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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:19 pm 
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I'm quite a fan of Ocon, but this year Bottas has delivered the goods to put Hamilton under threat. Though Hamilton is comfortably in the lead and looks like extended that lead, should Bottas contract be renewed or Ocon given that seat?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:24 pm 
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I would rather see Ocon given the seat. It would be more interesting. We already know how good Bottas is.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:57 pm 
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I'd prefer Ocon too. Since he has been a part of the Mercedes driver program, it's time Wolff justifies his faith in Ocon & hands Ocon the seat which was in a way his. Bottas has been real fortunate to get the seat in 2017 due to Rosberg's sudden retirement.

I don't think on merit he was good enough to be handed a Mercedes seat (as of 2016). Mercedes had no other option so they handed Bottas the seat. It's not like he's in the same tier of Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, Raikkonen & Ricciardo even. I believe he was lucky again to be driving this year as Mercedes couldn't possibly foresee Renault giving Ricciardo preference over Ocon & Force India going into administration & Lawrence appoints Lance to replace Ocon, even though Ocon performed well in 2018.

Because Bottas signed the new contract before all these factors came in, he can consider himself fortunate. Had the 2 situations occured before Bottas signing, Mercedes would've surely signed Ocon.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:44 pm 
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I personally don't think that Ocon is all that. I think he would be more easily contained than Bottas has been. However, Bottas is never going to beat Hamilton, he's not on Rosberg's level and was disavantaged by being the person entering Hamilton's team, whereas Hamilton entered Rosberg's team. He's not the future for Mercedes, although if we were to replace Hamilton with a driver that was 1 second slower than Bottas over a race distance in all the races Hamilton beat him (and equalled Hamilton in all the others), then Mercedes would only be 17 points lower in the championship and Bottas would have two points more than Hamilton has at the moment.

Bottas would have also won 7 races (Vettel would have won 2) - although this is a quick and dirty calculation, so stuff like Monaco would have unfolded differently as well - but the point isn't to accurately present the alternative, just demonstrate Bottas would have been able to dominate a championship if Hamilton had retired at the end of 2018.

But the truth is, that any competent multiple race winner would win a championship with the current Mercedes if they are the fastest driver in the team. The fact is this is probably going to be Hamilton's easiest championship to date, but the car is not as all conquering as the 2014-2016 Mercedes. And that's because of Bottas. I hate to say it because I like him, I rate him, and I respect him, and I do think he is developing the self belief and killer instinct, but it's coming a little too late. Mercedes know that at the end of 2020 there is a chance Hamilton could be heading to Maranello, and they need to fill the void. Bottas, doesn't have the same X-factor.

Does Ocon - I don't think so either, and that's the problem. Leclerc and Verstappen are the next breed of X-factor with their wheel to wheel battles for the lead. Ocon's wheel to wheel battles with Verstappen was taking him out as a backmarker, all in a season he could at best describe as 'equalling' Perez.

If Mercedes are confident they can retain Hamilton until the end of 2022, then keeping Bottas for one more year is the smart money while they continue to develop George Russel. He's the GP2 champion of last year, he's more marketable than Ocon due to being British (especially with a Hamilton shaped void likely to open up in the next 5 years, which they aren't going to want McLaren to monopolise with Norris) and he's been putting in a good show with a crap car. Keeping Bottas would also maintain stability, and it is the stability that has allowed Mercedes to dominate Formula 1 for so long.

However, if they think Hamilton will move on after 2020 - then they need to replace Bottas. For one thing, keeping Bottas will strengthen Hamilton's hand at negotiations if he is thinking of moving. He needs to know the team is bigger than him if he isn't showing signs of complete loyalty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Bottom line is take Hamilton out and Vettel, the one who is currently getting crucified here to no end, is likely a 6 time world champion. Bottas lost to him in 2017 and 2018. He’s just not top tier. He has had his shot at the championship, but has not come close in any year. Now he can still technically get it done this year but how many people really believe that? I think knowing how Merc operates they will want to put somebody else in the car. They want to push Lewis, they want to keep pushing everything. That is why they are where they are. At this point I would be more surprised if Bottas gets another contract than if he is let go. So yeah... bottas out for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:27 pm 
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No. He has the pace to beat Hamilton on occasion but is just not quick enough over the season as a whole. He's getting away with it this year as the Mercedes is clearly the superior car on the majority of circuits, but if you look at the past two seasons there are far too many 4th and 5th places in races that Hamilton won. It's the sort of form that costs a team the constructors' championship in years where the top two or three teams are closely matched.

