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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:17 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


I think Wolff has been desperate for an excuse to put Ocon in for next year. Bottas started well but his season is mirroring 2017 and 2018 at the moment. His USP is that he can race with Hamilton without drama. Even then they did hit in the last race and Hamilton was very lucky not to have a puncture. Had he got one I think Bottas would have his P45 already.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Some people seem like they are trying pretty hard to find reasons to criticise him. Bottas simply said that when he tried to push harder, it just happened to result in that mistake. He then just mentioned that as an alternative, he could have just played it safe and not risked trying to get by. He simply did not sound like he was trying to blame the team. Regarding you mentioning Stroll, he is not bad at all in these conditions. He made a mistake that allowed Kvyat through, but drove flawlessly when ahead of Bottas. And in these conditions with these tryes, it surely is pretty damn hard to get by any car without them up ahead making a mistake. Look at Hamilton when he was stuck behind Grosjean. He had the same issue. I know Bottas making a mistake is still bad, no matter how many others did. But many other drivers that we consider good, crashed out or had a terrible race. That is why I think Bottas shouldn't be quite as heavily criticized for this. It is the only time he's ever retired down to his own mistake in his entire career. Everything shouldn't just be based on this weekend, even in including Hungary too.


"He then just mentioned that as an alternative, he could have just played it safe and not risked trying to get by" Fighting words from a guy who started the season trying to beat the best driver of the generation. Why not just stay home in his PJs? He finally got a chance to beat Lewis, and he says he'd rather just play safe and trundle home in 3rd place.

And now Stroll in a midfield car is a match for the Mercedes.

I am actually going to give up on replying to you. What are you even trying to say?


You are being a bit unreasonable here. Bottas DID NOT SAY that he'd rather do what i mentioned. He simply said that he could have done that. He and the team will have wanted to get better, so he tried but it unfortunately went wrong. This was only his afterthoughts at the end of the race - after he had retired. He won't have meant that without the team telling him to push, that he will have chosen to trundle home...

The Stroll comment, you are being unreasonable about too. Look at Stroll's wet drives. He has a couple of times now been outstanding in the wet (or at least well above his usual level). You say in the comment that you won't bother replying to me, it seems like you don't read it. I did not say Stroll's car is a match for the Mercedes. I mentioned that mistakes from drivers ahead was what most often was the result in an overtake. If the drivers ahead kept it clean, due to the track conditions, It will have been incredibly hard to go offline without loosing it. Strategy or tyre advantage was the main thing that resulted in overtakes this race, or drivers making mistakes. I even mentioned that the only reason Kvyat got past Stroll was because of Stroll's mistake. When drivers kept it clean, drivers on the same tyres really struggled to get by, no matter how good the car was. Remember me mentioning Hamilton behind Grosjean?

You have commented in a way that seems like you ignored or totally re worded how it was written.


You should go back and watch his post-race interview. He clearly implied the team shouldn't have asked him to push. He was happy trundling along in 3rd behind Stroll. Same Stroll who got easily passed by much lesser cars. You are somehow claiming Stroll is some world class driver. He's only better than Kubica on the whole grid. You're also forgetting that Bottas was driving a MERCEDES.

No, I did not forget Hamilton and Grosjean. Hamilton had a terrible race. You know what else Hamilton has had? Multiple championships, countless wins, and well on his way to another WDC this year even if he screws up a bunch of other races later this season. Hamilton can choose to have bad days, Bottas can't. So don't bring Lewis into the discussion.

Bottas had a chance of a lifetime to gain an upper hand on Lewis for one race. And he blew it. Bottas needs to be on his very very best every race. But according to you, he should just trundle in third place in the comfort of his mother's arms. It was Bottas's chance to shine and he didn't. Hamilton can get stuck behind Grosjean, he deserves a breather. Look at the lengths Rosberg had to go to to beat Lewis in 2016. Even then it took a little luck. But Rosberg was on it every time and doing the best he could. Bottas isn't. I never rated Bottas, but him showing his cowardice after Germany really made me hate him more. He still should be at Mercedes next year though since he's a good lap dog.

Bottas was actually in 4th place behind Stroll.


