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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:13 am 
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Vettels recent woes got me thinking about other periods when great drivers had awful runs of results. I don't mean end of career slump, I mean a bad seasons or half season in the middle of their peaks. Which one was the worst? Which ones did I miss?

Vettel; 2018/2019
Probably the very start of his is Baku 2018 and the SC restart when he went for broke to take the lead back and dropped to 4th. He then got himself a grid penalty for blocking in France and has had 8 race spins or accidents since.

Hamilton; 2011
Hamilton actually had a good start to 2011 but you his crash antics began at Monaco when he started 9th due to not setting a time. He had 2-3 collisions in the that race and got a penalty. The next race he retired after going into the wall when overtaking Button. Hungary, he spun and lost the lead as it began to rain. Belgium he crashed out when lapping Kobayashi and during the 2nd half of the year he collidied with Felipe Massa 5 times I beleive. Hamilton got more penalties and had more collisions in 2011 than 2007-2010 combined.

Schumacher; 2003
The year he had the smallest gap in points to Barrichello and with Rubens having 4 none faults DNFs to his 0. If Rubens had finished a few more races he might have been beaten and if Micahel had 4 DNFs and Rubens 0, then Rubens definitely would have beat him. He made race errors in Australia, Brazil, Malaysia, Hungary and Japan. Right in the middle of the title run in, Barrichello out paced him for 3 consecutive races too.

Prost 1989;
Yes he did win the title, but his pace that year was terrible. Arguably due to Senna now getting special treatment but Prosts pace in both qualifying and races was very poor and he only won the title as Senna had 9 none finishes (nearly all mechanical issues from the lead) in 16 races.

Anybody else for inclusion? Agree? Disagree?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:26 am 
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He might not be a great yet but if this thread had been made in 10/15 years time, I think we would've been looking back on Verstappen's first six races from 2018. Firstly, a mistake in Australia that damaged his car whilst trying to get past Magnussen. He then crashed in Q1 in Bahrain. At China he made a mistake defending and then followed that up by hitting Vettel, costing himself a potential race win. There was the collision with Ricciardo in Baku that he takes at least some of the blame for. Contact with Stroll in Spain, whilst not being something that affected his race, was another minor blemish, and then there was the crash in P3 in Monaco that meant he missed quali. Six race weekends in a row without a clean one.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:38 am 
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I suppose some of Mika Hakkinen's 2001 season might well qualify too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:15 am 
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I think with Vettel if it goes on much longer the Red Bull years might be viewed as a case of a good run from a not-great driver..

That's harsh, you don't luck into 4 WDC's. Point I guess I'm trying to make is if the bad runs are significant they should form part of the overall assessment of "greatness"

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:32 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
I think with Vettel if it goes on much longer the Red Bull years might be viewed as a case of a good run from a not-great driver..

That's harsh, you don't luck into 4 WDC's. Point I guess I'm trying to make is if the bad runs are significant they should form part of the overall assessment of "greatness"


Yes I think how he compares to Leclerc, once Leclerc gets up to speed will define Vettel's legacy a lot. He already has the Ricciardo year question mark and now since 2016 he has this race craft errors question mark... but his records against Webber and Raikkonen were superb. If Leclerc gets on top of him, Vettel would be in a lower tier of great as the others mentionned above, i.e. Prost, Schumacher and Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:36 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
I suppose some of Mika Hakkinen's 2001 season might well qualify too.


Yes, I nearly did put that in but I think it was a case of end of career, motivation gone. Much like Damon Hills 1999 too. Hill wanted to retire mid sesaon in 1999 but had to stay as Eddie Jordan had a lot of sponsor contracts that relied on Hill being in the car.

Mika had an awful start to 2001 and was out of the title after as few as 4 races, the break down from the lead on the last lap in spain, race 5, pretty much ended his motivation and career.

He was 4-1 up in qualifying against Coulthard up until that point, after that Coulthard dominated him and Mika's head was down in and out of the car.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:01 am 
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Kimi in the 2nd half of 2008?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:09 pm 
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Vettel 2014. Got beat over the season by Dan and didn't win a race I think?

Can't remember the specifics but I'd put this down as a bad year for him.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I suppose some of Mika Hakkinen's 2001 season might well qualify too.


Yes, I nearly did put that in but I think it was a case of end of career, motivation gone. Much like Damon Hills 1999 too. Hill wanted to retire mid sesaon in 1999 but had to stay as Eddie Jordan had a lot of sponsor contracts that relied on Hill being in the car...

Hill didn't exactly have a stellar 1995 either, if I recall correctly. I what should have been the best car he managed to crash out of a number of races, taking Schumacher out with him at least on one such occasion. Finished 2nd in the WDC, but a long way off Schuey.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Senna in 92' wasn't very good. Prost, ironically, in 89' looked often like a #2 driver by comparison to Senna. Schumacher in 03'. Hamilton in 11'. Alonso in 04'. Ricciardo in 15'. Verstappen certainly struggled mightily to start the 18' season and I think Ricciardo's terrible reliability paints a slightly inaccurate picture of that season as a whole. Mika Hakkinen was terrible in 01'. Kimi Raikkonen in 08' was just awful. I've never seen a worse title defense from someone who still had the best car.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:58 pm 
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That 1980 spotted some of the most beautiful F1 cars ever, and became known as well for the dawn of the great pilots: Andretti, Fittipaldi, Scheckter, all of them had abysmal season. Reutemann and Watson too, for their standards.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:47 pm 
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Vettel '14-'19

Worst spell from a top driver I have ever seen. If you only watched these season without any knowledge of pre-2013, you'd be left scratching your head how he is leading a front end team. Special mention to '18 where he threw away a certain WDC through the worst driving I have ever witnessed from a top driver. '18 has to be the worst season in Formula 1 by a top driver during his prime.

