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Canada 2019: Vettel Penalty
As per the rules, the penalty is correct and justified 29%  29%  [ 29 ]
As per the rules, the penalty is correct, but it seems harsh and shouldn't have been awarded 12%  12%  [ 12 ]
As per the rules, the penalty is correct. It seems harsh but it's consistent and that's what has been asked for 25%  25%  [ 25 ]
Penalty not justified at all, Vettel had no way to comply with what the rules state 29%  29%  [ 29 ]
Problem is the rules, not the stewards 4%  4%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 99
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:26 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think that there is something in this crowding off the track thing. But it never, ever usually gets penalised. It usually doesn't even get thought of as a possible penalty.

Look at this from Hungary 2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0&t=22s

Bottas completely crowds Verstappen off the circuit at turn 1 and it never even got a mention.


The stewards seemed to think that Vettel could have left room for Hamilton, and had deliberately closed the gap, forcing Hamilton off the track and to back off or have an accident.
So in some ways, they are saying that it wasn't an unsafe return, until Vettel started to crowd Hamilton off the track.

Your mention of Hungary reminds me of a corner at Hungary where the racing line would tend to give an opportunity to go round the outside on the left-hander and then have the inside line for the right-hander.
At 4:10 Magnussen runs Hulkenberg well away from the racing line so that Magnussen goes right to the outside of the track, leaving no chance for Hulkenberg to stay on the track. Magnussen got a 5 second penalty - like Vettel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0

There have been other similar situations (of going way off the racing line to force another driver off the track) at that corner (but not as blatant), that were not penalised.

The circuit was probably designed for that corner combination to provide a possibility for an overtake, but the drivers are allowed on most occasions to use very little skill to defend and force the other driver off the track.



From what I read elsewhere in the above examples crowding into a corner is a no no and as you go through the corner it becomes less of an issue, and acceptable coming out of the corner.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:13 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think that there is something in this crowding off the track thing. But it never, ever usually gets penalised. It usually doesn't even get thought of as a possible penalty.

Look at this from Hungary 2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0&t=22s

Bottas completely crowds Verstappen off the circuit at turn 1 and it never even got a mention.


The stewards seemed to think that Vettel could have left room for Hamilton, and had deliberately closed the gap, forcing Hamilton off the track and to back off or have an accident.
So in some ways, they are saying that it wasn't an unsafe return, until Vettel started to crowd Hamilton off the track.

Your mention of Hungary reminds me of a corner at Hungary where the racing line would tend to give an opportunity to go round the outside on the left-hander and then have the inside line for the right-hander.
At 4:10 Magnussen runs Hulkenberg well away from the racing line so that Magnussen goes right to the outside of the track, leaving no chance for Hulkenberg to stay on the track. Magnussen got a 5 second penalty - like Vettel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0

There have been other similar situations (of going way off the racing line to force another driver off the track) at that corner (but not as blatant), that were not penalised.

The circuit was probably designed for that corner combination to provide a possibility for an overtake, but the drivers are allowed on most occasions to use very little skill to defend and force the other driver off the track.



From what I read elsewhere in the above examples crowding into a corner is a no no and as you go through the corner it becomes less of an issue, and acceptable coming out of the corner.
It's what Charlie Whiting briefed on a few years ago. I believe it was after one of Max's actions (I'm not sure which year, nor whether it was post-Hungary or post-Belgium, but definitely during the summer). Ever since, I've been trying to find his rationale for explaining why a driver can run a competitor off the track, provided he was ahead at the apex.

In the case of Vettel at Montreal, I wonder whether being the wrong side of the apex counted or not. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6869
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think that there is something in this crowding off the track thing. But it never, ever usually gets penalised. It usually doesn't even get thought of as a possible penalty.

Look at this from Hungary 2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0&t=22s

Bottas completely crowds Verstappen off the circuit at turn 1 and it never even got a mention.


The stewards seemed to think that Vettel could have left room for Hamilton, and had deliberately closed the gap, forcing Hamilton off the track and to back off or have an accident.
So in some ways, they are saying that it wasn't an unsafe return, until Vettel started to crowd Hamilton off the track.

Your mention of Hungary reminds me of a corner at Hungary where the racing line would tend to give an opportunity to go round the outside on the left-hander and then have the inside line for the right-hander.
At 4:10 Magnussen runs Hulkenberg well away from the racing line so that Magnussen goes right to the outside of the track, leaving no chance for Hulkenberg to stay on the track. Magnussen got a 5 second penalty - like Vettel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0

There have been other similar situations (of going way off the racing line to force another driver off the track) at that corner (but not as blatant), that were not penalised.

The circuit was probably designed for that corner combination to provide a possibility for an overtake, but the drivers are allowed on most occasions to use very little skill to defend and force the other driver off the track.



From what I read elsewhere in the above examples crowding into a corner is a no no and as you go through the corner it becomes less of an issue, and acceptable coming out of the corner.
It's what Charlie Whiting briefed on a few years ago. I believe it was after one of Max's actions (I'm not sure which year, nor whether it was post-Hungary or post-Belgium, but definitely during the summer). Ever since, I've been trying to find his rationale for explaining why a driver can run a competitor off the track, provided he was ahead at the apex.

