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Which driver won each intra-team battle in Canada?
Poll ended at Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm
Hamilton 10%  10%  [ 40 ]
Bottas 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Vettel 9%  9%  [ 34 ]
Leclerc 3%  3%  [ 10 ]
Verstappen 10%  10%  [ 39 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Ricciardo 9%  9%  [ 34 ]
Hulkenberg 2%  2%  [ 9 ]
Magnussen 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
Grosjean 8%  8%  [ 32 ]
Sainz 5%  5%  [ 18 ]
Norris 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Perez 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Stroll 10%  10%  [ 40 ]
Raikkonen 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Giovinazzi 6%  6%  [ 22 ]
Albon 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
Kvyat 8%  8%  [ 30 ]
Russell 9%  9%  [ 36 ]
Kubica 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 392
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:49 pm 
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The results from Monaco are:

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Mercedes
TMW race winner: Hamilton (89%)
Hamilton 4 - 2 Bottas
Hamilton 56% - 44% Bottas

It's starting to feel a lot like 2018 in the PF1 TMW department. After Baku in 2018, it was 2-2. After Baky in 2019, it was 2-2. Then Lewis went ahead and won all but two of the remaining votes for the year and, so far, he's repeating that. Victory in Monaco came after victory in Monaco, allowing the 5x WDC to open up a 4-2 lead for the year so far. The percentage side of things doesn't look too bad for Valtteri just yet but, having 2018 in mind, it could potentially get quite messy quite quickly. Maybe it isn't such a bad season for Esteban Ocon after all...

Ferrari
TMW race winner: Vettel (89%)
Vettel 5 - 1 Leclerc
Vettel 56% - 44% Leclerc

Interestingly, the TMW situation at Ferrari isn't all that dissimilar from the one at Mercedes. The percentages are almost identical - Vettel has 56.13% to be exact while Hamilton has 56.21%. Sebastian does have an extra TMW win to his name, however, having now strung four of them together in a row. What was anticipated to be one of the closer TMW battles isn't necessarily playing out that way, in spite of the fact that I don't think anyone would argue Seb is driving even close to his best.

Red Bull
TMW race winner: Verstappen (100%)
Verstappen 6 - 0 Gasly
Verstappen 97% - 3% Gasly

There are three certainties in life: death, taxes, and a Max Verstappen TMW win. Remarkably, despite dominating the 2019 TMW vote to this point, Verstappen has found a way to further increase his percentage lead to 97%. I say 'remarkably' but the truth is it isn't all that remarkable. Pierre Gasly has received all of five votes so far, four of which came at once race (Baku) and is having an incredibly tough baptism alongside Max. It's difficult to know what else to say, really. As much as I personally don't think Red Bull stand to gain anything by dropping Pierre and giving the seat to Albon (same issue as Gasly in that it would be way too much too soon) or Kvyat, Gasly's so far behind Max that I'm starting to believe that's what'll happen.

Renault
TMW race winner: Ricciardo (100%)
Ricciardo 4 - 2 Hulkenberg
Ricciardo 43% - 57% Hulkenberg

Another driver starting to take a little bit of a battering is Nico Hulkenberg. He did, of course, open the season with two TMW wins from the first two races, but that's a trend that has reversed even quicker than Daniel Ricciardo in Baku. It's Ricciardo who now has all the momentum after receiving the TMW vote at the last four events, opening up a 4-2 lead in the process and handing the Hulk his first zero pointer of 2019. Is it too early to suggest that if such form continues, his seemingly stable seat at Renault could yet start looking less secure?

Haas
TMW race winner: Magnussen (67%)
Magnussen 5 - 1 Grosjean
Magnussen 80% - 20% Grosjean

The tightest TMW vote in Monaco was that of the Haas pairing. Kevin Magnussen claimed just over two-thirds of the votes to take his fifth TMW win of the year on the back of a strong performance in qualifying, and in spite of Grosjean scoring his second points finish in a row. It leaves the Dangerous Dane (how has this nickname not caught on?) with a healthy 5-1 lead, and an even healthier 60% advantage. After recovering enough to keep his seat last year, you do have to wonder if Romain would be given that chance again or if Haas will decide enough is enough?

