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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Hamilton isn't even the fastest Mercedes driver. C'MON. Verstappen. Fastest man on the planet.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Verstappen is without a doubt the fastest driver on the planet.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:10 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Verstappen is without a doubt the fastest driver on the planet.

It's so funny how a couple of races has emboldened you to put your opinions forward as though they are facts. The only thing without doubt is that Verstappen is faster than Gasly.

I will say this though. If Max converts the pole to the win here tomorrow, he will have firmly taken control of the driver of the year discussion. Three wins in a car that is not the best would speak for itself.

Hamilton's 2019 season is not as strong as his 2018 season in terms of qualifying especially but also in terms of just general consistency. I think there are a couple of possible reasons why Bottas has been able to be so competitive on Saturdays this season but it's something that Lewis will need to get on top of if he wants this to be one of his best years.

Very impressed by Max though. He has delivered quite consistently all year and the Red Bull program is clearly moving forward as well. We know that they are always more competitive in the second half of the season and races like Singapore, Mexico and Brazil are usually strong outings for them. Let's see what they can do. Honestly I'm starting to think that Max may have been on to something in sticking with Red Bull. You can forget about 2019 but I think that Max will have his first legitimate title shot in 2020.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:02 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Verstappen is without a doubt the fastest driver on the planet.

It's so funny how a couple of races has emboldened you to put your opinions forward as though they are facts. The only thing without doubt is that Verstappen is faster than Gasly.

The first post in this thread is June 25th, before the Austrian GP. The poster in question also started a thread over two years ago stating Max was the fastest driver on the grid. You may not agree with their opinion, but you're wrong to say they've been emboldened by the recent races. They've been saying it all along.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:19 am 
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My God reading this is giving me flashbacks to Vettel in his RB days.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:12 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
My God reading this is giving me flashbacks to Vettel in his RB days.


It reminds me more of Raikkonen with what began in 2003 and extended through to its peak at the end of 2006 and I was completely on board then thinking he was better than Schumacher.

Time will tell, but thus far Verstappen has done nothing to break the image that he can be the best. Hamilton definitely drives to his competition, if he needs to go to a slightly higher level he seems to put the extra work in a raise his game. I think there is a bit of complacency in Hamilton this year. Unlike last year where it was a very close title fight until the run in and he had probably his best ever year.

Has anybody else noticed, the GP2 drivers are much more hit and miss now since the new faster cars in 2017. Van doorne was unimpressive despite his pre-F1 record and now it seems the same with Gasly. However, Leclerc, Norris and Russell seem very good.

I've just looked Gasly up, he won GP2 in his third season. Jolyon Palmer did that too. The real impressive guys do it in year one or at least win races in year one or have a few standout drives.

I think Verstappen would be beating just about anybody in that Red Bull, its tailored around him now. But Gasly clearly isn't the real deal, 3 years to win GP2 and all he did in F1 was beat Hartley. Red Bull had all those years of good drivers unable to get in the car - Ricciardo, Vergne, Buemi, Alg' as well as Hamilton and Alonso knocking on the door. It seems now they have a complete lack of talent in there ranks that Hartley got a seat and now they are taking GP2 veterans into the main team.

They have also had to keep going back to Kyvat, which will hopefully come good. He almost certainly will get another go in the main team. I just hope they don't drop him in mid season, because he will be destroyed in that scenario.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:30 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
My God reading this is giving me flashbacks to Vettel in his RB days.


It reminds me more of Raikkonen with what began in 2003 and extended through to its peak at the end of 2006 and I was completely on board then thinking he was better than Schumacher.

Time will tell, but thus far Verstappen has done nothing to break the image that he can be the best. Hamilton definitely drives to his competition, if he needs to go to a slightly higher level he seems to put the extra work in a raise his game. I think there is a bit of complacency in Hamilton this year. Unlike last year where it was a very close title fight until the run in and he had probably his best ever year.

