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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:

Hamilton is of course the better driver. He already has won those championships. I do however agree that the calm Hamilton might get a little frusty when he get's a challenge and a driver is beating him. We've seen it before: ignoring the other driver by not even talking, saying there might be some trust issues with the team etc. In a way very similar to Alonso by creating an unpleasant atmosphere. But hey, they are racing and that's passion. Sometimes they act like childs. Millionaire childs that is but it's the same behavior.

I feel Hamilton is a unsecure driver who needs a lot of help from the team when things don't go his way. Talking to his enhineer: "Why did you gave me those tyres" and then losing all hope like he doesn't care anymore and his engineer needs to help him by saying he can do this, that he is the best etc.


You sound as though you believe Hamilton is at the beginning of his career, he has done all that and is still going, he hasn't shoved anyone, thrown a tantrum of driven into anyone under safety car.

He is a millionaire by virtue of his performances.

An insecure driver or a valid question? He is in a team where they can communicate freely, isn't that what you are seeing? Rather than a team with dishonest veiled preferences.

He may retire in the next few years but you imply he is ducking the challenge, I think it is the opposite personally.

Verstappen is quick, no doubt but he has it all to prove, Hamilton has already done all that, its just the margin that is as yet unclear.

This is the sad way of the world nowadays. Someone has accomplished so much and is on the cusp of breaking the sport's most revered records and you have some newer fans who are in a rush to prop up an unproven youngster above him. They don't want to do it by having them face off against each other on track in a championship battle. They want to do it with words in a forum on the internet. Hamilton has been there and done that. He's faced top tier drivers in identical machinery and bested them. He's come back from big points margins and won championships. He's dealt with adversity and pressure and come out on top. To question his mental toughness while just giving Verstappen a pass (when he has NOT proven himself in this regard) is laughable.

The idea that Max can be considered to be on Hamilton's level now is a bit silly to me. A championship challenge can fizzle out on the strength of a few bad results and have we ever seen Max have a season without that? To try to suggest that he's on Hamilton's level based on one impressive win in Austria just shows how imbalanced the thinking around the sport has become. People are just prisoners of the moment. We go from the sport being in a state of crisis after France to everything being so amazing after Austria. People's minds are so fickle these days that it's scary. A byproduct of the internet age I suppose.

In order to go along with this train of thought, we are basically supposed to perceive Hamilton's 6 wins this year as completely inconsequential. Essentially, they mean nothing (they would have to for you to say that he's not driver of the year so far). In fact, you see this mindset in a lot of posts in this thread. The mindset that Verstappen's "potential" results in some hypothetical situation are more important than Hamilton's actual results in the real world. I suppose it's a good sign for Lewis. The last time I saw this kind of thinking it was with Michael Schumacher. I remember around 2005-2006 when people started to say that Kimi was the fastest man in F1 and that he would beat Michael in the same car. It's funny how fans predictably turn against the most dominant performers...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:10 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:

Hamilton is of course the better driver. He already has won those championships. I do however agree that the calm Hamilton might get a little frusty when he get's a challenge and a driver is beating him. We've seen it before: ignoring the other driver by not even talking, saying there might be some trust issues with the team etc. In a way very similar to Alonso by creating an unpleasant atmosphere. But hey, they are racing and that's passion. Sometimes they act like childs. Millionaire childs that is but it's the same behavior.

I feel Hamilton is a unsecure driver who needs a lot of help from the team when things don't go his way. Talking to his enhineer: "Why did you gave me those tyres" and then losing all hope like he doesn't care anymore and his engineer needs to help him by saying he can do this, that he is the best etc.


You sound as though you believe Hamilton is at the beginning of his career, he has done all that and is still going, he hasn't shoved anyone, thrown a tantrum of driven into anyone under safety car.

He is a millionaire by virtue of his performances.

An insecure driver or a valid question? He is in a team where they can communicate freely, isn't that what you are seeing? Rather than a team with dishonest veiled preferences.

He may retire in the next few years but you imply he is ducking the challenge, I think it is the opposite personally.

Verstappen is quick, no doubt but he has it all to prove, Hamilton has already done all that, its just the margin that is as yet unclear.

This is the sad way of the world nowadays. Someone has accomplished so much and is on the cusp of breaking the sport's most revered records and you have some newer fans who are in a rush to prop up an unproven youngster above him. They don't want to do it by having them face off against each other on track in a championship battle. They want to do it with words in a forum on the internet. Hamilton has been there and done that. He's faced top tier drivers in identical machinery and bested them. He's come back from big points margins and won championships. He's dealt with adversity and pressure and come out on top. To question his mental toughness while just giving Verstappen a pass (when he has NOT proven himself in this regard) is laughable.

The idea that Max can be considered to be on Hamilton's level now is a bit silly to me. A championship challenge can fizzle out on the strength of a few bad results and have we ever seen Max have a season without that? To try to suggest that he's on Hamilton's level based on one impressive win in Austria just shows how imbalanced the thinking around the sport has become. People are just prisoners of the moment. We go from the sport being in a state of crisis after France to everything being so amazing after Austria. People's minds are so fickle these days that it's scary. A byproduct of the internet age I suppose.

In order to go along with this train of thought, we are basically supposed to perceive Hamilton's 6 wins this year as completely inconsequential. Essentially, they mean nothing (they would have to for you to say that he's not driver of the year so far). In fact, you see this mindset in a lot of posts in this thread. The mindset that Verstappen's "potential" results in some hypothetical situation are more important than Hamilton's actual results in the real world. I suppose it's a good sign for Lewis. The last time I saw this kind of thinking it was with Michael Schumacher. I remember around 2005-2006 when people started to say that Kimi was the fastest man in F1 and that he would beat Michael in the same car. It's funny how fans predictably turn against the most dominant performers...


I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Another good comparison would be Senna/Schumacher. In early 1994 Senna had achieved everything while Schumacher achieved nothing in comparison, yet I don’t think that Senna was clearly the better driver anymore by that point either.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:22 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Another good comparison would be Senna/Schumacher. In early 1994 Senna had achieved everything while Schumacher achieved nothing in comparison, yet I don’t think that Senna was clearly the better driver anymore by that point either.


Yes I thought of that one as well. Basically this happens in every generation in any sport. I don't know why people find something that is almost inevitable so offensive?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

There are so many people on this thread who can’t differentiate between greatness and current ability. Either that, or they simply don’t want to because it is the crux of their argument.