McLaren
TMW race winner: Sainz (100%)
Sainz 4 - 2 Norris
Sainz 44% - 56% Norris

You could almost rinse and repeat what I wrote for Renault here. One driver started the year off by racing out into a 2-0 advantage only to then lose the next four TMW votes, including registering a first zero point score at Monaco. And yet both Nico and Lando hold an advantage on the percentage side of things, mainly due to a higher number of votes in the two races where they picked up their only TMW wins. The only difference is that Lando is probably (I say 'probably' because it is McLaren) going to be given more leeway as a rookie and a run of bad results might be explained away as part of the learning curve.

Racing Point
TMW race winner: Perez (94%)
Perez 5 - 1 Stroll
Perez 72% - 28% Stroll

Australia seems a long time ago, doesn't it Lance? It's now five successive TMW wins for Checo Perez, a 5-1 TMW lead, and a healthy 72-28 advantage as far as percentage goes for the season. Meanwhile Lance Stroll hasn't made it out of Q1 since the days of Hispania (at least that's how it feels), which becomes a particularly bad streak to continue when the race is at Monaco, easily the worst place on the calendar to start well down the order. Only a race of attrition (and specifically, attrition involving his teammate) was going to undo another poor Saturday and that did not happen, so Lance takes another TMW loss.

Alfa-Romeo
TMW race winner: Raikkonen (100%)
Raikkonen 6 - 0 Giovinazzi
Raikkonen 99% - 2% Giovinazzi

Wait, it turns out there are four certainties in life: death, taxes, Max winning the TMW vote for Red Bull, and Kimi Raikkonen winning the PF1 TMW vote for Alfa Romeo. To be fair to Giovinazzi, he's getting closer to Kimi, and another grid penalty didn't really do him any favours. But closer isn't close enough, at least not to the PF1 forum, who quite hilariously hand him his fifth successive zero point race. For comparison's sake, the most successive zero point votes across the whole of 2018 was the three Bottas received in the final three races.

Toro Rosso
TMW race winner: Kvyat (83%)
Albon 3 - 3 Kvyat
Albon 42% - 58% Kvyat

The most competitive TMW battle remains that at Toro Rosso. After watching his rookie teammate string together a run of three TMW wins in a row, Daniil Kvyat has rebounded nicely and put together a little streak of his own, levelling the scores at 3 wins each and extending a slim advantage in terms of the percentage for the year. With Pierre Gasly continuing to get whooped by Max Verstappen, each passing race increases the likelihood that Red Bull could look to promote the leading Toro Rosso driver before the end of the season. Whether that comes to pass or not is another matter, but in a sport where you're often only as good as your last race, it doesn't hurt to be the in-form Toro Rosso driver...

Williams
TMW race winner: Russell (69%)
Russell 6 - 0 Kubica
Russell 95% - 5% Kubica

How many certainties did I say there are in life...?! It's now also 6-0 at Williams as rookie George Russell further increases his lead. This actually represented Kubica's best race of 2019 so far, at least in terms of the way the TMW votes were shared out, as he managed a full 31% of the vote. That he hasn't a single TMW win after six races but doesn't have one of the two worst records also goes to show just how bad we all think Gasly and Giovinazzi are doing...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:57 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Wait, it turns out there are four certainties in life: death, taxes, Max winning the TMW vote for Red Bull, and Kimi Raikkonen winning the PF1 TMW vote for Alfa Romeo.

While the other two certainties seem safe, I think this one is heading for the realm of uncertainty after Canada...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:04 am 
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Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:49 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

Isn't the above for Monaco?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:08 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

Isn't the above for Monaco?


I'm not sure which one mcdo is referring to. The numbers in the first post are the results from Monaco, yes, but the poll is pretty close (currently 9-8 to Lando) and could've been in Carlos' favour at the time of mcdo's post.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:12 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

Isn't the above for Monaco?

I'm not sure which one mcdo is referring to. The numbers in the first post are the results from Monaco, yes, but the poll is pretty close (currently 9-8 to Lando) and could've been in Carlos' favour at the time of mcdo's post.

Oops - missed the voting bit! Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:55 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

Isn't the above for Monaco?


I'm not sure which one mcdo is referring to. The numbers in the first post are the results from Monaco, yes, but the poll is pretty close (currently 9-8 to Lando) and could've been in Carlos' favour at the time of mcdo's post.

Yeah that was it. It was like 6-5 Sainz at the time

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:31 pm 
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For the first time this season, I've actually got the time to write a reply and say who I voted for and why!

