilton was in Spain that Mercedes were extremely strong. If he had a poor run like he did there with other teams significantly closer, the position difference would have been like Bottas today. The gap between the 2 in these 2 sessions was only 0.021 different. But Hamilton still got 2nd in Spain and because of how close the other teams were this time, Bottas was 6th. As silly as it sounds, Bottas didn't really do any worse than Hamilton did in Spain, he just messed up at a bad time to do so.


But I really don't understand teams decisions sometimes. Like Leclerc not getting sent back out in Monaco, since Bottas hadn't done a good run, why didn't they send him out instantly. It won't have been as good as getting a good run to start with and they getting another. But why risk 1 run in bad traffic rather than 1 with virtually nobody on track and then maybe 1 more after that. He won't have beaten Hamilton or Vettel, but 3rd would have been pretty easy IMO given Leclerc's gap to Vettel.

If Ferrari get things right this race, I think Vettel will win this. I don't see it being easy for Bottas to get past Leclerc (unless he messes up or underperforms), but I think Bottas will quite easily get past Gasly and Ricciardo. I feel 3rd is the best he can hope for now. What may make Bottas feel a bit better is that it is going to be harder for Hamilton to win. So that will mean he will still be closer to Hamilton in the championship if he finishes 4th and Hamilton 2nd compared to 1st and 2nd. Even if they finish with either of these results, Bottas will still be within a race win amount of points of Hamilton which still isn't bad. If reliability goes against Hamilton at a race Mercedes are strongest like it did in Spain 2017 for Bottas, then maybe Bottas does have a chance to remain close to Hamilton for a while longer.
But this is the first time this season it looked like he struggled a bit under pressure. Hopefully that won't continue.

I think you might want to re-think that actually. If they sent him right back out he would have run into traffic on his hot lap and not his warm up lap. Byt he time he started his hot lap there would be cars coming out of the pits on their out laps so that wouldn't have worked. Remember Q3 is very short!

Could they not have managed to get him out at the front of the queue though?


Funny thing is had that been Ferrari we wont have heard the last of the one car team nonsense and Ferrari trying to favour Vettel by ignoring Leclerc.

Bottas' mistakes in qualifying were down to him being unfavoured, that's some out there thinking.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:53 pm 
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There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:11 am 
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Todd wrote:
There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:58 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Todd wrote:
There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.

Yeah Verstappen was clearly getting the better of Ricciardo and I feel that's part of the reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull, it seems to be starting to work out for him if some think by getting the better of the Hulk then surely he would have turned things around against Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:11 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Todd wrote:
There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.

Yeah Verstappen was clearly getting the better of Ricciardo and I feel that's part of the reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull, it seems to be starting to work out for him if some think by getting the better of the Hulk then surely he would have turned things around against Verstappen.

To be fair; Daniel did not have a chance last season. He suffered mechanical failures in half of the race weekends.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:29 am 
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I feel Max is faster than Dan. I think he may be the fastest on the grid. This year he also seems to race better, so I think if Dan was his teammate again, it would be quite consistent- that max quali and race position, would be ahead of Dan.

I think Dan is in the top group of drivers. It’s just that it’s headed (IMO) by his previous teammate.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:03 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Todd wrote:
There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.

Yeah Verstappen was clearly getting the better of Ricciardo and I feel that's part of the reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull, it seems to be starting to work out for him if some think by getting the better of the Hulk then surely he would have turned things around against Verstappen.

To be fair; Daniel did not have a chance last season. He suffered mechanical failures in half of the race weekends.


But was almost always behind Verstappen when the mechanical woes struck.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:52 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If we assume that Hulkenberg = Bottas (not a bad assumption), then Max becomes the fastest driver in F1 almost by default.


Would that make Ricciardo the 2nd best on the grid?

It also depends which Bottas you use, the one of early season 17/18/19 that was in and around Hamiltons pace the last 2/3's of the late season one that is often miles behind him.

I think Verstappen is just about the fastest driver on the grid. What impressed me the most about Max is not only his speed, but the fact that he’s basically never slow. Max is fast literally everywhere, every time.

Hamilton 2nd

Ricciardo and Vettel joint third. Although 2014 suggests otherwise, I think that an in-form Vettel is as quick as Ricciardo.

And yet somehow, despite a year of mechanical unreliability, it was Ricciardo who set 2 pole positions last year for RBR and not Max...

When pole was on the line, Dan was the more clutch driver, I’ll give him that.

But otherwise Max was usually quicker.


I also feel Verstappen is the fastest on the grid.... although on some days and circuits Ricciardo can be be quicker. Reality is drivers are not born with a level of skill that remains constant no matter what they do. They have peaks and troughs and evolve. So it is easier to say who is faster during a given period than who is just 'faster'.

Red Bull had an amazing combination last year..... but it should not be forgotten that even though during that time he at time matched by perhaps the next best driver on the grid....... Max is still young. How good will he be by the time he reaches his peak??