Alonso '04, '07 and '10

One he had a meltdown. The other was just plain below average driving and mistakes. 04 was just him being slow.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:50 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
I think with Vettel if it goes on much longer the Red Bull years might be viewed as a case of a good run from a not-great driver..

That's harsh, you don't luck into 4 WDC's. Point I guess I'm trying to make is if the bad runs are significant they should form part of the overall assessment of "greatness"


I always rated Vettel the same as Hamilton and Alonso. Now I am having to reevaluate that. Vettel simply isn't in the same class as Hamilton. And might be a rung below Alonso too. It's always sad when you rate a driver highly and it turns out it's just not true. Happened with Kimi too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:51 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel '14-'19

Worst spell from a top driver I have ever seen. If you only watched these season without any knowledge of pre-2013, you'd be left scratching your head how he is leading a front end team. Special mention to '18 where he threw away a certain WDC through the worst driving I have ever witnessed from a top driver. '18 has to be the worst season in Formula 1 by a top driver during his prime.

Alonso '04, '07 and '10

One he had a meltdown. The other was just plain below average driving and mistakes. 04 was just him being slow.


2015 was very good from Vettel. But it suited him, he was in a no-mans land of being in the clear 2nd fastest car and a lot better than his team mate. The car was miles behind Mercedes but miles ahead of Red Bull/Williams. Kind of similar to his Red Bull days, he didn't have strong competition and brought it home 3rd most weeks or 2nd if one of the Mercedes had something go wrong or the win if they both messed up.

His first half to 2017 was also very very good and 2017 overall to an extent - that was in a close battle with Hamilton too. That was probably the only time he has looked without any doubt a top tier driver since 2013.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
I suppose some of Mika Hakkinen's 2001 season might well qualify too.


Yes, I nearly did put that in but I think it was a case of end of career, motivation gone. Much like Damon Hills 1999 too. Hill wanted to retire mid sesaon in 1999 but had to stay as Eddie Jordan had a lot of sponsor contracts that relied on Hill being in the car.


I think I remember something about Hill having issues coming to grips with the four grooved tyres too. But certainly motivation vanished too. He retired a healthy car in his final race.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:42 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Kimi in the 2nd half of 2008?


Agreed. I would say that between Monaco 2008 and Hungary 2009 was Kimi phoning it in. He picked his game up to lead the team after Massa's injury in fairness to him. 2014 was also horrible for him as Alonso was determined to humiliate him.

Jenson Button in the second half of 2009 was a real frustration. The car won a couple of races with Barrichello but Button never seemed quite able to get to grips with tyre temps after he won his 6th race of the season. His 2012 season was almost non existent between Australia and Belgium.

Niki Lauda had a woeful 1979 season that prompted his forst retirement.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel '14-'19

Worst spell from a top driver I have ever seen. If you only watched these season without any knowledge of pre-2013, you'd be left scratching your head how he is leading a front end team. Special mention to '18 where he threw away a certain WDC through the worst driving I have ever witnessed from a top driver. '18 has to be the worst season in Formula 1 by a top driver during his prime.

Alonso '04, '07 and '10

One he had a meltdown. The other was just plain below average driving and mistakes. 04 was just him being slow.


2015 was very good from Vettel. But it suited him, he was in a no-mans land of being in the clear 2nd fastest car and a lot better than his team mate. The car was miles behind Mercedes but miles ahead of Red Bull/Williams. Kind of similar to his Red Bull days, he didn't have strong competition and brought it home 3rd most weeks or 2nd if one of the Mercedes had something go wrong or the win if they both messed up.

His first half to 2017 was also very very good and 2017 overall to an extent - that was in a close battle with Hamilton too. That was probably the only time he has looked without any doubt a top tier driver since 2013.


2015 was neither here nor there. Given that Vettel cracks under pressure, there's nothing to be too happy about in 2015 since he was in no man's land.

2017 started great. He tested the tires for Pirelli and that really showed. A true top driver stuff. But he unraveled as the season went on. 2017 was a winnable season, but he would have had to put the best performance of all time to win it. But was possible. 2018 went downhill even further and a certain WDC was thrown away. I blame Ferrari for keep on supporting Vettel. It's good to support a driver, but if he keeps making mistake after mistake after mistake, a time comes when you have to do something about it.

But in totality, 2015-2019 paints a picture of a very average driver.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:57 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Johnson wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Vettel '14-'19

Worst spell from a top driver I have ever seen. If you only watched these season without any knowledge of pre-2013, you'd be left scratching your head how he is leading a front end team. Special mention to '18 where he threw away a certain WDC through the worst driving I have ever witnessed from a top driver. '18 has to be the worst season in Formula 1 by a top driver during his prime.

Alonso '04, '07 and '10

One he had a meltdown. The other was just plain below average driving and mistakes. 04 was just him being slow.


2015 was very good from Vettel. But it suited him, he was in a no-mans land of being in the clear 2nd fastest car and a lot better than his team mate. The car was miles behind Mercedes but miles ahead of Red Bull/Williams. Kind of similar to his Red Bull days, he didn't have strong competition and brought it home 3rd most weeks or 2nd if one of the Mercedes had something go wrong or the win if they both messed up.

