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What did you think?
Acceptable: emotions were understandably running high 53%  53%  [ 44 ]
Didn't go far enough: he should have boycotted the podium entirely 8%  8%  [ 7 ]
Unacceptable: regardless of the rights/wrongs of the penalty 27%  27%  [ 22 ]
Completely unacceptable: brings the sport into disrepute 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
Other 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 83
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:03 pm 
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I would have boycotted the podium or just left the second place trophy up there when I left.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:

let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

I hope you were on the campaign trail to DSQ Jenson Button from Monaco 2009 also. Consistency is key

Let me be clear, I completely disagree with dpastern and I think it would be ludicrous to DSQ Vettel for this, but they did state the DSQ was for Vettel's refusal to to park where he was supposed to, whereas Button accidentally parked in the wrong place due to the unique procedure at Monte Carlo, so the two events are not remotely comparable.

dpastern's position is not for the administration error, but rather the deliberate method of Vettel's protest and it is with precedent to penalise this sort of deliberate behavious given the sanctions given to Ferrari for failing to observe the correct podium procedure in 2002. So in that sense it is not ridiculous to take issue with it, even if the proposed penalty is clearly misfitting.

However, clearly it would be ridiculous to apply a racing penalty to ceremonial disconduct, meaning that if a sanction was believed to be needed for it then a financial one would be more appropriate. However, I feel that given the controversy caused by the penalty in the first place, it's better just to ignore it rather than draw more attention to it.

Hang on has this entire debacle not stemmed from Vettel getting penalised for a mistake in the first place? His on-track actions weren't deliberate and he was slapped with a penalty due to a black and white interpretation of the rules

By that same token if DSQs are on the table for parking in the wrong place post-chequered flag then if Vettel gets DSQ, then Button does too due to a black and white interpretation of the rules

Consistency is key

Vettel's actions were judged by the stewards to be deliberate.

Worth emphasising this. As the stewards are clearly incorrect in their assessment as far as I'm concerned. It's very clear from the footage that he is correcting oversteer as Button says:
Quote:
"It looks like he's turning to the right side of the circuit, but he's not," said Button. "He's just correcting oversteer - you turn in to oversteer.

"I think Seb realised that Lewis could be there now - and that's when you see he doesn't move out any further or closer to the wall. But he hasn't quite given Lewis enough room.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... p-decision

Depending on just how much that was a factor in the decision the penalty potentialy goes from being an overly harsh application of the rules to being a flat out incorrect penalty IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Problem is that it is not that clear BF11

Extract:

"But chief Mattia Binotto has written to the FIA informing them there will be no challenge.

Video evidence has emerged seemingly showing Vettel making a second steer after he had come off the grass.

It suggests the German had control of his car and almost put Hamilton into the wall in a bid to defend his lead."


Out of interest IF that video is correct would you change your view?

Edit https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1139937/Ferrari-Sebastian-Vettel-appeal-Lewis-Hamilton-Mercedes-F1-news


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:00 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Problem is that it is not that clear BF11

Extract:

"But chief Mattia Binotto has written to the FIA informing them there will be no challenge.

Video evidence has emerged seemingly showing Vettel making a second steer after he had come off the grass.

It suggests the German had control of his car and almost put Hamilton into the wall in a bid to defend his lead."


Out of interest IF that video is correct would you change your view?

Edit https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1139937/Ferrari-Sebastian-Vettel-appeal-Lewis-Hamilton-Mercedes-F1-news

We've already seen that video, it's the onboard and it's what my view is based on.

He does indeed make a steering input to the right but he was clearly correcting oversteer, its visible to anyone who has ever seen an F1 car with oversteer before and ex drivers have said the same.

Even Palmer who agrees with the penalty says that the steering input right was to correct oversteer, his issue with it is that after Vettel is in control of the car he doesn't steer left enough, he just leaves the steering wheel straight, but it's very clear from all the evidence that Vettel at no point sees Hamilton alongside and then decides to turn right, and if that is what the stewards call is based on then they quite clearly made the wrong decision IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Regarding where you park after the race...I thought the rule on parking the car after the race was dropped when the fuel regulations came out. Reason being is that if you ran out of fuel on the victory lap and you didn't make it to park ferme you would not be disqualified. I would think that where you park the car at the end of the race is more a matter of convenience for the driver than a hard and fast rule... Is there actually now a regulation on where you have to park after the race?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:28 pm 
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People moan about F1 lacking in drivers with character, then they moan about F1 having drivers with character!