Hamilton - pretty easy choice here. Fastest Mercedes when it mattered in quali, won the race by pushing Vettel into a mistake. Didn't have a flawless race of his own but at least he had the pace, something Bottas seemed to be missing.

Vettel - The race wasn't actually that clear because Charles wasn't that much slower up until Seb's first stop, then lost a bundle of time by being left out longer, which he regained at the end of the race (very nearly taking P2 from Seb in the process). Seb also had the mistake which ultimately cost him the win. But his lap in Q3 is what swings it for me.

Verstappen - Honestly, Gasly's lack of pace was kind of embarrassing. You just know if Max had made Q3, he would've been right there with the front three. Meanwhile Pierre gets *three* hot laps and still ends up behind Danny Ric. And ultimately ends up well behind Max despite starting four places ahead of him. Easy decision.

Ricciardo - Much like Ferrari, quali plays a huge part here. The pace of each in the race wasn't all that dissimilar. Hulk did a good job getting the softs to last as long as he did, and then ultimately was told not to attack Ricciardo at the end when the tyre advantage he'd earned was due to benefit him. But Ricciardo was the star of quali and didn't really do anything wrong in the race.

Grosjean - RoGro had his Q2 lap ruined by his teammate. Not sure if he would've got into Q3 but you can't blame him for that either way. He also didn't have the cheek to criticise the car on the radio after the team had spent the night rebuilding it. Not a good weekend for Magnussen.

Norris - Chuck didn't make a mistake on his Q3 lap, which Carlos did (having already got a penalty). Lando jumped Max at the start and was looking racey until the car let him down, no fault of his own.

Stroll - I'm always happy to criticise Lance but he did a very good job in qualifying relative to Checo, considering he was running the older engine, and he executed the strategy they gave him. Perez was perhaps a little lucky to not get a penalty after throwing it up the inside at the first corner and had a nothing race afterwards.

Giovinazzi - Kimi had an anonymous weekend and Giovinazzi took advantage. I'm completely speculating here, but I wonder if Kimi's interest is waining a little now that Alfa have fallen back from the heights of the first four races? He really seemed out of sorts.

Kvyat - Given Albon's race was ruined at turn one, all you can really do for a direct comparison is look at quali and Daniil was ahead. It doesn't hurt that he ended up picking up a point as well, so it's not like he didn't have a decent race to back that up.

Russell - Just retire, Rob. It's embarrassing now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:12 pm 
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No, I don't think so. Although Kimi gave a classic interview last weekend. lol
https://www.planetf1.com/news/another-case-of-classic-kimi-in-canada/

Not sure why he pitted second time for Soft. Fastest lap was never on cards anyways and he finished only few secs behind his team mate. Antonio has also improved. Previously the gap used to be so big that Kimi would be ahead even by taking extra pitstop which is usually the case between Max and Gasly

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:36 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

I voted for Sainz, now I'm wondering why I did that? :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

I voted for Sainz, now I'm wondering why I did that? :?


I didn't vote for a McLaren driver because I actually thought Sainz drove a good race after the early enforced pit stop through no fault of his own. There wasn't really a comparison possible with Norris although I understand why people would vote for Norris on the basis of qualifying


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:27 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
For the first time this season, I've actually got the time to write a reply and say who I voted for and why!

Hamilton - pretty easy choice here. Fastest Mercedes when it mattered in quali, won the race by pushing Vettel into a mistake. Didn't have a flawless race of his own but at least he had the pace, something Bottas seemed to be missing.

Vettel - The race wasn't actually that clear because Charles wasn't that much slower up until Seb's first stop, then lost a bundle of time by being left out longer, which he regained at the end of the race (very nearly taking P2 from Seb in the process). Seb also had the mistake which ultimately cost him the win. But his lap in Q3 is what swings it for me.

Verstappen - Honestly, Gasly's lack of pace was kind of embarrassing. You just know if Max had made Q3, he would've been right there with the front three. Meanwhile Pierre gets *three* hot laps and still ends up behind Danny Ric. And ultimately ends up well behind Max despite starting four places ahead of him. Easy decision.

Ricciardo - Much like Ferrari, quali plays a huge part here. The pace of each in the race wasn't all that dissimilar. Hulk did a good job getting the softs to last as long as he did, and then ultimately was told not to attack Ricciardo at the end when the tyre advantage he'd earned was due to benefit him. But Ricciardo was the star of quali and didn't really do anything wrong in the race.