Correcto. Worse than how I remembered it. Not even a podium in the best car in business. Shameful.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


I think Wolff has been desperate for an excuse to put Ocon in for next year. Bottas started well but his season is mirroring 2017 and 2018 at the moment. His USP is that he can race with Hamilton without drama. Even then they did hit in the last race and Hamilton was very lucky not to have a puncture. Had he got one I think Bottas would have his P45 already.


Bottas is the perfect #2, and with the current car not bad. But he will be a liability if Red Bull catches up or Ferrari does. People keep thinking Mercedes will always be miles ahead. That WCC is worth money. I bet 1,2 in WDC also has some value that Bottas didn't get last year, and also not in 2017 IIRC. I'd personally keep Bottas since he's no BS guy. But Mercedes probably wants more even from a #2 driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


I think Wolff has been desperate for an excuse to put Ocon in for next year. Bottas started well but his season is mirroring 2017 and 2018 at the moment. His USP is that he can race with Hamilton without drama. Even then they did hit in the last race and Hamilton was very lucky not to have a puncture. Had he got one I think Bottas would have his P45 already.


People keep blaming Ocon for clashes when in Force India but they've forgotten Perez was the 1st one to initiate friction at Canada. Checo felt his no.1 status for being jeopardized due to Ocon's superior qualy pace & good race results as well. So Perez got a little flustered & on track collisions happened which even Ocon reciprocated with.

Force India was just a base to help Ocon get the hang of F1 & gain experience. When he were to join Mercedes ( a team which he dreams to win titles with) won't jeopardize his reputation by tangling with Hamilton. Since he's their reserve driver, he's know the team well & Hamilton too. He'll be respecting Hamilton more than Perez as well.

If people think Bottas is good, am sure Ocon is atleast as good as him. He's proven that in Force India he can be competitive for the word go. All the more easier in a good car of whose simulator he tests on regularly. Surely the simulator & the car will have some common traits to make his initial runs in the car of good value!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:09 pm 
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Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:14 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm a Hamilton fan would like to see Ocon given a chance.

Your theory might generally be correct, but I'm not convinced. I have no evidence to back that up, just a hunch.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:45 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?


Button beat Perez, and that was a season after the high of 2012 when Perez was a hot property.

While Perez beat Ocon twice, more convincingly in the second year. So your point being?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:13 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?


Button beat Perez, and that was a season after the high of 2012 when Perez was a hot property.

While Perez beat Ocon twice, more convincingly in the second year. So your point being?


Button beat Perez very marginally in terms of actual performance. Ocon looked marginally better than Perez in their second season. The points don't tell the full story.

I think Ocon could be a Button level driver already.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?


Button beat Perez, and that was a season after the high of 2012 when Perez was a hot property.

While Perez beat Ocon twice, more convincingly in the second year. So your point being?


Button beat Perez very marginally in terms of actual performance. Ocon looked marginally better than Perez in their second season. The points don't tell the full story.

I think Ocon could be a Button level driver already.


Button isn't one of the best champions though. He is like a Rosberg or a Danny Ric, clearly tier two in terms of talent. Perez is tier three because he couldn't get one over on Hulkenberg over three seasons, they were fairly evenly matched.

Perez is solid and doesn't look out of place in F1, and nor would Ocon, but neither of them need to be there, I think that is the point. If neither raced in F1 again, we wouldn't miss them, (whereas for example someone like Alonso we are missing at the moment; his talent in a good car shaking up the established order would be perfect for F1 right now as he is so talented).

Ocon had two full seasons and over 40 races and he didn't do one remarkable thing that stands out. Now he didn't overly crash the car or drive really slow so I can't fault him too much, but he didn't do anything that made you take notice and go ''Wow, now he is a true talent''.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:31 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?


Button beat Perez, and that was a season after the high of 2012 when Perez was a hot property.

While Perez beat Ocon twice, more convincingly in the second year. So your point being?


Button beat Perez very marginally in terms of actual performance. Ocon looked marginally better than Perez in their second season. The points don't tell the full story.

I think Ocon could be a Button level driver already.


Button isn't one of the best champions though. He is like a Rosberg or a Danny Ric, clearly tier two in terms of talent. Perez is tier three because he couldn't get one over on Hulkenberg over three seasons, they were fairly evenly matched.