What he did can seem petty and childish in a way, but was kind of understandable and damn good fun to watch. It's hardly criminal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:30 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 2 people think it brought the sport in to disrepute. OMFG! Seriously?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:35 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
dpastern wrote:
mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Firstly, Vettel refused to park his car in parc ferme - that is an automatic disqualification from the race (FIA did SFA of course, being Ferrari).

He initially refused to go to the race podium by all accounts and had to be convinced by Ferrari management to do so.

His parc ferme behaviour was terrible and absolutely deserving of a post race penalty to be served at a follow up race of FIA's choice.

He's very lucky I'm not a steward.

He did park it in parc ferme. Where do you think all the other cars outside 1st-3rd go?


let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

Note to self, ignore this guy's honest opinions in the future.


note to self, I don't give a crap what you think.

You Vettel/Ferrari fans are idiotic in your beliefs.

The truth is, Vettel acted like a spoilt kid having a temper tantrum post race. FIA doesn't have the balls to properly punish drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Problem is that it is not that clear BF11

Extract:

"But chief Mattia Binotto has written to the FIA informing them there will be no challenge.

Video evidence has emerged seemingly showing Vettel making a second steer after he had come off the grass.

It suggests the German had control of his car and almost put Hamilton into the wall in a bid to defend his lead."


Out of interest IF that video is correct would you change your view?

Edit https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1139937/Ferrari-Sebastian-Vettel-appeal-Lewis-Hamilton-Mercedes-F1-news


We've already seen that video, it's the onboard and it's what my view is based on.

He does indeed make a steering input to the right but he was clearly correcting oversteer, its visible to anyone who has ever seen an F1 car with oversteer before and ex drivers have said the same.

Even Palmer who agrees with the penalty says that the steering input right was to correct oversteer, his issue with it is that after Vettel is in control of the car he doesn't steer left enough, he just leaves the steering wheel straight, but it's very clear from all the evidence that Vettel at no point sees Hamilton alongside and then decides to turn right, and if that is what the stewards call is based on then they quite clearly made the wrong decision IMO.


I'm not sure we have, why would they talk about new evidence then?
Why have they dropped the appeal?

Where is the link to the onboard incidentally?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:48 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
Covalent wrote:
dpastern wrote:
mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Firstly, Vettel refused to park his car in parc ferme - that is an automatic disqualification from the race (FIA did SFA of course, being Ferrari).

He initially refused to go to the race podium by all accounts and had to be convinced by Ferrari management to do so.

His parc ferme behaviour was terrible and absolutely deserving of a post race penalty to be served at a follow up race of FIA's choice.

He's very lucky I'm not a steward.

He did park it in parc ferme. Where do you think all the other cars outside 1st-3rd go?


let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

Note to self, ignore this guy's honest opinions in the future.


note to self, I don't give a crap what you think.

You Vettel/Ferrari fans are idiotic in your beliefs.

The truth is, Vettel acted like a spoilt kid having a temper tantrum post race. FIA doesn't have the balls to properly punish drivers.


I wouldn't want anyone to be DSQ for acting "like a spoilt kid". Because, guess what? We aren't all perfect all the time.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:55 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
Firstly, Vettel refused to park his car in parc ferme - that is an automatic disqualification from the race (FIA did SFA of course, being Ferrari).

He initially refused to go to the race podium by all accounts and had to be convinced by Ferrari management to do so.

His parc ferme behaviour was terrible and absolutely deserving of a post race penalty to be served at a follow up race of FIA's choice.

He's very lucky I'm not a steward.


I think the sport is the lucky one that you're not a steward.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:02 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
Firstly, Vettel refused to park his car in parc ferme - that is an automatic disqualification from the race (FIA did SFA of course, being Ferrari).

He initially refused to go to the race podium by all accounts and had to be convinced by Ferrari management to do so.

His parc ferme behaviour was terrible and absolutely deserving of a post race penalty to be served at a follow up race of FIA's choice.

He's very lucky I'm not a steward.