Grosjean - RoGro had his Q2 lap ruined by his teammate. Not sure if he would've got into Q3 but you can't blame him for that either way. He also didn't have the cheek to criticise the car on the radio after the team had spent the night rebuilding it. Not a good weekend for Magnussen.

Norris - Chuck didn't make a mistake on his Q3 lap, which Carlos did (having already got a penalty). Lando jumped Max at the start and was looking racey until the car let him down, no fault of his own.

Stroll - I'm always happy to criticise Lance but he did a very good job in qualifying relative to Checo, considering he was running the older engine, and he executed the strategy they gave him. Perez was perhaps a little lucky to not get a penalty after throwing it up the inside at the first corner and had a nothing race afterwards.

Giovinazzi - Kimi had an anonymous weekend and Giovinazzi took advantage. I'm completely speculating here, but I wonder if Kimi's interest is waining a little now that Alfa have fallen back from the heights of the first four races? He really seemed out of sorts.

Kvyat - Given Albon's race was ruined at turn one, all you can really do for a direct comparison is look at quali and Daniil was ahead. It doesn't hurt that he ended up picking up a point as well, so it's not like he didn't have a decent race to back that up.

Russell - Just retire, Rob. It's embarrassing now.


Other than Norris for the reasons stated in my previous post, I agree with all of this :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:29 pm 
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Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:28 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?


One of the Magnusson votes was due to my fat finger hitting wrong option :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:29 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?

I voted for Magnussen before I remembered that he was possibly responsible for Grosjean getting knocked out of Q2, so I can give my reasoning at the time. They were both terrible in the race, so I went purely on quali.

As for Gasly and Perez... I would assume similar reasoning, although it makes less sense. You could blame Max for not getting in a lap on softs and costing himself a chance at Q3, but the race cancels that out. Perez was quicker than Lance in quali (as always), but he was weaker when it counts.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:22 am 
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Azi wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?


One of the Magnusson votes was due to my fat finger hitting wrong option :lol:


.....and don't EVER do that again!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:34 am 
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JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

I voted for Sainz, now I'm wondering why I did that? :?


I didn't vote for a McLaren driver because I actually thought Sainz drove a good race after the early enforced pit stop through no fault of his own. There wasn't really a comparison possible with Norris although I understand why people would vote for Norris on the basis of qualifying

And overtaking Max Verstappen at one point was pretty good going. You won't see a McLaren do that often in 2019

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:47 am 
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mcdo wrote:
JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Why does Sainz have more votes than Norris? Norris outqualified Sainz and was dicing with Verstappen before his car cooked itself. Sainz messed up his qualy, copped a grid penalty and came home with no points

I voted for Sainz, now I'm wondering why I did that? :?


I didn't vote for a McLaren driver because I actually thought Sainz drove a good race after the early enforced pit stop through no fault of his own. There wasn't really a comparison possible with Norris although I understand why people would vote for Norris on the basis of qualifying

And overtaking Max Verstappen at one point was pretty good going. You won't see a McLaren do that often in 2019

Indeed although the difference in performance between soft tyres and hard tyres helped a bit?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:20 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?

I voted for Magnussen before I remembered that he was possibly responsible for Grosjean getting knocked out of Q2, so I can give my reasoning at the time. They were both terrible in the race, so I went purely on quali.

As for Gasly and Perez... I would assume similar reasoning, although it makes less sense. You could blame Max for not getting in a lap on softs and costing himself a chance at Q3, but the race cancels that out. Perez was quicker than Lance in quali (as always), but he was weaker when it counts.

Didn't you see what happened to grosjean at the start? Several drivers contacted ahead of him and their pieces flew on to his car in the first corner. He can to cut the corner while trying to remove bits by hand. He lost seveal places here I think. Then he got bumped by perez doing a a rather cheeky move in the same area later on. Then there was the bad luck in qualifying too. Grosjean is a magnet for bad luck this season. That bad luck is making magnussen look far better than he is. I don't think there is much between them at all this season. Despite some not thinking this, I think Grosjean is looking a fair bit better to the start he had last year. The crashes he's had are not his fault. If i listed his bad luck this season, it would incredibly long.

All this said, i still wouldn't argue that magnussen had looked a little better overall.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:26 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?