Perez is solid and doesn't look out of place in F1, and nor would Ocon, but neither of them need to be there, I think that is the point. If neither raced in F1 again, we wouldn't miss them, (whereas for example someone like Alonso we are missing at the moment; his talent in a good car shaking up the established order would be perfect for F1 right now as he is so talented).

Ocon had two full seasons and over 40 races and he didn't do one remarkable thing that stands out. Now he didn't overly crash the car or drive really slow so I can't fault him too much, but he didn't do anything that made you take notice and go ''Wow, now he is a true talent''.


Probably like Button in his first few years. I would argue we were richer for having him involved in the sport.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
As a Hamilton fan I would like to see him challenged. Although it does seem some people just want any other driver no matter who it is, and if that doesn't work, keep chucking more drivers at the problem. The same problem RB face with finding someone to pair up with Max.

Indeed even Rosberg I believe got criticised until he finally won in 2016?


Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:55 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


I agree Rosberg was flattered a lot by the car.

On his bad day's he finished 2nd whilst Bottas finishes 4th. Rosberg was just a fraction quicker and willing to do things that Bottas isn't to get himself in Hamilton's head.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


I agree Rosberg was flattered a lot by the car.

On his bad day's he finished 2nd whilst Bottas finishes 4th. Rosberg was just a fraction quicker and willing to do things that Bottas isn't to get himself in Hamilton's head.


Yea, basically, had Hamilton had slightly worse luck in 2016, and Bottas had been his team mate, I think Bottas could quite easily have been champion that year. Bottas joining the team when they suddenly lost the large advantage over the rest to me either is making people rate Bottas lower than they should or the opposite for Rosberg. I think Rosberg is slightly better, but hardly anything in it. He made more and bigger mistakes, but was a bit quicker.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


I agree Rosberg was flattered a lot by the car.

On his bad day's he finished 2nd whilst Bottas finishes 4th. Rosberg was just a fraction quicker and willing to do things that Bottas isn't to get himself in Hamilton's head.

Rosberg is a fraction quicker than Bottas in qualifying.

Race pace - in my opinion Rosberg is vastly superior.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:18 pm 
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Bottas’ race pace and tyre management is just horrendous on so many weekends. Rosberg had some weekends with terrible race pace, but they were far and few in between. Most of the time Rosberg was somewhat able to stay in touch with Hamilton on Sunday even if he was behind into turn 1. When Bottas is behind Hamilton I just expect him to drop like a stone.

Has Bottas ever driven any race like Rosberg did at Bahrain 2014, Spain 2014, Canada 2015, USA 2015, Hungary 2016? Races where he’s behind Hamilton going into turn 1, yet able to pressure him and push him throughout the race?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


I agree Rosberg was flattered a lot by the car.

On his bad day's he finished 2nd whilst Bottas finishes 4th. Rosberg was just a fraction quicker and willing to do things that Bottas isn't to get himself in Hamilton's head.

Rosberg is a fraction quicker than Bottas in qualifying.

Race pace - in my opinion Rosberg is vastly superior.

Don't think I will disagree. But overall performence including some of rosbergs dirty moves and the fact he and hamilton have ruined eachothers race sometimes, I think Bottas is better in that area. Despite his recent performances, I think Bottas is a much cleaner driver than rosberg. And because of this is why I would only say Rosberg is slightly better overall.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:45 pm 
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It's hard to compare fro 14-16 era to 17 onwards as they are very different circumstances in my eyes. Bottas would always qualify 1st or 2nd in the majority of races between 14-16, now you make a mistake and you can be down to 6th. It's a bigger benefit to race in a 2 car race and even if you do have a bad start your car is so much quicker than anyone else so overtaking was easy.

I was never really that impressed with Rosbergs race pace but then I am comparing it to Hamilton who was majority of the time quicker. Rosberg didn't have great racecraft either so it sould be interesting to see how he did fighting other teams in a championship race.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?


Button beat Perez, and that was a season after the high of 2012 when Perez was a hot property.

While Perez beat Ocon twice, more convincingly in the second year. So your point being?


Button beat Perez very marginally in terms of actual performance. Ocon looked marginally better than Perez in their second season. The points don't tell the full story.

I think Ocon could be a Button level driver already.


