planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:48 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 10248
Location: Ireland
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
So do you think the actual gap is a good picture of their respective talent?
I watch the races with live timing and guess what? everybody is overtaking left and right bar Gasly.

There is something seriously wrong on his side or in his head. Much like Vandoorne.

Q. What do Gasly and Vandoorne have in common?
A. A top tier driver as a teammate making their lives hell


Making their top driver teammates look like they are doing miracles week in week out because the car is undriveable to them or they have psychological issues.

McLaren was slow and the RB is slow too.. the narrative is there for a reason.

The McLaren was slow! How was it not slow?!

Alonso >> Vandoorne
Verstappen >> Gasly

If Gasly/Vandoorne have psychological issues in dealing with a top level teammate then they're simply not cut out for the top themselves


That's what I said.
Verstappen is being flattered by Gasly just like Alonso with Vandoorne who did exactly 1 overtake in 3 years.

In Austria, with a competent driver in the other RB, Verstappen would not have won the race and would not have got a 11/10 score . It is all relative and a "lost" teammate can do wonders to a driver's reputation. ;)

Name the competent drivers you think would have stopped Max from winning the Austrian GP. If any of your answers are not Lewis Hamilton then I 100% believe you are wrong

Verstappen has already beaten competent drivers as teammates. Once he got on top of Ricciardo he had elevated himself into top tier status (where I had placed Ricciardo myself). The only other guy on the grid operating at that level is Hamilton - and even he has been less consistent than Max this year

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
shoot999 wrote:
If Max is the best driver on the grid and Mercedes has the best car Max must be about to sign for them for next season. He wouldn't throw away a cert WDC by staying where he is would he?

Like he did before, this time though his get out clause I'm guessing will not be triggered?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
LBET wrote:
Yup, today was supposed to be that day. Certainly they are both somewhat ruthless drivers but, in the same car, in qually mode would be down about a 10th.

BTW, I define ruthless as acting without compassion or mercy for others.

In that case I wouldn't class Hamilton as being a ruthless driver, Verstappen clearly is.


I think in some ways you could he is. He'll do what he can to benefit himself (Abu Dhabi 2014 was very ruthless). He's just learnt that being risk averse is the best strategy to win a championship.

You lost me with Abu Dhabi 2014, also I'm comparing with how they drive presently.


Apologies. I meant Abu Dhabi 2016.

I think you have a funny version of what ruthless is when Hamilton was hoping that someone else might do the dirty for him so to speak, a ruthless driver does the dirty himself.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
KingVoid wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
If Max is the best driver on the grid and Mercedes has the best car Max must be about to sign for them for next season. He wouldn't throw away a cert WDC by staying where he is would he?

If Hamilton is better than Vettel then why didn’t he just sign for Red Bull when Vettel was winning everything?

You joined the site in 2015 so I would be guessing that might be the extent of your F1 knowledge?

You never heard of Canada 2011 when Hamilton went to see Red Bull asking for a drive in full view of the worlds press?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2419
KingVoid wrote:
Gasly won the GP2 title at the age of 20. Last season people were praising Gasly after his performances in Bahrain and Hungary. This idea that he’s now somehow the worst driver on the grid is complete nonsense. Therefore the argument that Gasly is bad and therefore we can’t rate Verstappen is BS.

Also, Gasly is not as good as Bottas. I never said he was.


It's not that he's the worst driver on the grid exactly, it's that he can't drive the red bull. The mere fact that you're trying to pass off Gasly's performances this season as average, when he's literally on the brink of being sacked after 11 races, shows how either deluded or how devoted to your point you are right now.

You need to take a step back because you MUST surely know Gasly is NOT performing to any kind of standard that can be considered even remotely close to "average".

I can't believe this debate can even be had


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The amount of deflection to my question on this last page is incredible. :lol:

Hamilton has had two terrible races this season. Verstappen hasn’t had a single one. How can anyone claim that Hamilton has been better?

That’s like claiming that Hill was better than Schumacher in 1996. Not as extreme but the same logic.


Lol dude nobody has even debated against you that Verstappen isn't having a good season, what people are debating you on is that you're pushing your opinion as a matter of fact that Verstappen is faster and a generally a better driver than Hamilton on the basis of 10 races in which he has no performance comparator because Gasly is terrible.

