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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:03 pm 
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j man wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
It should be noted that Vettel was not even warned about Sainz last year and still got a penalty. Hamilton was warned multiple times about Raikkonen.

Hence why Hamilton slowed right down and moved out of the way. However he then reached the next corner before Raikkonen passed him and ended up stuck on the inside with nowhere to go. I don't really see what Hamilton did wrong, it was just unfortunate timing of when Raikkonen caught up to him.


Then he shouldn't have slowed so early, made it round T3 and then slowed to let him pass after that before T4

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:04 pm 
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By the way, it's a 3 place penalty for Lewis.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:04 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:


Well that is fair in terms of consistency. Now you will have Mad Max and Crazy Charles at it for P1...fun stuff.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:13 pm 
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Wow. And a wee mclaren in 4th. Tomorrow will be a great race!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:13 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:

Thank god for that, now all we need for tomorrow is for Leclerc to win the race and Verstappen to finish second then all's well with the world, well at least for the next 2 weeks? :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:14 pm 
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I wouldn't have given a penalty but it will be awesome to see the first Verstappen/Leclerc front row.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Got a horrible feeling those 2 will tangle at turn 3 and Mercedes will waltz through to the front again. Would enjoy a Leclerc win though, the racing gods owe him one.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:19 pm 
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.

Well, I suppose (sarcasm) that all those who thought that Vettel shouldn't have got his 5 second penalty will now say that Hamilton shouldn't have been penalised ?

Or will they be "flexible" in their views ?

.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Should be a great race tomorrow! Leclerc definitely has speed. There is no doubting that. Ferrari are also quite strong in these power circuits. Let's see if they can execute an entire race weekend cleanly.

As for the penalty to Hamilton; he did impede Kimi's lap although he was also very much trying to get out of the way. I think they had to give him the penalty there if for nothing else than to prevent all of the kicking and screaming from fans if they had not.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think they had to give him the penalty there if for nothing else than to prevent all of the kicking and screaming from fans if they had not.


Could there be a worse reason to give a penalty? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:43 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:



Looks like merc is down 6kph everywhere to Ferrari. Gosh it really is no contest in the straight line speed department.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:44 pm 
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The penalty sets the race up perfectly, so long as Hamilton can get by K-mag, given that cars race pace he should be able to do it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:15 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
j man wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
It should be noted that Vettel was not even warned about Sainz last year and still got a penalty. Hamilton was warned multiple times about Raikkonen.

Hence why Hamilton slowed right down and moved out of the way. However he then reached the next corner before Raikkonen passed him and ended up stuck on the inside with nowhere to go. I don't really see what Hamilton did wrong, it was just unfortunate timing of when Raikkonen caught up to him.

Then he should have slowed down more when he was on the straight.

I mean, he was 100% in control of his car. It’s not that difficult.

Yes in hindsight he probably should, it wasn't completely unavoidable. My point was that it wasn't entirely negligent driving either, and I would have given him the benefit of the doubt. It was quite different to the Vettel/Sainz incident from last year if you look a the 10-15 seconds preceding the actual block.

A penalty has been applied anyway. A little harsh in my opinion, I've seen other drivers get away with more.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think they had to give him the penalty there if for nothing else than to prevent all of the kicking and screaming from fans if they had not.


Could there be a worse reason to give a penalty? :lol:

Sadly I fear that did factor into the decision.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:52 pm 
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A slam dunk penalty. It's a bit of a relief actually because had a penalty not been given, the incessant 'maFIA' crowd and various tin hatters would have been deafening.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:12 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
A slam dunk penalty. It's a bit of a relief actually because had a penalty not been given, the incessant 'maFIA' crowd and various tin hatters would have been deafening.

Slam dunk perhaps because of what happened to Vettel last year but at the time most people thought he wouldn't get penalised because Sainz managed to get through to the next stage, I myself said it was harsh.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15085&start=120

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:14 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
A slam dunk penalty. It's a bit of a relief actually because had a penalty not been given, the incessant 'maFIA' crowd and various tin hatters would have been deafening.

:thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:50 pm 
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Fia now saying hamilton starts 4th???


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Steve_muzzy wrote:
Wow. And a wee mclaren in 4th. Tomorrow will be a great race!


Steve do you belong to the McLaren clan?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:14 pm 
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Steve_muzzy wrote:
Fia now saying hamilton starts 4th???

