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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:24 am 
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Lewis, on behalf of all the drivers is willing to work with the FIA to improve F1. He already met with the FIA in Paris last week & these are probably the 5 points he has put across:

1. Consult drivers for the rule changes to be set in 2021.
2. Don't let teams interfere in the rule making process.
3. Make the rule book adaptable.
4. Scrap the plans for making the cars heavier & slower.
5. Work with Pirelli to make tyres which would allow drivers to push on every lap & not just coast.

https://www.givemesport.com/1485487-lewis-hamilton-devises-fivepoint-plan-to-help-in-a-mess-formula-1?autoplay=on

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:42 am 
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That's a nice plan and it's what everyone knows that it should be done. Everyone but the FIA it seems.

But shouldn't this be the Nr1 plan that the GPDA should be working on? The only recent thing I remember from them was a letter saying that FIA is broken and the sport is doomed, something on that note.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:08 pm 
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It's not a bad plan, as far as it goes. But it's so vague that it doesn't really commit to anything - as expected from a politically savvy driver! 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:14 pm 
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It's 5 ideas without actually specifying anything. Rather like politician speak.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Guys he didn't actually put forward a 5 point plan. That's just a headline describing 5 things he happened to mentioned when interviewed about this. The media is such a joke nowadays.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:53 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Guys he didn't actually put forward a 5 point plan. That's just a headline describing 5 things he happened to mentioned when interviewed about this. The media is such a joke nowadays.

Ah...

I didn't recognize the source, so I suppose I should have guessed. :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:09 pm 
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The last point can only happen if mandatory tyre stops are scrapped altogether. Then everyone will just drive without a pit stop - bar any damage.

Will this improve racing as long as the competitive difference between teams remains as big as it is?
Will drivers be allowed to push every lap if they have a > 10 seconds gap to the next? Or still be asked to coast?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:44 pm 
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totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:54 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


I think history shows that the way FIA works is to try and dumb down someone's lead by shuffling the rules. Not letting them race, where at some point convergence will occur and the others will catch up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:04 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


You can keep peddling this. It won't make it anymore true.

The problems are really the cause for the continued status quo and the constant limitation of unpredictability.

The Merc dominance is only a symptom of the problems.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


You can keep peddling this. It won't make it anymore true.

The problems are really the cause for the continued status quo and the constant limitation of unpredictability.

The Merc dominance is only a symptom of the problems.

Mikey, I believe that this is how YOU actually feel but I also know that there are a large number of fans (particularly of Ferrari and/or Vettel) who would be perfectly happy with the rules as-is so long as Vettel/Ferrari were winning right now instead of Hamilton/Mercedes. All of their complaints would magically go away with a change of winner.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


You can keep peddling this. It won't make it anymore true.

The problems are really the cause for the continued status quo and the constant limitation of unpredictability.

The Merc dominance is only a symptom of the problems.

Mikey, I believe that this is how YOU actually feel but I also know that there are a large number of fans (particularly of Ferrari and/or Vettel) who would be perfectly happy with the rules as-is so long as Vettel/Ferrari were winning right now instead of Hamilton/Mercedes. All of their complaints would magically go away with a change of winner.


This is the crux. I don't think you do know that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


You can keep peddling this. It won't make it anymore true.

The problems are really the cause for the continued status quo and the constant limitation of unpredictability.

The Merc dominance is only a symptom of the problems.

Mikey, I believe that this is how YOU actually feel but I also know that there are a large number of fans (particularly of Ferrari and/or Vettel) who would be perfectly happy with the rules as-is so long as Vettel/Ferrari were winning right now instead of Hamilton/Mercedes. All of their complaints would magically go away with a change of winner.


This is the crux. I don't think you do know that.

Hamilton said recently that we shouldn't blame them, it's not the drivers fault that F1 is boring. So even the Merc team themselves understand that this is killing the sport. Even if you win, it doesn't mean much if the sport is "dying".


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:27 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pc27b wrote:
totally misleading title and article

if ferrari could build a car to compete with mercedes, it would go a long way towards "fixing f1"

More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


You can keep peddling this. It won't make it anymore true.

The problems are really the cause for the continued status quo and the constant limitation of unpredictability.

The Merc dominance is only a symptom of the problems.

Mikey, I believe that this is how YOU actually feel but I also know that there are a large number of fans (particularly of Ferrari and/or Vettel) who would be perfectly happy with the rules as-is so long as Vettel/Ferrari were winning right now instead of Hamilton/Mercedes. All of their complaints would magically go away with a change of winner.


This is the crux. I don't think you do know that.

So you believe that if Vettel were winning right now with the same rules that we would have the same overreaction to every race? Come on now. You know better than that.

