planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:14 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7336
Location: Michigan, USA
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not with the start he had, no. But I do think this year's Max would have pretty easily beaten Vettel last year -- assuming he could maintain this form in a genuine title-challenging car, of course.

So by that omission, based on what... 9 pressure free races he is now the best driver on the grid? even despite Hamilton driving near flawless for about 2 years straight now. I don't buy that.

This conversation is completely because of the hype from Austria which was only a thriller cus he made a mistake in the first place.

I didn't say anything about him being better than Hamilton. I said I thought he could have beaten Vettel in the 2018 Mercedes. He and Lewis aren't the only two on the grid I think could have done that.

My gut feeling is that Max is on Lewis' level in terms of pace. More than that, we won't find out until/if they go head to head in comparable machinery.

The problem with this type of copy/paste thinking is that it does nothing to acknowledge the real differences between those circumstances. For example, going into last year, if you were told that Vettel would have the faster car than Hamilton more often than not as well as better reliability, would you have guessed that he would still lose the championship by 88 points? Would you have expected him to make so many costly driving errors? Probably not but that's what actually happened.

You cannot simply say that Max would still perform exactly the same in a championship fight (his very first championship fight) as he is now when he is under no pressure at all. I've seen many a driver crumble or at least struggle under pressure. I saw Michael Schumacher resort to dirty tactics numerous times and I saw him nearly implode in 03' when the pressure was on. I saw Jenson Button go into a shell after winning 6 of the first 7 races in 09' and then not win another one for the rest of the year. The weight of the championship is a totally different beast and Max has never won a championship in any level of car racing. His one year in F3, Ocon won the title. Winning titles is it's own thing; completely separate from winning a race or setting a pole. You can't just make these copy/paste assumptions about it.

The idea that there are several drivers who could have beaten Vettel last year is based on the way Hamilton competed against him. It's based on Hamilton's ability to put pressure on him and then Vettel's subsequent mistakes under that pressure. I do not think that there are many other drivers, if any, who would have beaten Vettel to the title in Hamilton's place. There are only three on the grid last year who I would even give a chance (Alonso, Max and Dan). Would they have poached wins and pole positions when the car was weaker by virtue of being a lot stronger in the wet? Would they have basically gone the entire year without a significant mistake? Would they have made up for reliability issues like winning from 14th on the grid after an engine failure in qualifying? There are a whole lot of assumptions that you have to make to suggest that Verstappen or anyone else would have won the championship last year in the Mercedes and I wouldn't make any of them.

I agree with you insofar as it's a wildcard whether Seb would have driven as poorly if he wasn't facing Hamilton. However, after the prior year (2017) I very much did expect Seb to lose to Hamilton even with a car advantage, because that's what I think happened in that year as well.

I think Hamilton is in Seb's head at this point: he knows he's the inferior driver between the two of them, and that leads to him over-driving and making mistakes. However, I can easily see the same happening with Max, once it becomes clear that Max is the quicker driver. Which I believe it would if they faced one another for a championship.

It should be noted on this subject that I have never rated Vettel very highly, and do not consider him in the same class as Hamilton.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2529
KingVoid wrote:
All these arguments about how Hamilton is winning right now and therefore must be better than Verstappen are strange.

Was Vettel definitely a better driver than Hamilton from 2009 to 2013?


What had Hamilton achieved/proved by the end of 2010?
A WDC (in inferior machinery)
3 out of 4 years put in a title challenge
Bested a 2 - time WDC winning driver
Bested another WDC winning driver
Proved himself in a midfield car and won in it

What has verstappen accomplished during his career so far?
Won exciting races
Proved himself in a midfield car

I'd also argue that generally Hamilton was faster in 2010, 2011 and 2012 than he is now (excluding anomolies like Singapore '18) but was he a better driver because of that? Nope


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 805
What I read are the same guys who were in the Alonso camp now behind Verstappen.

The Bestest driver tag was first of Alonso, then Ricciardo and now Verstappen.
People(not only here) has never acknowledged Lewis as the best despite his unbelievable career and even if they did, there is also the "but", "bar Alonso" bla bla bla cr*p.

Hamilton is a smart guy and I am sure he will prefer to go out with a bang so I have no doubt he will welcome Verstappen in his team.

