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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Is passing a lost art in F1? Is it so rare that drivers can't even remember what constitutes as fair move when the time comes?

It's almost like being a fighter pilot having to eject, you'd probably only ever do it once in your career but would you be brave enough, strong enough and remember enough when you actually need to do it, rather than trying to keep the plane in the sky?

Do the drivers actually have the same opinions on what is fair and what is unfair? Couldn't we have the FIA have them all complete a test series of example passes and see their opinions on what is a fair or unfair move?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:37 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Is passing a lost art in F1? Is it so rare that drivers can't even remember what constitutes as fair move when the time comes?

It's almost like being a fighter pilot having to eject, you'd probably only ever do it once in your career but would you be brave enough, strong enough and remember enough when you actually need to do it, rather than trying to keep the plane in the sky?

Do the drivers actually have the same opinions on what is fair and what is unfair? Couldn't we have the FIA have them all complete a test series of example passes and see their opinions on what is a fair or unfair move?


Passing is more frequent in F1 now than through most of it's history.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:40 pm 
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If you look at statistics there has never been masses of passing in F1. Since DRS there has been more than ever (since reasonably reliable recording began), and even attempting to approximately account for and factor out the difference DRS made it seems at very least fairly typical and probably higher than a lot of the 20 years prior.

People have a tendency see F1's history through rather thick rose tinted glasses.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:59 pm 
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There's a difference between actual passing, and cars running closely enough together that one is really pressuring the other and can seize on any slight error. That's what's missing now. It's hard to force a mistake if you're as far back as the cars are now.

In general I think the drivers all agree on what's fair, it's the stewards who seem terrified of letting them get away with anything slightly forceful nowadays. Of course the driver who's passed will always say it was an unfair move (as Leclerc did in Austria), but I think few others agreed..


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:46 am 
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tim3003 wrote:
There's a difference between actual passing, and cars running closely enough together that one is really pressuring the other and can seize on any slight error. That's what's missing now. It's hard to force a mistake if you're as far back as the cars are now.

In general I think the drivers all agree on what's fair, it's the stewards who seem terrified of letting them get away with anything slightly forceful nowadays. Of course the driver who's passed will always say it was an unfair move (as Leclerc did in Austria), but I think few others agreed..


I think that is a big part of the problem. Unless there is a big performance differential to the car in front, then it seems very hard to make a clean overtake, or even pressure the lead driver into an error - especially once the lead car has sussed where it needs to deploy battery power to defend. Cars performing within pace of < 1.5 secs (per lap), struggle to follow much beyond 0.8s of each other (and even then... only for a short burst before needing to drop back another 0.5s or so to cool down/maintain tyres) , thus without a mistake or tyres dropping off any overtake between lead cars inevitably comes from deep.

Another part is decisions made in the blink of an get analysed to death with 100 camera angles.

Another part is with the asphalt run off around the track, drivers have a get out and will keep a foot in to the last second, and not yield like they would with gravel/grass giving a natural penalty.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:27 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Is passing a lost art in F1? Is it so rare that drivers can't even remember what constitutes as fair move when the time comes?
They should know, since they are supposed to know the rules which govern racing across different classes.

pendulumeffect wrote:
It's almost like being a fighter pilot having to eject, you'd probably only ever do it once in your career but would you be brave enough, strong enough and remember enough when you actually need to do it, rather than trying to keep the plane in the sky?
Knowing a little bit about fighter pilots, I fail to see how a pilot might forget the simplest thing there is about flying modern fighters. It might be hard to reach the decision to eject rather than stay with the aircraft, but the action of ejecting is hardly something that requires much thought, especially these days.

pendulumeffect wrote:
Do the drivers actually have the same opinions on what is fair and what is unfair? Couldn't we have the FIA have them all complete a test series of example passes and see their opinions on what is a fair or unfair move?
Rest assured, the drivers know. Not all will respect the rules though, since they aren't always enforced.
The main distinction to make is, I believe, that between an honest mistake by a driver, and a deliberate breach of the rules. Even an honest mistake by a driver can seriously disadvantage his competitor, and should therefore be penalized. Sometimes a little mistake doesn't carry any serious consequences, in which case it may be considered a racing incident. While in that particular moment it may appear not trivial to one of the drivers, upon reviewing it they should both come to the same conclusion. Which is precisely why I believe it is important for the stewards to speak to drivers involved in unclear or controversial incidents.

But when a driver makes an unfair move, he knows. When Max Verstappen overtook beyond the kerbstones in Austin a few years ago, he knew there was no way in which that "pass" could be allowed to stand.

tim3003 wrote:
There's a difference between actual passing, and cars running closely enough together that one is really pressuring the other and can seize on any slight error. That's what's missing now. It's hard to force a mistake if you're as far back as the cars are now.