This race went to Verstappen but you're forgetting that he also did a 360 and was fortunate to land it, I would now agree that after this race I'd say Verstappen has the slight edge (pre-germany it was Hamilton) in form, but this race did nothing to support Verstappen as being "faster" or as a whole "better" driver since he basically just happened into first place because of Merc stupidity with strat, and weather changes, equally just as Vettel finished 2nd after running at midfield pace all race and stroll/kvyat ending the race 3rd and 4th after 20 laps earlier being almost last


Definitely.
Gasly only purpose now is to flatter Verstappen. Granted he has his problems but it doesn't look like the team care and just focus on Verstappen.
Sainz Jr. has now almost the same points of Gasly and he is driving a McLaren !!!

Pierre could easily be the worst driver of the grid(at least this year). And no, the RB is not a slow car.

Gasly is an average driver but not a bad driver. Verstappen is so amazing that he’s making Gasly look bad, like Schumacher used to do with Irvine.

Personally I don’t rate Bottas that highly either. His race performances against an old Massa were very meh. Massa was regularly the quicker driver on Sunday.

So why did Bottas outscore him every season?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
KingVoid wrote:
Gasly won the GP2 title at the age of 20. Last season people were praising Gasly after his performances in Bahrain and Hungary. This idea that he’s now somehow the worst driver on the grid is complete nonsense. Therefore the argument that Gasly is bad and therefore we can’t rate Verstappen is BS.

Also, Gasly is not as good as Bottas. I never said he was.

We actually can't rate Gasly at F1 level because his only teammate before Verstappen was Hartley who like Gasly was a F1 rookie.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15579
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
In that case I wouldn't class Hamilton as being a ruthless driver, Verstappen clearly is.


I think in some ways you could he is. He'll do what he can to benefit himself (Abu Dhabi 2014 was very ruthless). He's just learnt that being risk averse is the best strategy to win a championship.

You lost me with Abu Dhabi 2014, also I'm comparing with how they drive presently.


Apologies. I meant Abu Dhabi 2016.

I think you have a funny version of what ruthless is when Hamilton was hoping that someone else might do the dirty for him so to speak, a ruthless driver does the dirty himself.


Oh come on it totally fits the definition. It's not a criticism at all. He did what he had to do and I respect him for that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think in some ways you could he is. He'll do what he can to benefit himself (Abu Dhabi 2014 was very ruthless). He's just learnt that being risk averse is the best strategy to win a championship.

You lost me with Abu Dhabi 2014, also I'm comparing with how they drive presently.


Apologies. I meant Abu Dhabi 2016.

I think you have a funny version of what ruthless is when Hamilton was hoping that someone else might do the dirty for him so to speak, a ruthless driver does the dirty himself.


Oh come on it totally fits the definition. It's not a criticism at all. He did what he had to do and I respect him for that.

Ruthless is what Schumacher did in 1994 and 1997 in title deciding races, in my book ruthless means that you will do just about anything.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15579
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You lost me with Abu Dhabi 2014, also I'm comparing with how they drive presently.


Apologies. I meant Abu Dhabi 2016.

I think you have a funny version of what ruthless is when Hamilton was hoping that someone else might do the dirty for him so to speak, a ruthless driver does the dirty himself.


Oh come on it totally fits the definition. It's not a criticism at all. He did what he had to do and I respect him for that.

Ruthless is what Schumacher did in 1994 and 1997 in title deciding races, in my book ruthless means that you will do just about anything.


They're both ruthless. Different degrees. Life isn't black and white.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2419
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Q. What do Gasly and Vandoorne have in common?
A. A top tier driver as a teammate making their lives hell


Making their top driver teammates look like they are doing miracles week in week out because the car is undriveable to them or they have psychological issues.

McLaren was slow and the RB is slow too.. the narrative is there for a reason.

The McLaren was slow! How was it not slow?!

Alonso >> Vandoorne
Verstappen >> Gasly

If Gasly/Vandoorne have psychological issues in dealing with a top level teammate then they're simply not cut out for the top themselves


That's what I said.
Verstappen is being flattered by Gasly just like Alonso with Vandoorne who did exactly 1 overtake in 3 years.