Take the last GP for example. The French GP was certainly a boring race but it wasn't an unusually boring race. Every season in F1 since I've been watching (and I've been watching for decades) has had multiple races that were just as boring as that one. The thing that is different here is the reaction. There is an overreaction to what's happening right now and it is primarily fueled by the Ferrari/Vettel fans and their frustration. The reaction to the penalty in Canada was another good example. There were people treating that as though it was the worst penalty call ever; despite the fact that the penalty was rather easily defensible. No such reaction to Daniel's penalties I noticed.

The rules are no different than they were last year and this time last year everyone was talking about how great things were. 9 races into last year we had three wins for Mercedes, three wins for Ferrari and three wins for RBR. Vettel was leading the points standings and everyone was happy. This year, Mercedes have left Ferrari behind and Hamilton is way out in front in the standings and now, all of a sudden, everything needs to be thrown out and there's a huge crisis.

Like I said, the moment Ferrari starts winning again, the complaints will die down and if they actually manage to win the championship, the complaints will turn to praise for how well things are working.

And for the record, there are real structural issues in F1 that could use fixing but there have always been those. We'll see if anything effective is actually done about it or if the governing bodies will once again bow down to the manufacturers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
So you believe that if Vettel were winning right now with the same rules that we would have the same overreaction to every race? Come on now. You know better than that.

I seem to remember that the last time Vettel was winning, fans were complaining about how boring and broken the sport was, and looking forward to the 2014 rules to shake things up. I'm pretty sure I could dredge up a few 2013 threads to prove it, to be honest.

There wasn't as much complaining in 2017 or 2018, when the racing was better but the winner was the same. This idea that it's all about Hamilton hate is ********.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:01 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
More true than anything said on the matter. Most of the incessant crying that's going on right now is based on the fact that Hamilton/Mercedes keep winning. A new winner would silence most of the complaints regardless of any changes to the rules or cars.


You can keep peddling this. It won't make it anymore true.

The problems are really the cause for the continued status quo and the constant limitation of unpredictability.

The Merc dominance is only a symptom of the problems.

Mikey, I believe that this is how YOU actually feel but I also know that there are a large number of fans (particularly of Ferrari and/or Vettel) who would be perfectly happy with the rules as-is so long as Vettel/Ferrari were winning right now instead of Hamilton/Mercedes. All of their complaints would magically go away with a change of winner.


This is the crux. I don't think you do know that.

So you believe that if Vettel were winning right now with the same rules that we would have the same overreaction to every race? Come on now. You know better than that.

Take the last GP for example. The French GP was certainly a boring race but it wasn't an unusually boring race. Every season in F1 since I've been watching (and I've been watching for decades) has had multiple races that were just as boring as that one. The thing that is different here is the reaction. There is an overreaction to what's happening right now and it is primarily fueled by the Ferrari/Vettel fans and their frustration. The reaction to the penalty in Canada was another good example. There were people treating that as though it was the worst penalty call ever; despite the fact that the penalty was rather easily defensible. No such reaction to Daniel's penalties I noticed.

The rules are no different than they were last year and this time last year everyone was talking about how great things were. 9 races into last year we had three wins for Mercedes, three wins for Ferrari and three wins for RBR. Vettel was leading the points standings and everyone was happy. This year, Mercedes have left Ferrari behind and Hamilton is way out in front in the standings and now, all of a sudden, everything needs to be thrown out and there's a huge crisis.

Like I said, the moment Ferrari starts winning again, the complaints will die down and if they actually manage to win the championship, the complaints will turn to praise for how well things are working.

And for the record, there are real structural issues in F1 that could use fixing but there have always been those. We'll see if anything effective is actually done about it or if the governing bodies will once again bow down to the manufacturers.
#

I don't agree. I think with Vettel winning you'd be getting almost as many complaints. Certainly very few people would be praising how good F1 is. All the same problems would still be there.

I don't mind Merc dominating so much. What I do mind is that I can tell you who the top 3 teams will be in Australia 2020. This is the only era of the sport I could do that with any certainty.

That's not the only issue of course. It's just part of the constant erosion of unpredictability and things to actually get excited about.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So you believe that if Vettel were winning right now with the same rules that we would have the same overreaction to every race? Come on now. You know better than that.

I seem to remember that the last time Vettel was winning, fans were complaining about how boring and broken the sport was, and looking forward to the 2014 rules to shake things up. I'm pretty sure I could dredge up a few 2013 threads to prove it, to be honest.

There wasn't as much complaining in 2017 or 2018, when the racing was better but the winner was the same. This idea that it's all about Hamilton hate is ********.

Who said anything about that? If it weren't Lewis winning but someone else, we'd have the same thing (so long as they were winning for an extended period of time). We saw this even directed against Ferrari back in the 2000-2004 window of time when it was Michael winning. And yes, there was a good amount of it back when Vettel was winning by the time he got to title #4.