Vettel has also clearly achieved a lot more than Verstappen. Does anyone still think Vettel is the better driver in 2019?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:31 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

There are so many people on this thread who can’t differentiate between greatness and current ability. Either that, or they simply don’t want to because it is the crux of their argument.

Vettel has also clearly achieved a lot more than Verstappen. Does anyone still think Vettel is the better driver in 2019?


:thumbup:

Pretty much exactly what I said earlier in the thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Posts: 6871
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:

Hamilton is of course the better driver. He already has won those championships. I do however agree that the calm Hamilton might get a little frusty when he get's a challenge and a driver is beating him. We've seen it before: ignoring the other driver by not even talking, saying there might be some trust issues with the team etc. In a way very similar to Alonso by creating an unpleasant atmosphere. But hey, they are racing and that's passion. Sometimes they act like childs. Millionaire childs that is but it's the same behavior.

I feel Hamilton is a unsecure driver who needs a lot of help from the team when things don't go his way. Talking to his enhineer: "Why did you gave me those tyres" and then losing all hope like he doesn't care anymore and his engineer needs to help him by saying he can do this, that he is the best etc.


You sound as though you believe Hamilton is at the beginning of his career, he has done all that and is still going, he hasn't shoved anyone, thrown a tantrum of driven into anyone under safety car.

He is a millionaire by virtue of his performances.

An insecure driver or a valid question? He is in a team where they can communicate freely, isn't that what you are seeing? Rather than a team with dishonest veiled preferences.

He may retire in the next few years but you imply he is ducking the challenge, I think it is the opposite personally.

Verstappen is quick, no doubt but he has it all to prove, Hamilton has already done all that, its just the margin that is as yet unclear.

This is the sad way of the world nowadays. Someone has accomplished so much and is on the cusp of breaking the sport's most revered records and you have some newer fans who are in a rush to prop up an unproven youngster above him. They don't want to do it by having them face off against each other on track in a championship battle. They want to do it with words in a forum on the internet. Hamilton has been there and done that. He's faced top tier drivers in identical machinery and bested them. He's come back from big points margins and won championships. He's dealt with adversity and pressure and come out on top. To question his mental toughness while just giving Verstappen a pass (when he has NOT proven himself in this regard) is laughable.

The idea that Max can be considered to be on Hamilton's level now is a bit silly to me. A championship challenge can fizzle out on the strength of a few bad results and have we ever seen Max have a season without that? To try to suggest that he's on Hamilton's level based on one impressive win in Austria just shows how imbalanced the thinking around the sport has become. People are just prisoners of the moment. We go from the sport being in a state of crisis after France to everything being so amazing after Austria. People's minds are so fickle these days that it's scary. A byproduct of the internet age I suppose.

In order to go along with this train of thought, we are basically supposed to perceive Hamilton's 6 wins this year as completely inconsequential. Essentially, they mean nothing (they would have to for you to say that he's not driver of the year so far). In fact, you see this mindset in a lot of posts in this thread. The mindset that Verstappen's "potential" results in some hypothetical situation are more important than Hamilton's actual results in the real world. I suppose it's a good sign for Lewis. The last time I saw this kind of thinking it was with Michael Schumacher. I remember around 2005-2006 when people started to say that Kimi was the fastest man in F1 and that he would beat Michael in the same car. It's funny how fans predictably turn against the most dominant performers...


I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

Serena has reached a point where she is no longer at the peak of her game. She is 37 years old in a sport traditionally dominated by people in their 20s and she has recently given birth to a child. Serena at her peak was easily better than any of the players who might be better than her now.

To my eyes, I don't think Hamilton is diminished in any meaningful way. In fact, I'd say that 2018 was his best season in F1 overall. So I find your thinking to be strange as you have made a very poor comparison here. To suggest that we are reaching a crossover point, you would have to suggest that Lewis is diminishing or that you can somehow claim that Max has surpassed Lewis's level while still in his prime. For me, both of those claims are ridiculous. I don't think Lewis has diminished and I don't think Max has done nearly enough to claim he's on Lewis's level, let alone beyond it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Posts: 6871
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

There are so many people on this thread who can’t differentiate between greatness and current ability. Either that, or they simply don’t want to because it is the crux of their argument.

Vettel has also clearly achieved a lot more than Verstappen. Does anyone still think Vettel is the better driver in 2019?

No it's actually just that not everyone is convinced that besting Pierre Gasly by a big margin is a particularly great achievement. Pierre is an unknown quantity in F1 and all reports from Red bull suggest that his performance this year is below expectations and they cannot understand why. So I ask myself; if Daniel were still on the team and if reliability were equal; would Max still appear to be so impressive? The answer is; I don't know but it's doubtful. When you have a weak teammate who is struggling, it has the effect of really accenting your results but what would happen if you swapped Gasly for Bottas? Hamilton would probably have won 8 out of the 9 races so far and Max would have had far more competition from his teammate.

Your notion that Max is currently performing better is extremely flimsy. His teammate is performing MUCH worse and his results are much worse. Yes, of course the Mercedes is the class of the field and has been the strongest package this year overall but it seems to me that you are trying to use the superior performance of Bottas relative to Gasly to prop up Max and I'm not buying it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:

Hamilton is of course the better driver. He already has won those championships. I do however agree that the calm Hamilton might get a little frusty when he get's a challenge and a driver is beating him. We've seen it before: ignoring the other driver by not even talking, saying there might be some trust issues with the team etc. In a way very similar to Alonso by creating an unpleasant atmosphere. But hey, they are racing and that's passion. Sometimes they act like childs. Millionaire childs that is but it's the same behavior.

I feel Hamilton is a unsecure driver who needs a lot of help from the team when things don't go his way. Talking to his enhineer: "Why did you gave me those tyres" and then losing all hope like he doesn't care anymore and his engineer needs to help him by saying he can do this, that he is the best etc.


You sound as though you believe Hamilton is at the beginning of his career, he has done all that and is still going, he hasn't shoved anyone, thrown a tantrum of driven into anyone under safety car.

He is a millionaire by virtue of his performances.

An insecure driver or a valid question? He is in a team where they can communicate freely, isn't that what you are seeing? Rather than a team with dishonest veiled preferences.

He may retire in the next few years but you imply he is ducking the challenge, I think it is the opposite personally.