His first half to 2017 was also very very good and 2017 overall to an extent - that was in a close battle with Hamilton too. That was probably the only time he has looked without any doubt a top tier driver since 2013.


2015 was neither here nor there. Given that Vettel cracks under pressure, there's nothing to be too happy about in 2015 since he was in no man's land.

2017 started great. He tested the tires for Pirelli and that really showed. A true top driver stuff. But he unraveled as the season went on. 2017 was a winnable season, but he would have had to put the best performance of all time to win it. But was possible. 2018 went downhill even further and a certain WDC was thrown away. I blame Ferrari for keep on supporting Vettel. It's good to support a driver, but if he keeps making mistake after mistake after mistake, a time comes when you have to do something about it.

But in totality, 2015-2019 paints a picture of a very average driver.


I think Vettel's been making far too many mistakes for a top tier driver since 2016. I don't consider it a bad run anymore. It's just his usual.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:58 am 
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Vettel made a ton of errors 2008-2010 too, he earned the nickname crashkid. 2011 was a big upturn from that and he carried it on 2012 and 2013. But that’s only 3 seasons. Plus 2015 too.

The usual is a lot of errors, first time around he had the inexperience excuse.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:58 am 
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I'll just say it.

Vettel has never been a top tier driver. He crumbles under pressure and the reason he has 4 championships is because in 2010. Everyone crumbled around him 2012. Alonso had the worst luck ever In brazil and the other years had the most dominant car in the field. (Was it 2011 when he strung 8 on the bounce too end the year)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:36 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Vettel made a ton of errors 2008-2010 too, he earned the nickname crashkid. 2011 was a big upturn from that and he carried it on 2012 and 2013. But that’s only 3 seasons. Plus 2015 too.

The usual is a lot of errors, first time around he had the inexperience excuse.



I remember being at Spa in 2010 and thinking he would never be WDC with all these errors. Obvious he proved me wrong but cracking under pressure seems to be a common theme, starting way back at Fuji in 2007, for which he was partly responsible.

I'd say his worst run was definitely 2014. In 2018 he made a lot of mistakes but in 2014 he was just plain slow. Dan came straight in and qualified second in the first race, whilst Seb was 13th.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:59 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Kimi in the 2nd half of 2008?


Agreed. I would say that between Monaco 2008 and Hungary 2009 was Kimi phoning it in. He picked his game up to lead the team after Massa's injury in fairness to him. 2014 was also horrible for him as Alonso was determined to humiliate him.
I don't understand what you mean by "phoning it in", but isn't it fascinating that even with what Kimi himself points out as a sh*t car in 2009, his fortunes turn around after the team is forced to rally behind him instead of Massa? Also think back to early 2008, when Ferrari openly stated they were after Alonso. Poor reliability may have hampered Räikkönen initially that year, but taking the development of the car away from his driving style - which they certainly had understood enough by then, even if they didn't when signing him - places the ball in the team's court, not his.

Looking at the team rather than simply a bad run from a driver is also what I take from Lauda, when he wrote about his 1985 season. His skills weren't diminished, though his motivation will have suffered when having to battle the best driver in the world. But he pointed first and foremost to Ron Dennis. Look at Prost in 1989, and the parallels are there.

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Jenson Button in the second half of 2009 was a real frustration. The car won a couple of races with Barrichello but Button never seemed quite able to get to grips with tyre temps after he won his 6th race of the season.
Car development, and how the product is taken to or away from your driving style. Adaptation by the driver only goes so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:08 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Vettel made a ton of errors 2008-2010 too, he earned the nickname crashkid. 2011 was a big upturn from that and he carried it on 2012 and 2013. But that’s only 3 seasons. Plus 2015 too.

The usual is a lot of errors, first time around he had the inexperience excuse.



I remember being at Spa in 2010 and thinking he would never be WDC with all these errors. Obvious he proved me wrong but cracking under pressure seems to be a common theme, starting way back at Fuji in 2007, for which he was partly responsible.

I'd say his worst run was definitely 2014. In 2018 he made a lot of mistakes but in 2014 he was just plain slow. Dan came straight in and qualified second in the first race, whilst Seb was 13th.
Again, changes to the Technical Rules, which took the car in a different direction than his skill set was optimal for. He made a remark late last year about the feeling of his car, with reference to aerodynamics.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:32 am 
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Yes Buttons 2009 second half is a good called. Actually one of the very worst because he was in the thick of a title fight and had just had the best first 7 races in F1 history, 6 wins, one 3rd.

He also had an even worse spell for about 5-6 races during 2012.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:33 am 
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If you give Vettel a car and situation he is happy with, I've no doubt he will deliver again. I think some of his Ferrari errors are down to trying too hard, and I don't think the enviroment there is a good one for a lead driver atm.

You could sign a superstar footballer, and play him in a system that doesn't suit him and he may look average. Other players are great at adapting.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:40 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
If you give Vettel a car and situation he is happy with, I've no doubt he will deliver again. I think some of his Ferrari errors are down to trying too hard, and I don't think the enviroment there is a good one for a lead driver atm.

You could sign a superstar footballer, and play him in a system that doesn't suit him and he may look average. Other players are great at adapting.


Possibly, it would depend on his team mate. Horners comments in late 2013 are starting to look more and more accurate.