In the case of Vettel at Montreal, I wonder whether being the wrong side of the apex counted or not. :)

Honestly it's as though people are deliberately missing the point. It's not about crowding someone off the track. It's about doing that while rejoining the circuit. The other examples of crowding that you guys are looking at did not involve a car running off onto the grass and then rejoining. When you are rejoining, you can't get in anyone's way or force them to take avoiding action. This is actually a very simple thing to understand but people just seem unwilling to look at it in simple terms...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7812
Location: Belgium
sandman1347 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think that there is something in this crowding off the track thing. But it never, ever usually gets penalised. It usually doesn't even get thought of as a possible penalty.

Look at this from Hungary 2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0&t=22s

Bottas completely crowds Verstappen off the circuit at turn 1 and it never even got a mention.


The stewards seemed to think that Vettel could have left room for Hamilton, and had deliberately closed the gap, forcing Hamilton off the track and to back off or have an accident.
So in some ways, they are saying that it wasn't an unsafe return, until Vettel started to crowd Hamilton off the track.

Your mention of Hungary reminds me of a corner at Hungary where the racing line would tend to give an opportunity to go round the outside on the left-hander and then have the inside line for the right-hander.
At 4:10 Magnussen runs Hulkenberg well away from the racing line so that Magnussen goes right to the outside of the track, leaving no chance for Hulkenberg to stay on the track. Magnussen got a 5 second penalty - like Vettel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0

There have been other similar situations (of going way off the racing line to force another driver off the track) at that corner (but not as blatant), that were not penalised.

The circuit was probably designed for that corner combination to provide a possibility for an overtake, but the drivers are allowed on most occasions to use very little skill to defend and force the other driver off the track.



From what I read elsewhere in the above examples crowding into a corner is a no no and as you go through the corner it becomes less of an issue, and acceptable coming out of the corner.
It's what Charlie Whiting briefed on a few years ago. I believe it was after one of Max's actions (I'm not sure which year, nor whether it was post-Hungary or post-Belgium, but definitely during the summer). Ever since, I've been trying to find his rationale for explaining why a driver can run a competitor off the track, provided he was ahead at the apex.

In the case of Vettel at Montreal, I wonder whether being the wrong side of the apex counted or not. :)

Honestly it's as though people are deliberately missing the point. It's not about crowding someone off the track. It's about doing that while rejoining the circuit. The other examples of crowding that you guys are looking at did not involve a car running off onto the grass and then rejoining. When you are rejoining, you can't get in anyone's way or force them to take avoiding action. This is actually a very simple thing to understand but people just seem unwilling to look at it in simple terms...
If it were as you claim, then there was no need for the stewards to see whether the crowding was deliberate or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
If it were as you claim, then there was no need for the stewards to see whether the crowding was deliberate or not.

The fact is that there was no need for them to establish that. This is the red herring that everyone is following; this idea that it had to be deliberate. That's simply not true.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Posts: 7812
Location: Belgium
sandman1347 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
If it were as you claim, then there was no need for the stewards to see whether the crowding was deliberate or not.

The fact is that there was no need for them to establish that. This is the red herring that everyone is following; this idea that it had to be deliberate. That's simply not true.
So the stewards now prefer to let people wait for a verdict, while they go off chasing red herrings?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Posts: 6869
Fiki wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
If it were as you claim, then there was no need for the stewards to see whether the crowding was deliberate or not.

The fact is that there was no need for them to establish that. This is the red herring that everyone is following; this idea that it had to be deliberate. That's simply not true.
So the stewards now prefer to let people wait for a verdict, while they go off chasing red herrings?

Perhaps my interpretation is wrong but I see no reference to intent in the rules. The rule simply says that you must rejoin the track safely and without causing another driver to take avoiding action.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Posts: 7812
Location: Belgium
sandman1347 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
If it were as you claim, then there was no need for the stewards to see whether the crowding was deliberate or not.

The fact is that there was no need for them to establish that. This is the red herring that everyone is following; this idea that it had to be deliberate. That's simply not true.
So the stewards now prefer to let people wait for a verdict, while they go off chasing red herrings?

Perhaps my interpretation is wrong but I see no reference to intent in the rules. The rule simply says that you must rejoin the track safely and without causing another driver to take avoiding action.
At the risk of being pedantic, that is not what the rule says. Dolomite quoted the actual rules in the first post of this thread:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Rules
1) Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage.
2) Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
3) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1672
shoot999 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think that there is something in this crowding off the track thing. But it never, ever usually gets penalised. It usually doesn't even get thought of as a possible penalty.

Look at this from Hungary 2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0&t=22s

Bottas completely crowds Verstappen off the circuit at turn 1 and it never even got a mention.


The stewards seemed to think that Vettel could have left room for Hamilton, and had deliberately closed the gap, forcing Hamilton off the track and to back off or have an accident.
So in some ways, they are saying that it wasn't an unsafe return, until Vettel started to crowd Hamilton off the track.