I voted for Magnussen before I remembered that he was possibly responsible for Grosjean getting knocked out of Q2, so I can give my reasoning at the time. They were both terrible in the race, so I went purely on quali.

As for Gasly and Perez... I would assume similar reasoning, although it makes less sense. You could blame Max for not getting in a lap on softs and costing himself a chance at Q3, but the race cancels that out. Perez was quicker than Lance in quali (as always), but he was weaker when it counts.

Didn't you see what happened to grosjean at the start? Several drivers contacted ahead of him and their pieces flew on to his car in the first corner. He can to cut the corner while trying to remove bits by hand. He lost seveal places here I think. Then he got bumped by perez doing a a rather cheeky move in the same area later on. Then there was the bad luck in qualifying too. Grosjean is a magnet for bad luck this season. That bad luck is making magnussen look far better than he is. I don't think there is much between them at all this season. Despite some not thinking this, I think Grosjean is looking a fair bit better to the start he had last year. The crashes he's had are not his fault. If i listed his bad luck this season, it would incredibly long.

All this said, i still wouldn't argue that magnussen had looked a little better overall.


I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?

I voted for Magnussen before I remembered that he was possibly responsible for Grosjean getting knocked out of Q2, so I can give my reasoning at the time. They were both terrible in the race, so I went purely on quali.

As for Gasly and Perez... I would assume similar reasoning, although it makes less sense. You could blame Max for not getting in a lap on softs and costing himself a chance at Q3, but the race cancels that out. Perez was quicker than Lance in quali (as always), but he was weaker when it counts.

Didn't you see what happened to grosjean at the start? Several drivers contacted ahead of him and their pieces flew on to his car in the first corner. He can to cut the corner while trying to remove bits by hand. He lost seveal places here I think. Then he got bumped by perez doing a a rather cheeky move in the same area later on. Then there was the bad luck in qualifying too. Grosjean is a magnet for bad luck this season. That bad luck is making magnussen look far better than he is. I don't think there is much between them at all this season. Despite some not thinking this, I think Grosjean is looking a fair bit better to the start he had last year. The crashes he's had are not his fault. If i listed his bad luck this season, it would incredibly long.

All this said, i still wouldn't argue that magnussen had looked a little better overall.

I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Struggling to understand the votes for Gasly, Magnussen and Perez. Anyone?

I voted for Magnussen before I remembered that he was possibly responsible for Grosjean getting knocked out of Q2, so I can give my reasoning at the time. They were both terrible in the race, so I went purely on quali.

As for Gasly and Perez... I would assume similar reasoning, although it makes less sense. You could blame Max for not getting in a lap on softs and costing himself a chance at Q3, but the race cancels that out. Perez was quicker than Lance in quali (as always), but he was weaker when it counts.

Didn't you see what happened to grosjean at the start? Several drivers contacted ahead of him and their pieces flew on to his car in the first corner. He can to cut the corner while trying to remove bits by hand. He lost seveal places here I think. Then he got bumped by perez doing a a rather cheeky move in the same area later on. Then there was the bad luck in qualifying too. Grosjean is a magnet for bad luck this season. That bad luck is making magnussen look far better than he is. I don't think there is much between them at all this season. Despite some not thinking this, I think Grosjean is looking a fair bit better to the start he had last year. The crashes he's had are not his fault. If i listed his bad luck this season, it would incredibly long.

All this said, i still wouldn't argue that magnussen had looked a little better overall.

I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I voted for Magnussen before I remembered that he was possibly responsible for Grosjean getting knocked out of Q2, so I can give my reasoning at the time. They were both terrible in the race, so I went purely on quali.

As for Gasly and Perez... I would assume similar reasoning, although it makes less sense. You could blame Max for not getting in a lap on softs and costing himself a chance at Q3, but the race cancels that out. Perez was quicker than Lance in quali (as always), but he was weaker when it counts.

Didn't you see what happened to grosjean at the start? Several drivers contacted ahead of him and their pieces flew on to his car in the first corner. He can to cut the corner while trying to remove bits by hand. He lost seveal places here I think. Then he got bumped by perez doing a a rather cheeky move in the same area later on. Then there was the bad luck in qualifying too. Grosjean is a magnet for bad luck this season. That bad luck is making magnussen look far better than he is. I don't think there is much between them at all this season. Despite some not thinking this, I think Grosjean is looking a fair bit better to the start he had last year. The crashes he's had are not his fault. If i listed his bad luck this season, it would incredibly long.