At the Silverstone driver shoot out, Vergne vs Ricciardo for the Red Bull 2014 seat. Red Bull tried there best to simulate the exact conditions that Vettel had set his best time in. They adjusted the data and Horner stated that Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Vettel in the 2013 Red Bull. The car Vettel won 9 straight races in. Horner said that before the 2014 season and Ricciardo went on to have that kind of gap generally.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:57 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
If you give Vettel a car and situation he is happy with, I've no doubt he will deliver again. I think some of his Ferrari errors are down to trying too hard, and I don't think the enviroment there is a good one for a lead driver atm.

You could sign a superstar footballer, and play him in a system that doesn't suit him and he may look average. Other players are great at adapting.


Possibly, it would depend on his team mate. Horners comments in late 2013 are starting to look more and more accurate.

At the Silverstone driver shoot out, Vergne vs Ricciardo for the Red Bull 2014 seat. Red Bull tried there best to simulate the exact conditions that Vettel had set his best time in. They adjusted the data and Horner stated that Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Vettel in the 2013 Red Bull. The car Vettel won 9 straight races in. Horner said that before the 2014 season and Ricciardo went on to have that kind of gap generally.


Why do people invoke this, you can never recreate the conditions also the track rubbers in well after the race weekend also not under race conditions the car is different.

Since then no car/driver combo has shown the kind of performance Redbull and Vettel showed in '13, paying attention particularly to Suzuka, best driver/race engineer execution of a race.

I think you need to put your dislike for Vettel aside and re watch that season to appreciate what both team and driver achieved together.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
If you give Vettel a car and situation he is happy with, I've no doubt he will deliver again. I think some of his Ferrari errors are down to trying too hard, and I don't think the enviroment there is a good one for a lead driver atm.

You could sign a superstar footballer, and play him in a system that doesn't suit him and he may look average. Other players are great at adapting.


Possibly, it would depend on his team mate. Horners comments in late 2013 are starting to look more and more accurate.

At the Silverstone driver shoot out, Vergne vs Ricciardo for the Red Bull 2014 seat. Red Bull tried there best to simulate the exact conditions that Vettel had set his best time in. They adjusted the data and Horner stated that Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Vettel in the 2013 Red Bull. The car Vettel won 9 straight races in. Horner said that before the 2014 season and Ricciardo went on to have that kind of gap generally.


Why do people invoke this, you can never recreate the conditions also the track rubbers in well after the race weekend also not under race conditions the car is different.

Since then no car/driver combo has shown the kind of performance Redbull and Vettel showed in '13, paying attention particularly to Suzuka, best driver/race engineer execution of a race.

I think you need to put your dislike for Vettel aside and re watch that season to appreciate what both team and driver achieved together.


Horner, head of Red Bull who consulted his engineering team who at that point had no reason to undermine his freshly crowned 4 times world champion - the opposite in fact VS you, a Vettel fan with no data.

2013 was possibly past it Webber? Webber says in his autiobriography that his motivation went in 2012 and doing 2013 was a mistake but as soon as he knew he was leaving F1 and he had I think 5 races left in his career he completely went 100 percent all in again, the motivation came back as he knew he was getting out.

Suzuka as a great Vettel performance, sure it was pretty good but a 38 year old Webber out qualified him that weekend and wasn't far off race pace wise.
In that final run of 5 races, Webber took 2 poles and less than 0.1 off in USA. I don't think Vettel was doing anything special, Webber was way passed it and never a top driver anyway..


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
If you give Vettel a car and situation he is happy with, I've no doubt he will deliver again. I think some of his Ferrari errors are down to trying too hard, and I don't think the enviroment there is a good one for a lead driver atm.

You could sign a superstar footballer, and play him in a system that doesn't suit him and he may look average. Other players are great at adapting.


Possibly, it would depend on his team mate. Horners comments in late 2013 are starting to look more and more accurate.

At the Silverstone driver shoot out, Vergne vs Ricciardo for the Red Bull 2014 seat. Red Bull tried there best to simulate the exact conditions that Vettel had set his best time in. They adjusted the data and Horner stated that Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Vettel in the 2013 Red Bull. The car Vettel won 9 straight races in. Horner said that before the 2014 season and Ricciardo went on to have that kind of gap generally.


Why do people invoke this, you can never recreate the conditions also the track rubbers in well after the race weekend also not under race conditions the car is different.

Since then no car/driver combo has shown the kind of performance Redbull and Vettel showed in '13, paying attention particularly to Suzuka, best driver/race engineer execution of a race.

I think you need to put your dislike for Vettel aside and re watch that season to appreciate what both team and driver achieved together.


Horner, head of Red Bull who consulted his engineering team who at that point had no reason to undermine his freshly crowned 4 times world champion - the opposite in fact VS you, a Vettel fan with no data.

2013 was possibly past it Webber? Webber says in his autiobriography that his motivation went in 2012 and doing 2013 was a mistake but as soon as he knew he was leaving F1 and he had I think 5 races left in his career he completely went 100 percent all in again, the motivation came back as he knew he was getting out.

Suzuka as a great Vettel performance, sure it was pretty good but a 38 year old Webber out qualified him that weekend and wasn't far off race pace wise.
In that final run of 5 races, Webber took 2 poles and less than 0.1 off in USA. I don't think Vettel was doing anything special, Webber was way passed it and never a top driver anyway..


Provide a quote exactly where Horner said that, its illogical everyone knows a race track gets faster after a race weekend, yet to see a test where the car was slower on the monday after the race.

The rest of your reply basically is lack of comprehension.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
If you give Vettel a car and situation he is happy with, I've no doubt he will deliver again. I think some of his Ferrari errors are down to trying too hard, and I don't think the enviroment there is a good one for a lead driver atm.