Verstappen is quick, no doubt but he has it all to prove, Hamilton has already done all that, its just the margin that is as yet unclear.

This is the sad way of the world nowadays. Someone has accomplished so much and is on the cusp of breaking the sport's most revered records and you have some newer fans who are in a rush to prop up an unproven youngster above him. They don't want to do it by having them face off against each other on track in a championship battle. They want to do it with words in a forum on the internet. Hamilton has been there and done that. He's faced top tier drivers in identical machinery and bested them. He's come back from big points margins and won championships. He's dealt with adversity and pressure and come out on top. To question his mental toughness while just giving Verstappen a pass (when he has NOT proven himself in this regard) is laughable.

The idea that Max can be considered to be on Hamilton's level now is a bit silly to me. A championship challenge can fizzle out on the strength of a few bad results and have we ever seen Max have a season without that? To try to suggest that he's on Hamilton's level based on one impressive win in Austria just shows how imbalanced the thinking around the sport has become. People are just prisoners of the moment. We go from the sport being in a state of crisis after France to everything being so amazing after Austria. People's minds are so fickle these days that it's scary. A byproduct of the internet age I suppose.

In order to go along with this train of thought, we are basically supposed to perceive Hamilton's 6 wins this year as completely inconsequential. Essentially, they mean nothing (they would have to for you to say that he's not driver of the year so far). In fact, you see this mindset in a lot of posts in this thread. The mindset that Verstappen's "potential" results in some hypothetical situation are more important than Hamilton's actual results in the real world. I suppose it's a good sign for Lewis. The last time I saw this kind of thinking it was with Michael Schumacher. I remember around 2005-2006 when people started to say that Kimi was the fastest man in F1 and that he would beat Michael in the same car. It's funny how fans predictably turn against the most dominant performers...


I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

Serena has reached a point where she is no longer at the peak of her game. She is 37 years old in a sport traditionally dominated by people in their 20s and she has recently given birth to a child. Serena at her peak was easily better than any of the players who might be better than her now.

To my eyes, I don't think Hamilton is diminished in any meaningful way. In fact, I'd say that 2018 was his best season in F1 overall. So I find your thinking to be strange as you have made a very poor comparison here. To suggest that we are reaching a crossover point, you would have to suggest that Lewis is diminishing or that you can somehow claim that Max has surpassed Lewis's level while still in his prime. For me, both of those claims are ridiculous. I don't think Lewis has diminished and I don't think Max has done nearly enough to claim he's on Lewis's level, let alone beyond it.


Ok so what about the Schumacher/Alonso in 05 comparison or Senna/Schumacher in 94? Maybe better comparisons?

Max doesn't need to do anything other than drive as well as Lewis right now to claim he is as good as Lewis at the moment.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This is the sad way of the world nowadays. Someone has accomplished so much and is on the cusp of breaking the sport's most revered records and you have some newer fans who are in a rush to prop up an unproven youngster above him. They don't want to do it by having them face off against each other on track in a championship battle. They want to do it with words in a forum on the internet. Hamilton has been there and done that. He's faced top tier drivers in identical machinery and bested them. He's come back from big points margins and won championships. He's dealt with adversity and pressure and come out on top. To question his mental toughness while just giving Verstappen a pass (when he has NOT proven himself in this regard) is laughable.

The idea that Max can be considered to be on Hamilton's level now is a bit silly to me. A championship challenge can fizzle out on the strength of a few bad results and have we ever seen Max have a season without that? To try to suggest that he's on Hamilton's level based on one impressive win in Austria just shows how imbalanced the thinking around the sport has become. People are just prisoners of the moment. We go from the sport being in a state of crisis after France to everything being so amazing after Austria. People's minds are so fickle these days that it's scary. A byproduct of the internet age I suppose.

In order to go along with this train of thought, we are basically supposed to perceive Hamilton's 6 wins this year as completely inconsequential. Essentially, they mean nothing (they would have to for you to say that he's not driver of the year so far). In fact, you see this mindset in a lot of posts in this thread. The mindset that Verstappen's "potential" results in some hypothetical situation are more important than Hamilton's actual results in the real world. I suppose it's a good sign for Lewis. The last time I saw this kind of thinking it was with Michael Schumacher. I remember around 2005-2006 when people started to say that Kimi was the fastest man in F1 and that he would beat Michael in the same car. It's funny how fans predictably turn against the most dominant performers...


I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

Serena has reached a point where she is no longer at the peak of her game. She is 37 years old in a sport traditionally dominated by people in their 20s and she has recently given birth to a child. Serena at her peak was easily better than any of the players who might be better than her now.

To my eyes, I don't think Hamilton is diminished in any meaningful way. In fact, I'd say that 2018 was his best season in F1 overall. So I find your thinking to be strange as you have made a very poor comparison here. To suggest that we are reaching a crossover point, you would have to suggest that Lewis is diminishing or that you can somehow claim that Max has surpassed Lewis's level while still in his prime. For me, both of those claims are ridiculous. I don't think Lewis has diminished and I don't think Max has done nearly enough to claim he's on Lewis's level, let alone beyond it.


Ok so what about the Schumacher/Alonso in 05 comparison or Senna/Schumacher in 94? Maybe better comparisons?

Max doesn't need to do anything other than drive as well as Lewis right now to claim he is as good as Lewis at the moment.

Well let's look at those examples. Alonso in 2005 actually won the championship against the super fast McLaren and Kimi Raikkonen. Schumacher also took his first title in 94' with stiff competition from Damon Hill. Senna also died in 94' which basically forces you to pass the torch.

By comparison, today, Max is not really involved in the championship battle nor is he bench-marked against a Hamilton or a Vettel in identical machinery to make any claim about his performance relative to theirs. Hamilton is still in F1, still at the top of his game and still dominating the championship in terms of wins and points. So I don't think your comparison holds up Mikey. At some point, Hamilton will diminish from his prime and at some point, Max will likely become the best driver in F1 but that point is not here yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This is the sad way of the world nowadays. Someone has accomplished so much and is on the cusp of breaking the sport's most revered records and you have some newer fans who are in a rush to prop up an unproven youngster above him. They don't want to do it by having them face off against each other on track in a championship battle. They want to do it with words in a forum on the internet. Hamilton has been there and done that. He's faced top tier drivers in identical machinery and bested them. He's come back from big points margins and won championships. He's dealt with adversity and pressure and come out on top. To question his mental toughness while just giving Verstappen a pass (when he has NOT proven himself in this regard) is laughable.