Has anybody else noticed, the GP2 drivers are much more hit and miss now since the new faster cars in 2017. Van doorne was unimpressive despite his pre-F1 record and now it seems the same with Gasly. However, Leclerc, Norris and Russell seem very good.

I've just looked Gasly up, he won GP2 in his third season. Jolyon Palmer did that too. The real impressive guys do it in year one or at least win races in year one or have a few standout drives.

I think Verstappen would be beating just about anybody in that Red Bull, its tailored around him now. But Gasly clearly isn't the real deal, 3 years to win GP2 and all he did in F1 was beat Hartley. Red Bull had all those years of good drivers unable to get in the car - Ricciardo, Vergne, Buemi, Alg' as well as Hamilton and Alonso knocking on the door. It seems now they have a complete lack of talent in there ranks that Hartley got a seat and now they are taking GP2 veterans into the main team.

They have also had to keep going back to Kyvat, which will hopefully come good. He almost certainly will get another go in the main team. I just hope they don't drop him in mid season, because he will be destroyed in that scenario.

A point that should be made about Gasly's performance (and this is a point which is part of the reason you can't just compare deltas between teams mates and use simple arithmetic) is that a driver's performance is not as simple as just being a number on scale. Let's say we graded Senna at 100, we can't then say "Prost is 95, Mansell is 92, Schumacher 98"

Cars have different characteristics and as a result in one car Prost may be 100, or he may be 90, or he may be 105 relative to Senna. With a lot of cars, the variability isn't that high, and some drivers are more particular than others. Hamilton and Alonso's great strength (along with Schumacher and Senna) is that they could find a way to make any car drive close to its limit. Some drivers could match (or even edge) those drivers when the car was to their liking, but be massively slower in more difficult / unusual cars.

The two most famous examples of this I can think of are the blown diffuser Red Bulls, where Vettel was far happier with driving that car and the percularities it brought along, but even more famously is the 1992/1993 Williams. Patrese didn't like it one bit, because it required the driver to have complete faith that the system would just work, something Mansell was able to deal with - as a result Mansell completely dominated Patrese by a margin that he wouldn't have had in more typical F1 cars. When Prost came to Williams the next year, while he still dominated the season, he was not as comfortable with the system as Mansell and I suspect Mansell would have beaten him had they been teammates, even though Prost was the slightly superior driver.

The current Red Bull is tailored around Max, and while only a fool would suggest Max isn't a significantly better driver than Gasly, it's highly likely that its exaggerating Gasly's speed difference to Max. For this reason, if Max was to go to Mercedes (and be given fair treatment) I would expect him to lose to Hamilton over a season. And likewise, if Hamilton moved to Red Bull, I would expect the same.

One other point to be made regarding yesterday's result and comments posted on here since: I don't think Max getting pole yesterday changes anything regarding how he is seen against Hamilton. For one thing, it's taken him 4 seasons in a race winning car to get a pole position, but also, this was a circuit Red Bull has been expected to do well at since the start of the season. Monaco, Austria, Hungary, Singapore and Mexico are great Red Bull tracks, Max putting the Red Bull on pole there by 0.02 of a second is not Senna outqualifying Prost by 1.4 seconds at Monaco.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:49 am 
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I think people putting Verstappen above Hamilton at this stage are getting ahead of themselves. Hamilton's reputation has been built up over a 12 year career; Verstappen on the other hand has looked a top quality driver for just over 12 months when he stopped crashing into everyone.

Is Verstappen the standout driver this season? And does he have the potential to be a better driver than Hamilton is now? I would answer yes to both questions, but he still has so much more to prove. I am still to be convinced for instance that he won't go playing bumper cars again once he is thrust into the pressure of a title race. I've been hearing that he's turned things around since Monaco last year, but he still managed to have an entirely avoidable crash with a lapped car in that time.