You could sign a superstar footballer, and play him in a system that doesn't suit him and he may look average. Other players are great at adapting.


Possibly, it would depend on his team mate. Horners comments in late 2013 are starting to look more and more accurate.

At the Silverstone driver shoot out, Vergne vs Ricciardo for the Red Bull 2014 seat. Red Bull tried there best to simulate the exact conditions that Vettel had set his best time in. They adjusted the data and Horner stated that Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Vettel in the 2013 Red Bull. The car Vettel won 9 straight races in. Horner said that before the 2014 season and Ricciardo went on to have that kind of gap generally.


Why do people invoke this, you can never recreate the conditions also the track rubbers in well after the race weekend also not under race conditions the car is different.

Since then no car/driver combo has shown the kind of performance Redbull and Vettel showed in '13, paying attention particularly to Suzuka, best driver/race engineer execution of a race.

I think you need to put your dislike for Vettel aside and re watch that season to appreciate what both team and driver achieved together.


Horner, head of Red Bull who consulted his engineering team who at that point had no reason to undermine his freshly crowned 4 times world champion - the opposite in fact VS you, a Vettel fan with no data.

2013 was possibly past it Webber? Webber says in his autiobriography that his motivation went in 2012 and doing 2013 was a mistake but as soon as he knew he was leaving F1 and he had I think 5 races left in his career he completely went 100 percent all in again, the motivation came back as he knew he was getting out.

Suzuka as a great Vettel performance, sure it was pretty good but a 38 year old Webber out qualified him that weekend and wasn't far off race pace wise.
In that final run of 5 races, Webber took 2 poles and less than 0.1 off in USA. I don't think Vettel was doing anything special, Webber was way passed it and never a top driver anyway..


Provide a quote exactly where Horner said that, its illogical everyone knows a race track gets faster after a race weekend, yet to see a test where the car was slower on the monday after the race.

The rest of your reply basically is lack of comprehension.


Lack of comprehension? Vettel was hardly any quicker than Webber in the 2013 run in. I see you side stepped that one. Do you ignore any evidence contrary to your opinion? Why was Vettel getting out qualified by 37 year old Webber? I don't see a 37 year old Webber out qualifying Ricciardo.

Like I said, I will take Horner over you. The same reason I would take Usian Bolt's opinion on running over your too or Federer about Tennis... The Horner comments are well known and repeated numerous times. By the way, Ricciardo was quicker than 0.2 than Vettel, they adjusted the times to arrive at the 0.2 figure which was confirmed throughout 2014. Did you watch all of 2014?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Provide a quote exactly where Horner said that, its illogical everyone knows a race track gets faster after a race weekend, yet to see a test where the car was slower on the monday after the race.

The rest of your reply basically is lack of comprehension.


Lack of comprehension? Vettel was hardly any quicker than Webber in the 2013 run in. I see you side stepped that one. Do you ignore any evidence contrary to your opinion? Why was Vettel getting out qualified by 37 year old Webber? I don't see a 37 year old Webber out qualifying Ricciardo.

Like I said, I will take Horner over you. The same reason I would take Usian Bolt's opinion on running over your too or Federer about Tennis... The Horner comments are well known and repeated numerous times. By the way, Ricciardo was quicker than 0.2 than Vettel, they adjusted the times to arrive at the 0.2 figure which was confirmed throughout 2014. Did you watch all of 2014?


You have still not provided a quote or an article showing Horner said that, since it is well known as it will be an illogical thing for a team principal to say.



As for the bolded part never mind!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:30 pm 
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This was the initial article and then Horner said in numerous TV interviews afterwards that they knew Ricciardo was faster than Vettel from that test.

"The basic speed, Red Bull insist, is not in doubt. Horner mentioned to 5 live that one of the determining factors in Ricciardo's appointment was what he described as a "really impressive" test for the team at Silverstone in July.

He did not go into detail, but privately Red Bull insiders have. This writer has been briefed that in a car of comparative specification - same fuel load, tyres, etc - and in similar conditions (albeit on a different day), Ricciardo was 0.2 seconds faster than Vettel at that test."


Also, a track isn't neccessarily quicker the next day. In fact it would likely be slower. Because during qualifying, which immediately follows FP3, the track has had about 600 laps of rubber put down on it. In qualifying alone, the track has just had about 200 laps of fresh rubber put down on it and a high track temperature created due to track activity from 10-20 cars at once.

Red Bull did a single car test at Silverstone, no opportunity to build track temperature with a single car and maybe 80-90 laps of rubber down over an entire day, so not freshly put down like in Q.

Anyway, Red Bull knew all this and much more and made the calculation and got it right, Ricciardo was quicker.Vettel was barely quikcer than Webber at the end of 2013, its not that surprising.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:02 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
This was the initial article and then Horner said in numerous TV interviews afterwards that they knew Ricciardo was faster than Vettel from that test.

"The basic speed, Red Bull insist, is not in doubt. Horner mentioned to 5 live that one of the determining factors in Ricciardo's appointment was what he described as a "really impressive" test for the team at Silverstone in July.

He did not go into detail, but privately Red Bull insiders have. This writer has been briefed that in a car of comparative specification - same fuel load, tyres, etc - and in similar conditions (albeit on a different day), Ricciardo was 0.2 seconds faster than Vettel at that test."


Also, a track isn't neccessarily quicker the next day. In fact it would likely be slower. Because during qualifying, which immediately follows FP3, the track has had about 600 laps of rubber put down on it. In qualifying alone, the track has just had about 200 laps of fresh rubber put down on it and a high track temperature created due to track activity from 10-20 cars at once.