He did park in parc ferme.
Yes, he had to be persuaded - but he did make an appearance on the podium.
What aspect was so terrible? Some it it was admittedly less then pretty: 'terrible' seems a shade extreme.
I'm sure that he is thanking his lucky stars in that final respect.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Problem is that it is not that clear BF11

Extract:

"But chief Mattia Binotto has written to the FIA informing them there will be no challenge.

Video evidence has emerged seemingly showing Vettel making a second steer after he had come off the grass.

It suggests the German had control of his car and almost put Hamilton into the wall in a bid to defend his lead."


Out of interest IF that video is correct would you change your view?

Edit https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1139937/Ferrari-Sebastian-Vettel-appeal-Lewis-Hamilton-Mercedes-F1-news


We've already seen that video, it's the onboard and it's what my view is based on.

He does indeed make a steering input to the right but he was clearly correcting oversteer, its visible to anyone who has ever seen an F1 car with oversteer before and ex drivers have said the same.

Even Palmer who agrees with the penalty says that the steering input right was to correct oversteer, his issue with it is that after Vettel is in control of the car he doesn't steer left enough, he just leaves the steering wheel straight, but it's very clear from all the evidence that Vettel at no point sees Hamilton alongside and then decides to turn right, and if that is what the stewards call is based on then they quite clearly made the wrong decision IMO.


I'm not sure we have, why would they talk about new evidence then?
Why have they dropped the appeal?

Where is the link to the onboard incidentally?

I'm 100% sure its talking about the onboard, since it would be impossible for a video showing previously unseen steering inputs when we have a video showing Vettel's steering the entire way through the incident.

https://youtu.be/gqhX-ZzPhzo


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:15 pm 
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OK, thanks for the link, does show two moves but you cant tell what the back end is doing.

I think that the video being referred to is in this paragraph.

"A further reason the stewards established was through the use of an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international feed, showing Vettel's head looking in the mirrors at where Hamilton was during these moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

I do agree it was harsh. However, if it was a deliberate drift/steer right, even if instinctive, it was a daft and potentially dangerous. BUT we get back to the fact, mentioned before elsewhere that if he hadn't dropped the ball he wouldn't have got a penalty. He opened the door.

Lets not forget this is about the 6th or 7th error since 2018, what happens going forward will be telling.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:00 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
OK, thanks for the link, does show two moves but you cant tell what the back end is doing.

I think that the video being referred to is in this paragraph.

"A further reason the stewards established was through the use of an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international feed, showing Vettel's head looking in the mirrors at where Hamilton was during these moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

I do agree it was harsh. However, if it was a deliberate drift/steer right, even if instinctive, it was a daft and potentially dangerous. BUT we get back to the fact, mentioned before elsewhere that if he hadn't dropped the ball he wouldn't have got a penalty. He opened the door.

Lets not forget this is about the 6th or 7th error since 2018, what happens going forward will be telling.

I think some people need to get into their heads that when you leave the track you can't then return to the track and carry on racing like Vettel did, he went back onto the racing line at reduced speed and then caused Hamilton to brake by making the decision of not giving Hamilton enough room, a definition of returning to the track unsafely.

As for his antics after the race I didn't care as I felt more sorry for Vettel, he's a good guy and he needed the win, a positive for him is that the controversy and drama of Vettel after the race took some of the focus away from his mistake and better the penalty than being passed by Hamilton on the track.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
OK, thanks for the link, does show two moves but you cant tell what the back end is doing.

I think that the video being referred to is in this paragraph.

"A further reason the stewards established was through the use of an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international feed, showing Vettel's head looking in the mirrors at where Hamilton was during these moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

I do agree it was harsh. However, if it was a deliberate drift/steer right, even if instinctive, it was a daft and potentially dangerous. BUT we get back to the fact, mentioned before elsewhere that if he hadn't dropped the ball he wouldn't have got a penalty. He opened the door.

Lets not forget this is about the 6th or 7th error since 2018, what happens going forward will be telling.

I think some people need to get into their heads that when you leave the track you can't then return to the track and carry on racing like Vettel did, he went back onto the racing line at reduced speed and then caused Hamilton to brake by making the decision of not giving Hamilton enough room, a definition of returning to the track unsafely.