Ocon and Perez were usually found very close to each other in 2018. I have never seen a pair of drivers so evenly matched. Let us take points out of the picture. Fact they kept running into each other reflects badly on Ocon. Ocon never asserted himself over Perez in two years together.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:51 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Bottas’ race pace and tyre management is just horrendous on so many weekends. Rosberg had some weekends with terrible race pace, but they were far and few in between. Most of the time Rosberg was somewhat able to stay in touch with Hamilton on Sunday even if he was behind into turn 1. When Bottas is behind Hamilton I just expect him to drop like a stone.

Has Bottas ever driven any race like Rosberg did at Bahrain 2014, Spain 2014, Canada 2015, USA 2015, Hungary 2016? Races where he’s behind Hamilton going into turn 1, yet able to pressure him and push him throughout the race?


Big difference between Bottas and Rosberg, besides race pace, is passion and drive. Granted Rosberg got clumsy since he reached the limits of his talent, he was at least always giving it all and trying to fight with Lewis. Him being clumsy and causing incidents is a separate matter. Bottas simply lacks that spark. Guy got upset he got told to overtake a Force India. How much lack of passion can you have?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:37 pm 
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I just can not imagine Ocon getting the same number of pole positions like Hamilton and beating him occasionally, like Bottas did 4/12 this year. He would be labeled super-talented.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:48 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ocon and Perez were dead equal. Ocon didn't prove a thing in Force India. A journeyman like Perez should be left in the dust by a supposedly WDC-material driver.

Like he was left in the dust by an actual WDC in 2013?


Button beat Perez, and that was a season after the high of 2012 when Perez was a hot property.

While Perez beat Ocon twice, more convincingly in the second year. So your point being?


Button beat Perez very marginally in terms of actual performance. Ocon looked marginally better than Perez in their second season. The points don't tell the full story.

I think Ocon could be a Button level driver already.


Button isn't one of the best champions though. He is like a Rosberg or a Danny Ric, clearly tier two in terms of talent. Perez is tier three because he couldn't get one over on Hulkenberg over three seasons, they were fairly evenly matched.

Perez is solid and doesn't look out of place in F1, and nor would Ocon, but neither of them need to be there, I think that is the point. If neither raced in F1 again, we wouldn't miss them, (whereas for example someone like Alonso we are missing at the moment; his talent in a good car shaking up the established order would be perfect for F1 right now as he is so talented).

Ocon had two full seasons and over 40 races and he didn't do one remarkable thing that stands out. Now he didn't overly crash the car or drive really slow so I can't fault him too much, but he didn't do anything that made you take notice and go ''Wow, now he is a true talent''.

Perez beat Hulkenberg over their 3 years together. Qualifying is the only area Hulk was ahead. Anything related to Sunday was Perez ahead - points, podiums, WDC standings, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:53 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
As a Hamilton fan I would like to see him challenged. Although it does seem some people just want any other driver no matter who it is, and if that doesn't work, keep chucking more drivers at the problem. The same problem RB face with finding someone to pair up with Max.

Indeed even Rosberg I believe got criticised until he finally won in 2016?


Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.

Hamilton lost more than the 5 point difference in bad starts alone. Yes Malaysia had a big impact but Lewis needs to shoulder some of the blame for those 5 points. And I'm pretty sure he himself recognised that he didn't take Rosberg's challenge seriously enough until it was too late

It wasn't Rosberg's best ever season performance but it's rubbish to suggest he never beat Hamilton fair and square. The likes of Australia and Suzuka instantly come to mind

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:05 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I just can not imagine Ocon getting the same number of pole positions like Hamilton and beating him occasionally, like Bottas did 4/12 this year. He would be labeled super-talented.

Was Rosberg labeled super-talented? He had a way better qualy record vs Hamilton than Bottas has

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:17 am 
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dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
As a Hamilton fan I would like to see him challenged. Although it does seem some people just want any other driver no matter who it is, and if that doesn't work, keep chucking more drivers at the problem. The same problem RB face with finding someone to pair up with Max.

Indeed even Rosberg I believe got criticised until he finally won in 2016?


Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.


Having deliberately allowed Hamilton to pass him at Monaco (which Hamilton won after Red Bull had no tyres ready at a pit stop), Rosberg got to a point where he had won 9 races to Hamilton's 6. From then on, Rosberg didn't have to win any more races to win the World Championship, and he took the less risky route of doing what was necessary to win the World Championship - which he did win.