Red Bull did a single car test at Silverstone, no opportunity to build track temperature with a single car and maybe 80-90 laps of rubber down over an entire day, so not freshly put down like in Q.


Anyway, Red Bull knew all this and much more and made the calculation and got it right, Ricciardo was quicker.Vettel was barely quikcer than Webber at the end of 2013, its not that surprising.


Like I said no team principal in his right state of mind will say that hence the bolded part.

If I had realised this was your thought process wont have bothered at all, over a race weekend the track gets faster its common knowledge what more after a race.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:18 pm 
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I don't understand why some are thinking Vettel is having a poor run at the moment. If he is, then all of this hype about Leclerc should just stop. Vettel - the driver on a bad run, with some saying he is not even a top driver.... He has still overall looked quite a bit better than Leclerc. Mistakes that he has made have been much smaller. It has been close in several of the races, but at least half of them Vettel has still looked better and some miles better. Leclerc has only looked better twice.

So what is it that people are seeing in Leclerc? A year beating Ericsson? The Sauber was significantly better than the previous 2 years which I think made Leclerc in his first look way better than he was. Vettel got beaten by Kimi several times last year. Kimi looked a fair bit better in Australia but was unlucky. I haven't seen much that has impressed me about Leclerc yet. Kimi looked to be doing a very similar job this stage last year, without the clumsy errors. But also admittedly without the stand out performances. But the thing is. Vettel had weak races last year when Kimi would have or did beat him without bad luck. And people didn't seem to be suggesting Kimi was really good. But now, some people almost seem to be suggesting Vettel will retire soon when Leclerc just happens looks a bit better at a certain weekend. Overall, Vettel has been much better this season, and I think most of the time, that will remain. If Vettel is having what is considered to be a bad start this season, then Leclerc is terrible. I don't think either are true. Neither have been great but not poor either overall this year.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:55 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't understand why some are thinking Vettel is having a poor run at the moment. If he is, then all of this hype about Leclerc should just stop. Vettel - the driver on a bad run, with some saying he is not even a top driver.... He has still overall looked quite a bit better than Leclerc. Mistakes that he has made have been much smaller. It has been close in several of the races, but at least half of them Vettel has still looked better and some miles better. Leclerc has only looked better twice.

So what is it that people are seeing in Leclerc? A year beating Ericsson? The Sauber was significantly better than the previous 2 years which I think made Leclerc in his first look way better than he was. Vettel got beaten by Kimi several times last year. Kimi looked a fair bit better in Australia but was unlucky. I haven't seen much that has impressed me about Leclerc yet. Kimi looked to be doing a very similar job this stage last year, without the clumsy errors. But also admittedly without the stand out performances. But the thing is. Vettel had weak races last year when Kimi would have or did beat him without bad luck. And people didn't seem to be suggesting Kimi was really good. But now, some people almost seem to be suggesting Vettel will retire soon when Leclerc just happens looks a bit better at a certain weekend. Overall, Vettel has been much better this season, and I think most of the time, that will remain. If Vettel is having what is considered to be a bad start this season, then Leclerc is terrible. I don't think either are true. Neither have been great but not poor either overall this year.

I don't agree. To answer your main question; what people see in Leclerc is a higher ceiling than Vettel has. They see someone who, at his best, will be better than Vettel at his best. You are right to point out the inconsistency and mistakes that we've seen from Charles but you are totally wrong in your assessment that he has only looked better than Sebastian in 2 races. Let's take a closer look:

Australia-Vettel was quicker here in qualifying and in the race but Ferrari got things wrong with Sebastian's strategy and he was slow in the final stint (probably due to trying to make the tire last too long). None the less, Charles was in position to attack for position late in the race and was held back by the team.

Bahrain-Charles was faster in qualifying and MUCH faster in the race; overtaking Vettel on track. He was ultimately robbed of a win by reliability.

China-Charles was just a couple of hundredths slower in qualifying and then actually had position in the race but was ordered to move aside and let Vettel pass. Vettel was not able to gap Charles at all after being let through and the pit-stop phase allowed Verstappen to jump Charles as well. Ferrari then stranded Charles out on track during the second stint until he had lost a massive amount of time to the leaders. Basically, without the team orders there; Charles would have finished on the podium.

Baku-Charles was faster than Vettel here but this is where his own mistakes really started to come into play. The shunt in qualifying ruined his chances at a great result but, again, he was the quicker Ferrari driver.

Spain-This was a race where Ferrari actually had Seb move over for Charles and then flipped them back later on. This was a weekend where Vettel looked distinctly better than Charles both on Saturday and Sunday for the most part.

Monaco-Charles never really had a chance here. They absolutely messed up his qualifying session and qualifying is 80% of the battle in Monaco. I think it's fair to say that he was hot-headed and impatient and threw away any chance at some decent points on Sunday but the team let him down here again.

Canada-Charles really struggled in Q3 here and he had a poor qualifying lap. he also struggled to match the pace of Vettel in the first stint. That said, he was quicker than Seb on the hard tires but this weekend went to Vettel.

France-Charles was comprehensively superior to Vettel both on Saturday and Sunday.

Austria-Charles has been quicker all weekend so far. Okay, Vettel had the mechanical problem that took him out of Q3 but I see no reason to believe that he was going to out-qualify Charles here.