The only guy I will fear as a Hamilton fan is Leclerc, because he is so charming and calm he will quickly remove the seat under anybody a*s.
As of now Verstappen has it easy compared to Hamilton, Vettel or Leclerc. He is superman right? I would be curious to see him drive a car different than the RedBull as I am sure he will be a different driver(you can not follow with a Mercedes for example and their braking is cr*p).

If I had one name for the future it would be Leclerc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:27 pm
Posts: 184
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1458
Location: UK
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7944
Option or Prime wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?

Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


Well Ricciardo has had more success in F1 in terms of success against his team mate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
Option or Prime wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?


It depends who Hamilton got replaced by TBH. If he was replaced by Verstappen then not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:27 pm
Posts: 184
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?

Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I do think Verstappen has been the driver of the season so far. It's true he lacks a proven benchmark which makes his performance hard to judge. Hamilton does though and has been regularly out qualified by someone who not many would argue is a tier 1 driver. So on that basis I give Verstappen the benefit of the doubt.

It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?

Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2529
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
It really surprises me how Ricciardo gets so much praise and Bottas gets bashed to bits but in the junior categories where machinery is somewhat equalised it was Bottas who beat Ricciardo. It’s a really thankless task being a Hamilton teammate.


It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?

Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Doubting Hamilton's pace is really quite odd considering Rosberg, Button and Alonso have all had nothing but heaps of praise for his quali laps saying he was essentially unbeatable at times so to speculate towards the opposite is kind of completely unfounded


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:

It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?

Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Doubting Hamilton's pace is really quite odd considering Rosberg, Button and Alonso have all had nothing but heaps of praise for his quali laps saying he was essentially unbeatable at times so to speculate towards the opposite is kind of completely unfounded


I think Bottas and Ricciardo might be close on speed (although you can't discount Ricciardo's pace either) but Ricciardo is stronger in other areas. I would back him to beat Bottas over a season. I think it would look similar to Ricciardo/Hulkenberg.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2529
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?
Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Doubting Hamilton's pace is really quite odd considering Rosberg, Button and Alonso have all had nothing but heaps of praise for his quali laps saying he was essentially unbeatable at times so to speculate towards the opposite is kind of completely unfounded


I think Bottas and Ricciardo might be close on speed (although you can't discount Ricciardo's pace either) but Ricciardo is stronger in other areas. I would back him to beat Bottas over a season. I think it would look similar to Ricciardo/Hulkenberg.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?


Obviously not permanently unbeatable lol, thst said the only time he has been outqualified over a season is in 2014 and generally it's accepted that Rosberg was focussing his setup for quali because he couldn't actually beat Hamilton in a wheel to wheel race (obviously this is not a fact)

But Verstappen has also dropped the ball in quali when it matters a number of times and that is in a pressure free environment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1458
Location: UK
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?


The thing is though its the Sunday that matters, quick though LH is its his knack of winning races through not making mistakes that has won him WDCs, can't really say that about MV and SV. MV also needs to improve his off the line starts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?


The thing is though its the Sunday that matters, quick though LH is its his knack of winning races through not making mistakes that has won him WDCs, can't really say that about MV and SV. MV also needs to improve his off the line starts.


I agree. Hamilton is a brilliant all rounder. The post i was replying to specifically mentioned speed though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Doubting Hamilton's pace is really quite odd considering Rosberg, Button and Alonso have all had nothing but heaps of praise for his quali laps saying he was essentially unbeatable at times so to speculate towards the opposite is kind of completely unfounded


I think Bottas and Ricciardo might be close on speed (although you can't discount Ricciardo's pace either) but Ricciardo is stronger in other areas. I would back him to beat Bottas over a season. I think it would look similar to Ricciardo/Hulkenberg.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?


Obviously not permanently unbeatable lol, thst said the only time he has been outqualified over a season is in 2014 and generally it's accepted that Rosberg was focussing his setup for quali because he couldn't actually beat Hamilton in a wheel to wheel race (obviously this is not a fact)

But Verstappen has also dropped the ball in quali when it matters a number of times and that is in a pressure free environment.


I agree.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1458
Location: UK
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?


The thing is though its the Sunday that matters, quick though LH is its his knack of winning races through not making mistakes that has won him WDCs, can't really say that about MV and SV. MV also needs to improve his off the line starts.


I agree. Hamilton is a brilliant all rounder. The post i was replying to specifically mentioned speed though.