The idea that Max can be considered to be on Hamilton's level now is a bit silly to me. A championship challenge can fizzle out on the strength of a few bad results and have we ever seen Max have a season without that? To try to suggest that he's on Hamilton's level based on one impressive win in Austria just shows how imbalanced the thinking around the sport has become. People are just prisoners of the moment. We go from the sport being in a state of crisis after France to everything being so amazing after Austria. People's minds are so fickle these days that it's scary. A byproduct of the internet age I suppose.

In order to go along with this train of thought, we are basically supposed to perceive Hamilton's 6 wins this year as completely inconsequential. Essentially, they mean nothing (they would have to for you to say that he's not driver of the year so far). In fact, you see this mindset in a lot of posts in this thread. The mindset that Verstappen's "potential" results in some hypothetical situation are more important than Hamilton's actual results in the real world. I suppose it's a good sign for Lewis. The last time I saw this kind of thinking it was with Michael Schumacher. I remember around 2005-2006 when people started to say that Kimi was the fastest man in F1 and that he would beat Michael in the same car. It's funny how fans predictably turn against the most dominant performers...


I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

Serena has reached a point where she is no longer at the peak of her game. She is 37 years old in a sport traditionally dominated by people in their 20s and she has recently given birth to a child. Serena at her peak was easily better than any of the players who might be better than her now.

To my eyes, I don't think Hamilton is diminished in any meaningful way. In fact, I'd say that 2018 was his best season in F1 overall. So I find your thinking to be strange as you have made a very poor comparison here. To suggest that we are reaching a crossover point, you would have to suggest that Lewis is diminishing or that you can somehow claim that Max has surpassed Lewis's level while still in his prime. For me, both of those claims are ridiculous. I don't think Lewis has diminished and I don't think Max has done nearly enough to claim he's on Lewis's level, let alone beyond it.


Ok so what about the Schumacher/Alonso in 05 comparison or Senna/Schumacher in 94? Maybe better comparisons?

Max doesn't need to do anything other than drive as well as Lewis right now to claim he is as good as Lewis at the moment.

Well let's look at those examples. Alonso in 2005 actually won the championship against the super fast McLaren and Kimi Raikkonen. Schumacher also took his first title in 94' with stiff competition from Damon Hill. Senna also died in 94' which basically forces you to pass the torch.

By comparison, today, Max is not really involved in the championship battle nor is he bench-marked against a Hamilton or a Vettel in identical machinery to make any claim about his performance relative to theirs. Hamilton is still in F1, still at the top of his game and still dominating the championship in terms of wins and points. So I don't think your comparison holds up Mikey. At some point, Hamilton will diminish from his prime and at some point, Max will likely become the best driver in F1 but that point is not here yet.


I meant at the beginning of those seasons. Like how they were driving over the first half dozen races. At that point they had achieved nothing.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I find your way of thinking strange. Serena Williams has achieved a huge amount in tennis compared to every other player in the women's game but does that mean she is still the best player right now? Or that she should be favourite going into every tournament?

There is very likely to be a crossover point where the someone of the next generation will become as good as Hamilton despite of Hamilton having achieved far more in the sport.

You use the Kimi/Schumacher comparison when perhaps the Alonso/Schumacher comparison would be better. In 2005 Alonso had achieved nothing and Schumacher everything but I don't think Schumacher was clearly the better driver at that point in time.

It is possible we are reaching that stage with Hamilton and Verstappen.

Serena has reached a point where she is no longer at the peak of her game. She is 37 years old in a sport traditionally dominated by people in their 20s and she has recently given birth to a child. Serena at her peak was easily better than any of the players who might be better than her now.

To my eyes, I don't think Hamilton is diminished in any meaningful way. In fact, I'd say that 2018 was his best season in F1 overall. So I find your thinking to be strange as you have made a very poor comparison here. To suggest that we are reaching a crossover point, you would have to suggest that Lewis is diminishing or that you can somehow claim that Max has surpassed Lewis's level while still in his prime. For me, both of those claims are ridiculous. I don't think Lewis has diminished and I don't think Max has done nearly enough to claim he's on Lewis's level, let alone beyond it.


Ok so what about the Schumacher/Alonso in 05 comparison or Senna/Schumacher in 94? Maybe better comparisons?

Max doesn't need to do anything other than drive as well as Lewis right now to claim he is as good as Lewis at the moment.

Well let's look at those examples. Alonso in 2005 actually won the championship against the super fast McLaren and Kimi Raikkonen. Schumacher also took his first title in 94' with stiff competition from Damon Hill. Senna also died in 94' which basically forces you to pass the torch.

By comparison, today, Max is not really involved in the championship battle nor is he bench-marked against a Hamilton or a Vettel in identical machinery to make any claim about his performance relative to theirs. Hamilton is still in F1, still at the top of his game and still dominating the championship in terms of wins and points. So I don't think your comparison holds up Mikey. At some point, Hamilton will diminish from his prime and at some point, Max will likely become the best driver in F1 but that point is not here yet.


I meant at the beginning of those seasons. Like how they were driving over the first half dozen races. At that point they had achieved nothing.

Again, the comparison to this year doesn't hold up. Senna had 3 straight DNFs to start 94" while Michael won the first 4 races. Michael and Ferrari were nowhere in 05' while Alonso won 3 of the first 4 races. Hamilton is dominating the championship this year! I struggle to understand why you and Kingvoid seem to view that as impertinent.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:19 pm 
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The fact that Verstappen has not been in a WDC fight yet has nothing to do with him. Red Bull just haven’t been contenders for anything other than the odd victory in this hybrid era.

You can only judge a driver by how good he drives in the situation he finds himself in, and Verstappen has been amazing.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
The fact that Verstappen has not been in a WDC fight yet has nothing to do with him. Red Bull just haven’t been contenders for anything other than the odd victory in this hybrid era.

You can only judge a driver by how good he drives in the situation he finds himself in, and Verstappen has been amazing.