As for his antics after the race I didn't care as I felt more sorry for Vettel, he's a good guy and he needed the win, a positive for him is that the controversy and drama of Vettel after the race took some of the focus away from his mistake and better the penalty than being passed by Hamilton on the track.

I completely disagree with this. A driver that leaves the track can come back on it safely and resume racing as soon as he wishes. If there was no driver where Hamilton was would you mind what Vettel did? Of course not. Vettel is really guilty of crowding another car, not for resuming racing upon returning on the track, no rule prevents to step on the pedal once you get on the track safely


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:39 am 
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What I don't like is that Vettel will not come clean, I have super quick reactions myself and when ever a car pulls in front of me or some other incident my reaction is to avoid an accident, Vettel on the other hand always does these antics he deliberately tries to block, he has done it so many times in his career it comes natural to him.

I voted: as per the rules, the penalty is correct and justified


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:12 am 
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kimandsally wrote:
What I don't like is that Vettel will not come clean, I have super quick reactions myself and when ever a car pulls in front of me or some other incident my reaction is to avoid an accident, Vettel on the other hand always does these antics he deliberately tries to block, he has done it so many times in his career it comes natural to him.

I voted: as per the rules, the penalty is correct and justified

A very bold statement, how many incidents can you prove that he has done this deliberately? And which driver doesn't try defending when being overtaken in racing? This time he botched it and crowded Hamilton, especially given the circumstances, but to say that he always blocks deliberately all the time is a bit of a stretch.

And no, your own driving in the motorway is not the same as competitive racing, nor reflexes, nor mindset, you should not confuse them.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:48 am 
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dpastern wrote:
Covalent wrote:
dpastern wrote:
mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Firstly, Vettel refused to park his car in parc ferme - that is an automatic disqualification from the race (FIA did SFA of course, being Ferrari).

He initially refused to go to the race podium by all accounts and had to be convinced by Ferrari management to do so.

His parc ferme behaviour was terrible and absolutely deserving of a post race penalty to be served at a follow up race of FIA's choice.

He's very lucky I'm not a steward.

He did park it in parc ferme. Where do you think all the other cars outside 1st-3rd go?


let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

Note to self, ignore this guy's honest opinions in the future.


note to self, I don't give a crap what you think.

You Vettel/Ferrari fans are idiotic in your beliefs.

The truth is, Vettel acted like a spoilt kid having a temper tantrum post race. FIA doesn't have the balls to properly punish drivers.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:03 am 
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Covalent wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Covalent wrote:
dpastern wrote:
mcdo wrote:
He did park it in parc ferme. Where do you think all the other cars outside 1st-3rd go?


let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

Note to self, ignore this guy's honest opinions in the future.


note to self, I don't give a crap what you think.

You Vettel/Ferrari fans are idiotic in your beliefs.

The truth is, Vettel acted like a spoilt kid having a temper tantrum post race. FIA doesn't have the balls to properly punish drivers.

:lol:

Talk about tantrums!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:12 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Talk about tantrums!


Yup, that's what this thread is about. Talking about tantrums. :)

You can have one; whether you are a 4 x WDC or just a guy on a forum, and the beauty is we can all decide what that tantrum says about you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Talk about tantrums!


Yup, that's what this thread is about. Talking about tantrums. :)

You can have one; whether you are a 4 x WDC or just a guy on a forum, and the beauty is we can all decide what that tantrum says about you.


Nah, I'm insignificant compared to the drivers!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:53 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
OK, thanks for the link, does show two moves but you cant tell what the back end is doing.

I think that the video being referred to is in this paragraph.

"A further reason the stewards established was through the use of an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international feed, showing Vettel's head looking in the mirrors at where Hamilton was during these moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

I do agree it was harsh. However, if it was a deliberate drift/steer right, even if instinctive, it was a daft and potentially dangerous. BUT we get back to the fact, mentioned before elsewhere that if he hadn't dropped the ball he wouldn't have got a penalty. He opened the door.

Lets not forget this is about the 6th or 7th error since 2018, what happens going forward will be telling.

I think some people need to get into their heads that when you leave the track you can't then return to the track and carry on racing like Vettel did, he went back onto the racing line at reduced speed and then caused Hamilton to brake by making the decision of not giving Hamilton enough room, a definition of returning to the track unsafely.