In Austria, with a competent driver in the other RB, Verstappen would not have won the race and would not have got a 11/10 score . It is all relative and a "lost" teammate can do wonders to a driver's reputation. ;)

Name the competent drivers you think would have stopped Max from winning the Austrian GP. If any of your answers are not Lewis Hamilton then I 100% believe you are wrong

Verstappen has already beaten competent drivers as teammates. Once he got on top of Ricciardo he had elevated himself into top tier status (where I had placed Ricciardo myself). The only other guy on the grid operating at that level is Hamilton - and even he has been less consistent than Max this year


Hamilton, vettel, leclerc, riccardo, bottas.

Anyone from the top teams basically

Then probably also some of those emerging talents in midfield cars such as Sainz, Norris, and then even drivers like Hulkenberg, Perez, but ofcourse we haven't seen how they perform in a leading car

But providing they didn't have a failure of a start and qualified anywhere around 4th/5th they would have had a huge gap to Verstappen.

You're acting like Riccardo didn't win races on merit when Verstappen was at red bull when he absolutely did (more even)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2566
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The amount of deflection to my question on this last page is incredible. :lol:

Hamilton has had two terrible races this season. Verstappen hasn’t had a single one. How can anyone claim that Hamilton has been better?

That’s like claiming that Hill was better than Schumacher in 1996. Not as extreme but the same logic.


Lol dude nobody has even debated against you that Verstappen isn't having a good season, what people are debating you on is that you're pushing your opinion as a matter of fact that Verstappen is faster and a generally a better driver than Hamilton on the basis of 10 races in which he has no performance comparator because Gasly is terrible.

This race went to Verstappen but you're forgetting that he also did a 360 and was fortunate to land it, I would now agree that after this race I'd say Verstappen has the slight edge (pre-germany it was Hamilton) in form, but this race did nothing to support Verstappen as being "faster" or as a whole "better" driver since he basically just happened into first place because of Merc stupidity with strat, and weather changes, equally just as Vettel finished 2nd after running at midfield pace all race and stroll/kvyat ending the race 3rd and 4th after 20 laps earlier being almost last


Definitely.
Gasly only purpose now is to flatter Verstappen. Granted he has his problems but it doesn't look like the team care and just focus on Verstappen.
Sainz Jr. has now almost the same points of Gasly and he is driving a McLaren !!!

Pierre could easily be the worst driver of the grid(at least this year). And no, the RB is not a slow car.

Gasly is an average driver but not a bad driver. Verstappen is so amazing that he’s making Gasly look bad, like Schumacher used to do with Irvine.

Personally I don’t rate Bottas that highly either. His race performances against an old Massa were very meh. Massa was regularly the quicker driver on Sunday.

So why did Bottas outscore him every season?

In 2014, Bottas was dead even with Massa and it was only some horrendous luck from Massa that helped Bottas finish so far in front.

In 2015, they were almost even.

2016, Bottas was better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2566
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
If Max is the best driver on the grid and Mercedes has the best car Max must be about to sign for them for next season. He wouldn't throw away a cert WDC by staying where he is would he?

If Hamilton is better than Vettel then why didn’t he just sign for Red Bull when Vettel was winning everything?

You joined the site in 2015 so I would be guessing that might be the extent of your F1 knowledge?

You never heard of Canada 2011 when Hamilton went to see Red Bull asking for a drive in full view of the worlds press?

The point of my argument is that the best driver doesn’t always end up in the best car.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2566
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Gasly won the GP2 title at the age of 20. Last season people were praising Gasly after his performances in Bahrain and Hungary. This idea that he’s now somehow the worst driver on the grid is complete nonsense. Therefore the argument that Gasly is bad and therefore we can’t rate Verstappen is BS.

Also, Gasly is not as good as Bottas. I never said he was.


It's not that he's the worst driver on the grid exactly, it's that he can't drive the red bull. The mere fact that you're trying to pass off Gasly's performances this season as average, when he's literally on the brink of being sacked after 11 races, shows how either deluded or how devoted to your point you are right now.

You need to take a step back because you MUST surely know Gasly is NOT performing to any kind of standard that can be considered even remotely close to "average".