As for outright pace, I would say they are comparable but I just don't see enough evidence yet that would convince me to put Verstappen ahead. Reputations are built over numerous seasons, across different sets of technical regulations, different team environments and different team mates rather than by just being fast at a particular point in time. The example cited above of Raikkonen's McLaren days is a good one to keep in mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:58 am 
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j man wrote:
I think people putting Verstappen above Hamilton at this stage are getting ahead of themselves. Hamilton's reputation has been built up over a 12 year career; Verstappen on the other hand has looked a top quality driver for just over 12 months when he stopped crashing into everyone.

Is Verstappen the standout driver this season? And does he have the potential to be a better driver than Hamilton is now? I would answer yes to both questions, but he still has so much more to prove. I am still to be convinced for instance that he won't go playing bumper cars again once he is thrust into the pressure of a title race. I've been hearing that he's turned things around since Monaco last year, but he still managed to have an entirely avoidable crash with a lapped car in that time.

As for outright pace, I would say they are comparable but I just don't see enough evidence yet that would convince me to put Verstappen ahead. Reputations are built over numerous seasons, across different sets of technical regulations, different team environments and different team mates rather than by just being fast at a particular point in time. The example cited above of Raikkonen's McLaren days is a good one to keep in mind.


In a sense, I don't think people are getting ahead of themselves. It's fine to try and judge in the moment and not be overly encumbered by reputation, i.e., context and past accomplishments. And 20+ races of performance strung together is a reasonable window to judge by. In another sense I agree that nonetheless faith is being placed into belief without anything remotely close to full justification.

For me, I'd be happy to proclaim him best on the grid based on the performance of a full single season. So far, Max's great performance is split over two seasons. If Max keeps this up till the end of the season then I'd be satisfied to give it to him unless Lewis goes 2018 blitzkrieg again in which case I'll demand another season of observation. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:28 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
but even more famously is the 1992/1993 Williams. Patrese didn't like it one bit, because it required the driver to have complete faith that the system would just work, something Mansell was able to deal with - as a result Mansell completely dominated Patrese by a margin that he wouldn't have had in more typical F1 cars.

The current Red Bull is tailored around Max, and while only a fool would suggest Max isn't a significantly better driver than Gasly, it's highly likely that its exaggerating Gasly's speed difference to Max. For this reason, if Max was to go to Mercedes (and be given fair treatment) I would expect him to lose to Hamilton over a season. And likewise, if Hamilton moved to Red Bull, I would expect the same.


Yeah in regards to Patrese, I remember he was so sure that the gap between them had to be down to Mansell getting preferential treatment that Williams actually put Mansell in Patrese's car & vice versa, swapping only the seats & pedal boxes, to prove to Patrese that they were both getting equal equipment.

The result? Mansell was still well clear of Patrese. Patrese just couldn't handle that car.

I'm probably in the minority here but i'm not getting carried away with Verstappens wins & now his pole. To me his 2 wins have been a tad opportunistic, certainly Hockenheim was as it was such a lottery & in Austria both Mercs were terribly hamstrung with cooling problems. RB has always been a happy hunting ground for RB so you'd expact them to be strong here.

I'm actually more impressed with Leclerc this year than Verstappen. Yeah i'll admit a little of it is down to bias but, trying to be as objective as possible & given that this is Leclerc 2nd year in F1, he's in a Ferrari team which is notorious for eating it's own, he's not the prime driver in the team thus the team is not built around him & his team mate is a 4x WC I honestly believe his exploits this season eclipse those of Verstappens.......... so far.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:50 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Interesting question. I'd like to say "as quick or quicker". One thing stands out: still no Poles for Max - although I'm sure it's only a matter of time. Over a lap there's probably nothing in it, but in different cars, different circuits, over a race, over a season.. it's for Hamilton. For now...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:01 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
My God reading this is giving me flashbacks to Vettel in his RB days.


It reminds me more of Raikkonen with what began in 2003 and extended through to its peak at the end of 2006 and I was completely on board then thinking he was better than Schumacher.