All this said, i still wouldn't argue that magnussen had looked a little better overall.

I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I truly believe we've seen everything Grosjean can offer. He locked into a superb run in 2013 but otherwise it has rarely come together for him. I'd love to see Haas make a move for someone like George Russell, although it's probably all a bit too Ferrari around there than Russell's Merc bosses would like

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:49 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Didn't you see what happened to grosjean at the start? Several drivers contacted ahead of him and their pieces flew on to his car in the first corner. He can to cut the corner while trying to remove bits by hand. He lost seveal places here I think. Then he got bumped by perez doing a a rather cheeky move in the same area later on. Then there was the bad luck in qualifying too. Grosjean is a magnet for bad luck this season. That bad luck is making magnussen look far better than he is. I don't think there is much between them at all this season. Despite some not thinking this, I think Grosjean is looking a fair bit better to the start he had last year. The crashes he's had are not his fault. If i listed his bad luck this season, it would incredibly long.

All this said, i still wouldn't argue that magnussen had looked a little better overall.

I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I truly believe we've seen everything Grosjean can offer. He locked into a superb run in 2013 but otherwise it has rarely come together for him. I'd love to see Haas make a move for someone like George Russell, although it's probably all a bit too Ferrari around there than Russell's Merc bosses would like

I would be looking more at Ocon if Bottas is retained at Mercedes, as for Russell he's under contract at Williams for next season plus I think at this stage Mercedes would want to retain him?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I truly believe we've seen everything Grosjean can offer. He locked into a superb run in 2013 but otherwise it has rarely come together for him. I'd love to see Haas make a move for someone like George Russell, although it's probably all a bit too Ferrari around there than Russell's Merc bosses would like

I would be looking more at Ocon if Bottas is retained at Mercedes, as for Russell he's under contract at Williams for next season plus I think at this stage Mercedes would want to retain him?

Yep Ocon is a good shout. Hope he's back next year :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I wouldn't disagree with any of this. The problem with Grosjean is he has a documented history of being the reason for his own bad luck, so there is a tendency (and I've probably been guilty of it myself) of looking at his 'misfortune' on the surface and assuming it is his own doing.

There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I truly believe we've seen everything Grosjean can offer. He locked into a superb run in 2013 but otherwise it has rarely come together for him. I'd love to see Haas make a move for someone like George Russell, although it's probably all a bit too Ferrari around there than Russell's Merc bosses would like

I would be looking more at Ocon if Bottas is retained at Mercedes, as for Russell he's under contract at Williams for next season plus I think at this stage Mercedes would want to retain him?


Indeed. Personally I feel like Haas need to be at the front of the queue for whichever of Bottas and Ocon Mercedes don't have racing for them in 2020. One of them is going to be available; whichever one it is would represent an upgrade on their current pairing. Same would go with either McLaren driver if Alonso decided to come back (which looks unlikely).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I'm not talking about potential to improve - I don't think he has any of that. Higher ceiling, perhaps?

I think at his best Grosjean is better than Magnussen, but he hits his best less frequently.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:04 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I'm not talking about potential to improve - I don't think he has any of that. Higher ceiling, perhaps?

I think at his best Grosjean is better than Magnussen, but he hits his best less frequently.

For me I have to ask who is being inconsistent Grosjean or KMag, we tend to view it more as Grosjean hence the higher ceiling but maybe it's both?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
There is certainly some of that. As a side note, I do actually consider Grosjean to be the faster driver and the one with more potential - he just usually come nowhere close to his potential, whereas Magnussen frequently extracts his own lesser speed more fully.

Grosjean is 33 years old now, it seems odd to view him as a driver with potential.

I'm not talking about potential to improve - I don't think he has any of that. Higher ceiling, perhaps?

I think at his best Grosjean is better than Magnussen, but he hits his best less frequently.

For me I have to ask who is being inconsistent Grosjean or KMag, we tend to view it more as Grosjean hence the higher ceiling but maybe it's both?

When the Haas car is good, Grosjean is the one who still swings in and out of Q3 or the points. The only time he's ever looked consistent - bad or good - was arguably his debut season, when he was consistently terrible. Since then, he's always delivered results all across the board compared to his teammate.

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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
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