So it has been a back and forth battle but if you take out the team orders, the mechanical failures and the blunders from the pit wall, Charles is actually very close to Vettel in terms of the things that the drivers actually have control of. He also seems to be just rounding into form now. Don't forget that he's just 21 and in his second season in F1 (his first with Ferrari). Is it that crazy that it might take some time for him to bed in?

There's a lot of potential there and I'm surprised you don't see it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:01 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
This was the initial article and then Horner said in numerous TV interviews afterwards that they knew Ricciardo was faster than Vettel from that test.

"The basic speed, Red Bull insist, is not in doubt. Horner mentioned to 5 live that one of the determining factors in Ricciardo's appointment was what he described as a "really impressive" test for the team at Silverstone in July.

He did not go into detail, but privately Red Bull insiders have. This writer has been briefed that in a car of comparative specification - same fuel load, tyres, etc - and in similar conditions (albeit on a different day), Ricciardo was 0.2 seconds faster than Vettel at that test."


Also, a track isn't neccessarily quicker the next day. In fact it would likely be slower. Because during qualifying, which immediately follows FP3, the track has had about 600 laps of rubber put down on it. In qualifying alone, the track has just had about 200 laps of fresh rubber put down on it and a high track temperature created due to track activity from 10-20 cars at once.

Red Bull did a single car test at Silverstone, no opportunity to build track temperature with a single car and maybe 80-90 laps of rubber down over an entire day, so not freshly put down like in Q.


Anyway, Red Bull knew all this and much more and made the calculation and got it right, Ricciardo was quicker.Vettel was barely quikcer than Webber at the end of 2013, its not that surprising.


Like I said no team principal in his right state of mind will say that hence the bolded part.

If I had realised this was your thought process wont have bothered at all, over a race weekend the track gets faster its common knowledge what more after a race.


1 car on track vs 20 generating track temperature... what was the weather? What was the wind? What engine modes were used?

We don’t know so we can’t say anything can we? Red Bull knew though and they said Vettel was slower than Ricciardo in the 2013 car.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:13 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't understand why some are thinking Vettel is having a poor run at the moment. If he is, then all of this hype about Leclerc should just stop. Vettel - the driver on a bad run, with some saying he is not even a top driver.... He has still overall looked quite a bit better than Leclerc. Mistakes that he has made have been much smaller. It has been close in several of the races, but at least half of them Vettel has still looked better and some miles better. Leclerc has only looked better twice.

So what is it that people are seeing in Leclerc? A year beating Ericsson? The Sauber was significantly better than the previous 2 years which I think made Leclerc in his first look way better than he was. Vettel got beaten by Kimi several times last year. Kimi looked a fair bit better in Australia but was unlucky. I haven't seen much that has impressed me about Leclerc yet. Kimi looked to be doing a very similar job this stage last year, without the clumsy errors. But also admittedly without the stand out performances. But the thing is. Vettel had weak races last year when Kimi would have or did beat him without bad luck. And people didn't seem to be suggesting Kimi was really good. But now, some people almost seem to be suggesting Vettel will retire soon when Leclerc just happens looks a bit better at a certain weekend. Overall, Vettel has been much better this season, and I think most of the time, that will remain. If Vettel is having what is considered to be a bad start this season, then Leclerc is terrible. I don't think either are true. Neither have been great but not poor either overall this year.


Leclerc is 21, Vettel is 31. Leclerc hasn’t even done 30 races. In Vettels first 20 he had an accident in at least 7 of them.

All that matters when you’re very young is to be quick, the errors you can iron out later. Look at Verstappen now.

Leclerc is a huge upgrade on Raikkonen, in 2 races Leclerc did to Vettel what Kimi couldn’t do in 4 years... take a pole from him, overtake him and have a race pace 0.5 a lap quicker. Kimi didn’t manage any of those things, let alone all three in one race. Leclerc did it in his 2nd start.

Leclerc is only going to get better and Vettel isn’t improving, he is getting worse if anything. My gut feeling is that we are seeing the crossover point right now. Leclerc has already edged Vettel for speed in nearly half the weekends. I see that going up.

Then there is the small matter that Vettel earns $30m and Leclerc $5m...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:17 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't understand why some are thinking Vettel is having a poor run at the moment. If he is, then all of this hype about Leclerc should just stop. Vettel - the driver on a bad run, with some saying he is not even a top driver.... He has still overall looked quite a bit better than Leclerc. Mistakes that he has made have been much smaller. It has been close in several of the races, but at least half of them Vettel has still looked better and some miles better. Leclerc has only looked better twice.

So what is it that people are seeing in Leclerc? A year beating Ericsson? The Sauber was significantly better than the previous 2 years which I think made Leclerc in his first look way better than he was. Vettel got beaten by Kimi several times last year. Kimi looked a fair bit better in Australia but was unlucky. I haven't seen much that has impressed me about Leclerc yet. Kimi looked to be doing a very similar job this stage last year, without the clumsy errors. But also admittedly without the stand out performances. But the thing is. Vettel had weak races last year when Kimi would have or did beat him without bad luck. And people didn't seem to be suggesting Kimi was really good. But now, some people almost seem to be suggesting Vettel will retire soon when Leclerc just happens looks a bit better at a certain weekend. Overall, Vettel has been much better this season, and I think most of the time, that will remain. If Vettel is having what is considered to be a bad start this season, then Leclerc is terrible. I don't think either are true. Neither have been great but not poor either overall this year.