Fair enough, I'll try to keep up!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32840
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


It's not giving him a pass. It's not blaming him for things they weren't his fault. And I don't think you can accuse of embellishing whilst you are blaming Verstappen for others running into the back of him to try and make your point stronger.

I actually agree with what you're saying. 2019 has been better for 2017 for Max. The point is that Max wasn't making a huge amount of mistakes in 2017. He had a bad spell in the first half of 2018 for sure.

When comparing with 2017 Verstappen made mistakes that Hamilton wasn't making, he also collided with Massa which you also look to blame Massa for whereas it was clearly Verstappen being over aggressive, I said that Verstappen's driving was immature which you questioned, I ask do you really think that is the same Verstappen we see racing this year?

It was said at the time that Verstappen wouldn't be making the mistakes he was making if he was driving a WDC contending car yet he isn't driving a WDC contending car this season and he's not making those race ending mistakes.

Verstappen had the speed in 2017 but it's not until this year that he's started to have the kind of maturity needed to say he could go the season without race ending collisions with opponents, even then he got penalised for hitting Bottas in Monaco and he's had collisions with Sainz, Hamilton and Leclerc and we still see the bullying mentality with opponents like Leclerc and towards the stewards per-exempting any kind of penalty in Austria.

Overall I think he's wound back the aggression a little bit so the chances of race ending collisions have been greatly decreased but still doesn't mind a bit of contact which works so long as other drivers are a bit more in a self-preservation mode and the stewards maybe a bit intimidated by any kind of flak they might get?

Regarding the thread itself I believe Verstappen is every bit as fast as Hamilton, is he as complete as Hamilton would be more of a question mark, like I said the qualifying certainly points to Verstappen being no slower than Hamilton, race pace I think also would be close, wet weather driving I say Hamilton is faster, avoiding race ending collisions I would also side with Hamilton because he doesn't have as many collisions as Verstappen, Verstappen 4 collisions with 4 different drivers, Hamilton one collision that being with Verstappen.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
So you're inclined to give Max a pass on the collisions in 2017? Interesting and I wonder would you not say something about staying out of trouble were it another driver...The point stands that you are embellishing and overreaching. There were several rounds that year where Daniel was outright better. In Monaco, for example, Daniel bested Max quite comfortably on race day. Likewise in Italy Daniel was easily better in the race. There were several races where Max was a no-show thanks to reliability as well so that's not on him but 2017 was not of the same level as 2019 by any stretch of the imagination. This year he has finished in the top 5 every race and has been on the podium in 3 of the 4 legitimate chances he's had at it. Above all, he hasn't thrown away many points. The only race where you could accuse him of that is Monaco for the penalty.


It's not giving him a pass. It's not blaming him for things they weren't his fault. And I don't think you can accuse of embellishing whilst you are blaming Verstappen for others running into the back of him to try and make your point stronger.

I actually agree with what you're saying. 2019 has been better for 2017 for Max. The point is that Max wasn't making a huge amount of mistakes in 2017. He had a bad spell in the first half of 2018 for sure.

When comparing with 2017 Verstappen made mistakes that Hamilton wasn't making, he also collided with Massa which you also look to blame Massa for whereas it was clearly Verstappen being over aggressive, I said that Verstappen's driving was immature which you questioned, I ask do you really think that is the same Verstappen we see racing this year?

It was said at the time that Verstappen wouldn't be making the mistakes he was making if he was driving a WDC contending car yet he isn't driving a WDC contending car this season and he's not making those race ending mistakes.

Verstappen had the speed in 2017 but it's not until this year that he's started to have the kind of maturity needed to say he could go the season without race ending collisions with opponents, even then he got penalised for hitting Bottas in Monaco and he's had collisions with Sainz, Hamilton and Leclerc and we still see the bullying mentality with opponents like Leclerc and towards the stewards per-exempting any kind of penalty in Austria.

Overall I think he's wound back the aggression a little bit so the chances of race ending collisions have been greatly decreased but still doesn't mind a bit of contact which works so long as other drivers are a bit more in a self-preservation mode and the stewards maybe a bit intimidated by any kind of flak they might get?