In general I think the drivers all agree on what's fair, it's the stewards who seem terrified of letting them get away with anything slightly forceful nowadays. Of course the driver who's passed will always say it was an unfair move (as Leclerc did in Austria), but I think few others agreed..
No Tim, I can't agree with the underlined part. The reason Leclerc felt the move was unfair was because Verstappen pushed him off the track. That is not allowed and should have carried a penalty. The reason given by the stewards in their report is not backed by the rules as published. That verdict should have been challenged, and Leclerc's recent statement means a blow for fair play. I hope he never becomes as cynical a driver as some we have seen over the past decades, when drivers turned to asking for "clarification" of the rules rather than racing fairly.

I agree with pendulumeffect that the FIA needs to take action, and it shouldn't bow down to "letting them race" simply because "spectacle" means bums on seats. That is not what sport should be about.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:44 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
If you look at statistics there has never been masses of passing in F1. Since DRS there has been more than ever (since reasonably reliable recording began), and even attempting to approximately account for and factor out the difference DRS made it seems at very least fairly typical and probably higher than a lot of the 20 years prior.

People have a tendency see F1's history through rather thick rose tinted glasses.


:thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Edit:
post removed - incorrect thread.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:17 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
I agree with pendulumeffect that the FIA needs to take action, and it shouldn't bow down to "letting them race" simply because "spectacle" means bums on seats. That is not what sport should be about.


I agree, not commenting on the MV/CL incident specifically but if the stewards implemented these rules to nullify Schumacher's tactics its a retrograde step to 'open the door' again.

I sort of think that the 3 hour decision was a bit of....well OK this time but don't make a habit of it Max!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
If you look at statistics there has never been masses of passing in F1. Since DRS there has been more than ever (since reasonably reliable recording began), and even attempting to approximately account for and factor out the difference DRS made it seems at very least fairly typical and probably higher than a lot of the 20 years prior.

People have a tendency see F1's history through rather thick rose tinted glasses.


:thumbup: :nod:


Yeah i'm baffled where people get this impression that F1 was once an overtaking fest. It's never, ever, ever been that type of racing, I repeat. NEVER.

Proof? To re-enforce Wolfticket's comments, Check out this.

http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

It looks like it only goes up to 2016 but it'll show you that if you think overtaking's gone these days then you really would've struggled 10-20 yrs ago.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
If you look at statistics there has never been masses of passing in F1. Since DRS there has been more than ever (since reasonably reliable recording began), and even attempting to approximately account for and factor out the difference DRS made it seems at very least fairly typical and probably higher than a lot of the 20 years prior.

People have a tendency see F1's history through rather thick rose tinted glasses.


:thumbup: :nod:


Yeah i'm baffled where people get this impression that F1 was once an overtaking fest. It's never, ever, ever been that type of racing, I repeat. NEVER.

Proof? To re-enforce Wolfticket's comments, Check out this.

http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

It looks like it only goes up to 2016 but it'll show you that if you think overtaking's gone these days then you really would've struggled 10-20 yrs ago.
And if Jean Todt gets his way, re-fuelling will be back. Which means overtaking by making pitstops. Now that's what we want to see, don't we? "Oui monsieur FIA, by all means let us shoot ourselves in ze ozzer foot too!"

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Whilst I agree that the sport has never been a passing fest, I do remember when aero was far less important and drivers could at least follow fairly closely through the corners and have a bit of a look at the end of straights. For too many years, this has simply not been the case unless the following car has significant more pace, normally due to nothing but tyres.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Every driver in Formula One has many years of experience in passing, from their days in lower formula. So they have the experience. But now they are in a weird car with little visibility, specific behaviors, and up against all quality drivers.

IMO the biggest difference is they have grown rusty. If you play darts of snooker, you understand how rusty you get if you have not played for a few years. If you play three or four matches every day, you are as sharp as a tack and you are at the top of your game. In such disciplines as multi-class LeMans, all drivers must be very proficient in passing and watching for traffic. They could easily be involved in a passing scenario four, five, six times a lap. In Formula One it could be once every four or five laps. And discounting blue flags, no passing scenarios at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:48 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
In general I think the drivers all agree on what's fair, it's the stewards who seem terrified of letting them get away with anything slightly forceful nowadays. Of course the driver who's passed will always say it was an unfair move (as Leclerc did in Austria), but I think few others agreed..


No Tim, I can't agree with the underlined part. The reason Leclerc felt the move was unfair was because Verstappen pushed him off the track. That is not allowed and should have carried a penalty. The reason given by the stewards in their report is not backed by the rules as published. That verdict should have been challenged, and Leclerc's recent statement means a blow for fair play. I hope he never becomes as cynical a driver as some we have seen over the past decades, when drivers turned to asking for "clarification" of the rules rather than racing fairly.


Verstappen's pushing Leclerc off the track was surely no more than what Hamilton has done several times - if at higher speed so it looks less clumsy, and he never gets punished. Perhaps there needs to be a rule clarification for when the overtaking car gets inside and alongside the leading one, and they round a corner side-by-side. Does the inside car - the overtaking one, have to leave a car's width for the other on the track, or can he follow the racing line out to the kerb and force the other to go wide or drop behind? If one car is infront as they round the apex you can say he has priority and can choose his line, but what when they are side-by-side?


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