I can't believe this debate can even be had

Do you think that the perception of Gasly would be the same if he had an average teammate alongside him this season?

How much of Gasly’s poor season is down to Verstappen just being amazing, and making Gasly look bad?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2419
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Gasly won the GP2 title at the age of 20. Last season people were praising Gasly after his performances in Bahrain and Hungary. This idea that he’s now somehow the worst driver on the grid is complete nonsense. Therefore the argument that Gasly is bad and therefore we can’t rate Verstappen is BS.

Also, Gasly is not as good as Bottas. I never said he was.


It's not that he's the worst driver on the grid exactly, it's that he can't drive the red bull. The mere fact that you're trying to pass off Gasly's performances this season as average, when he's literally on the brink of being sacked after 11 races, shows how either deluded or how devoted to your point you are right now.

You need to take a step back because you MUST surely know Gasly is NOT performing to any kind of standard that can be considered even remotely close to "average".

I can't believe this debate can even be had

Do you think that the perception of Gasly would be the same if he had an average teammate alongside him this season?

How much of Gasly’s poor season is down to Verstappen just being amazing, and making Gasly look bad?


Perception would be the same because it's clear the red bull is between 2nd and 3rd best car, far ahead of McLaren/Renault in 4TH yet gasly is qualifying, and racing behind them


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2566
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Gasly won the GP2 title at the age of 20. Last season people were praising Gasly after his performances in Bahrain and Hungary. This idea that he’s now somehow the worst driver on the grid is complete nonsense. Therefore the argument that Gasly is bad and therefore we can’t rate Verstappen is BS.

Also, Gasly is not as good as Bottas. I never said he was.


It's not that he's the worst driver on the grid exactly, it's that he can't drive the red bull. The mere fact that you're trying to pass off Gasly's performances this season as average, when he's literally on the brink of being sacked after 11 races, shows how either deluded or how devoted to your point you are right now.

You need to take a step back because you MUST surely know Gasly is NOT performing to any kind of standard that can be considered even remotely close to "average".

I can't believe this debate can even be had

Do you think that the perception of Gasly would be the same if he had an average teammate alongside him this season?

How much of Gasly’s poor season is down to Verstappen just being amazing, and making Gasly look bad?


Perception would be the same because it's clear the red bull is between 2nd and 3rd best car, far ahead of McLaren/Renault in 4TH yet gasly is qualifying, and racing behind them

If there was anyone other than Verstappen and maybe Hamilton driving the Red Bull, I’m convinced that no one would even consider it better than Ferrari.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2419
It's still CLEARLY better than the midfield pack yet Gasly is struggling to race them, I say again, there was a point where he was legitimately in last place on pure pace in hockenheim.

Gasly obviously isn't performing averagely, if you weren't trying to force your argument you would never have said that


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 713
Location: Scotland/Lancashire
I'm trying to think of last 25yrs examples of drivers landing in a top seat, potential race winning car..... and doing a worse job than Gasly.

I think Max is driving superbly just now, but Gasly is underperforming to - at least - the same level as Max is over performing.

_________________
I'm competing this season, if anyone is interested in how I am getting on.

Car #36 - Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Lol dude nobody has even debated against you that Verstappen isn't having a good season, what people are debating you on is that you're pushing your opinion as a matter of fact that Verstappen is faster and a generally a better driver than Hamilton on the basis of 10 races in which he has no performance comparator because Gasly is terrible.

This race went to Verstappen but you're forgetting that he also did a 360 and was fortunate to land it, I would now agree that after this race I'd say Verstappen has the slight edge (pre-germany it was Hamilton) in form, but this race did nothing to support Verstappen as being "faster" or as a whole "better" driver since he basically just happened into first place because of Merc stupidity with strat, and weather changes, equally just as Vettel finished 2nd after running at midfield pace all race and stroll/kvyat ending the race 3rd and 4th after 20 laps earlier being almost last


Definitely.
Gasly only purpose now is to flatter Verstappen. Granted he has his problems but it doesn't look like the team care and just focus on Verstappen.
Sainz Jr. has now almost the same points of Gasly and he is driving a McLaren !!!

Pierre could easily be the worst driver of the grid(at least this year). And no, the RB is not a slow car.