Regarding the thread itself I believe Verstappen is every bit as fast as Hamilton, is he as complete as Hamilton would be more of a question mark, like I said the qualifying certainly points to Verstappen being no slower than Hamilton, race pace I think also would be close, wet weather driving I say Hamilton is faster, avoiding race ending collisions I would also side with Hamilton because he doesn't have as many collisions as Verstappen, Verstappen 4 collisions with 4 different drivers, Hamilton one collision that being with Verstappen.


I agree with just about all of the above. I have said nothing about 2017 Verstappen other than he wasn't making all that many mistakes and that his run in early 2018 was the exception not the rule.

I think Verstappen is a much better driver now than he was in 2017. He's still aggressive but I think in the circumstances he is in the best policy is to take risks. If he just takes the path of least resistance every race (the Merc strategy) He'd probably finish 5th most races.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32840
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Doubting Hamilton's pace is really quite odd considering Rosberg, Button and Alonso have all had nothing but heaps of praise for his quali laps saying he was essentially unbeatable at times so to speculate towards the opposite is kind of completely unfounded


I think Bottas and Ricciardo might be close on speed (although you can't discount Ricciardo's pace either) but Ricciardo is stronger in other areas. I would back him to beat Bottas over a season. I think it would look similar to Ricciardo/Hulkenberg.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Hamilton isn't brilliantly fast a lot of the time. I do think he perhaps drops to many quali sessions to his team mates to be considered unbeatable though?

Yeah I thought to mention this as well which relates to qualifying averages, Verstappen doesn't often get beat in qualifying so his average doesn't get as often negatively affected as Hamilton's.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2634
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
It's a decent point, if Hamilton retired at the end of this season it would be Bottas not Verstappen as the favourite for the WDC next year wouldn't it?

Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Bottas vs Massa was 23-23 in a two car finish. There was basically no difference in race pace between them in either 2014 or 2015. Bottas was the better qualifier though and hence would usually start ahead.

Bottas is rated correctly. A good qualifier and an average racer. I don’t rate him any faster than Massa or Raikkonen on Sundays.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2529
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Bottas vs Massa was 23-23 in a two car finish. There was basically no difference in race pace between them in either 2014 or 2015. Bottas was the better qualifier though and hence would usually start ahead.

Bottas is rated correctly. A good qualifier and an average racer. I don’t rate him any faster than Massa or Raikkonen on Sundays.


Are we not talking about single lap quali speed here? Bottas is fast over a single lap and that's always been his strength, he basically got his Merc drive on the basis of quali performance yet he is behind Hamilton still


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2913
I don't think that many on here doubt Verstappen's raw pace, and his race maturity is improving - he has arguably been the stand-out driver for this season thus far. If all goes well, we could be taking about him on the same terms as we do about Hamilton in several years' time.

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32840
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Assuming Bottas wasn't replaced with someone expected to be better then yes, but how is that relevant?

Very few would expect Bottas to beat Verstappen in equal machinery so all that is saying is people expect the Mercedes to be the car to beat next year, not the Red Bull.

These chassis are quite deferent so you never know how Verstappen’s driving style might suit the Mercedes. We see it clearly with Ricciardo under braking.....he was making all manner of dive bombs stick in the Redbull but lately he’s been running off track while trying his dive bombs and getting penalties and punting his teammate as well. For whatever reason the Mercedes can’t follow as well and starts to slide and ruin tyres. You can’t tell how well Verstappen might deal with that frustration.


Sure you can't tell for sure but Verstappen V Bottas in the best car then Verstappen would be favourite for the WDC.

Sure but i think Bottas Vs Riccardo would be pretty close... Bottas is hugely under rated now purely because of having Hamilton as team mate.

Just as a driver can be flattered by an underperforming team mate the opposite is true. I think Bottas Vs Vettel would be very close.

Bottas vs Massa was 23-23 in a two car finish. There was basically no difference in race pace between them in either 2014 or 2015. Bottas was the better qualifier though and hence would usually start ahead.

Bottas is rated correctly. A good qualifier and an average racer. I don’t rate him any faster than Massa or Raikkonen on Sundays.

Yet Bottas out scored Massa 3 years on the trot, 186-134, 136-121, 85-53, not an entirely honest comparison.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2405
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:01 pm 
Online

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6871
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.


I think right now there is no point in saying "Hamilton is currently the best driver in F1" It's like, well yeah, duh.

It's always a waste of time saying something nobody sensible would disagree with. No point in arguing a point that is pretty much a given.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


Schumacher got way more hate in the British press than Hamilton does.