Time will tell, but thus far Verstappen has done nothing to break the image that he can be the best. Hamilton definitely drives to his competition, if he needs to go to a slightly higher level he seems to put the extra work in a raise his game. I think there is a bit of complacency in Hamilton this year. Unlike last year where it was a very close title fight until the run in and he had probably his best ever year.

Has anybody else noticed, the GP2 drivers are much more hit and miss now since the new faster cars in 2017. Van doorne was unimpressive despite his pre-F1 record and now it seems the same with Gasly. However, Leclerc, Norris and Russell seem very good.

I've just looked Gasly up, he won GP2 in his third season. Jolyon Palmer did that too. The real impressive guys do it in year one or at least win races in year one or have a few standout drives.

I think Verstappen would be beating just about anybody in that Red Bull, its tailored around him now. But Gasly clearly isn't the real deal, 3 years to win GP2 and all he did in F1 was beat Hartley. Red Bull had all those years of good drivers unable to get in the car - Ricciardo, Vergne, Buemi, Alg' as well as Hamilton and Alonso knocking on the door. It seems now they have a complete lack of talent in there ranks that Hartley got a seat and now they are taking GP2 veterans into the main team.

They have also had to keep going back to Kyvat, which will hopefully come good. He almost certainly will get another go in the main team. I just hope they don't drop him in mid season, because he will be destroyed in that scenario.


2nd full season to be fair... so his pre F1 CV is

2011 French F4 Championship (3rd)
2012 Eurocup Formula Renault (10th)
2013 Eurocup Formula Renault (1st)
2014 Formula Renault 3.5 Series (2nd)
2015 GP2 Series (8th)
2016 GP2 Series (1st)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:50 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
but even more famously is the 1992/1993 Williams. Patrese didn't like it one bit, because it required the driver to have complete faith that the system would just work, something Mansell was able to deal with - as a result Mansell completely dominated Patrese by a margin that he wouldn't have had in more typical F1 cars.

The current Red Bull is tailored around Max, and while only a fool would suggest Max isn't a significantly better driver than Gasly, it's highly likely that its exaggerating Gasly's speed difference to Max. For this reason, if Max was to go to Mercedes (and be given fair treatment) I would expect him to lose to Hamilton over a season. And likewise, if Hamilton moved to Red Bull, I would expect the same.


Yeah in regards to Patrese, I remember he was so sure that the gap between them had to be down to Mansell getting preferential treatment that Williams actually put Mansell in Patrese's car & vice versa, swapping only the seats & pedal boxes, to prove to Patrese that they were both getting equal equipment.

The result? Mansell was still well clear of Patrese. Patrese just couldn't handle that car.

I'm probably in the minority here but i'm not getting carried away with Verstappens wins & now his pole. To me his 2 wins have been a tad opportunistic, certainly Hockenheim was as it was such a lottery & in Austria both Mercs were terribly hamstrung with cooling problems. RB has always been a happy hunting ground for RB so you'd expact them to be strong here.

I'm actually more impressed with Leclerc this year than Verstappen. Yeah i'll admit a little of it is down to bias but, trying to be as objective as possible & given that this is Leclerc 2nd year in F1, he's in a Ferrari team which is notorious for eating it's own, he's not the prime driver in the team thus the team is not built around him & his team mate is a 4x WC I honestly believe his exploits this season eclipse those of Verstappens.......... so far.


I cannot even begin to put Leclerc's perfomance in league with Max's. I'm wondering how that's even possible. :o


One can talk about relative circumstances and 2nd season vs 5th season but in actual level produced I think it's ludicrous. That isn't to say I don't think Leclerc is a huge talent though or that he can't become as good as Max. His glut of errors this season do mar my impression of his actual performance but not his potential. On the contrary, I see a man willing to push the limits and find the margins for maximum performance, which in time will lead to terrific speed but without the errors. But he's not close to being there yet and has no argument whatsoever as being the best driver on the grid. Granted however you did say "more impressed" and then mentioned circumstance rather than saying "outright better/faster/superior".