As for his antics after the race I didn't care as I felt more sorry for Vettel, he's a good guy and he needed the win, a positive for him is that the controversy and drama of Vettel after the race took some of the focus away from his mistake and better the penalty than being passed by Hamilton on the track.

I completely disagree with this. A driver that leaves the track can come back on it safely and resume racing as soon as he wishes. If there was no driver where Hamilton was would you mind what Vettel did? Of course not. Vettel is really guilty of crowding another car, not for resuming racing upon returning on the track, no rule prevents to step on the pedal once you get on the track safely

You can disagree but that's not the rules say, when he came back onto the track Hamilton was already partially alongside him and that meant that Vettel no longer had the right to race as normal, he had to give Hamilton room and not force him to brake.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
OK, thanks for the link, does show two moves but you cant tell what the back end is doing.

I think that the video being referred to is in this paragraph.

"A further reason the stewards established was through the use of an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international feed, showing Vettel's head looking in the mirrors at where Hamilton was during these moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

I do agree it was harsh. However, if it was a deliberate drift/steer right, even if instinctive, it was a daft and potentially dangerous. BUT we get back to the fact, mentioned before elsewhere that if he hadn't dropped the ball he wouldn't have got a penalty. He opened the door.

Lets not forget this is about the 6th or 7th error since 2018, what happens going forward will be telling.

I think some people need to get into their heads that when you leave the track you can't then return to the track and carry on racing like Vettel did, he went back onto the racing line at reduced speed and then caused Hamilton to brake by making the decision of not giving Hamilton enough room, a definition of returning to the track unsafely.

As for his antics after the race I didn't care as I felt more sorry for Vettel, he's a good guy and he needed the win, a positive for him is that the controversy and drama of Vettel after the race took some of the focus away from his mistake and better the penalty than being passed by Hamilton on the track.

I completely disagree with this. A driver that leaves the track can come back on it safely and resume racing as soon as he wishes. If there was no driver where Hamilton was would you mind what Vettel did? Of course not. Vettel is really guilty of crowding another car, not for resuming racing upon returning on the track, no rule prevents to step on the pedal once you get on the track safely

You can disagree but that's not the rules say, when he came back onto the track Hamilton was already partially alongside him and that meant that Vettel no longer had the right to race as normal, he had to give Hamilton room and not force him to brake.

No, Hamilton was not alongside Vettel; the moment that Vettel's car came on track (all 4 wheels on track) Hamilton was still behind him. By the time Vettel got full control of his car Hamilton was fully alongside him. Not that it matters, as this happened in a blink of an eye


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
OK, thanks for the link, does show two moves but you cant tell what the back end is doing.

I think that the video being referred to is in this paragraph.

"A further reason the stewards established was through the use of an extra CCTV camera view of the incident, which was not broadcast on the international feed, showing Vettel's head looking in the mirrors at where Hamilton was during these moments when he was releasing the wheel to the right."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

I do agree it was harsh. However, if it was a deliberate drift/steer right, even if instinctive, it was a daft and potentially dangerous. BUT we get back to the fact, mentioned before elsewhere that if he hadn't dropped the ball he wouldn't have got a penalty. He opened the door.

Lets not forget this is about the 6th or 7th error since 2018, what happens going forward will be telling.

I think some people need to get into their heads that when you leave the track you can't then return to the track and carry on racing like Vettel did, he went back onto the racing line at reduced speed and then caused Hamilton to brake by making the decision of not giving Hamilton enough room, a definition of returning to the track unsafely.

As for his antics after the race I didn't care as I felt more sorry for Vettel, he's a good guy and he needed the win, a positive for him is that the controversy and drama of Vettel after the race took some of the focus away from his mistake and better the penalty than being passed by Hamilton on the track.

I completely disagree with this. A driver that leaves the track can come back on it safely and resume racing as soon as he wishes. If there was no driver where Hamilton was would you mind what Vettel did? Of course not. Vettel is really guilty of crowding another car, not for resuming racing upon returning on the track, no rule prevents to step on the pedal once you get on the track safely

You can disagree but that's not the rules say, when he came back onto the track Hamilton was already partially alongside him and that meant that Vettel no longer had the right to race as normal, he had to give Hamilton room and not force him to brake.