After other penalties are taken into account, it appears.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
A slam dunk penalty. It's a bit of a relief actually because had a penalty not been given, the incessant 'maFIA' crowd and various tin hatters would have been deafening.

Slam dunk perhaps because of what happened to Vettel last year but at the time most people thought he wouldn't get penalised because Sainz managed to get through to the next stage, I myself said it was harsh.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15085&start=120


At the time it was. Since then they have started penalising even if the driver disadvantaged gets through. The precedent has changed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:25 am 
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Hope for the sake of the race that Hamilton can pass bottas into the first corner because otherwise leclerc will just drive off. Bottas will just serve to hold Hamilton up, can't see him challenging himself


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:46 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Hope for the sake of the race that Hamilton can pass bottas into the first corner because otherwise leclerc will just drive off. Bottas will just serve to hold Hamilton up, can't see him challenging himself


Yeah...I hope Max can get in front of Leclerc as well and hold him up. If Leclerc has clean air in the first few laps I think he will disappear in the sunset. I don't foresee the Redbull being able to keep up. The only car that has a chance to challenge for the race win is the #44 Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:56 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
If Leclerc has clean air in the first few laps I think he will disappear in the sunset. I don't foresee the Redbull being able to keep up. The only car that has a chance to challenge for the race win is the #44 Mercedes.

This aged well! :]

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
A slam dunk penalty. It's a bit of a relief actually because had a penalty not been given, the incessant 'maFIA' crowd and various tin hatters would have been deafening.

Slam dunk perhaps because of what happened to Vettel last year but at the time most people thought he wouldn't get penalised because Sainz managed to get through to the next stage, I myself said it was harsh.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15085&start=120


At the time it was. Since then they have started penalising even if the driver disadvantaged gets through. The precedent has changed.

Looks like it but I will stay consistent in that consideration should be given to whether the blocked driver has actually been disadvantaged relative to his qualifying position.

We actually saw an incident were a driver was advantaged by his own mistake to the disadvantage of other drivers. After his first run in Q2 KMag was in 10th place, on his second run I heard he was down 0.5s in sector one compared to his best time, then he locked up and went off the track and then came back onto the track ruining the laps of both the Hulk and Ricciardo who both were on better laps and may well have qualified into Q3, thus KMag's mistake helped to protect his position into Q3.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
We actually saw an incident were a driver was advantaged by his own mistake to the disadvantage of other drivers. After his first run in Q2 KMag was in 10th place, on his second run I heard he was down 0.5s in sector one compared to his best time, then he locked up and went off the track and then came back onto the track ruining the laps of both the Hulk and Ricciardo who both were on better laps and may well have qualified into Q3, thus KMag's mistake helped to protect his position into Q3.

In IndyCar they'd have deleted his lap. If you bring out a yellow and block anyone else's quali lap, you lose your fastest time. A simple and effective way to stop such a situation from happening.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We actually saw an incident were a driver was advantaged by his own mistake to the disadvantage of other drivers. After his first run in Q2 KMag was in 10th place, on his second run I heard he was down 0.5s in sector one compared to his best time, then he locked up and went off the track and then came back onto the track ruining the laps of both the Hulk and Ricciardo who both were on better laps and may well have qualified into Q3, thus KMag's mistake helped to protect his position into Q3.

In IndyCar they'd have deleted his lap. If you bring out a yellow and block anyone else's quali lap, you lose your fastest time. A simple and effective way to stop such a situation from happening.

Yeah I know it's been brought up before, it's strange how it's never considered, KMag actually impeded 3 cars one of these Norris went through anyway to Q3 the other two were on faster laps and had to abort and failed to go through to Q3.

Hamilton blocked Kimi in Q1 and despite Kimi going all the way through to Q3 Hamilton got penalised, there was nothing to gain and no intent from Hamilton, we can't prove intent for KMag even though apparently he'd already made a mistake on his lap but there was plenty to gain.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We actually saw an incident were a driver was advantaged by his own mistake to the disadvantage of other drivers. After his first run in Q2 KMag was in 10th place, on his second run I heard he was down 0.5s in sector one compared to his best time, then he locked up and went off the track and then came back onto the track ruining the laps of both the Hulk and Ricciardo who both were on better laps and may well have qualified into Q3, thus KMag's mistake helped to protect his position into Q3.

In IndyCar they'd have deleted his lap. If you bring out a yellow and block anyone else's quali lap, you lose your fastest time. A simple and effective way to stop such a situation from happening.