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:06 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
but even more famously is the 1992/1993 Williams. Patrese didn't like it one bit, because it required the driver to have complete faith that the system would just work, something Mansell was able to deal with - as a result Mansell completely dominated Patrese by a margin that he wouldn't have had in more typical F1 cars.

The current Red Bull is tailored around Max, and while only a fool would suggest Max isn't a significantly better driver than Gasly, it's highly likely that its exaggerating Gasly's speed difference to Max. For this reason, if Max was to go to Mercedes (and be given fair treatment) I would expect him to lose to Hamilton over a season. And likewise, if Hamilton moved to Red Bull, I would expect the same.


Yeah in regards to Patrese, I remember he was so sure that the gap between them had to be down to Mansell getting preferential treatment that Williams actually put Mansell in Patrese's car & vice versa, swapping only the seats & pedal boxes, to prove to Patrese that they were both getting equal equipment.

The result? Mansell was still well clear of Patrese. Patrese just couldn't handle that car.

I'm probably in the minority here but i'm not getting carried away with Verstappens wins & now his pole. To me his 2 wins have been a tad opportunistic, certainly Hockenheim was as it was such a lottery & in Austria both Mercs were terribly hamstrung with cooling problems. RB has always been a happy hunting ground for RB so you'd expact them to be strong here.

I'm actually more impressed with Leclerc this year than Verstappen. Yeah i'll admit a little of it is down to bias but, trying to be as objective as possible & given that this is Leclerc 2nd year in F1, he's in a Ferrari team which is notorious for eating it's own, he's not the prime driver in the team thus the team is not built around him & his team mate is a 4x WC I honestly believe his exploits this season eclipse those of Verstappens.......... so far.


I cannot even begin to put Leclerc's perfomance in league with Max's. I'm wondering how that's even possible. :o


One can talk about relative circumstances and 2nd season vs 5th season but in actual level produced I think it's ludicrous. That isn't to say I don't think Leclerc is a huge talent though or that he can't become as good as Max. His glut of errors this season do mar my impression of his actual performance but not his potential. On the contrary, I see a man willing to push the limits and find the margins for maximum performance, which in time will lead to terrific speed but without the errors. But he's not close to being there yet and has no argument whatsoever as being the best driver on the grid. Granted however you did say "more impressed" and then mentioned circumstance rather than saying "outright better/faster/superior".


Because I exactly meant relative to their individual circumstances & no, I didn't say I thought Leclerc was a better driver than Verstappen.

People seem to be looking to hit Leclerc for his errors but seem to forget or overlook the fact that up until a tad over 12 months ago, into his 4th season in the sport, Verstappens nickname wasn't "Max Vercrashen" for the hell of it. But even last year people were saying " Aw, Max is young. Give him time. He'll grow & learn". Now to his credit it looks like he has, mostly. It's unfortunate some people don't seem to be giving Leclerc the same benefit of the doubt.

I stand by what I said, I firmly believe that, circumstances considered, Leclerc has been more impressive this year than Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:53 pm 
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I am absolutely convinced that Lewis Hamilton is the fastest sportsman of all-time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:56 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I am absolutely convinced that Lewis Hamilton is the fastest sportsman of all-time.


Not only on the planet, but in the universe.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I am absolutely convinced that Lewis Hamilton is the fastest sportsman of all-time.


Not only on the planet, but in the universe.


I still need to see proof of this level of performance the rest of the season though to proclaim Lewis of the Saint Hamilton as the greatest in the multiverse, however.


( :thumbup: :lol: )


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Verstappens reign is over. Just joking by the way. A great battle between the pair of them. It was great to see two drivers push every lap for an entire stint.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Verstappens reign is over. Just joking by the way. A great battle between the pair of them. It was great to see two drivers push every lap for an entire stint.

I only hope to see more of it this year. Very intense battle both in terms of the action and in terms of strategy, pressure, etc. My gut tells me that this will be the battle for the championship as soon as next year.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:09 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
My God reading this is giving me flashbacks to Vettel in his RB days.