No, Hamilton was not alongside Vettel; the moment that Vettel's car came on track (all 4 wheels on track) Hamilton was still behind him. By the time Vettel got full control of his car Hamilton was fully alongside him. Not that it matters, as this happened in a blink of an eye

I don't believe that's how it's perceived, It's the position of the cars when Vettel returns to the racing line, he can't just drive back onto the racing line if a car is already there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think some people need to get into their heads that when you leave the track you can't then return to the track and carry on racing like Vettel did, he went back onto the racing line at reduced speed and then caused Hamilton to brake by making the decision of not giving Hamilton enough room, a definition of returning to the track unsafely.

As for his antics after the race I didn't care as I felt more sorry for Vettel, he's a good guy and he needed the win, a positive for him is that the controversy and drama of Vettel after the race took some of the focus away from his mistake and better the penalty than being passed by Hamilton on the track.

I completely disagree with this. A driver that leaves the track can come back on it safely and resume racing as soon as he wishes. If there was no driver where Hamilton was would you mind what Vettel did? Of course not. Vettel is really guilty of crowding another car, not for resuming racing upon returning on the track, no rule prevents to step on the pedal once you get on the track safely

You can disagree but that's not the rules say, when he came back onto the track Hamilton was already partially alongside him and that meant that Vettel no longer had the right to race as normal, he had to give Hamilton room and not force him to brake.

No, Hamilton was not alongside Vettel; the moment that Vettel's car came on track (all 4 wheels on track) Hamilton was still behind him. By the time Vettel got full control of his car Hamilton was fully alongside him. Not that it matters, as this happened in a blink of an eye

I don't believe that's how it's perceived, It's the position of the cars when Vettel returns to the racing line, he can't just drive back onto the racing line if a car is already there.

You said when he came back on track, not the racing line, two different things. When back on track you can start racing as soon as you want, I do not think there is a rule that prevents it. (on track is not exclusively on the racing line)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:25 pm 
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I think that this particular thread is about Vettels POST race behavior, there is an entire thread about the penalty itself. I am not a Vettel fan, but I don't think anything he did crossed the line to be unacceptable. He is a very emotional guy and he wears his heart on his sleeve, and you can see that in everything he does. I think you have to allow the human element to come thru in any sport. These are not robots that you can just deactivate, these are humans. Look at the emotion shown in this forum alone and then amplify that to the level of passion that a race car driver might have after pushing his car to the absolute limit for 2 hours!!!

Man, I got more heated than that on my commute to the office this morning....


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I completely disagree with this. A driver that leaves the track can come back on it safely and resume racing as soon as he wishes. If there was no driver where Hamilton was would you mind what Vettel did? Of course not. Vettel is really guilty of crowding another car, not for resuming racing upon returning on the track, no rule prevents to step on the pedal once you get on the track safely

You can disagree but that's not the rules say, when he came back onto the track Hamilton was already partially alongside him and that meant that Vettel no longer had the right to race as normal, he had to give Hamilton room and not force him to brake.

No, Hamilton was not alongside Vettel; the moment that Vettel's car came on track (all 4 wheels on track) Hamilton was still behind him. By the time Vettel got full control of his car Hamilton was fully alongside him. Not that it matters, as this happened in a blink of an eye

I don't believe that's how it's perceived, It's the position of the cars when Vettel returns to the racing line, he can't just drive back onto the racing line if a car is already there.

You said when he came back on track, not the racing line, two different things. When back on track you can start racing as soon as you want, I do not think there is a rule that prevents it. (on track is not exclusively on the racing line)

No that's not accurate. Vettel must return to the track safely without making another driver take avoiding action. Barreling onto the racing line and forcing another driver to hit the brakes clearly does not meet that requirement. Perhaps this is best discussed in the penalty thread but your interpretation is not accurate.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:04 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You can disagree but that's not the rules say, when he came back onto the track Hamilton was already partially alongside him and that meant that Vettel no longer had the right to race as normal, he had to give Hamilton room and not force him to brake.