I agree that his inability to fight for the title has not been his fault and I agree that he has been great but that's not all you're saying. You are claiming that he's better than someone who has fought for the title and won it many times over. Even if you factor out car performance, Max did not perform well enough in 2018 to win the championship. The collisions and errors in the first few races alone would have taken him out of contention. He has never put together a WDC-caliber season from start to finish and you want to just give him credit for it anyway. You are overreaching.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:47 pm 
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Hamilton was in a different class to Verstappen taking the whole of 2018 into consideration. Perhaps Max will now put a full season together. He's had an excellent run since Monaco 2018, so has kept it up for over a year now. Basically, he's only just very recently put himself in the discussion as arguably the best driver on the grid, but the benefit of the doubt should go to Hamilton as far as I'm concerned.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:47 pm 
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I agree that Verstappen was error prone in 2018. However, he was actually very clean in 2017 (just horrendously unlucky) and has been very clean in 2019.

I believe that both 2017 Max and 2019 Max could have won the WDC with the right car.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:59 pm 
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Strange comment!

You could say that about Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton and possibly even Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:22 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I agree that Verstappen was error prone in 2018. However, he was actually very clean in 2017 (just horrendously unlucky) and has been very clean in 2019.

I believe that both 2017 Max and 2019 Max could have won the WDC with the right car.

2017? When he crashed out on the opening lap in 3 races? When he took out his teammate in Hungary? Again, you are overreaching big time.

This year, so far, Max is performing consistently to a very high level. He has been very impressive in my opinion and has shown greater maturity than in the past. He has largely avoided mistakes and is having a WDC-caliber campaign without the WDC-caliber car. Let's see if he can keep it up but make no mistake, this is the first year that he's had to this standard.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I agree that Verstappen was error prone in 2018. However, he was actually very clean in 2017 (just horrendously unlucky) and has been very clean in 2019.

I believe that both 2017 Max and 2019 Max could have won the WDC with the right car.

2017? When he crashed out on the opening lap in 3 races? When he took out his teammate in Hungary? Again, you are overreaching big time.

Hungary was his only mistake all season.

He was taken out from behind in Austria, and Singapore was not his fault either.

When his car was working, he was beating Ricciardo on a consistent basis.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:32 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I agree that Verstappen was error prone in 2018. However, he was actually very clean in 2017 (just horrendously unlucky) and has been very clean in 2019.

I believe that both 2017 Max and 2019 Max could have won the WDC with the right car.

2017? When he crashed out on the opening lap in 3 races? When he took out his teammate in Hungary? Again, you are overreaching big time.

Hungary was his only mistake all season.

He was taken out from behind in Austria, and Singapore was not his fault either.

When his car was working, he was beating Ricciardo on a consistent basis.

Sorry but that's just not true. He crashed out on the opening lap in Spain too (and that's just what i can remember off the top of my head) and he made other errors throughout the season. It's interesting that you feel the need to embelish...Again, Max is having by far his best season in terms of consistency. Neither 2017 nor 2018 can compare when viewed as a whole.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Spain was Bottas’ fault. Verstappen did nothing but try a fair move around the outside, leave enough space on the inside, and then got hit by Kimi who was hit by an out-of-control Bottas.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I agree that Verstappen was error prone in 2018. However, he was actually very clean in 2017 (just horrendously unlucky) and has been very clean in 2019.

I believe that both 2017 Max and 2019 Max could have won the WDC with the right car.

2017? When he crashed out on the opening lap in 3 races? When he took out his teammate in Hungary? Again, you are overreaching big time.

Hungary was his only mistake all season.

He was taken out from behind in Austria, and Singapore was not his fault either.

When his car was working, he was beating Ricciardo on a consistent basis.

Sorry but that's just not true. He crashed out on the opening lap in Spain too (and that's just what i can remember off the top of my head) and he made other errors throughout the season. It's interesting that you feel the need to embelish...Again, Max is having by far his best season in terms of consistency. Neither 2017 nor 2018 can compare when viewed as a whole.


Come on, in Spain Bottas and Kimi crashed into each other and bounced into Max, Austria he was hit from behind by Kvyat and Singapore he got sandwiched by the Ferrari's. None of those were his fault.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:27 pm 
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Nonetheless, I'd expect Max-2019 to beat Max-2017 comfortably enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:12 pm 
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So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:30 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


It's not giving him a pass. It's not blaming him for things they weren't his fault. And I don't think you can accuse of embellishing whilst you are blaming Verstappen for others running into the back of him to try and make your point stronger.

I actually agree with what you're saying. 2019 has been better for 2017 for Max. The point is that Max wasn't making a huge amount of mistakes in 2017. He had a bad spell in the first half of 2018 for sure.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:45 pm 
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To blame Verstappen for the collisions in Spain, Austria and Singapore 2017 is just as idiotic as blaming Hamilton for his reliability problems in 2016. There are some things that are just not in a drivers control.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Nonetheless, I'd expect Max-2019 to beat Max-2017 comfortably enough.

I’ve pointed this out before, but I actually called Verstappen the fastest driver in F1 as early as 2017.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


It's not giving him a pass. It's not blaming him for things they weren't his fault. And I don't think you can accuse of embellishing whilst you are blaming Verstappen for others running into the back of him to try and make your point stronger.

I actually agree with what you're saying. 2019 has been better for 2017 for Max. The point is that Max wasn't making a huge amount of mistakes in 2017. He had a bad spell in the first half of 2018 for sure.

I thought your original point was that we are at some kind of crossover point and that Max has surpassed Hamilton as the best driver in F1. Now it seems you are suggesting that Max's performance level peaked in 2017 and that he is not substantially better today than he was back then. I have to strongly disagree with that and I would also suggest that that weakens your crossover argument (an already flimsy argument) substantially.

With regards to 2017, the crashes on lap one that year other than Hungary were not primarily his fault. On that, we agree although I would point out that he was going for aggressive moves in some of them and the moves didn't come off. That can happen and it doesn't always have to be your fault. Going around the outside three wide into the first corner is risky and understanding risk vs reward is important. I guess I can't help but notice the double standard. I didn't see Kingvoid defending Lewis for the British GP first lap last year where he was punted off by Raikkonen. In fact, despite the fact that Lewis came back through the field to finish second, I'm pretty sure he gave DotD to Vettel while tripping over himself to downplay Hamilton's comeback drive.

We can agree to disagree with the idea that Max was as good in 2017 as he is in 2019. On the original issue of whether Max is the top driver in F1; I'd simply have to say that he isn't, so long as you actually hold him to the same standard as you hold Lewis to. Max has not done anything to establish that he's a better driver than Lewis nor has he won any of the empirical accolades (championships) and that's what he will have to do if he wants that title. An exciting win here and there is just not enough to do it.