I don't get the Ocon hype, I'd give Russell a go instead. He's barely put a foot wrong this season, his attitude and approach belies his years, he's giving Kubica an almighty hammering and his F2 form suggests to me that he can be as good as Leclerc. It's a gamble, but it's less of a gamble when you have Hamilton in the other seat. At best they end up with a long term replacement for Hamilton, at worst he's as good as Bottas is.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Clearly Valtteri is not and never will be the equal of Lewis in his current form. I don't think Esteban Ocon or Charles Russell will be the equal of the current Lewis Hamilton but they might be closer than Valtteri is. I think Merc will be missing out if they don't get a fresh young talent in the 2nd Merc for the future. The only other viable strategy for 2nd Merc seat would be to wait till Max Verstappen becomes available. Of course having Lewis and Max on a team could easily be a replay of Fernando and Lewis on a team years ago. I don't think Lewis would pull the same "seniority" strategy that Fernando tried to use but there would be fireworks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:53 pm 
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Even though it is clear Bottas can't match Hamilton for a season, I don't see why they would change the line up. I see Bottas more likely remaining with this team than at this stage last year if I'm honest. Despite people telling me things have changed now, i still think this "option to extend" with his contract means something. I think it is more likely that he will than not. And out of all the drivers on the grid so far this year, Even though Hamilton and Verstappen have been clearly better, it is hard to say any others have done better really. or at least not by much at all. For some people, it seems like they expect Bottas to be a match for Hamilton or he's no good and Mercedes need somebody new. These 2 drivers are very good team mates. I honestly think Hamilton being more relaxed with Bottas being there allows him to perform even better. And Bottas has not been at all bad in the first half of any season at Mercedes. And I myself and see most others say that Hamilton just looks incredibly good from mid season onwards. I'm not sure if this was the same with Rosberg there. I think this team has a driver line up that is just as strong (or better) as Rosberg and Hamilton. They don't have stupid clashes which resulted in a double DNF once. Even though Mercedes are certainly overall the strongest. This line up is just working nicely. I see no point in changing it and I very much doubt it will for next year either.

As Bottas is now pretty experienced here and instantly seems to perform well each season, I don't see the point of kicking him out and risking an unknown performance with another driver. Brining in a new driver is a far bigger risk. Hamilton and Bottas show a lot of respect for each other. The very few times we see them up close, they keep it clean which Rosberg with Hamilton most certainly didn't.

If not for what verstappen did in Monaco on Bottas, Mercedes will have had 6 of the best finishing results possible for the team. Even though Bottas did underperform in Canada, 4th was still realistic given Ferrari looked better that weekend. I can only really say that was Hamilton driving that car very well that made him quicker than Vettel. I don't think mercedes were better that weekend.

Bottas still just about managed a good finishing position in France with 2nd although he certainly did start to struggle a bit. A worse race for him this time.

Mercedes struggled at Austria, but you have to be more against Hamilton for his drive than Bottas. Bottas got a realistic position with 3rd given the speed of the Red Bull and Verstappen that race. Hamilton looked to mess up his own race further by damaging his front wing. But despite Vettel starting from well down behind him plus a 2 stop strategy, he still got beaten. If Bottas got criticised in Canada, I think Hamilton should be here given it was the worse finishing position of the year for Mercedes.