I don't think a guy in his 2nd season in the sport, 1st season in a top team is judged to the same standard as a 4xWDC. We don't expect as much from him this soon. All we know is he is closer to Vettel than Kimi which is very good for someone so early in their F1 career.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't understand why some are thinking Vettel is having a poor run at the moment. If he is, then all of this hype about Leclerc should just stop. Vettel - the driver on a bad run, with some saying he is not even a top driver.... He has still overall looked quite a bit better than Leclerc. Mistakes that he has made have been much smaller. It has been close in several of the races, but at least half of them Vettel has still looked better and some miles better. Leclerc has only looked better twice.

So what is it that people are seeing in Leclerc? A year beating Ericsson? The Sauber was significantly better than the previous 2 years which I think made Leclerc in his first look way better than he was. Vettel got beaten by Kimi several times last year. Kimi looked a fair bit better in Australia but was unlucky. I haven't seen much that has impressed me about Leclerc yet. Kimi looked to be doing a very similar job this stage last year, without the clumsy errors. But also admittedly without the stand out performances. But the thing is. Vettel had weak races last year when Kimi would have or did beat him without bad luck. And people didn't seem to be suggesting Kimi was really good. But now, some people almost seem to be suggesting Vettel will retire soon when Leclerc just happens looks a bit better at a certain weekend. Overall, Vettel has been much better this season, and I think most of the time, that will remain. If Vettel is having what is considered to be a bad start this season, then Leclerc is terrible. I don't think either are true. Neither have been great but not poor either overall this year.

I don't agree. To answer your main question; what people see in Leclerc is a higher ceiling than Vettel has. They see someone who, at his best, will be better than Vettel at his best. You are right to point out the inconsistency and mistakes that we've seen from Charles but you are totally wrong in your assessment that he has only looked better than Sebastian in 2 races. Let's take a closer look:

Australia-Vettel was quicker here in qualifying and in the race but Ferrari got things wrong with Sebastian's strategy and he was slow in the final stint (probably due to trying to make the tire last too long). None the less, Charles was in position to attack for position late in the race and was held back by the team.

Bahrain-Charles was faster in qualifying and MUCH faster in the race; overtaking Vettel on track. He was ultimately robbed of a win by reliability.

China-Charles was just a couple of hundredths slower in qualifying and then actually had position in the race but was ordered to move aside and let Vettel pass. Vettel was not able to gap Charles at all after being let through and the pit-stop phase allowed Verstappen to jump Charles as well. Ferrari then stranded Charles out on track during the second stint until he had lost a massive amount of time to the leaders. Basically, without the team orders there; Charles would have finished on the podium.

Baku-Charles was faster than Vettel here but this is where his own mistakes really started to come into play. The shunt in qualifying ruined his chances at a great result but, again, he was the quicker Ferrari driver.

Spain-This was a race where Ferrari actually had Seb move over for Charles and then flipped them back later on. This was a weekend where Vettel looked distinctly better than Charles both on Saturday and Sunday for the most part.

Monaco-Charles never really had a chance here. They absolutely messed up his qualifying session and qualifying is 80% of the battle in Monaco. I think it's fair to say that he was hot-headed and impatient and threw away any chance at some decent points on Sunday but the team let him down here again.

Canada-Charles really struggled in Q3 here and he had a poor qualifying lap. he also struggled to match the pace of Vettel in the first stint. That said, he was quicker than Seb on the hard tires but this weekend went to Vettel.

France-Charles was comprehensively superior to Vettel both on Saturday and Sunday.

Austria-Charles has been quicker all weekend so far. Okay, Vettel had the mechanical problem that took him out of Q3 but I see no reason to believe that he was going to out-qualify Charles here.

So it has been a back and forth battle but if you take out the team orders, the mechanical failures and the blunders from the pit wall, Charles is actually very close to Vettel in terms of the things that the drivers actually have control of. He also seems to be just rounding into form now. Don't forget that he's just 21 and in his second season in F1 (his first with Ferrari). Is it that crazy that it might take some time for him to bed in?

There's a lot of potential there and I'm surprised you don't see it.

I still think there have only been 2 races where it was very clear Leclerc was better. Baku is totally out of it. If his pace was better, and he didn't crash, he would have had that weekend. But he messed it up himself. In Monaco, he sort of messed it up himself in qualifying a bit too by missing the weigh bridge which cost him quite some time. But Leclerc could have done what Verstappen did last year and what Bottas did last year in the first race. It is really hard to overtake. Don't be overly desperate to get past. You have a much quicker car. You should use your speed and strategy advantage at the right time. Leclerc just ruined his race in about the most clumsy way i can remember a driver doing so in quite some time. What makes it worse is that he had time to judge what he was doing. it wasn't like a fast incident that is all over too soon. He just ignored the fact that going fast would wreck his car.

China I could say it was equal and yes, leclerc likely could have beaten Vettel on merit this time, so I should have said 3 really. But still, I am aware Leclerc is a rookie, but given how impressed people say they have been and the level of praise he has been given, I think he should be better than he is despite being a rather new driver. I wouldn't be as harsh against him if he wasn't rather over rated, which I think is is at the moment. He is extremely good - for his level of experience. But he isn't consistent and has made big mistakes which to me is not as impressive as I thought he would be based on reading peoples expectations.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes Buttons 2009 second half is a good called. Actually one of the very worst because he was in the thick of a title fight and had just had the best first 7 races in F1 history, 6 wins, one 3rd.

He also had an even worse spell for about 5-6 races during 2012.

And an even worse spell again in 2001. In fact with such patchy form over the course of his career, maybe Button just wasn't that great?


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