No, Hamilton was not alongside Vettel; the moment that Vettel's car came on track (all 4 wheels on track) Hamilton was still behind him. By the time Vettel got full control of his car Hamilton was fully alongside him. Not that it matters, as this happened in a blink of an eye

I don't believe that's how it's perceived, It's the position of the cars when Vettel returns to the racing line, he can't just drive back onto the racing line if a car is already there.

You said when he came back on track, not the racing line, two different things. When back on track you can start racing as soon as you want, I do not think there is a rule that prevents it. (on track is not exclusively on the racing line)

No that's not accurate. Vettel must return to the track safely without making another driver take avoiding action. Barreling onto the racing line and forcing another driver to hit the brakes clearly does not meet that requirement. Perhaps this is best discussed in the penalty thread but your interpretation is not accurate.

Agreed, wrong thread


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:29 pm 
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It was pretty childish and not what you'd expect from a grown man (the sign swapping looks like it was taken straight out of primary school) but I wouldn't hold it against him. I never have an issue with a sportsman showing a bit of passion even if it does border on infantile.

I've often defended Lewis or Max when people claim they are petulant so I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't give Sebastian the same luxury


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Probably a good thing he avoided the Parc Ferme interview. He probably wouldn't have had anything useful to contribute before he settled down a bit.

Sign swapping was funny but probably somewhat over the line.

I was pleased that he showed up for the podium ceremony, participated in it, and even defended Lewis when some of the crowd was turning on him.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Clear that Vettel's drive was equal to Hamilton vs Ricciardo in 2016 - except Hamilton failed to make chicane (and should have been penalised) - and Hamilton could clearly have given room and decided not to - versus vettel who had little choice - I'm no vettel fan as my posts over time would show - but Hamilton SHOULD have been penaised (twice) - Vettel - dubious

Hamilton should be feeling awkward - he is clearly hypocritical -


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:26 pm 
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Vettel Fan wrote:
I would have boycotted the podium or just left the second place trophy up there when I left.

Seb would have incurred a large penalty for boycotting the podium. I believe it could even have included a race ban.

Leaving the trophy on the podium would have been legal and possibly appropriate.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Wrong thread - sorry


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:54 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Clear that Vettel's drive was equal to Hamilton vs Ricciardo in 2016 - except Hamilton failed to make chicane (and should have been penalised) - and Hamilton could clearly have given room and decided not to - versus vettel who had little choice - I'm no vettel fan as my posts over time would show - but Hamilton SHOULD have been penaised (twice) - Vettel - dubious

Hamilton should be feeling awkward - he is clearly hypocritical -


Why should Hamilton feel awkward. He has no control over the decisions. He didn't cut the corner in Canada.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:16 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:
let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

I hope you were on the campaign trail to DSQ Jenson Button from Monaco 2009 also. Consistency is key

Let me be clear, I completely disagree with dpastern and I think it would be ludicrous to DSQ Vettel for this, but they did state the DSQ was for Vettel's refusal to to park where he was supposed to, whereas Button accidentally parked in the wrong place due to the unique procedure at Monte Carlo, so the two events are not remotely comparable.

dpastern's position is not for the administration error, but rather the deliberate method of Vettel's protest and it is with precedent to penalise this sort of deliberate behavious given the sanctions given to Ferrari for failing to observe the correct podium procedure in 2002. So in that sense it is not ridiculous to take issue with it, even if the proposed penalty is clearly misfitting.

However, clearly it would be ridiculous to apply a racing penalty to ceremonial disconduct, meaning that if a sanction was believed to be needed for it then a financial one would be more appropriate. However, I feel that given the controversy caused by the penalty in the first place, it's better just to ignore it rather than draw more attention to it.

Hang on has this entire debacle not stemmed from Vettel getting penalised for a mistake in the first place? His on-track actions weren't deliberate and he was slapped with a penalty due to a black and white interpretation of the rules

By that same token if DSQs are on the table for parking in the wrong place post-chequered flag then if Vettel gets DSQ, then Button does too due to a black and white interpretation of the rules

Consistency is key

Vettel's actions were judged by the stewards to be deliberate.

If that's the case then I can safely say I 100% disagree with their ruling. I understood that they were snookered by the rules and precedent incidents, I didn't realise they thought he did it on purpose. There's no longer any doubt in my mind, they got this one absolutely incorrect

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:11 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
Covalent wrote:
dpastern wrote:
mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Firstly, Vettel refused to park his car in parc ferme - that is an automatic disqualification from the race (FIA did SFA of course, being Ferrari).