Britain was another decent weekend for Bottas. Hamilton was just quicker during the race and managed his tyres much better. But was this Hamilton being outstanding or Bottas being poor. Probably more Hamilton managing those tyres far better than we expected since the team came out to pit him without him coming in. I have to say that Bottas looked very aggressive that race and I do think that something has changed a bit regarding his driving style this year. Both there and at the start of Baku, his defending was really strong against Hamilton. And as I said before, with respect to Hamilton for taking it easy too, these two keep it clean and most of the time both are getting solid results. Bottas may drop off a bit towards the end, but if I'm honest, some of those races in the last 2 seasons, he did help make it easier for Hamilton so effectively still was a good team player.

To put it short, I think Bottas certainly should remain with the team. He can look close to Hamilton, but doesn't do it too often and when Hamilton's on it, i don't think Bottas's form drops enough for the team to bother taking the risk of trying out a new driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:45 pm 
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It depends on Mercedes' mindset. To replace Bottas would indicate to me that they are beginning to think of the post-Hamilton era and are trying to find a successor. To keep Valteri would suggest that they are firmly concerned with only the here and now. In the present; Lewis and Valteri make the ideal lineup. They are like Michael and Rubens in terms of efficiently delivering both titles while maintaining harmony within the team.

At some point, however, Valteri will probably lose his seat simply because he is no replacement for Hamilton. He isn't a driver that a top team would build themselves around long-term and Mercedes will want to find out whether Russell or Ocon is. As far as bringing in Max; that would require Max to be interested; which he apparently is not. Based on comments from Mercedes, they have already approached him. Charles will also not be interested as he is very close to being #1 at Ferrari (a position most drivers dream of). So I think it will be either Russell or Ocon and I'm beginning to think it's going to happen. There isn't much more that Valteri could do to secure the seat for next year than he's already done but there is still no new deal. I only hope that Valteri ends up somewhere like Renault or Ferrari and not somewhere like Haas or Williams.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:02 pm 
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I quite like Bottas, but as the 2nd half of the season approaches us, I believe Hamilton will be flying off into the distance, specially with tracks like America, where Hamilton dominates at. I'm expecting Hamilton to get at least 12 or more wins in this season of 2019. Bottas struggling to get 3 or 4 at the most.

Interesting comments about Ocon and Russell... Yes, I would easily prefer to see George Russell in the other seat at Mercedes. With Hamilton possibly remaining in F1 for another 5 years?... I think he might go beyond Schumacher's record of 7 titles and go for 8 in total. If he so desires. Would love him to move to Ferrari and give them a title.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:37 pm 
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Mercedes haven't left themselves with a good option. Either they go back on their declaration that Ocon was definitely getting a seat next season (or possibly get him in somewhere else - but the only way they can assure that is if the seat is at Mercedes), or they let Bottas go when he's been putting in some fairly solid performances.

I think it's clear that Bottas isn't going to really challenge Hamilton, but that's not necessarily required. Under normal circumstances he would have done enough to keep the seat at least for another season. I think the main question here is rather they're going to prioritize keeping Bottas or keeping Ocon in their program.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:39 am 
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I would much rather see Russell in the seat than either Bottas or Ocon.

We’ve seen more than enough of Bottas to know that he will never seriously challenge Hamilton.

Ocon was barely any better than Perez in his third season of F1. He deserves to be on the grid but I just don’t rate him that highly and I don’t believe that he’s a serious upgrade on Bottas.

With Russell there is a level of intrigue. He dominated both GP2 and F2 in his rookie season. Now he’s smashing Kubica and doing the best he realistically can in the Williams.

I think that out of the three, Russell has the highest ceiling.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:33 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
We’ve seen more than enough of Bottas to know that he will never seriously challenge Hamilton.