Your mention of Hungary reminds me of a corner at Hungary where the racing line would tend to give an opportunity to go round the outside on the left-hander and then have the inside line for the right-hander.
At 4:10 Magnussen runs Hulkenberg well away from the racing line so that Magnussen goes right to the outside of the track, leaving no chance for Hulkenberg to stay on the track. Magnussen got a 5 second penalty - like Vettel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0

There have been other similar situations (of going way off the racing line to force another driver off the track) at that corner (but not as blatant), that were not penalised.

The circuit was probably designed for that corner combination to provide a possibility for an overtake, but the drivers are allowed on most occasions to use very little skill to defend and force the other driver off the track.



From what I read elsewhere in the above examples crowding into a corner is a no no and as you go through the corner it becomes less of an issue, and acceptable coming out of the corner.


But is that written down anywhere by the FIA as an amendment to the rules?

If the rule is
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
then you shouldn't be allowed to deliberately force another driver off the track anywhere.

I'd be all in favour of that rule being applied, as I would like the racing to take place on the track and it doesn't take much skill to force another driver off the track.

Vettel was arguing that his return to the track was all part of him losing control and he only gained full control of the car after he had blocked Hamilton's line.
The stewards seemed to think otherwise and considered he had acted deliberately at some stage to create the block/unsafe return.

One issue is 'Is it an unsafe return' or 'Is it a potentially safe return that was turned into crowding another driver off the track', or as Vettel seemed to be arguing, 'Is it a loss of control that was only recovered when it was too late to avoid blocking another driver's line'?

The stewards seemed to think it was the second of those 3 (which would also then qualify as the first of those 3).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:40 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Hahahahaha they kept saying they had new revolutionary evidence, they put so much effort into this and they came up with frickin chandhok's sky TV analysis

Ferrari are actually one of the most pathetic teams on the grid this season
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Wow I did not know it was based on Chandoks opinion....

They've certainly made themselves a bit of joke, I assume to keep Vettel happy. I hope it was worth it.



:lol: It's so funny that it's actually hard to believe it really happened. What a joke.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:00 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Hahahahaha they kept saying they had new revolutionary evidence, they put so much effort into this and they came up with frickin chandhok's sky TV analysis

Ferrari are actually one of the most pathetic teams on the grid this season

Come on, be fair, they said "a significant and relevant new element" not revolutionary. And they presented 7 things, only one of which was Chandok's analysis.


Don't get me wrong, I did find the attempt pathetic myself but I think your comment is just rich. Apart from that, I seriously think that the Ferrari suits need to fire their lawyers. Witness statement from Vettel? Really? One of the two drivers involved swearing that he didn't do it? Ground breaking evidence indeed.... NOT.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:01 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think that there is something in this crowding off the track thing. But it never, ever usually gets penalised. It usually doesn't even get thought of as a possible penalty.

Look at this from Hungary 2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0&t=22s

Bottas completely crowds Verstappen off the circuit at turn 1 and it never even got a mention.


The stewards seemed to think that Vettel could have left room for Hamilton, and had deliberately closed the gap, forcing Hamilton off the track and to back off or have an accident.
So in some ways, they are saying that it wasn't an unsafe return, until Vettel started to crowd Hamilton off the track.

Your mention of Hungary reminds me of a corner at Hungary where the racing line would tend to give an opportunity to go round the outside on the left-hander and then have the inside line for the right-hander.
At 4:10 Magnussen runs Hulkenberg well away from the racing line so that Magnussen goes right to the outside of the track, leaving no chance for Hulkenberg to stay on the track. Magnussen got a 5 second penalty - like Vettel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0

There have been other similar situations (of going way off the racing line to force another driver off the track) at that corner (but not as blatant), that were not penalised.

The circuit was probably designed for that corner combination to provide a possibility for an overtake, but the drivers are allowed on most occasions to use very little skill to defend and force the other driver off the track.



From what I read elsewhere in the above examples crowding into a corner is a no no and as you go through the corner it becomes less of an issue, and acceptable coming out of the corner.


But is that written down anywhere by the FIA as an amendment to the rules?

If the rule is
"Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited."
then you shouldn't be allowed to deliberately force another driver off the track anywhere.

I'd be all in favour of that rule being applied, as I would like the racing to take place on the track and it doesn't take much skill to force another driver off the track.

Vettel was arguing that his return to the track was all part of him losing control and he only gained full control of the car after he had blocked Hamilton's line.
The stewards seemed to think otherwise and considered he had acted deliberately at some stage to create the block/unsafe return.

One issue is 'Is it an unsafe return' or 'Is it a potentially safe return that was turned into crowding another driver off the track', or as Vettel seemed to be arguing, 'Is it a loss of control that was only recovered when it was too late to avoid blocking another driver's line'?

The stewards seemed to think it was the second of those 3 (which would also then qualify as the first of those 3).


I think that part of the debate is the enforcement of the rules. They seem arbitrary sometimes!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:56 pm 
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Sebastian Vettel’s F1 Canadian Grand Prix ‘Win’ Immortalized by Very Unusual Diecast

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Source: https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... zm19gx.png

:lol:

More info at: https://jalopnik.com/sebastian-vettel-s ... 1835908480

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