Gasly is an average driver but not a bad driver. Verstappen is so amazing that he’s making Gasly look bad, like Schumacher used to do with Irvine.

Personally I don’t rate Bottas that highly either. His race performances against an old Massa were very meh. Massa was regularly the quicker driver on Sunday.

So why did Bottas outscore him every season?

In 2014, Bottas was dead even with Massa and it was only some horrendous luck from Massa that helped Bottas finish so far in front.

In 2015, they were almost even.

2016, Bottas was better.

You said that Massa was regularly the quicker driver on Sunday, Massa is the driver that got replaced by Stroll and Bottas was kept on until Bottas was bought out of his contract by Mercedes which got Massa a reprieve, neither Williams or Mercedes agree with your assessment.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
If Max is the best driver on the grid and Mercedes has the best car Max must be about to sign for them for next season. He wouldn't throw away a cert WDC by staying where he is would he?

If Hamilton is better than Vettel then why didn’t he just sign for Red Bull when Vettel was winning everything?

You joined the site in 2015 so I would be guessing that might be the extent of your F1 knowledge?

You never heard of Canada 2011 when Hamilton went to see Red Bull asking for a drive in full view of the worlds press?

The point of my argument is that the best driver doesn’t always end up in the best car.

Fair enough I understand now, but unlike Verstappen, Hamilton wasn't given that option.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3753
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7615
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1952
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Badgeronimous wrote:
I'm trying to think of last 25yrs examples of drivers landing in a top seat, potential race winning car..... and doing a worse job than Gasly.

I think Max is driving superbly just now, but Gasly is under performing to - at least - the same level as Max is over performing.


The name that jumped straight into my mind when I read this, although it's slightly outside the 25 yr threshold, was Michael Andretti.

I think the '93 Macca was a little more competitive than the '19 RB, but Andretti was much more credentialed than Gasly. Andretti's foray into F1 was such an unmitigated disaster that he left the series after 13 races, ironically straight after gaining his best result of 3rd in Italy.

_________________
Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Hungary- 19) - 130 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 336 trophies available, 24 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7615
Jezza13 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
I'm trying to think of last 25yrs examples of drivers landing in a top seat, potential race winning car..... and doing a worse job than Gasly.

I think Max is driving superbly just now, but Gasly is under performing to - at least - the same level as Max is over performing.


The name that jumped straight into my mind when I read this, although it's slightly outside the 25 yr threshold, was Michael Andretti.

I think the '93 Macca was a little more competitive than the '19 RB, but Andretti was much more credentialed than Gasly. Andretti's foray into F1 was such an unmitigated disaster that he left the series after 13 races, ironically straight after gaining his best result of 3rd in Italy.

I was thinking of Kova, but he somehow managed a win!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2566
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.

RB have a lot more data on these drivers than we do. This suggests that Kvyat and Albon aren’t an upgrade on Gasly anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2566
So now Rosberg thinks that Verstappen would be beating Hamilton if he was in a Mercedes



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7615
KingVoid wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.

RB have a lot more data on these drivers than we do. This suggests that Kvyat and Albon aren’t an upgrade on Gasly anyway.

He didn't expand, so maybe they can see the data or maybe there is more money in Gasly. The issue is that Gasly seem to be under performing and Kvyat's driving is really good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7755
Location: Belgium
Siao7 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.

RB have a lot more data on these drivers than we do. This suggests that Kvyat and Albon aren’t an upgrade on Gasly anyway.

He didn't expand, so maybe they can see the data or maybe there is more money in Gasly. The issue is that Gasly seem to be under performing and Kvyat's driving is really good.
True. But there is no guarantee that transferring him into the present Red Bull would produce better results than Gasly's efforts. Pierre had a great season at Toro Rosso last year, on the strength of which he got the transfer in the first place.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3753
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.


Really? I wouldn’t put much stock in what Marko says though. Kvyat’s podium interview sounded like a sales pitch to me and it looks like he really wants to be back at Redbull. There is no reason not to promote him imo. Even if you stop comparing Gasly to Max he is simply making the Redbull look like a formula 1.5 car and he is also mistake prone. Kvyat is a guy that never looked that bad at Redbull, could beat Ricciardo on merit at times, did outscore him one year, but got demoted because Verstappen was waiting in the wings. He did fall apart after that but that’s understandable. He is very much an emotional driver but no doubt he can be very quick on his best day. He is also the most experienced Redbull driver. Think he deserves a shot and I think Redbull might give him that shot still. We shall see...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7615
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.