He initially refused to go to the race podium by all accounts and had to be convinced by Ferrari management to do so.

His parc ferme behaviour was terrible and absolutely deserving of a post race penalty to be served at a follow up race of FIA's choice.

He's very lucky I'm not a steward.

He did park it in parc ferme. Where do you think all the other cars outside 1st-3rd go?


let me clarify - positions 1 to 3 park their cars in the podium parc ferme area, not the pit lane area. Vettel should be DSQ alone just for that imho.

Note to self, ignore this guy's honest opinions in the future.


note to self, I don't give a crap what you think.

You Vettel/Ferrari fans are idiotic in your beliefs.

The truth is, Vettel acted like a spoilt kid having a temper tantrum post race. FIA doesn't have the balls to properly punish drivers.

I am sick and tired of hearing so many people like yourself whom sit on a high and mighty throne saying nonsensical things.

The first bit in Bold…
People aren't idiotic because they are fans of Vettel and/or Ferrari. They may have a certain amount of bias at times and in certain situations that will lead them to feel a certain ay about things, but very few hardcore fans are in fact idiotic. So bad on you for making such a strong generalized statement/accusation due to your obvious disdain for Vettel, Ferrari and their fans.

The second Bold/Underlined part…
Vettel DID NOT behave like a spoiled brat throwing a temper tantrum. He was a human being who was partaking in a HIGHLY ADRENALINE INDUCING ACTIVITY in which he happens to be one of the top competitors and one of the greatest ever, and the situation was such that his VERY Human Emotions were fueled by a ruling he felt was highly unfair. And while you would love for everyone to believe you'd never do such a thing, I'll call you on that and raise you a load of horse manure.

If you've ever been pulled over and given a ticket for anything you felt was incorrect, if you've ever received a bill with overages where the company refused to understand they're wrong, if you've ever felt you've been wronged and nothing you did could change it, you've been peeved and I can guarantee you've cussed up a storm and thrown a few M-Effers out there among other words, but since you are not a famous figure, it won't be on display for millions of internet warriors like yourself to criticize you for being a sourpuss.

You should really quit acting so high and mighty because I'm sure you're not the poster child of exemplary behavior and comportment and realize that Vettel behaved according to how he felt and the state of mind he was in when he reacted and he dod NOTHING that could be construed as childish in ANY capacity. He behaved like a normal human being expressing his emotions AND NEVER DISRESPECTED ANYONE.

I thought the penalty was deserved because without the pinch Lewis would have gotten past and pulled away, and his move forced Lewis to brake so hard it allowed Vettel to pull a gap to allow his tires to clear off and keep Lewis at enough of a distance to allow him to cross the line ahead. But putting oneself in Vettel's position his side of it is totally understandable because it was that close, and his move didn't appear to be malicious in any capacity.

As a Lewis Fan, I hope this does not break Vettel's confidence and resolve and I hope he punches back as hard as he can to try and take pole positions and victories because both he and Vettel are once in a lifetime talents and we have them at the same time! Much better to watch them duel it out than to watch either one sail off into the sunset to win championships. And for that matter, Bottas, Leclerc and Verstappen need to step up their game to make it a 5 horse race as often as possible.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:42 pm 
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And now we have a third claiming he brought the sport in to disrepute! :lol: :lol: :lol:

My god, these people must have had minimal viewing of other sports over the years if they think this is so bad!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:36 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
And now we have a third claiming he brought the sport in to disrepute! :lol: :lol: :lol:

My god, these people must have had minimal viewing of other sports over the years if they think this is so bad!


Maybe they hurt the head when they fell off the "high horse".
;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:20 am 
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F1Oz wrote:
Clear that Vettel's drive was equal to Hamilton vs Ricciardo in 2016 - except Hamilton failed to make chicane (and should have been penalised) - and Hamilton could clearly have given room and decided not to - versus vettel who had little choice - I'm no vettel fan as my posts over time would show - but Hamilton SHOULD have been penaised (twice) - Vettel - dubious

Hamilton should be feeling awkward - he is clearly hypocritical -

You should be posting this in the relevant thread as requested.

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