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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Hoping Leclerc gets his 1st win tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Interested to see whether Ferrari opting to start on the softs will turn out to be a good idea or not. It could decide the race.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:33 pm 
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The starting grid:

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Source - www.imgur.com

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:01 pm 
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I get rules are rules.
But it bemuses me Hamilton got a 3 place grid drop for impeeding Kimi in q1. With no lasting consequences as both made it through to not only q2. But q3.
Unless I've missed the other announcement. What about Russell on kvyat in the same session. Surely kvyat was on course too better his lap time.and potentially make it into q2.
Surely. If there is no lasting consequence. I dont believe Kimi went out and destroyed a extra set of tyres. So surely the penalty is meaningless in the sense that there was no lasting disadvantage for kimi.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:07 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
I get rules are rules.
But it bemuses me Hamilton got a 3 place grid drop for impeeding Kimi in q1. With no lasting consequences as both made it through to not only q2. But q3.
Unless I've missed the other announcement. What about Russell on kvyat in the same session. Surely kvyat was on course too better his lap time.and potentially make it into q2.
Surely. If there is no lasting consequence. I dont believe Kimi went out and destroyed a extra set of tyres. So surely the penalty is meaningless in the sense that there was no lasting disadvantage for kimi.


He got same even before Hamilton!

Just look at the post above yours thats why he has an asterisk beside his name.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:13 pm 
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wire2004 wrote:
I get rules are rules.
But it bemuses me Hamilton got a 3 place grid drop for impeeding Kimi in q1. With no lasting consequences as both made it through to not only q2. But q3.
Unless I've missed the other announcement. What about Russell on kvyat in the same session. Surely kvyat was on course too better his lap time.and potentially make it into q2.
Surely. If there is no lasting consequence. I dont believe Kimi went out and destroyed a extra set of tyres. So surely the penalty is meaningless in the sense that there was no lasting disadvantage for kimi.


If, during a race you continue to cut a corner or run wide, they give you a penalty. This is not dependant of whether you made up enough time doing this to gain a place at some point during the race. You get the penalty if they believe you broke a rule.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:49 pm 
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Hamilton starting 5th is not the disaster for him that it might have been. His main championship rival starts in third and his next nearest competitior starts in 9th. You'd fancy him to finish at worst 4th barring calamity or car failure.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:29 pm 
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70 second lap... with natural field spread, the Williams car should be 30 seconds off the lead after 2 laps. What lap will the first Williams be lapped on?

I am going to guess 18


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:55 pm 
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BTW, it's been mainly reported that L.Hamilton will start P5. He'll actually start P4, ahead of Norris. Mag finished 5th but is also taking a penalty so Hamilton takes the spot.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:22 pm 
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Invade wrote:
BTW, it's been mainly reported that L.Hamilton will start P5. He'll actually start P4, ahead of Norris. Mag finished 5th but is also taking a penalty so Hamilton takes the spot.

No, he ought to start P5. Penalties are applied in the order they're received, so:

1) Magnussen takes his penalty, moving Norris into P5
2) Hamilton takes his penalty, moving Norris into P4 and slotting Hamilton in behind him

EDIT: Okay, I can see that the FIA has released a statement saying that Hamilton will start P4. But why? That goes against the normal procedure as I understood it.

Further edit: Okay, I actually have a copy of the FIA sporting regulations (circa 2016) on my computer, and according to them I'm right. Did they change the rules since then?

35.2 (page 27/56)
c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with a) and b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question in the order the offences were committed. If, following qualifying, more than one driver incurs a penalty under Article 23.4(f) or Article 23.6(a) preference will be given to the driver whose team first informed the technical delegate that a power unit or gearbox change will be carried out.


That sounds clear cut to me. Magnussen incurred his penalty well before Hamilton, so it should be applied first. By the time Hamilton's penalty is applied, Norris should already be in fifth, and move up correspondingly to fourth.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:50 pm 
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As far as I can tell the key is that they apply all the penalties in order while leaving gaps in the grid, then close up the grid.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:07 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
BTW, it's been mainly reported that L.Hamilton will start P5. He'll actually start P4, ahead of Norris. Mag finished 5th but is also taking a penalty so Hamilton takes the spot.