RB have a lot more data on these drivers than we do. This suggests that Kvyat and Albon aren’t an upgrade on Gasly anyway.

He didn't expand, so maybe they can see the data or maybe there is more money in Gasly. The issue is that Gasly seem to be under performing and Kvyat's driving is really good.
True. But there is no guarantee that transferring him into the present Red Bull would produce better results than Gasly's efforts. Pierre had a great season at Toro Rosso last year, on the strength of which he got the transfer in the first place.

True, you can't guarantee the results obviously


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7615
kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Redbull really needs to swap Kvyatt and Gasly after the summer break. I see that some people here want to make believe Gasly is an average driver. Well he is not. You put Kvyatt in the car and I am very confident he will be a lot closer to Max than Gasly is now.

I read yesterday that Helmut shot down that idea. It's not happening, Kvyat will not go to RB, not yet anyway.


Really? I wouldn’t put much stock in what Marko says though. Kvyat’s podium interview sounded like a sales pitch to me and it looks like he really wants to be back at Redbull. There is no reason not to promote him imo. Even if you stop comparing Gasly to Max he is simply making the Redbull look like a formula 1.5 car and he is also mistake prone. Kvyat is a guy that never looked that bad at Redbull, could beat Ricciardo on merit at times, did outscore him one year, but got demoted because Verstappen was waiting in the wings. He did fall apart after that but that’s understandable. He is very much an emotional driver but no doubt he can be very quick on his best day. He is also the most experienced Redbull driver. Think he deserves a shot and I think Redbull might give him that shot still. We shall see...

Oh yes, absolutely agree. It was an article that flashed on my phone's feed, but it wasn't saying much. In any case I thought Kvyat was quite good in RB, I thought he'd be slaughtered from Dan, but he actually did ok. I'm quite fond of him and his driving. Wasn't the case that he hit Vettel and then got axed from RB? An excuse really to promote Max. But anyway, I do not like mid-season changes, so I hope he continues like this and next year he can make it back to the RB seat. Not too many success come back stories in F1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1241
Location: UK
Gasly has no results to show for his recent efforts but he has shown glimpses of real pace, I think there is more to come from him. A swap would be premature IMV.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7615
Option or Prime wrote:
Gasly has no results to show for his recent efforts but he has shown glimpses of real pace, I think there is more to come from him. A swap would be premature IMV.

Well, since he got the special engine maps that Max has, he has been faster. So it would be unfair to judge him based on his first 1/3 of the season. But his racecraft is just not convincing so far. Kvyat is fast, he can overtake, he can get the podiums and I think (I am not entirely sure) he is ok in the wet.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15579
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Gasly has no results to show for his recent efforts but he has shown glimpses of real pace, I think there is more to come from him. A swap would be premature IMV.

Well, since he got the special engine maps that Max has, he has been faster. So it would be unfair to judge him based on his first 1/3 of the season. But his racecraft is just not convincing so far. Kvyat is fast, he can overtake, he can get the podiums and I think (I am not entirely sure) he is ok in the wet.


He was better than Ricciardo in the wet (not that, that is a huge compliment in itself).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32098
Siao7 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Gasly has no results to show for his recent efforts but he has shown glimpses of real pace, I think there is more to come from him. A swap would be premature IMV.

Well, since he got the special engine maps that Max has, he has been faster. So it would be unfair to judge him based on his first 1/3 of the season. But his racecraft is just not convincing so far. Kvyat is fast, he can overtake, he can get the podiums and I think (I am not entirely sure) he is ok in the wet.

He has looked closer in the last two qualifying sessions, I'd see how Gasly goes in Hungary and if he's reasonable close with Verstappen I'd stick with him, however if he is nowhere again then the summer break might be the time to swap Gasly with Kvyat.

At the end of the day Red Bull are trying to find which driver is going to be Verstappen's closest teammate, there can only be one so to speak and swapping drivers about maybe speeds up that process?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 10248
Location: Ireland
FormulaFun wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Making their top driver teammates look like they are doing miracles week in week out because the car is undriveable to them or they have psychological issues.