It reminds me more of Raikkonen with what began in 2003 and extended through to its peak at the end of 2006 and I was completely on board then thinking he was better than Schumacher.

Time will tell, but thus far Verstappen has done nothing to break the image that he can be the best. Hamilton definitely drives to his competition, if he needs to go to a slightly higher level he seems to put the extra work in a raise his game. I think there is a bit of complacency in Hamilton this year. Unlike last year where it was a very close title fight until the run in and he had probably his best ever year.

Has anybody else noticed, the GP2 drivers are much more hit and miss now since the new faster cars in 2017. Van doorne was unimpressive despite his pre-F1 record and now it seems the same with Gasly. However, Leclerc, Norris and Russell seem very good.

I've just looked Gasly up, he won GP2 in his third season. Jolyon Palmer did that too. The real impressive guys do it in year one or at least win races in year one or have a few standout drives.

I think Verstappen would be beating just about anybody in that Red Bull, its tailored around him now. But Gasly clearly isn't the real deal, 3 years to win GP2 and all he did in F1 was beat Hartley. Red Bull had all those years of good drivers unable to get in the car - Ricciardo, Vergne, Buemi, Alg' as well as Hamilton and Alonso knocking on the door. It seems now they have a complete lack of talent in there ranks that Hartley got a seat and now they are taking GP2 veterans into the main team.

They have also had to keep going back to Kyvat, which will hopefully come good. He almost certainly will get another go in the main team. I just hope they don't drop him in mid season, because he will be destroyed in that scenario.

Gasly was GP2 Champion in his second season and had some pole positions in his first season so I think you got that part of the assessment wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
but even more famously is the 1992/1993 Williams. Patrese didn't like it one bit, because it required the driver to have complete faith that the system would just work, something Mansell was able to deal with - as a result Mansell completely dominated Patrese by a margin that he wouldn't have had in more typical F1 cars.

The current Red Bull is tailored around Max, and while only a fool would suggest Max isn't a significantly better driver than Gasly, it's highly likely that its exaggerating Gasly's speed difference to Max. For this reason, if Max was to go to Mercedes (and be given fair treatment) I would expect him to lose to Hamilton over a season. And likewise, if Hamilton moved to Red Bull, I would expect the same.


Yeah in regards to Patrese, I remember he was so sure that the gap between them had to be down to Mansell getting preferential treatment that Williams actually put Mansell in Patrese's car & vice versa, swapping only the seats & pedal boxes, to prove to Patrese that they were both getting equal equipment.

The result? Mansell was still well clear of Patrese. Patrese just couldn't handle that car.

I'm probably in the minority here but i'm not getting carried away with Verstappens wins & now his pole. To me his 2 wins have been a tad opportunistic, certainly Hockenheim was as it was such a lottery & in Austria both Mercs were terribly hamstrung with cooling problems. RB has always been a happy hunting ground for RB so you'd expact them to be strong here.

I'm actually more impressed with Leclerc this year than Verstappen. Yeah i'll admit a little of it is down to bias but, trying to be as objective as possible & given that this is Leclerc 2nd year in F1, he's in a Ferrari team which is notorious for eating it's own, he's not the prime driver in the team thus the team is not built around him & his team mate is a 4x WC I honestly believe his exploits this season eclipse those of Verstappens.......... so far.


I cannot even begin to put Leclerc's perfomance in league with Max's. I'm wondering how that's even possible. :o


One can talk about relative circumstances and 2nd season vs 5th season but in actual level produced I think it's ludicrous. That isn't to say I don't think Leclerc is a huge talent though or that he can't become as good as Max. His glut of errors this season do mar my impression of his actual performance but not his potential. On the contrary, I see a man willing to push the limits and find the margins for maximum performance, which in time will lead to terrific speed but without the errors. But he's not close to being there yet and has no argument whatsoever as being the best driver on the grid. Granted however you did say "more impressed" and then mentioned circumstance rather than saying "outright better/faster/superior".