No, he ought to start P5. Penalties are applied in the order they're received, so:

1) Magnussen takes his penalty, moving Norris into P5
2) Hamilton takes his penalty, moving Norris into P4 and slotting Hamilton in behind him

EDIT: Okay, I can see that the FIA has released a statement saying that Hamilton will start P4. But why? That goes against the normal procedure as I understood it.

Further edit: Okay, I actually have a copy of the FIA sporting regulations (circa 2016) on my computer, and according to them I'm right. Did they change the rules since then?

35.2 (page 27/56)
c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with a) and b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question in the order the offences were committed. If, following qualifying, more than one driver incurs a penalty under Article 23.4(f) or Article 23.6(a) preference will be given to the driver whose team first informed the technical delegate that a power unit or gearbox change will be carried out.


That sounds clear cut to me. Magnussen incurred his penalty well before Hamilton, so it should be applied first. By the time Hamilton's penalty is applied, Norris should already be in fifth, and move up correspondingly to fourth.
This is how it reads in 2019:"Once the grid has been established in accordance with a) and b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question in the order the offences were committed. If, following qualifying, more than one driver incurs a penalty under Article 23.3(e) or Article 23.5(a) preference will be given to the driver whose team first informed the technical delegate that a power unit or gearbox change will be carried out." :)

I think you'll find this interesting: "News of Hamilton’s penalty will be particularly welcome for his former team McLaren, meanwhile, with Lando Norris now promoted to fourth on the grid – his highest ever starting position in F1 – thanks to both the penalty for Hamilton and a five-place grid drop for Haas’ Kevin Magnussen for a change of gearbox." ( Source: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-handed-3-place-grid-drop-for-impeding-raikkonen-in-austria.4jatTCaO1TrlV19mYNKWWi.html)

Edit: And now I find on Autosport that it's fourth position. :lol:

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Last edited by Fiki on Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:12 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
As far as I can tell the key is that they apply all the penalties in order while leaving gaps in the grid, then close up the grid.


This is what i've been led to believe too..... no one 'moves up' until all penalties have spun out, and then the grid is closed up to form the final order.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
As far as I can tell the key is that they apply all the penalties in order while leaving gaps in the grid, then close up the grid.

This is what i've been led to believe too..... no one 'moves up' until all penalties have spun out, and then the grid is closed up to form the final order.

Hmm. It doesn't say that anywhere I can find in the rules, and it seems like it has the effect of mitigating the later penalty. Hamilton is only actually receiving a 2-place penalty, instead of the 3 he was given. That doesn't strike me as a correct interpretation of the code as written, even if it is the one the race stewards are going with.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:22 pm 
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https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... -penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:37 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11749940/austrian-gp-grid-lewis-hamilton-fourth-not-fifth-amid-mass-penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

And thus, even having received a penalty, if Lewis wins tomorrow we will here the idiots talking about favoritism...


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:56 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:56 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11749940/austrian-gp-grid-lewis-hamilton-fourth-not-fifth-amid-mass-penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

And thus, even having received a penalty, if Lewis wins tomorrow we will here the idiots talking about favoritism...

Only the idiots. I don't think it's favoritism, but I do think it's a silly interpretation of the rules. A driver shouldn't get off light for their own penalty just because a different driver also got one. They should both suffer.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:29 pm 
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Hamilton only receiving a 2 place penalty is similar to what happened at the Japanese GP 2009. From what I remember 5 drivers were given penalties due to setting their fastest laps under a yellow flag. As they were given penalties in order of infraction time; Barrichello was only really demoted 2 places.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:35 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11749940/austrian-gp-grid-lewis-hamilton-fourth-not-fifth-amid-mass-penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

And thus, even having received a penalty, if Lewis wins tomorrow we will here the idiots talking about favoritism...

Only the idiots. I don't think it's favoritism, but I do think it's a silly interpretation of the rules. A driver shouldn't get off light for their own penalty just because a different driver also got one. They should both suffer.

To be honest, I don't understand it either. To my thinking, it makes sense that Norris would start from P4 but that's F1 for you. Unlike other sports you can never actually reach a state of completely understanding the rules. Not that it makes much of a difference. There's no way Lando could keep Hamilton behind him. Honestly Lando is better off not having to deal with Hamilton coming through early in the race and being able to just focus on his own race (he has the de facto pole position for the best of the rest battle).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11749940/austrian-gp-grid-lewis-hamilton-fourth-not-fifth-amid-mass-penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

And thus, even having received a penalty, if Lewis wins tomorrow we will here the idiots talking about favoritism...