Yeah I know it's been brought up before, it's strange how it's never considered, KMag actually impeded 3 cars one of these Norris went through anyway to Q3 the other two were on faster laps and had to abort and failed to go through to Q3.

Hamilton blocked Kimi in Q1 and despite Kimi going all the way through to Q3 Hamilton got penalised, there was nothing to gain and no intent from Hamilton, we can't prove intent for KMag even though apparently he'd already made a mistake on his lap but there was plenty to gain.

Yeah, it is a gap in the rules. IMO, if you make a mistake and rejoin in a way that impedes the qualifying laps of others it should be treated the same as rejoining the track in an unsafe manner - which is to say it should be penalty worthy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
If Leclerc has clean air in the first few laps I think he will disappear in the sunset. I don't foresee the Redbull being able to keep up. The only car that has a chance to challenge for the race win is the #44 Mercedes.

This aged well! :]


Jeez, I should really stop with my predictions, they are god awful. I did get the Leclerc pole right though :]


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We actually saw an incident were a driver was advantaged by his own mistake to the disadvantage of other drivers. After his first run in Q2 KMag was in 10th place, on his second run I heard he was down 0.5s in sector one compared to his best time, then he locked up and went off the track and then came back onto the track ruining the laps of both the Hulk and Ricciardo who both were on better laps and may well have qualified into Q3, thus KMag's mistake helped to protect his position into Q3.

In IndyCar they'd have deleted his lap. If you bring out a yellow and block anyone else's quali lap, you lose your fastest time. A simple and effective way to stop such a situation from happening.

Yeah I know it's been brought up before, it's strange how it's never considered, KMag actually impeded 3 cars one of these Norris went through anyway to Q3 the other two were on faster laps and had to abort and failed to go through to Q3.

Hamilton blocked Kimi in Q1 and despite Kimi going all the way through to Q3 Hamilton got penalised, there was nothing to gain and no intent from Hamilton, we can't prove intent for KMag even though apparently he'd already made a mistake on his lap but there was plenty to gain.

Yeah, it is a gap in the rules. IMO, if you make a mistake and rejoin in a way that impedes the qualifying laps of others it should be treated the same as rejoining the track in an unsafe manner - which is to say it should be penalty worthy.

It should be seen as penalty worthy but I would throw in the other term often used in the race as gaining a lasting advantage, KMag gained a lasting advantage, Hamilton didn't, KMag didn't get penalised but Hamilton did, very inconsistent.

It's certainly open to abuse as well and it's hard to prove intent, only Schumacher in Monaco 2006 ever got penalised for it because they saw it as intent, I think intent shouldn't come into it especially because it's so difficult to prove.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We actually saw an incident were a driver was advantaged by his own mistake to the disadvantage of other drivers. After his first run in Q2 KMag was in 10th place, on his second run I heard he was down 0.5s in sector one compared to his best time, then he locked up and went off the track and then came back onto the track ruining the laps of both the Hulk and Ricciardo who both were on better laps and may well have qualified into Q3, thus KMag's mistake helped to protect his position into Q3.

In IndyCar they'd have deleted his lap. If you bring out a yellow and block anyone else's quali lap, you lose your fastest time. A simple and effective way to stop such a situation from happening.

Yeah I know it's been brought up before, it's strange how it's never considered, KMag actually impeded 3 cars one of these Norris went through anyway to Q3 the other two were on faster laps and had to abort and failed to go through to Q3.

Hamilton blocked Kimi in Q1 and despite Kimi going all the way through to Q3 Hamilton got penalised, there was nothing to gain and no intent from Hamilton, we can't prove intent for KMag even though apparently he'd already made a mistake on his lap but there was plenty to gain.

Yeah, it is a gap in the rules. IMO, if you make a mistake and rejoin in a way that impedes the qualifying laps of others it should be treated the same as rejoining the track in an unsafe manner - which is to say it should be penalty worthy.

It should be seen as penalty worthy but I would throw in the other term often used in the race as gaining a lasting advantage, KMag gained a lasting advantage, Hamilton didn't, KMag didn't get penalised but Hamilton did, very inconsistent.

It's certainly open to abuse as well and it's hard to prove intent, only Schumacher in Monaco 2006 ever got penalised for it because they saw it as intent, I think intent shouldn't come into it especially because it's so difficult to prove.