I would say in the UK media if Hamilton is a victim of anything he is apathy. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest British sportsman we have ever had. He is quite possibly the most successful in a major sport and yet he never gets talked about in those terms. I also find it bizarre how he remains an MBE (a lower honour than that bestowed on Claire Williams and the same as Suzie Wolf for Christ sake) whilst people like Andy Murray and Mo Farah get knighthoods.

I think the lifestyle things has died down but I have never understood it. How on earth can promoting a clothing range for Tommy be as much of a distraction as having children?

The only "divisive" thing I hear people who do not follow F1 say about Hamilton is his tax exile status. People don't like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:32 pm 
Online

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6871
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


Schumacher got way more hate in the British press than Hamilton does.

I would say in the UK media if Hamilton is a victim of anything he is apathy. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest British sportsman we have ever had. He is quite possibly the most successful in a major sport and yet he never gets talked about in those terms. I also find it bizarre how he remains an MBE (a lower honour than that bestowed on Claire Williams and the same as Suzie Wolf for Christ sake) whilst people like Andy Murray and Mo Farah get knighthoods.

I think the lifestyle things has died down but I have never understood it. How on earth can promoting a clothing range for Tommy be as much of a distraction as having children?

The only "divisive" thing I hear people who do not follow F1 say about Hamilton is his tax exile status. People don't like that.

And yet they have never given Jenson Button nor David Coulthard any trouble about it, despite the fact that both of them also moved to Monaco. They pick and choose who to use that against. The British media tries to portray Hamilton as shallow and materialistic; a fairly common theme. Public figures in England who are politically savvy will tend to go out of their way to take on that "hard hat and lunch pale" persona of the everyday working man; knowing that if they come across as being too flashy, the media will portray them negatively.

I do get the sense that there are many who make an effort to downplay his achievements. They can't stop him from winning on track but they can try to frame his success in a diminished light. So all of those subjective voting awards like driver of the year, sportsman of the year, etc. Those are the areas where he will often lose out because people can push their agendas in those arenas.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


Schumacher got way more hate in the British press than Hamilton does.

I would say in the UK media if Hamilton is a victim of anything he is apathy. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest British sportsman we have ever had. He is quite possibly the most successful in a major sport and yet he never gets talked about in those terms. I also find it bizarre how he remains an MBE (a lower honour than that bestowed on Claire Williams and the same as Suzie Wolf for Christ sake) whilst people like Andy Murray and Mo Farah get knighthoods.

I think the lifestyle things has died down but I have never understood it. How on earth can promoting a clothing range for Tommy be as much of a distraction as having children?

The only "divisive" thing I hear people who do not follow F1 say about Hamilton is his tax exile status. People don't like that.

And yet they have never given Jenson Button nor David Coulthard any trouble about it, despite the fact that both of them also moved to Monaco. They pick and choose who to use that against. The British media tries to portray Hamilton as shallow and materialistic; a fairly common theme. Public figures in England who are politically savvy will tend to go out of their way to take on that "hard hat and lunch pale" persona of the everyday working man; knowing that if they come across as being too flashy, the media will portray them negatively.

I do get the sense that there are many who make an effort to downplay his achievements. They can't stop him from winning on track but they can try to frame his success in a diminished light. So all of those subjective voting awards like driver of the year, sportsman of the year, etc. Those are the areas where he will often lose out because people can push their agendas in those arenas.


With the tax exile thing I think part of it is classicism. Hamilton's working class background is widely known and we seem to have a rather daft belief in certain circles in Britain that people like him should "know there place". I also think the timing of it made it feel slightly different. Right at the time of the economic crash when a lot of people were feeling very hard up and going immediately as he became successful made it look like he couldn't wait to leave the country that made him. He was awful way more high profile than Button or Coulthard when he made the move.

None of this is Hamilton's fault of course.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:07 pm 
Online

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6871
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


Schumacher got way more hate in the British press than Hamilton does.

I would say in the UK media if Hamilton is a victim of anything he is apathy. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest British sportsman we have ever had. He is quite possibly the most successful in a major sport and yet he never gets talked about in those terms. I also find it bizarre how he remains an MBE (a lower honour than that bestowed on Claire Williams and the same as Suzie Wolf for Christ sake) whilst people like Andy Murray and Mo Farah get knighthoods.