While that may be true, does Merc really need anyone to be able to seriously challenge Hamilton? Do they need another Rosberg? 2017 and 2018 standings could've looked a lot different if there was Rosberg or someone else internally challenging Hamilton. That would have directly benefitted Ferrari and Vettel.
I think Bottas is perfect for them because he can deliver the occasional win and enough points to easily secure the WCC, but over the course of a season their clear WDC contender is Hamilton. Why change that?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:03 am 
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Yes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:29 am 
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In keeping with ferocious young talents having a crack at the top end of the grid, it's time to bring Russell to the hustle.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:48 am 
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Invade wrote:
In keeping with ferocious young talents having a crack at the top end of the grid, it's time to bring Russell to the hustle.


Well, Ocon is 22, still young and ferocious, he has ties with them and they have invested in him, so why bring Russell before him?

I would like Russell to get his shot, but I can't see him taking Bottas's seat before Ocon


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:23 am 
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I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:24 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Invade wrote:
In keeping with ferocious young talents having a crack at the top end of the grid, it's time to bring Russell to the hustle.


Well, Ocon is 22, still young and ferocious, he has ties with them and they have invested in him, so why bring Russell before him?

I would like Russell to get his shot, but I can't see him taking Bottas's seat before Ocon


True. Ocon will probably joinn before Russell due to being above Russell in the hierarchy. After Hamilton retires, I see Mercedes with their intended lineup - Ocon & Russell.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:28 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Invade wrote:
In keeping with ferocious young talents having a crack at the top end of the grid, it's time to bring Russell to the hustle.


Well, Ocon is 22, still young and ferocious, he has ties with them and they have invested in him, so why bring Russell before him?

I would like Russell to get his shot, but I can't see him taking Bottas's seat before Ocon


True. Ocon will probably joinn before Russell due to being above Russell in the hierarchy. After Hamilton retires, I see Mercedes with their intended lineup - Ocon & Russell.

I'm not so sure, they need at least one tier 1 driver, presently Ocon is tier 2 while it's too early to judge Russell?

If Ocon goes to Renault next year and gets beat convincingly by Ricciardo that could be Ocon out of the picture for starters?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:22 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I would much rather see Russell in the seat than either Bottas or Ocon.

We’ve seen more than enough of Bottas to know that he will never seriously challenge Hamilton.

Ocon was barely any better than Perez in his third season of F1. He deserves to be on the grid but I just don’t rate him that highly and I don’t believe that he’s a serious upgrade on Bottas.

With Russell there is a level of intrigue. He dominated both GP2 and F2 in his rookie season. Now he’s smashing Kubica and doing the best he realistically can in the Williams.

I think that out of the three, Russell has the highest ceiling.


Yep.. I think Russell coming into F1 was really bad timing for Ocon.

I can see Merc sticking with Bottas for at least one more year then picking Russell.

A lot of this depends on Hamilton's plans of course, as has already been mentioned.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Invade wrote:
In keeping with ferocious young talents having a crack at the top end of the grid, it's time to bring Russell to the hustle.


Well, Ocon is 22, still young and ferocious, he has ties with them and they have invested in him, so why bring Russell before him?

I would like Russell to get his shot, but I can't see him taking Bottas's seat before Ocon


True. Ocon will probably joinn before Russell due to being above Russell in the hierarchy. After Hamilton retires, I see Mercedes with their intended lineup - Ocon & Russell.

I'm not so sure, they need at least one tier 1 driver, presently Ocon is tier 2 while it's too early to judge Russell?

If Ocon goes to Renault next year and gets beat convincingly by Ricciardo that could be Ocon out of the picture for starters?


Bottas is in the same tier as well. He's winning a few races or getting poles just because of the car.

You may believe Ocon is Tier 2 but am sure Mercedes don't believe this. We'll have to wait for the summer break & beyond for knowing what transpires.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I would much rather see Russell in the seat than either Bottas or Ocon.

We’ve seen more than enough of Bottas to know that he will never seriously challenge Hamilton.

Ocon was barely any better than Perez in his third season of F1. He deserves to be on the grid but I just don’t rate him that highly and I don’t believe that he’s a serious upgrade on Bottas.

With Russell there is a level of intrigue. He dominated both GP2 and F2 in his rookie season. Now he’s smashing Kubica and doing the best he realistically can in the Williams.