It's disappointing to hear this from you especially Mikey, who would not acknowledge Hamilton as the best driver in F1 no matter what he did for so many years; basically giving the accolade to Alonso and claiming Hamilton can't prove himself better because of Alonso's car (despite the fact that Hamilton had already beaten him as a teammate). Your stubbornness on that seems to have been thrown out the window completely as you are willing to hand Max that title before he has achieved anything even remotely similar and without having ever bench-marked himself against Hamilton in any way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:29 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


It's not giving him a pass. It's not blaming him for things they weren't his fault. And I don't think you can accuse of embellishing whilst you are blaming Verstappen for others running into the back of him to try and make your point stronger.

I actually agree with what you're saying. 2019 has been better for 2017 for Max. The point is that Max wasn't making a huge amount of mistakes in 2017. He had a bad spell in the first half of 2018 for sure.

I thought your original point was that we are at some kind of crossover point and that Max has surpassed Hamilton as the best driver in F1. Now it seems you are suggesting that Max's performance level peaked in 2017 and that he is not substantially better today than he was back then. I have to strongly disagree with that and I would also suggest that that weakens your crossover argument (an already flimsy argument) substantially.

With regards to 2017, the crashes on lap one that year other than Hungary were not primarily his fault. On that, we agree although I would point out that he was going for aggressive moves in some of them and the moves didn't come off. That can happen and it doesn't always have to be your fault. Going around the outside three wide into the first corner is risky and understanding risk vs reward is important. I guess I can't help but notice the double standard. I didn't see Kingvoid defending Lewis for the British GP first lap last year where he was punted off by Raikkonen. In fact, despite the fact that Lewis came back through the field to finish second, I'm pretty sure he gave DotD to Vettel while tripping over himself to downplay Hamilton's comeback drive.

We can agree to disagree with the idea that Max was as good in 2017 as he is in 2019. On the original issue of whether Max is the top driver in F1; I'd simply have to say that he isn't, so long as you actually hold him to the same standard as you hold Lewis to. Max has not done anything to establish that he's a better driver than Lewis nor has he won any of the empirical accolades (championships) and that's what he will have to do if he wants that title. An exciting win here and there is just not enough to do it.

It's disappointing to hear this from you especially Mikey, who would not acknowledge Hamilton as the best driver in F1 no matter what he did for so many years; basically giving the accolade to Alonso and claiming Hamilton can't prove himself better because of Alonso's car (despite the fact that Hamilton had already beaten him as a teammate). Your stubbornness on that seems to have been thrown out the window completely as you are willing to hand Max that title before he has achieved anything even remotely similar and without having ever bench-marked himself against Hamilton in any way.


Erm, I do acknowledge Hamilton as the best driver in F1. Hamilton is the best driver in F1 IMO. He is one of the best of all time and possibly the best at risk managing a championship I've ever seen.

And surely I am being consistent by trying to discount the car deficit when evaluating Verstappen. Just like I did for Alonso.

All I've said basically is that the idea Verstappen can't possibly be as good as Hamilton or it can't even been talked about because Verstappen is yet to achieve anything is something I find quite strange. I think it's almost inevitable there will become a time when Verstappen becomes as good as Hamilton and will have achieved far less in the sport when that happens.


It happens every generation in every sport. I don't even see how that can be remotely controversial.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


It's not giving him a pass. It's not blaming him for things they weren't his fault. And I don't think you can accuse of embellishing whilst you are blaming Verstappen for others running into the back of him to try and make your point stronger.

I actually agree with what you're saying. 2019 has been better for 2017 for Max. The point is that Max wasn't making a huge amount of mistakes in 2017. He had a bad spell in the first half of 2018 for sure.

I thought your original point was that we are at some kind of crossover point and that Max has surpassed Hamilton as the best driver in F1. Now it seems you are suggesting that Max's performance level peaked in 2017 and that he is not substantially better today than he was back then. I have to strongly disagree with that and I would also suggest that that weakens your crossover argument (an already flimsy argument) substantially.

With regards to 2017, the crashes on lap one that year other than Hungary were not primarily his fault. On that, we agree although I would point out that he was going for aggressive moves in some of them and the moves didn't come off. That can happen and it doesn't always have to be your fault. Going around the outside three wide into the first corner is risky and understanding risk vs reward is important. I guess I can't help but notice the double standard. I didn't see Kingvoid defending Lewis for the British GP first lap last year where he was punted off by Raikkonen. In fact, despite the fact that Lewis came back through the field to finish second, I'm pretty sure he gave DotD to Vettel while tripping over himself to downplay Hamilton's comeback drive.

We can agree to disagree with the idea that Max was as good in 2017 as he is in 2019. On the original issue of whether Max is the top driver in F1; I'd simply have to say that he isn't, so long as you actually hold him to the same standard as you hold Lewis to. Max has not done anything to establish that he's a better driver than Lewis nor has he won any of the empirical accolades (championships) and that's what he will have to do if he wants that title. An exciting win here and there is just not enough to do it.

It's disappointing to hear this from you especially Mikey, who would not acknowledge Hamilton as the best driver in F1 no matter what he did for so many years; basically giving the accolade to Alonso and claiming Hamilton can't prove himself better because of Alonso's car (despite the fact that Hamilton had already beaten him as a teammate). Your stubbornness on that seems to have been thrown out the window completely as you are willing to hand Max that title before he has achieved anything even remotely similar and without having ever bench-marked himself against Hamilton in any way.


Erm, I do acknowledge Hamilton as the best driver in F1. Hamilton is the best driver in F1 IMO. He is one of the best of all time and possibly the best at risk managing a championship I've ever seen.

And surely I am being consistent by trying to discount the car deficit when evaluating Verstappen. Just like I did for Alonso.

All I've said basically is that the idea Verstappen can't possibly be as good as Hamilton or it can't even been talked about because Verstappen is yet to achieve anything is something I find quite strange. I think it's almost inevitable there will become a time when Verstappen becomes as good as Hamilton and will have achieved far less in the sport when that happens.


It happens every generation in every sport. I don't even see how that can be remotely controversial.