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:21 am 
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There is a big difference between being fast and scoring points and winning races, Verstappen was fast at Red Bull but perhaps he was only fast because he was reckless. He has calmed this season but that could be that he does not have to feel he has to prove himself. There seems very little between them in equal cars, what makes Ricciardo's quali impressive is Renault are still developing the car rather than Red Bull who have an already proven race team.

What would be really impressive would be if he could get the yellow car on the podium, then it will nott just be Max who sits up and pays attention!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:29 am 
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Does anyone have sector times from qualifying? I think Hamilton had a yellow S3 on his second lap so I was wondering if he had equalled his first run time in S3 whether he'd have got pole, but I doubt it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:07 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Baffling that I keep hearing an argument from people that Hulk has been matching Ricciardo. On pure pace it's been a walk over.

The gaps have been very very small (except Baku, where I think Hulkenberg didn't get his run in due to Kubica's crash) - so while Ricciardo has been ahead everywhere except Australia, the margin on their equivalent runs was very very small:







TrackDifference
Australia+0.008
Bahrain-0.075
China-0.004
Baku*-0.921
Spain-0.019
Monaco-0.137
Canada-0.253

Hulkenberg Ahead
Ricciardo Ahead


It was me who thought they had been similar in terms of overall performance. But some think it is a bit harsh of me blaming Ricciardo for the first race, which I do. And the mistake in Baku was just ridiculous even if his pace was good. These two race ending mistakes even if 1 was a bit unfortunate make me judge them as reasonable close overall this season. The points gap isn't much at all either. But I do think ricciardo will be a fair bit better as the season goes on.


I think Ricciardo pretty much always runs ahead of Hulk and from that we can see he's the better driver. I agree judging there overall performance over this debatable because of the mistakes of Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:03 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Does anyone have sector times from qualifying? I think Hamilton had a yellow S3 on his second lap so I was wondering if he had equalled his first run time in S3 whether he'd have got pole, but I doubt it.


No. There was never a chance of pole once Seb hooked up his lap perfectly.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... s=7876&p=3


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:13 am 
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Verstappen starts 9th and has a free tyre choice, surely he has to be happy about that.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:22 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Todd wrote:
There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.

Yeah Verstappen was clearly getting the better of Ricciardo and I feel that's part of the reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull, it seems to be starting to work out for him if some think by getting the better of the Hulk then surely he would have turned things around against Verstappen.

To be fair; Daniel did not have a chance last season. He suffered mechanical failures in half of the race weekends.

He would have finished closer but the reality is that 80% of the time he was running behind Verstappen.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:27 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Does anyone have sector times from qualifying? I think Hamilton had a yellow S3 on his second lap so I was wondering if he had equalled his first run time in S3 whether he'd have got pole, but I doubt it.

He was only 0.071s slower so that would be no, the mistake at the hairpin has been exaggerated somewhat by Wolff methinks, someone watching at the track said that Hamilton seemed to take the hairpin reasonably well.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:32 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Verstappen starts 9th and has a free tyre choice, surely he has to be happy about that.

As opposed to starting 3rd on softs, yeah it probably doesn't make a big difference with the softs not being a good race tyre.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Todd wrote:
There are any number of people who need to revisit the time Riccardo and Verstappen spent as teammates. Riccardo had the measure of Verstappen until RedBull picked wrong and started giving Riccardo the brown-bottle treatment to make Verstappen into more than he is. This season would have been thrice as exciting if Riccardo had been in Verstappen's car so far.

First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.

Yeah Verstappen was clearly getting the better of Ricciardo and I feel that's part of the reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull, it seems to be starting to work out for him if some think by getting the better of the Hulk then surely he would have turned things around against Verstappen.

To be fair; Daniel did not have a chance last season. He suffered mechanical failures in half of the race weekends.

He would have finished closer but the reality is that 80% of the time he was running behind Verstappen.


Missing running time has its costs. What you're saying is exactly as true as saying Gasly was ahead of Verstappen in almost every session this weekend. Verstappen isn't without talent, but he's never won a race he had no business winning and he's lost at least one due to his own failings. Riccardo didn't even lose every one where his car broke.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:23 pm 
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Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
First part sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me. As for this season Ricciardo has done a good job given the change in teams and I absolutely consider him one of the best put there but Verstappen has been supreme, easily the driver of the season so far for me, it's hard to see how Ricciardo could do any better.

Yeah Verstappen was clearly getting the better of Ricciardo and I feel that's part of the reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull, it seems to be starting to work out for him if some think by getting the better of the Hulk then surely he would have turned things around against Verstappen.

To be fair; Daniel did not have a chance last season. He suffered mechanical failures in half of the race weekends.

He would have finished closer but the reality is that 80% of the time he was running behind Verstappen.


Missing running time has its costs. What you're saying is exactly as true as saying Gasly was ahead of Verstappen in almost every session this weekend. Verstappen isn't without talent, but he's never won a race he had no business winning and he's lost at least one due to his own failings. Riccardo didn't even lose every one where his car broke.


Seems a very arbitrary way to compare the two drivers. Especially as we have seen them as team mates. By 2018 Verstappen was clearly the quicker driver.


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