Indeed I would have Leclerc as no better than 5th best presently.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
but even more famously is the 1992/1993 Williams. Patrese didn't like it one bit, because it required the driver to have complete faith that the system would just work, something Mansell was able to deal with - as a result Mansell completely dominated Patrese by a margin that he wouldn't have had in more typical F1 cars.

The current Red Bull is tailored around Max, and while only a fool would suggest Max isn't a significantly better driver than Gasly, it's highly likely that its exaggerating Gasly's speed difference to Max. For this reason, if Max was to go to Mercedes (and be given fair treatment) I would expect him to lose to Hamilton over a season. And likewise, if Hamilton moved to Red Bull, I would expect the same.


Yeah in regards to Patrese, I remember he was so sure that the gap between them had to be down to Mansell getting preferential treatment that Williams actually put Mansell in Patrese's car & vice versa, swapping only the seats & pedal boxes, to prove to Patrese that they were both getting equal equipment.

The result? Mansell was still well clear of Patrese. Patrese just couldn't handle that car.

I'm probably in the minority here but i'm not getting carried away with Verstappens wins & now his pole. To me his 2 wins have been a tad opportunistic, certainly Hockenheim was as it was such a lottery & in Austria both Mercs were terribly hamstrung with cooling problems. RB has always been a happy hunting ground for RB so you'd expact them to be strong here.

I'm actually more impressed with Leclerc this year than Verstappen. Yeah i'll admit a little of it is down to bias but, trying to be as objective as possible & given that this is Leclerc 2nd year in F1, he's in a Ferrari team which is notorious for eating it's own, he's not the prime driver in the team thus the team is not built around him & his team mate is a 4x WC I honestly believe his exploits this season eclipse those of Verstappens.......... so far.


I cannot even begin to put Leclerc's perfomance in league with Max's. I'm wondering how that's even possible. :o


One can talk about relative circumstances and 2nd season vs 5th season but in actual level produced I think it's ludicrous. That isn't to say I don't think Leclerc is a huge talent though or that he can't become as good as Max. His glut of errors this season do mar my impression of his actual performance but not his potential. On the contrary, I see a man willing to push the limits and find the margins for maximum performance, which in time will lead to terrific speed but without the errors. But he's not close to being there yet and has no argument whatsoever as being the best driver on the grid. Granted however you did say "more impressed" and then mentioned circumstance rather than saying "outright better/faster/superior".

Indeed I would have Leclerc as no better than 5th best presently.


Yes, you could say Leclerc is showing he has potential to be as good as Verstappen in the future but he certainly isn't as good as him right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:52 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I am absolutely convinced that Lewis Hamilton is the fastest sportsman of all-time.


Wrong

Wing Commander Andrew Duncan Green OBE reached 763.035 miles per hour on October 15, 1997.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:18 pm 
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Verstappen is good, and he intends to be the best. He is not there yet, but he is determined to be able to beat anyone on any track.

One dirty little secret going on within iRacing is that genuine Formula One drivers are now honing their skills within that sim. Yes, a sim is not that same as real life. But it does have scenarios and skill demands that translate directly into a real race car. This is just some of the racing madness Max has now immersed himself into.

Image

Anyone who has competed at snooker or darts appreciates how much practice one requires to maintain that sharp edge. While almost any professional driver can just jump into a car and come very close to their maximum in a few laps, a sim surmounts many of the barriers in Formula One. it costs a small fortune just to run a car, not less do practice laps. In a sim a driver can lap all day, the only costs less than the price of a coffee.

Verstappen won the 2015 "Pass of the Year" with his overtake of Nasr at Spa. He practiced it within iRacing.



A Formula One driver has 21 races in a season. Each race is less than two hours of duration, the result is that a Formula One driver accumulates a miserly amount of track time. I watched Vestappen on the lead up to Hungaroring. He was fully prepared for wheel to wheel close combat with anyone.

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