I think the lifestyle things has died down but I have never understood it. How on earth can promoting a clothing range for Tommy be as much of a distraction as having children?

The only "divisive" thing I hear people who do not follow F1 say about Hamilton is his tax exile status. People don't like that.

And yet they have never given Jenson Button nor David Coulthard any trouble about it, despite the fact that both of them also moved to Monaco. They pick and choose who to use that against. The British media tries to portray Hamilton as shallow and materialistic; a fairly common theme. Public figures in England who are politically savvy will tend to go out of their way to take on that "hard hat and lunch pale" persona of the everyday working man; knowing that if they come across as being too flashy, the media will portray them negatively.

I do get the sense that there are many who make an effort to downplay his achievements. They can't stop him from winning on track but they can try to frame his success in a diminished light. So all of those subjective voting awards like driver of the year, sportsman of the year, etc. Those are the areas where he will often lose out because people can push their agendas in those arenas.


With the tax exile thing I think part of it is classicism. Hamilton's working class background is widely known and we seem to have a rather daft belief in certain circles in Britain that people like him should "know there place". I also think the timing of it made it feel slightly different. Right at the time of the economic crash when a lot of people were feeling very hard up and going immediately as he became successful made it look like he couldn't wait to leave the country that made him. He was awful way more high profile than Button or Coulthard when he made the move.

None of this is Hamilton's fault of course.

To be honest, I don't buy that. Jenson Button wasn't from a wealthy family either. Leaving England is par for the course for any British F1 driver regardless of background. You'd be hard-pressed to find one that actually remained there if you're looking over the last 30-40 years. Nigel Mansell moved to the Isle of Man (a known tax haven) and spent most of his career there. Button and Coulthard moved to Monaco (another tax haven). None of them get a hard time for it whatsoever. In fact they knighted Nigel if I recall correctly. So, without wanting to get into the deeper reasons for this clear double-standard, I would just like to point out that there is no explanation for it that is based in logic.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16071
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


Schumacher got way more hate in the British press than Hamilton does.

I would say in the UK media if Hamilton is a victim of anything he is apathy. You could easily make a case for him being the greatest British sportsman we have ever had. He is quite possibly the most successful in a major sport and yet he never gets talked about in those terms. I also find it bizarre how he remains an MBE (a lower honour than that bestowed on Claire Williams and the same as Suzie Wolf for Christ sake) whilst people like Andy Murray and Mo Farah get knighthoods.

I think the lifestyle things has died down but I have never understood it. How on earth can promoting a clothing range for Tommy be as much of a distraction as having children?

The only "divisive" thing I hear people who do not follow F1 say about Hamilton is his tax exile status. People don't like that.

And yet they have never given Jenson Button nor David Coulthard any trouble about it, despite the fact that both of them also moved to Monaco. They pick and choose who to use that against. The British media tries to portray Hamilton as shallow and materialistic; a fairly common theme. Public figures in England who are politically savvy will tend to go out of their way to take on that "hard hat and lunch pale" persona of the everyday working man; knowing that if they come across as being too flashy, the media will portray them negatively.

I do get the sense that there are many who make an effort to downplay his achievements. They can't stop him from winning on track but they can try to frame his success in a diminished light. So all of those subjective voting awards like driver of the year, sportsman of the year, etc. Those are the areas where he will often lose out because people can push their agendas in those arenas.


With the tax exile thing I think part of it is classicism. Hamilton's working class background is widely known and we seem to have a rather daft belief in certain circles in Britain that people like him should "know there place". I also think the timing of it made it feel slightly different. Right at the time of the economic crash when a lot of people were feeling very hard up and going immediately as he became successful made it look like he couldn't wait to leave the country that made him. He was awful way more high profile than Button or Coulthard when he made the move.

None of this is Hamilton's fault of course.

To be honest, I don't buy that. Jenson Button wasn't from a wealthy family either. Leaving England is par for the course for any British F1 driver regardless of background. You'd be hard-pressed to find one that actually remained there if you're looking over the last 30-40 years. Nigel Mansell moved to the Isle of Man (a known tax haven) and spent most of his career there. Button and Coulthard moved to Monaco (another tax haven). None of them get a hard time for it whatsoever. In fact they knighted Nigel if I recall correctly. So, without wanting to get into the deeper reasons for this clear double-standard, I would just like to point out that there is no explanation for it that is based in logic.