I think that out of the three, Russell has the highest ceiling.


Yep.. I think Russell coming into F1 was really bad timing for Ocon.

I can see Merc sticking with Bottas for at least one more year then picking Russell.

A lot of this depends on Hamilton's plans of course, as has already been mentioned.


The only way Ocon doesn't become a Mercedes driver before Russell is if he gets put in a Renault, Haas etc and is well beaten by his team mate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

Exactly, aka the realistic level and the utopistic level.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:50 pm 
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What would be the deterrent to Merc for promoting Russell ahead of Ocon should they decide to replace Bottas?

Russell's pretty much the same age as Verstappen & Leclerc & about 18 months younger than Ocon. He's done everything that could've been asked of him this year. Both Leclerc & Verstappen have shown that it's possible for a young driver to jump straight into a top team successfully after just a single season in the sport while Ocon's been pretty much confined to simulator work with zero track racing for an entire season. Russell was even preferred to Ocon to drive the Merc during testing this year.

Could Merc see it as too much of a gamble to promote Ocon straight into the #2 seat after a season out of the game while they have another, possibly more promising option available who's got his race legs going & has hardly put a foot wrong all year?

For mine I think it's a big ask for Ocon to be parachuted straight into the top team after a season not only out of F1 but out of racing. If Bottas goes, it's Russell for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
What would be the deterrent to Merc for promoting Russell ahead of Ocon should they decide to replace Bottas?

Russell's pretty much the same age as Verstappen & Leclerc & about 18 months younger than Ocon. He's done everything that could've been asked of him this year. Both Leclerc & Verstappen have shown that it's possible for a young driver to jump straight into a top team successfully after just a single season in the sport while Ocon's been pretty much confined to simulator work with zero track racing for an entire season. Russell was even preferred to Ocon to drive the Merc during testing this year.

Could Merc see it as too much of a gamble to promote Ocon straight into the #2 seat after a season out of the game while they have another, possibly more promising option available who's got his race legs going & has hardly put a foot wrong all year?

For mine I think it's a big ask for Ocon to be parachuted straight into the top team after a season not only out of F1 but out of racing. If Bottas goes, it's Russell for me.


I think there's an argument for it but it's not going to happen for 2020.

Merc must rate Ocon or they wouldn't have kept him on and basically cost him a drive for 2019.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I would much rather see Russell in the seat than either Bottas or Ocon.

We’ve seen more than enough of Bottas to know that he will never seriously challenge Hamilton.

Ocon was barely any better than Perez in his third season of F1. He deserves to be on the grid but I just don’t rate him that highly and I don’t believe that he’s a serious upgrade on Bottas.

With Russell there is a level of intrigue. He dominated both GP2 and F2 in his rookie season. Now he’s smashing Kubica and doing the best he realistically can in the Williams.

I think that out of the three, Russell has the highest ceiling.


Yep.. I think Russell coming into F1 was really bad timing for Ocon.

I can see Merc sticking with Bottas for at least one more year then picking Russell.

A lot of this depends on Hamilton's plans of course, as has already been mentioned.


Hamilton has stated he will stick around for another 5 years


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:10 pm 
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He is perfect for them to win WCC's and Hamilton to break all the records powered by Mercedes. I can not see them changing him.

If they put another top driver (such as Verstappen) in the car all it will achieve is splitting more points with Hamilton and collisions and clashes between the pair.

Mercedes need to begin the search for a Hamilton replacement to get into the car around 2021 as Lewis approaches the end of his career.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.

Well I believe the Mercedes baseline for Ocon to replace Bottas was for him to beat Perez, unlike you I don't think that Mercedes rate Perez higher than Bottas?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:33 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Invade wrote:
In keeping with ferocious young talents having a crack at the top end of the grid, it's time to bring Russell to the hustle.


Well, Ocon is 22, still young and ferocious, he has ties with them and they have invested in him, so why bring Russell before him?