Only the idiots. I don't think it's favoritism, but I do think it's a silly interpretation of the rules. A driver shouldn't get off light for their own penalty just because a different driver also got one. They should both suffer.

To be honest, I don't understand it either. To my thinking, it makes sense that Norris would start from P4 but that's F1 for you. Unlike other sports you can never actually reach a state of completely understanding the rules. Not that it makes much of a difference. There's no way Lando could keep Hamilton behind him. Honestly Lando is better off not having to deal with Hamilton coming through early in the race and being able to just focus on his own race (he has the de facto pole position for the best of the rest battle).


If only Hamilton had a penalty, he would start ahead of Norris. 2 +3= 5. Norris qualified 6th.
Makes sense to me he starts ahead of him.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11749940/austrian-gp-grid-lewis-hamilton-fourth-not-fifth-amid-mass-penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

And thus, even having received a penalty, if Lewis wins tomorrow we will here the idiots talking about favoritism...

Only the idiots. I don't think it's favoritism, but I do think it's a silly interpretation of the rules. A driver shouldn't get off light for their own penalty just because a different driver also got one. They should both suffer.

These types of grid penalties are not open for interpretation. They are very strictly defined in the rules with no opening for subjective reasoning. They get applied in a very particular order, the stewards do not decide. Hamilton had his penalty applied before Magnusen's because that's the order the rules say they should be applied. EDIT: The grid positions only get shuffled forwards after all penalties are applied, so Magnussen's was actually applied first, because it took effect the moment he let the pits with his new gearbox fitted - however after Magnussen gets pushed back, Lando doesn't get shuffled forwards. The shuffling forwards only occurs once all penalties are applied.

It is the people suggesting that Hamilton should start 5th no matter what who are having the 'silly' subjective interpretation.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:39 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
These types of grid penalties are not open for interpretation. They are very strictly defined in the rules with no opening for subjective reasoning. They get applied in a very particular order, the stewards do not decide. Hamilton had his penalty applied before Magnusen's because that's the order the rules say they should be applied. EDIT: The grid positions only get shuffled forwards after all penalties are applied, so Magnussen's was actually applied first, because it took effect the moment he let the pits with his new gearbox fitted - however after Magnussen gets pushed back, Lando doesn't get shuffled forwards. The shuffling forwards only occurs once all penalties are applied.

It is the people suggesting that Hamilton should start 5th no matter what who are having the 'silly' subjective interpretation.

Find me where it says that in the rules? Because I've read them, and I can't find it. If--as you say--it's very strictly defined, somewhere in the FIA sporting code there will be a line that actually says that's how it works. As far as I can tell, however, there is no such line.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:11 am 
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Does anyone know who is the steward from the Drivers Association this weekend?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:24 am 
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So Hamilton does start in P4 because of Magnussen's penalty.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:26 am 
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This is the Provisional grid:

1. Charles Leclerc Ferrari 1:03.003
2. Max Verstappen Red Bull Racing
3. Valtteri Bottas Mercedes
4. Lewis Hamilton Mercedes (three place grid penalty for blocking in qualifying)
5. Lando Norris McLaren
6. Kimi Raikkonen Alfa Romeo
7. Antonio Giovinazzi Alfa Romeo
8. Pierre Gasly Red Bull Racing
9. Sebastian Vettel Ferrari
10. Kevin Magnussen Haas (five place grid penalty for gearbox change)
11. Romain Grosjean Haas
12. Daniel Ricciardo Renault
13. Sergio Perez Racing Point
14. Lance Stroll Racing Point
15. Nico Hulkenberg Renault (five place grid penalty for change of ICE)
16. Daniil Kvyat Toro Rosso
17. Robert Kubica Williams
18. George Russell Williams (three place grid penalty for blocking in qualifying)
19. Alexander Albon Toro Rosso (Required to start from the back of the grid due to engine changes)
20. Carlos Sainz McLaren (Required to start from the back of the grid due to engine changes).

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:31 am 
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Pitstop strategy as per Pirelli:

Optimal strategy is a one-stopper:
Start on the medium for 14 to 20 laps and then take the hard to the finish.

Second fastest strategy(very close on pace):
Start on soft for 12 to 16 laps before switching to hard.