When Button made the move in 01 how many were familiar with his back story?

Simply Hamilton's story is way better known than Button's and Hamilton was way higher profile when he made the move.

There a multi mini factors at work here which makes the Hamilton move feel worse (unfairly) in the minds of the non F1 following population.

Mansell has never been knighted.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 2962
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


I think in general this is the way of the world. Media will print what they like to achieve maximum clicks as there seems to be a large appetite for news that reinforces ones opinion these days. And as we see; particularly in politics but also elsewhere, the fact that the recipients of such news knows they are being lied to doesn't seem to bother them. They simply want to believe it. So when it comes to a personality in the news you have a combined audience of those that like the guy; and those that hate him. For example in F1 you don't have to stray to far from this site to find a similar site where the clickbait headline often bears little resemblance to main body of the story. Similarly you can watch a live interview post race with a driver, only for a number of publications to churn out a dozen different stories; edited beyond recognition, to satisfy demand. The majority of them penned by individuals that have never seen the inside of a paddock,As one particular media man come F1 honcho said a while ago; 'why should I pay out for a well researched story, when I can get more page views by lifting something off twitter.'

With regards to Hamilton the issue of racism plays a part; but as we see within F1 in particular and motorsport in general, it's not something motorsport wants to address. Meanwhile many of the posts you see on various forums are little more than variations of 'he should know his place'. It seems some still people think the most successful driver of his generation should be more humble. The same issues will probably apply to the first openly gay driver and female racer who reaches the top.

In the round I'm pretty disgusted with the way the media has gone; and realised when the new guy took over at Sky F1 for instance we would have a 'directed' reality show with goodies and baddies. But in relation to Hamilton in particular its no big deal. He just smiles serenely and carries on winning; annoying the usual crowd even more by earning a couple of $million for wearing some sunglasses, and $8 million (plus $50 million to Mercedes) for designing some clothes.

And what I like about Hamilton;and Vettel for that matter, is they don't need or care about all the nonsense outside of the car. They do their obligatory press and walk away until the next race. Hamilton doing his thing, and Vettel going home to his family, motorbikes and Beatles.

I sometimes wonder what will happen years after Hamilton retires when those who have spent the last decade deriding Hamilton; particularly if he holds all the major records and is arguably considered the GOAT, are asked about him.
'Wow Grandad you were watching when Hamilton was competing! That must have been something? What was it like?'
'Brilliant! I spent 15 years shouting at the TV and spewing bile about the guy on social media.'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7336
Location: Michigan, USA
sandman1347 wrote:
It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.

I think you've hit on it with the bolded part, sadly. Somehow it has become 'cool' on the internet to hate anyone and everything, and be as negative about whatever your subject might be as physically possible. The more you bemoan how horrible the sport you watch is and how it's dying, the 'cooler' you are, apparently.

I've always had a somewhat troubled relationship with Hamilton fans, which I feel is down to a somewhat vicious cycle. Start at whichever end of the seesaw you want, but the net result is that Hamilton fans perceive that Hamilton doesn't get the respect he deserves, thus they're very aggressive about his status as the best driver, which off-puts people like me, which causes Hamilton fans to feel that he's being disrespected, which... etc.

Just to be clear, Hamilton is certainly the best driver in F1 right now. Verstappen may have the speed to challenge him, but that doesn't make him the best yet.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:40 pm 
Online

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6871
shoot999 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well, what I noticed on this forum is some quite prevalent users over the last few years would look for any excuse or vaguely plausible reasoning to not have Hamilton in top spot as the best driver on the grid or the driver of the season. I can think of one chap who, IIRC, opted for either Vettel, Ricciardo, Alonso (and probably now Verstappen no matter what happens for the rest of the season) over Hamilton for every season since 2014.

It's hard for me to get a read on what people actually think about Hamilton. I wonder if in 10 years time people will be using his name when describing performances of future top drivers: "A Hamiltonesque performance". Even though it would be just as erroneous and lazy half the time as saying someone has produced a Senna or Schumacher-esque performance.

From my observation, there are a lot of people who just don't like him. You see it beyond the confines of this one forum. For example, when the F1 Youtube channel releases videos where he is the subject of the video, you will always see a far higher number of :thumbdown: votes. There are a lot of F1 fans that are basically against him regardless of any actual events.