This is the way racing fans are. They do not embrace dominance. I can remember back in Tiger Woods' peak years, he used to smash the field by 10 strokes in some of those tournaments and the golf fans couldn't get enough. Racing fans just don't work that way. When someone starts winning consistently there is an almost immediate reaction to try to blunt their success. That's why so many series have these BOP rules built into the very fabric of the competition. Motor racing fans hate winners.


Last edited by sandman1347 on Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mikey, I believe that this is how YOU actually feel but I also know that there are a large number of fans (particularly of Ferrari and/or Vettel) who would be perfectly happy with the rules as-is so long as Vettel/Ferrari were winning right now instead of Hamilton/Mercedes. All of their complaints would magically go away with a change of winner.


This is the crux. I don't think you do know that.

So you believe that if Vettel were winning right now with the same rules that we would have the same overreaction to every race? Come on now. You know better than that.

Take the last GP for example. The French GP was certainly a boring race but it wasn't an unusually boring race. Every season in F1 since I've been watching (and I've been watching for decades) has had multiple races that were just as boring as that one. The thing that is different here is the reaction. There is an overreaction to what's happening right now and it is primarily fueled by the Ferrari/Vettel fans and their frustration. The reaction to the penalty in Canada was another good example. There were people treating that as though it was the worst penalty call ever; despite the fact that the penalty was rather easily defensible. No such reaction to Daniel's penalties I noticed.

The rules are no different than they were last year and this time last year everyone was talking about how great things were. 9 races into last year we had three wins for Mercedes, three wins for Ferrari and three wins for RBR. Vettel was leading the points standings and everyone was happy. This year, Mercedes have left Ferrari behind and Hamilton is way out in front in the standings and now, all of a sudden, everything needs to be thrown out and there's a huge crisis.

Like I said, the moment Ferrari starts winning again, the complaints will die down and if they actually manage to win the championship, the complaints will turn to praise for how well things are working.

And for the record, there are real structural issues in F1 that could use fixing but there have always been those. We'll see if anything effective is actually done about it or if the governing bodies will once again bow down to the manufacturers.
#

I don't agree. I think with Vettel winning you'd be getting almost as many complaints. Certainly very few people would be praising how good F1 is. All the same problems would still be there.

I don't mind Merc dominating so much. What I do mind is that I can tell you who the top 3 teams will be in Australia 2020. This is the only era of the sport I could do that with any certainty.

That's not the only issue of course. It's just part of the constant erosion of unpredictability and things to actually get excited about.

I'll address the three bolded items in order.

1. As Vettel hasn't won in years and especially because he's driving for Ferrari, even if he had a dominant season, a large percentage of the crying would stop. If he were to win 3-4 titles in a row, it would be back at full volume.

2. I wouldn't be too sure about that. I would not be surprised if either McLaren or Renault breach that top 3 by next season and certainly we should have a substantial shake-up after the budgets are capped for 2021. There were many years in the late 90s into the late 00s where we knew it would be between Ferrari and McLaren before the season started. It's not so unusual.

3. I do think the sport could use more unpredictability but I think that the way they have gone about trying to create it is dubious. There is low hanging fruit that is basically being ignored. The first step is to remove any connection between qualifying tires and race tires/strategy. The fact that the top 10 have to start on used tires basically removes any chance that they could beat each other using tire strategy at most races. It also makes the races extremely predictable as we tend to know when the pit stops will take place and how many of them there will be (usually 1). So I'd say eliminate that rule and maybe force the teams to use all three compounds during the race and then you would instantly have a less predictable show. Anyway, I think we are all in agreement that the sport needs to improve the competitive balance.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:41 am 
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He did not discover america, i think most of fans got the same plan.

Tbh for me, i am so disgusted of current pseudo formula, the all hail the mods hybrid era, those truck size cars, drivers who can`t go full speed, have to care the tires, load battery, WTF.

2014 + is not F1, those overweight officials like Ross Brawn are derealized 100%

Why there is no hope ? cus 2021 will be the same, u will see.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:
It's not a bad plan, as far as it goes. But it's so vague that it doesn't really commit to anything - as expected from a politically savvy driver! 8)


"Politically savvy" suggests an implication that Hamilton's motivations are disingenuous.

May I politely suggest to you that there exists the possibility that Hamilton's views on the rules around F1 may in fact be sincere and guileless.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Huw wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It's not a bad plan, as far as it goes. But it's so vague that it doesn't really commit to anything - as expected from a politically savvy driver! 8)

"Politically savvy" suggests an implication that Hamilton's motivations are disingenuous.

May I politely suggest to you that there exists the possibility that Hamilton's views on the rules around F1 may in fact be sincere and guileless.

He didn't express any actual views, just some generic ideas that are hard to argue with. Hence, politically savvy; he didn't commit to anything, but sounded good doing it.

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