McLaren was slow and the RB is slow too.. the narrative is there for a reason.

The McLaren was slow! How was it not slow?!

Alonso >> Vandoorne
Verstappen >> Gasly

If Gasly/Vandoorne have psychological issues in dealing with a top level teammate then they're simply not cut out for the top themselves


That's what I said.
Verstappen is being flattered by Gasly just like Alonso with Vandoorne who did exactly 1 overtake in 3 years.

In Austria, with a competent driver in the other RB, Verstappen would not have won the race and would not have got a 11/10 score . It is all relative and a "lost" teammate can do wonders to a driver's reputation. ;)

Name the competent drivers you think would have stopped Max from winning the Austrian GP. If any of your answers are not Lewis Hamilton then I 100% believe you are wrong

Verstappen has already beaten competent drivers as teammates. Once he got on top of Ricciardo he had elevated himself into top tier status (where I had placed Ricciardo myself). The only other guy on the grid operating at that level is Hamilton - and even he has been less consistent than Max this year


Hamilton, vettel, leclerc, riccardo, bottas.

Anyone from the top teams basically

Then probably also some of those emerging talents in midfield cars such as Sainz, Norris, and then even drivers like Hulkenberg, Perez, but ofcourse we haven't seen how they perform in a leading car

But providing they didn't have a failure of a start and qualified anywhere around 4th/5th they would have had a huge gap to Verstappen.

You're acting like Riccardo didn't win races on merit when Verstappen was at red bull when he absolutely did (more even)

Not sure why you'd include the Ferrari drivers in that list, especially Leclerc. He had the fastest car, a 6-car lead over Verstappen on Lap 1 and still lost the race

A fair point overall though that, due to Max bogging down off the line, a good driver should have beaten him home. Dan won races when Max had issues - Verstappen's startline mishap may have been enough to give someone like Ricciardo the edge

I'm not in the least bit convinced that any of the Sainz/Norris/Hulk/Perez group would beat him home though, with or without the startline issue. He really is a fair chunk better than them and was on absolute fire in Austria

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7136
Location: Michigan, USA
mcdo wrote:
I'm not in the least bit convinced that any of the Sainz/Norris/Hulk/Perez group would beat him home though, with or without the startline issue. He really is a fair chunk better than them and was on absolute fire in Austria

Take it for what it's worth, but Norris and Verstappen are teammates in the virtual racing world, and they are quite equally matched in iRacing. It's not a 100% translation, but they're both dedicated sim racers, with a similar level of experience and (of course) an equal car.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2419
mcdo wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
That's what I said.
Verstappen is being flattered by Gasly just like Alonso with Vandoorne who did exactly 1 overtake in 3 years.

In Austria, with a competent driver in the other RB, Verstappen would not have won the race and would not have got a 11/10 score . It is all relative and a "lost" teammate can do wonders to a driver's reputation. ;)

Name the competent drivers you think would have stopped Max from winning the Austrian GP. If any of your answers are not Lewis Hamilton then I 100% believe you are wrong

Verstappen has already beaten competent drivers as teammates. Once he got on top of Ricciardo he had elevated himself into top tier status (where I had placed Ricciardo myself). The only other guy on the grid operating at that level is Hamilton - and even he has been less consistent than Max this year


Hamilton, vettel, leclerc, riccardo, bottas.

Anyone from the top teams basically

Then probably also some of those emerging talents in midfield cars such as Sainz, Norris, and then even drivers like Hulkenberg, Perez, but ofcourse we haven't seen how they perform in a leading car

But providing they didn't have a failure of a start and qualified anywhere around 4th/5th they would have had a huge gap to Verstappen.