It's not controversial to say that it will happen at some point. It's controversial to say that it has already happened when there is a lack of empirical support; when Hamilton is still dominating the sport and when Verstappen has yet to even properly be involved in a championship battle. Anytime Hamilton and Max have come across each other on track in F1, it has been with Max having nothing to lose and Hamilton having a championship to think about. They have never actually raced on the same level in F1. Anyway, you have now clarified that you are not saying that so we don't need to belabor the point.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Another good comparison would be Senna/Schumacher. In early 1994 Senna had achieved everything while Schumacher achieved nothing in comparison, yet I don’t think that Senna was clearly the better driver anymore by that point either.


Yes I thought of that one as well. Basically this happens in every generation in any sport. I don't know why people find something that is almost inevitable so offensive?


But on what basis can you actually say that verstappen is currently better than Hamilton? Hamilton has just come off the back of a WDC win against a 4x WDC in an inferior car. Meanwhile verstappen has achieved about 3 races without a crash, all because he won a race that he cocked up the start in to begin with - if he was racing against Hamilton and had a start like that in Austria do you really think he'd have won the race??

I'm not saying that verstappen isn't an on form driver, he is driving well, but to say he is driving like an infallible all conquering machine is really really absurd. He is being flattered by gasly who can't get his fairy cakes together at red bull, if he was against Hamilton challenging for the title at this point I would be on firm ground saying he would be trailing in points

He is driving really well but he is not on WDC winning form


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:57 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Another good comparison would be Senna/Schumacher. In early 1994 Senna had achieved everything while Schumacher achieved nothing in comparison, yet I don’t think that Senna was clearly the better driver anymore by that point either.


Yes I thought of that one as well. Basically this happens in every generation in any sport. I don't know why people find something that is almost inevitable so offensive?


But on what basis can you actually say that verstappen is currently better than Hamilton? Hamilton has just come off the back of a WDC win against a 4x WDC in an inferior car. Meanwhile verstappen has achieved about 3 races without a crash, all because he won a race that he cocked up the start in to begin with - if he was racing against Hamilton and had a start like that in Austria do you really think he'd have won the race??

I'm not saying that verstappen isn't an on form driver, he is driving well, but to say he is driving like an infallible all conquering machine is really really absurd. He is being flattered by gasly who can't get his fairy cakes together at red bull, if he was against Hamilton challenging for the title at this point I would be on firm ground saying he would be trailing in points

He is driving really well but he is not on WDC winning form


Well I disagree with that. Give him Hamilton's Mercedes and he would be beating Bottas and leading the WDC IMO.

There have been plenty of WDC's won by drivers not driving as well as Verstappen is at the moment.

I don't think he is better than Lewis. I think it's possible he is driving better than him currently.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Another good comparison would be Senna/Schumacher. In early 1994 Senna had achieved everything while Schumacher achieved nothing in comparison, yet I don’t think that Senna was clearly the better driver anymore by that point either.


Yes I thought of that one as well. Basically this happens in every generation in any sport. I don't know why people find something that is almost inevitable so offensive?


But on what basis can you actually say that verstappen is currently better than Hamilton? Hamilton has just come off the back of a WDC win against a 4x WDC in an inferior car. Meanwhile verstappen has achieved about 3 races without a crash, all because he won a race that he cocked up the start in to begin with - if he was racing against Hamilton and had a start like that in Austria do you really think he'd have won the race??

I'm not saying that verstappen isn't an on form driver, he is driving well, but to say he is driving like an infallible all conquering machine is really really absurd. He is being flattered by gasly who can't get his fairy cakes together at red bull, if he was against Hamilton challenging for the title at this point I would be on firm ground saying he would be trailing in points

He is driving really well but he is not on WDC winning form


Well I disagree with that. Give him Hamilton's Mercedes and he would be beating Bottas and leading the WDC IMO.

There have been plenty of WDC's won by drivers not driving as well as Verstappen is at the moment.

I don't think he is better than Lewis. I think it's possible he is driving better than him currently.


Yeah if you remove hamilton from the equation. Equally I don't think he would have beaten vettel last year.

Don't get me wrong here, I actually really like verstappen, I like his marmite style. I like his aggressive driving and passionate outbursts I think they are good for the sport and they are the same reasons I became a Hamilton fan in the first place, so I'm not being biased here. It's just absurd to say he is currently the best driver on the grid when he hasn't actually got a proper 2019 bench mark or gone through a WDC fight and is unproven in so many ways. He's in a totally relaxed situation at the moment, gasly is terrible and the car is worse in quali trim than it is in race trim and that flatters him somewhat as well


Last edited by FormulaFun on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:07 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Another good comparison would be Senna/Schumacher. In early 1994 Senna had achieved everything while Schumacher achieved nothing in comparison, yet I don’t think that Senna was clearly the better driver anymore by that point either.


Yes I thought of that one as well. Basically this happens in every generation in any sport. I don't know why people find something that is almost inevitable so offensive?


But on what basis can you actually say that verstappen is currently better than Hamilton? Hamilton has just come off the back of a WDC win against a 4x WDC in an inferior car. Meanwhile verstappen has achieved about 3 races without a crash, all because he won a race that he cocked up the start in to begin with - if he was racing against Hamilton and had a start like that in Austria do you really think he'd have won the race??

I'm not saying that verstappen isn't an on form driver, he is driving well, but to say he is driving like an infallible all conquering machine is really really absurd. He is being flattered by gasly who can't get his fairy cakes together at red bull, if he was against Hamilton challenging for the title at this point I would be on firm ground saying he would be trailing in points

He is driving really well but he is not on WDC winning form


Well I disagree with that. Give him Hamilton's Mercedes and he would be beating Bottas and leading the WDC IMO.

There have been plenty of WDC's won by drivers not driving as well as Verstappen is at the moment.

I don't think he is better than Lewis. I think it's possible he is driving better than him currently.

Yeah if you remove hamilton from the equation. Equally I don't think he would have beaten vettel last year

Not with the start he had, no. But I do think this year's Max would have pretty easily beaten Vettel last year -- assuming he could maintain this form in a genuine title-challenging car, of course.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:20 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
es I thought of that one as well. Basically this happens in every generation in any sport. I don't know why people find something that is almost inevitable so offensive?


But on what basis can you actually say that verstappen is currently better than Hamilton? Hamilton has just come off the back of a WDC win against a 4x WDC in an inferior car. Meanwhile verstappen has achieved about 3 races without a crash, all because he won a race that he cocked up the start in to begin with - if he was racing against Hamilton and had a start like that in Austria do you really think he'd have won the race??