It's somewhat normal for the most successful driver to have the most haters. I do recall seeing that with Senna and especially with Schumacher but it's far more prevalent with Lewis. I do think that the internet/social media era has a lot to do with it. People are so negative these days that it's scary. The thing that's different is that Senna and Schumacher did, at times, do things on track that were highly controversial. Senna's run-ins with Prost at the end of 89' and 90' were cause for controversy and Schumacher's actions in 94' and 97' (and just in general) certainly crossed the line.

Lewis doesn't have anything like that. He has never intentionally taken out a competitor and he has a track record of predominately clean racing throughout his career. So it's not about anything he's done on track. It's really more of a personal thing. You see it in people's commentary about him. Even main-stream media describes him as a "divisive" or "controversial" figure but there just aren't any real controversies to back that description up. From what I gather, a lot of it is about how he spends his time off-track; who he hangs out with, how he dresses, what music he listens to, etc. It's actually ridiculous. You'd think the guy has problems with the law or drugs or something (which he does not). The irony is that it's the British media that has bent over backwards to paint him in a negative light.


I think in general this is the way of the world. Media will print what they like to achieve maximum clicks as there seems to be a large appetite for news that reinforces ones opinion these days. And as we see; particularly in politics but also elsewhere, the fact that the recipients of such news knows they are being lied to doesn't seem to bother them. They simply want to believe it. So when it comes to a personality in the news you have a combined audience of those that like the guy; and those that hate him. For example in F1 you don't have to stray to far from this site to find a similar site where the clickbait headline often bears little resemblance to main body of the story. Similarly you can watch a live interview post race with a driver, only for a number of publications to churn out a dozen different stories; edited beyond recognition, to satisfy demand. The majority of them penned by individuals that have never seen the inside of a paddock,As one particular media man come F1 honcho said a while ago; 'why should I pay out for a well researched story, when I can get more page views by lifting something off twitter.'

With regards to Hamilton the issue of racism plays a part; but as we see within F1 in particular and motorsport in general, it's not something motorsport wants to address. Meanwhile many of the posts you see on various forums are little more than variations of 'he should know his place'. It seems some still people think the most successful driver of his generation should be more humble. The same issues will probably apply to the first openly gay driver and female racer who reaches the top.

In the round I'm pretty disgusted with the way the media has gone; and realised when the new guy took over at Sky F1 for instance we would have a 'directed' reality show with goodies and baddies. But in relation to Hamilton in particular its no big deal. He just smiles serenely and carries on winning; annoying the usual crowd even more by earning a couple of $million for wearing some sunglasses, and $8 million (plus $50 million to Mercedes) for designing some clothes.

And what I like about Hamilton;and Vettel for that matter, is they don't need or care about all the nonsense outside of the car. They do their obligatory press and walk away until the next race. Hamilton doing his thing, and Vettel going home to his family, motorbikes and Beatles.

I sometimes wonder what will happen years after Hamilton retires when those who have spent the last decade deriding Hamilton; particularly if he holds all the major records and is arguably considered the GOAT, are asked about him.
'Wow Grandad you were watching when Hamilton was competing! That must have been something? What was it like?'
'Brilliant! I spent 15 years shouting at the TV and spewing bile about the guy on social media.'

Yeah I mostly agree. The motor racing community is not a very introspective environment. It's not a place where there is any real leadership on issues like that nor is it an environment in which people are inclined to challenge their own perceptions or behavior. In fact, it's often a bunch of grouchy people who want things to be like they were in "the old days". It's not an idealistic or altruistic place and there are certainly plenty of motor sports fans, journalists and ex-drivers who very much want to maintain that country club mentality that such an expensive sport inevitably cultivates.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 2962
'I don't compare myself to anybody. I don't need to.' Hamilton. 11/07/19


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:58 pm
Posts: 61
And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2405
jeffw wrote:
And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.


I wouldn't write off that possibility just yet...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32840
jeffw wrote:
And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.

Well it's been said that was Verstappen's choice to be made.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2529
jeffw wrote:
And a shame we will never see Lewis -vs- Max head to head in the same car.


Rumor has it Max turned down opportunity to join Merc - would be VERY interesting to find out how accurate that is, but we basically won't know definitively for many years if ever


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Covalent, JN23, sandman1347 and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group