I would like Russell to get his shot, but I can't see him taking Bottas's seat before Ocon


True. Ocon will probably joinn before Russell due to being above Russell in the hierarchy. After Hamilton retires, I see Mercedes with their intended lineup - Ocon & Russell.

I'm not so sure, they need at least one tier 1 driver, presently Ocon is tier 2 while it's too early to judge Russell?

If Ocon goes to Renault next year and gets beat convincingly by Ricciardo that could be Ocon out of the picture for starters?


Bottas is in the same tier as well. He's winning a few races or getting poles just because of the car.

You may believe Ocon is Tier 2 but am sure Mercedes don't believe this. We'll have to wait for the summer break & beyond for knowing what transpires.

I never said anything different, you are basically replacing like for like, what you have with Bottas is a stable team, that's not necessarily guaranteed with Ocon?

If Mercedes truly believed Ocon was a tier 1 driver he would already be driving for Mercedes, matching another tier 2 driver, Perez, would suggest otherwise for the present anyway?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Yellowbin74 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I would much rather see Russell in the seat than either Bottas or Ocon.

We’ve seen more than enough of Bottas to know that he will never seriously challenge Hamilton.

Ocon was barely any better than Perez in his third season of F1. He deserves to be on the grid but I just don’t rate him that highly and I don’t believe that he’s a serious upgrade on Bottas.

With Russell there is a level of intrigue. He dominated both GP2 and F2 in his rookie season. Now he’s smashing Kubica and doing the best he realistically can in the Williams.

I think that out of the three, Russell has the highest ceiling.


Yep.. I think Russell coming into F1 was really bad timing for Ocon.

I can see Merc sticking with Bottas for at least one more year then picking Russell.

A lot of this depends on Hamilton's plans of course, as has already been mentioned.


The only way Ocon doesn't become a Mercedes driver before Russell is if he gets put in a Renault, Haas etc and is well beaten by his team mate.

Yep I mentioned that as well.

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2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:40 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
What would be the deterrent to Merc for promoting Russell ahead of Ocon should they decide to replace Bottas?

Russell's pretty much the same age as Verstappen & Leclerc & about 18 months younger than Ocon. He's done everything that could've been asked of him this year. Both Leclerc & Verstappen have shown that it's possible for a young driver to jump straight into a top team successfully after just a single season in the sport while Ocon's been pretty much confined to simulator work with zero track racing for an entire season. Russell was even preferred to Ocon to drive the Merc during testing this year.

Could Merc see it as too much of a gamble to promote Ocon straight into the #2 seat after a season out of the game while they have another, possibly more promising option available who's got his race legs going & has hardly put a foot wrong all year?

For mine I think it's a big ask for Ocon to be parachuted straight into the top team after a season not only out of F1 but out of racing. If Bottas goes, it's Russell for me.

I would say that it's a bigger ask for Russell to be parachuted into the team next year, Ocon has far more experience, in regards to Russell he is contracted to Williams next season, Mercedes sat him there to gain F1 experience, there is no rush for Russell, he is young and has time on his side.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
He is perfect for them to win WCC's and Hamilton to break all the records powered by Mercedes. I can not see them changing him.

If they put another top driver (such as Verstappen) in the car all it will achieve is splitting more points with Hamilton and collisions and clashes between the pair.

Mercedes need to begin the search for a Hamilton replacement to get into the car around 2021 as Lewis approaches the end of his career.

Yeah Hamilton has 1 more contract in him, at 36 you put someone alongside him to measure up if they are the future for Mercedes and that's not Bottas.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.

Well I believe the Mercedes baseline for Ocon to replace Bottas was for him to beat Perez, unlike you I don't think that Mercedes rate Perez higher than Bottas?

In terms of raw pace, I don't think anyone rates Perez higher than Bottas because Perez blatantly does not have Bottas's pace. Perez does have a knack for making tires last and that used to matter more back in the days when two-stop strategies used to be a thing but I think the shine has come off of the apple for Sergio to be honest. I think he's one of those guys that kind of plays up or down to the level of his teammate and we're seeing that now with Stroll. There is no real basis to compare Bottas and Perez directly other than to say that Bottas has been an exceptional qualifier and Perez has not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.