You're acting like Riccardo didn't win races on merit when Verstappen was at red bull when he absolutely did (more even)

Not sure why you'd include the Ferrari drivers in that list, especially Leclerc. He had the fastest car, a 6-car lead over Verstappen on Lap 1 and still lost the race

A fair point overall though that, due to Max bogging down off the line, a good driver should have beaten him home. Dan won races when Max had issues - Verstappen's startline mishap may have been enough to give someone like Ricciardo the edge

I'm not in the least bit convinced that any of the Sainz/Norris/Hulk/Perez group would beat him home though, with or without the startline issue. He really is a fair chunk better than them and was on absolute fire in Austria


Leclerc was in the Ferrari though so its not a fair comparison, although I agree on the day he over-managed his race, but I would say that blame probably equally with the Ferrari strategy wall

I don't think it's fair to say he is a chunk better of Sainz & Norris, we haven't seen much of Norris yet (I rate him quite highly already but perhaps I am biased cus I really like the kid) & Sainz has come on greatly in the last couple of years, Hulk and Perez i would be skeptical as well because he is clearly better than the both of those - but as you mention, that doesn't matter too much. My point was more around knocking down this idea that Verstappen is having a perfect season when in reality it just appears this way in the face of a teammate like Gasly who flatters Verstappen despite his mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 10248
Location: Ireland
FormulaFun wrote:
mcdo wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
That's what I said.
Verstappen is being flattered by Gasly just like Alonso with Vandoorne who did exactly 1 overtake in 3 years.

In Austria, with a competent driver in the other RB, Verstappen would not have won the race and would not have got a 11/10 score . It is all relative and a "lost" teammate can do wonders to a driver's reputation. ;)

Name the competent drivers you think would have stopped Max from winning the Austrian GP. If any of your answers are not Lewis Hamilton then I 100% believe you are wrong

Verstappen has already beaten competent drivers as teammates. Once he got on top of Ricciardo he had elevated himself into top tier status (where I had placed Ricciardo myself). The only other guy on the grid operating at that level is Hamilton - and even he has been less consistent than Max this year


Hamilton, vettel, leclerc, riccardo, bottas.

Anyone from the top teams basically

Then probably also some of those emerging talents in midfield cars such as Sainz, Norris, and then even drivers like Hulkenberg, Perez, but ofcourse we haven't seen how they perform in a leading car

But providing they didn't have a failure of a start and qualified anywhere around 4th/5th they would have had a huge gap to Verstappen.

You're acting like Riccardo didn't win races on merit when Verstappen was at red bull when he absolutely did (more even)

Not sure why you'd include the Ferrari drivers in that list, especially Leclerc. He had the fastest car, a 6-car lead over Verstappen on Lap 1 and still lost the race

A fair point overall though that, due to Max bogging down off the line, a good driver should have beaten him home. Dan won races when Max had issues - Verstappen's startline mishap may have been enough to give someone like Ricciardo the edge

I'm not in the least bit convinced that any of the Sainz/Norris/Hulk/Perez group would beat him home though, with or without the startline issue. He really is a fair chunk better than them and was on absolute fire in Austria


Leclerc was in the Ferrari though so its not a fair comparison, although I agree on the day he over-managed his race, but I would say that blame probably equally with the Ferrari strategy wall

I don't think it's fair to say he is a chunk better of Sainz & Norris, we haven't seen much of Norris yet (I rate him quite highly already but perhaps I am biased cus I really like the kid) & Sainz has come on greatly in the last couple of years, Hulk and Perez i would be skeptical as well because he is clearly better than the both of those - but as you mention, that doesn't matter too much. My point was more around knocking down this idea that Verstappen is having a perfect season when in reality it just appears this way in the face of a teammate like Gasly who flatters Verstappen despite his mistakes.

I'm not 100% convinced on Sainz after his Renault stint. I'm happy for him finding himself way out in front of F1.5 right now as he seems to be a genuinely nice guy. But I can't help but feel a Hulk or a Perez would be there too in that McLaren, maybe even further ahead. Norris has the bigger potential IMO - he's such a welcome addition to the grid!

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 10248
Location: Ireland
Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I'm not in the least bit convinced that any of the Sainz/Norris/Hulk/Perez group would beat him home though, with or without the startline issue. He really is a fair chunk better than them and was on absolute fire in Austria

Take it for what it's worth, but Norris and Verstappen are teammates in the virtual racing world, and they are quite equally matched in iRacing. It's not a 100% translation, but they're both dedicated sim racers, with a similar level of experience and (of course) an equal car.

Their Spa 24 Hrs post-race celebrations were priceless

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DOLOMITE, sidders and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group