I'm not saying that verstappen isn't an on form driver, he is driving well, but to say he is driving like an infallible all conquering machine is really really absurd. He is being flattered by gasly who can't get his fairy cakes together at red bull, if he was against Hamilton challenging for the title at this point I would be on firm ground saying he would be trailing in points

He is driving really well but he is not on WDC winning form


Well I disagree with that. Give him Hamilton's Mercedes and he would be beating Bottas and leading the WDC IMO.

There have been plenty of WDC's won by drivers not driving as well as Verstappen is at the moment.

I don't think he is better than Lewis. I think it's possible he is driving better than him currently.

Yeah if you remove hamilton from the equation. Equally I don't think he would have beaten vettel last year

Not with the start he had, no. But I do think this year's Max would have pretty easily beaten Vettel last year -- assuming he could maintain this form in a genuine title-challenging car, of course.


So by that omission, based on what... 9 pressure free races he is now the best driver on the grid? even despite Hamilton driving near flawless for about 2 years straight now. I don't buy that.

This conversation is completely because of the hype from Austria which was only a thriller cus he made a mistake in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:31 pm 
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All these arguments about how Hamilton is winning right now and therefore must be better than Verstappen are strange.

Was Vettel definitely a better driver than Hamilton from 2009 to 2013?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:45 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
All these arguments about how Hamilton is winning right now and therefore must be better than Verstappen are strange.

Was Vettel definitely a better driver than Hamilton from 2009 to 2013?

You've missed the point. During that window Vettel was winning more than Lewis but Lewis had already won a WDC and had already bested Fernando Alonso in identical machinery. He was also teamed with another WDC in Jenson Button during that time and often made him look painfully slow by comparison. So Lewis had a track record to back up claims that he was actually the faster/better driver.

What has Max done that establishes him as being on Hamilton's level? It's not just that he hasn't won a title, he has never even been teamed with a WDC and the only strong driver that he has bench-marked himself against is Ricciardo. While I would say that, by the end of their time as teammates, Max had the upper-hand, that tells you absolutely nothing about how he compares to Lewis.

If you want to establish Max as being better than Lewis, you have to back it up with more than the odd win or two and the fact that he beat Ricciardo in 2018. There has to be something to compare him to Lewis directly or, failing that, something that stands on its own without need for comparison (like a championship). Max doesn't have that yet. Why not suggest that George Russell is better than Hamilton? Afterall, Kubica was 2 tenths quicker than Heidfeld and blah blah blah...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:31 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not with the start he had, no. But I do think this year's Max would have pretty easily beaten Vettel last year -- assuming he could maintain this form in a genuine title-challenging car, of course.

So by that omission, based on what... 9 pressure free races he is now the best driver on the grid? even despite Hamilton driving near flawless for about 2 years straight now. I don't buy that.

This conversation is completely because of the hype from Austria which was only a thriller cus he made a mistake in the first place.

I didn't say anything about him being better than Hamilton. I said I thought he could have beaten Vettel in the 2018 Mercedes. He and Lewis aren't the only two on the grid I think could have done that.

My gut feeling is that Max is on Lewis' level in terms of pace. More than that, we won't find out until/if they go head to head in comparable machinery.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:20 am 
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Yeah can't really judge Max vs Lewis. Lewis has been battle tested so many times and has proven himself over and over again. Max is driving pressure free in a team that is focused on him and he has no true direct competitors, no one that he has to beat at all costs every weekend. Can't ask for a better environment. It's like when you are racing in clean air and there is no threat from behind, nobody in front either, so you are basically flying, braking points become second nature and you nail them without thinking twice. But when you are forced to go faster than you are comfortable with, that's where you have to prove your meddle. Driving under pressure. Max basically has never had to do that over an extended period of time. The one time he had to do that in a race was against his teammate Ricciardo at Baku 2018 and that one didn't end too well, as Ricciardo was faster than him that day. So let's wait until we see Max in a true championship battle before we proclaim he is the rightful heir of Ayrton Senna.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:58 am 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not with the start he had, no. But I do think this year's Max would have pretty easily beaten Vettel last year -- assuming he could maintain this form in a genuine title-challenging car, of course.

So by that omission, based on what... 9 pressure free races he is now the best driver on the grid? even despite Hamilton driving near flawless for about 2 years straight now. I don't buy that.

This conversation is completely because of the hype from Austria which was only a thriller cus he made a mistake in the first place.

I didn't say anything about him being better than Hamilton. I said I thought he could have beaten Vettel in the 2018 Mercedes. He and Lewis aren't the only two on the grid I think could have done that.

My gut feeling is that Max is on Lewis' level in terms of pace. More than that, we won't find out until/if they go head to head in comparable machinery.

The problem with this type of copy/paste thinking is that it does nothing to acknowledge the real differences between those circumstances. For example, going into last year, if you were told that Vettel would have the faster car than Hamilton more often than not as well as better reliability, would you have guessed that he would still lose the championship by 88 points? Would you have expected him to make so many costly driving errors? Probably not but that's what actually happened.

You cannot simply say that Max would still perform exactly the same in a championship fight (his very first championship fight) as he is now when he is under no pressure at all. I've seen many a driver crumble or at least struggle under pressure. I saw Michael Schumacher resort to dirty tactics numerous times and I saw him nearly implode in 03' when the pressure was on. I saw Jenson Button go into a shell after winning 6 of the first 7 races in 09' and then not win another one for the rest of the year. The weight of the championship is a totally different beast and Max has never won a championship in any level of car racing. His one year in F3, Ocon won the title. Winning titles is it's own thing; completely separate from winning a race or setting a pole. You can't just make these copy/paste assumptions about it.

The idea that there are several drivers who could have beaten Vettel last year is based on the way Hamilton competed against him. It's based on Hamilton's ability to put pressure on him and then Vettel's subsequent mistakes under that pressure. I do not think that there are many other drivers, if any, who would have beaten Vettel to the title in Hamilton's place. There are only three on the grid last year who I would even give a chance (Alonso, Max and Dan). Would they have poached wins and pole positions when the car was weaker by virtue of being a lot stronger in the wet? Would they have basically gone the entire year without a significant mistake? Would they have made up for reliability issues like winning from 14th on the grid after an engine failure in qualifying? There are a whole lot of assumptions that you have to make to suggest that Verstappen or anyone else would have won the championship last year in the Mercedes and I wouldn't make any of them.


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