Well I believe the Mercedes baseline for Ocon to replace Bottas was for him to beat Perez, unlike you I don't think that Mercedes rate Perez higher than Bottas?

In terms of raw pace, I don't think anyone rates Perez higher than Bottas because Perez blatantly does not have Bottas's pace. Perez does have a knack for making tires last and that used to matter more back in the days when two-stop strategies used to be a thing but I think the shine has come off of the apple for Sergio to be honest. I think he's one of those guys that kind of plays up or down to the level of his teammate and we're seeing that now with Stroll. There is no real basis to compare Bottas and Perez directly other than to say that Bottas has been an exceptional qualifier and Perez has not.


Bottas is probably the better qualifier. Although if you're right about the team mate thing then Merc should forget about Ocon or Russell and just put Perez in the car.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.

Well I believe the Mercedes baseline for Ocon to replace Bottas was for him to beat Perez, unlike you I don't think that Mercedes rate Perez higher than Bottas?



I don't think anybody sensible would expect a driver to beat Perez comfortably in their first two seasons.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:50 pm 
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@Poker:

Mate, I believe Bottas is lucky to be in Mercedes this year after a dismal 2018. He's lucky because he extended his contract before Ricciardo signed with Renault & Lawrence replaced Ocon with Lance. Had the 2nd & 3rd instance taken place earlier, I'm quite sure Wolff would've signed Ocon instead of letting him be on the sidelines.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.

Well I believe the Mercedes baseline for Ocon to replace Bottas was for him to beat Perez, unlike you I don't think that Mercedes rate Perez higher than Bottas?



I don't think anybody sensible would expect a driver to beat Perez comfortably in their first two seasons.


True. Ocon did match him at times but was a better qualifier. Ocon got stronger as the races went by.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think there are two levels to this, what Mercedes are going to do and what people would like Mercedes to do?

By all accounts Mercedes are going to retain Bottas whilst Ocon is going to get placed in another team, it's looking like Renault are the favourites, if they were unable to do this then I believe they would replace Bottas with Ocon?

Presently there is no reason whatsoever to replace Bottas because Mercedes are dominating the results, 7 1-2's in 10 races plus there are no rule changes for next year so Mercedes should remain strong, replacing Bottas improves little if anything on that score plus Bottas is a good team player would Ocon be?

However what people would like to see is a driver that can challenge Hamilton more strongly and are tired of Bottas plus people like change anyway. Would Ocon fit that remit, well I think he would have to show more than matching Perez at Force India?


I think that would already be doing better than Bottas and that's his baseline. He probably has improvement to come from that. I think Ocon will end up a Button/Rosberg level driver. Better than the likes of Perez, Hulk, Sainz but not quite as good as the Hamilton's or Verstappen's.

Well I believe the Mercedes baseline for Ocon to replace Bottas was for him to beat Perez, unlike you I don't think that Mercedes rate Perez higher than Bottas?



I don't think anybody sensible would expect a driver to beat Perez comfortably in their first two seasons.

Well you inserted the word comfortably and I just said beat Perez or maybe I should have said more specifically shown that he was quicker than Perez, you think for instance a Hamilton level driver would not have been able to do that?

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:08 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
@Poker:

Mate, I believe Bottas is lucky to be in Mercedes this year after a dismal 2018. He's lucky because he extended his contract before Ricciardo signed with Renault & Lawrence replaced Ocon with Lance. Had the 2nd & 3rd instance taken place earlier, I'm quite sure Wolff would've signed Ocon instead of letting him be on the sidelines.

That is then, now is now, presently I see no gain in replacing Bottas with Ocon because of the level of performance of the Mercedes car and how well Bottas fits inside of the team as in no teammate crashes.

The only way that Bottas gets replaced is if another team cannot be found for Ocon.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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