A two-stopper is definitely slower, but several permutations are possible using all the compounds, with a similar combined race time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:37 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
So Hamilton does start in P4 because of Magnussen's penalty.
(tweet)

That makes sense now. Thanks for that.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:09 am 
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Let's hope it's even half as entertaining as the F3 race that's just coming to an end.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:13 am 
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How bad is the state of F1 when the main talk for several races are the legal matters, not racing, engines, track, drivers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:17 am 
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Well, the stewards were able to give a penalty for a final lap incident on the slowing down lap. That's the kind of quick thinking we need. Are the the same as those who decide on F1?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:53 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Pitstop strategy as per Pirelli:

Optimal strategy is a one-stopper:
Start on the medium for 14 to 20 laps and then take the hard to the finish.

Second fastest strategy(very close on pace):
Start on soft for 12 to 16 laps before switching to hard.

A two-stopper is definitely slower, but several permutations are possible using all the compounds, with a similar combined race time.


So no difference in strategy between Leclerc and the Mercedes cars...

I can't see the leaders pitting that early, I don't think they will have a gap to the midfield in so few laps and clean air to come out into. Unless Leclerc has a great pace on the soft.

If all the stops are done by lap 20 of a 70 lap race... 50 laps watching them cruise home unable to overtake? I hope not.

A high chance of a SC as well I think here. So that could spice things up.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:04 am 
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This is easily the most excited I've been for a race this year. Helps that neither Merc is on the front row and that Vettel starts back in P9. I'm expecting drama.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:25 am 
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A video from Chain Bear re the penalty & grid position

https://youtu.be/3Cj6WJBD_GE


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:40 am 
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Invade wrote:
This is easily the most excited I've been for a race this year. Helps that neither Merc is on the front row and that Vettel starts back in P9. I'm expecting drama.


Leclerc & Verstappen on front row is a sight for sore eyes!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:42 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/11749940/austrian-gp-grid-lewis-hamilton-fourth-not-fifth-amid-mass-penalties

Article on Sky on how they understand it too. I've not really delved into the black and white of the rules but there was a bit of chat on the Autosport forums too about the penalty only putting Lewis in 4th place.

And thus, even having received a penalty, if Lewis wins tomorrow we will here the idiots talking about favoritism...

Only the idiots. I don't think it's favoritism, but I do think it's a silly interpretation of the rules. A driver shouldn't get off light for their own penalty just because a different driver also got one. They should both suffer.

These types of grid penalties are not open for interpretation. They are very strictly defined in the rules with no opening for subjective reasoning. They get applied in a very particular order, the stewards do not decide. Hamilton had his penalty applied before Magnusen's because that's the order the rules say they should be applied. EDIT: The grid positions only get shuffled forwards after all penalties are applied, so Magnussen's was actually applied first, because it took effect the moment he let the pits with his new gearbox fitted - however after Magnussen gets pushed back, Lando doesn't get shuffled forwards. The shuffling forwards only occurs once all penalties are applied.

It is the people suggesting that Hamilton should start 5th no matter what who are having the 'silly' subjective interpretation.


Thank you for writing this, pretty sad that you've had to put the effort into this though. People getting upset about rules being applied objectively is the epitome of childish.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:43 am 
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What's the odds on Ferrari throwing the race win away today due to some nonsensical strategy


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:54 am 
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Truly a great moment of the 2019 season:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:28 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Invade wrote:
This is easily the most excited I've been for a race this year. Helps that neither Merc is on the front row and that Vettel starts back in P9. I'm expecting drama.


Leclerc & Verstappen on front row is a sight for sore eyes!


Take each other out at turn 1. Mercedes waltz away to another 1-2. x(

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 3713
wire2004 wrote:
I get rules are rules.
But it bemuses me Hamilton got a 3 place grid drop for impeeding Kimi in q1. With no lasting consequences as both made it through to not only q2. But q3.
Unless I've missed the other announcement. What about Russell on kvyat in the same session. Surely kvyat was on course too better his lap time.and potentially make it into q2.
Surely. If there is no lasting consequence. I dont believe Kimi went out and destroyed a extra set of tyres. So surely the penalty is meaningless in the sense that there was no lasting disadvantage for kimi.

Russell was demoted too, but all that did was push him from 17th to 18th.

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