I can't see this working. Magnussen didn't physically impede anyone on-circuit, just caused yellow flags. Those drivers behind him when he rejoined had already had their lap compromised by the yellows. Yes, it's feasible that a driver could take advantage by causing a yellow, but it would need to be proven to be deliberate (remember the debate over Rosberg at Monaco, anyone..?). Otherwise we'd have a scenario where every driver compromised by a yellow (or red) flag would cry foul in the hope of bumping himself up the grid by having another penalised.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:44 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
In IndyCar they'd have deleted his lap. If you bring out a yellow and block anyone else's quali lap, you lose your fastest time. A simple and effective way to stop such a situation from happening.

Yeah I know it's been brought up before, it's strange how it's never considered, KMag actually impeded 3 cars one of these Norris went through anyway to Q3 the other two were on faster laps and had to abort and failed to go through to Q3.

Hamilton blocked Kimi in Q1 and despite Kimi going all the way through to Q3 Hamilton got penalised, there was nothing to gain and no intent from Hamilton, we can't prove intent for KMag even though apparently he'd already made a mistake on his lap but there was plenty to gain.

Yeah, it is a gap in the rules. IMO, if you make a mistake and rejoin in a way that impedes the qualifying laps of others it should be treated the same as rejoining the track in an unsafe manner - which is to say it should be penalty worthy.

It should be seen as penalty worthy but I would throw in the other term often used in the race as gaining a lasting advantage, KMag gained a lasting advantage, Hamilton didn't, KMag didn't get penalised but Hamilton did, very inconsistent.

It's certainly open to abuse as well and it's hard to prove intent, only Schumacher in Monaco 2006 ever got penalised for it because they saw it as intent, I think intent shouldn't come into it especially because it's so difficult to prove.

I can't see this working. Magnussen didn't physically impede anyone on-circuit, just caused yellow flags. Those drivers behind him when he rejoined had already had their lap compromised by the yellows. Yes, it's feasible that a driver could take advantage by causing a yellow, but it would need to be proven to be deliberate (remember the debate over Rosberg at Monaco, anyone..?). Otherwise we'd have a scenario where every driver compromised by a yellow (or red) flag would cry foul in the hope of bumping himself up the grid by having another penalised.

KMag did physically impede the cars behind him when he came back onto the track, in this instance it seems any kind of intent has to be proven, with Hamilton it's a slam dunk impeding and intent doesn't need to be proven, to me it seems a strange anomaly.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I know it's been brought up before, it's strange how it's never considered, KMag actually impeded 3 cars one of these Norris went through anyway to Q3 the other two were on faster laps and had to abort and failed to go through to Q3.

Hamilton blocked Kimi in Q1 and despite Kimi going all the way through to Q3 Hamilton got penalised, there was nothing to gain and no intent from Hamilton, we can't prove intent for KMag even though apparently he'd already made a mistake on his lap but there was plenty to gain.

Yeah, it is a gap in the rules. IMO, if you make a mistake and rejoin in a way that impedes the qualifying laps of others it should be treated the same as rejoining the track in an unsafe manner - which is to say it should be penalty worthy.

It should be seen as penalty worthy but I would throw in the other term often used in the race as gaining a lasting advantage, KMag gained a lasting advantage, Hamilton didn't, KMag didn't get penalised but Hamilton did, very inconsistent.

It's certainly open to abuse as well and it's hard to prove intent, only Schumacher in Monaco 2006 ever got penalised for it because they saw it as intent, I think intent shouldn't come into it especially because it's so difficult to prove.

I can't see this working. Magnussen didn't physically impede anyone on-circuit, just caused yellow flags. Those drivers behind him when he rejoined had already had their lap compromised by the yellows. Yes, it's feasible that a driver could take advantage by causing a yellow, but it would need to be proven to be deliberate (remember the debate over Rosberg at Monaco, anyone..?). Otherwise we'd have a scenario where every driver compromised by a yellow (or red) flag would cry foul in the hope of bumping himself up the grid by having another penalised.

KMag did physically impede the cars behind him when he came back onto the track, in this instance it seems any kind of intent has to be proven, with Hamilton it's a slam dunk impeding and intent doesn't need to be proven, to me it seems a strange anomaly.

I'm not doubting he did. My assertion is that the yellow flags were already out so their laps were already compromised. In other words, Magnussen impeding them when rejoining was academic.

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