That doesn't mean Rosberg was a faster driver than Hamilton, but he was able to do enough to get Hamilton into a state of anxiety.
As for Bottas - I think Hamilton sleeps very well. The team has always treated Bottas as the No. 2 driver and that is so well established that even when he tried to change that at the start of this year, he had to not just compete with Hamilton but had to change the teams attitude to him. He hasn't succeeded, but I think he was entitled to try - driving the Mercedes is probably his only chance at a World Title. Its not in the teams interest for Bottas to challenge Hamilton.

I would like to see F1 being a competitive sport, with the best drivers competing with each other, and I would like to see Hamilton having to work hard to earn the World Title. It needs to be one of the best drivers replacing Bottas for that to happen for the rest of this year. If they cannot replace Bottas with one of those, then they might as well keep him until the end of the year. At least Bottas can occasionally compete with Lewis in Q3.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:00 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
As a Hamilton fan I would like to see him challenged. Although it does seem some people just want any other driver no matter who it is, and if that doesn't work, keep chucking more drivers at the problem. The same problem RB face with finding someone to pair up with Max.

Indeed even Rosberg I believe got criticised until he finally won in 2016?


Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.


Having deliberately allowed Hamilton to pass him at Monaco (which Hamilton won after Red Bull had no tyres ready at a pit stop), Rosberg got to a point where he had won 9 races to Hamilton's 6. From then on, Rosberg didn't have to win any more races to win the World Championship, and he took the less risky route of doing what was necessary to win the World Championship - which he did win.

That doesn't mean Rosberg was a faster driver than Hamilton, but he was able to do enough to get Hamilton into a state of anxiety.
As for Bottas - I think Hamilton sleeps very well. The team has always treated Bottas as the No. 2 driver and that is so well established that even when he tried to change that at the start of this year, he had to not just compete with Hamilton but had to change the teams attitude to him. He hasn't succeeded, but I think he was entitled to try - driving the Mercedes is probably his only chance at a World Title. Its not in the teams interest for Bottas to challenge Hamilton.

I would like to see F1 being a competitive sport, with the best drivers competing with each other, and I would like to see Hamilton having to work hard to earn the World Title. It needs to be one of the best drivers replacing Bottas for that to happen for the rest of this year. If they cannot replace Bottas with one of those, then they might as well keep him until the end of the year. At least Bottas can occasionally compete with Lewis in Q3.


So Mercedes should keep him because of this? This is his 3rd year & the way things are shaping up he again won't be finishing runner up in the (arguably)fastest car on the grid!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:30 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!

Best car on the grid?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!

Best car on the grid?


Well it defiantly was in 2017 and even more definitely is in 2019.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


I think Wolff has been desperate for an excuse to put Ocon in for next year. Bottas started well but his season is mirroring 2017 and 2018 at the moment. His USP is that he can race with Hamilton without drama. Even then they did hit in the last race and Hamilton was very lucky not to have a puncture. Had he got one I think Bottas would have his P45 already.

I think it is Bottas' remit to not crash into Hamilton but I wouldn't be blaming Bottas if Hamilton had punctured in that instance.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
"He then just mentioned that as an alternative, he could have just played it safe and not risked trying to get by" Fighting words from a guy who started the season trying to beat the best driver of the generation. Why not just stay home in his PJs? He finally got a chance to beat Lewis, and he says he'd rather just play safe and trundle home in 3rd place.

And now Stroll in a midfield car is a match for the Mercedes.

I am actually going to give up on replying to you. What are you even trying to say?


You are being a bit unreasonable here. Bottas DID NOT SAY that he'd rather do what i mentioned. He simply said that he could have done that. He and the team will have wanted to get better, so he tried but it unfortunately went wrong. This was only his afterthoughts at the end of the race - after he had retired. He won't have meant that without the team telling him to push, that he will have chosen to trundle home...

The Stroll comment, you are being unreasonable about too. Look at Stroll's wet drives. He has a couple of times now been outstanding in the wet (or at least well above his usual level). You say in the comment that you won't bother replying to me, it seems like you don't read it. I did not say Stroll's car is a match for the Mercedes. I mentioned that mistakes from drivers ahead was what most often was the result in an overtake. If the drivers ahead kept it clean, due to the track conditions, It will have been incredibly hard to go offline without loosing it. Strategy or tyre advantage was the main thing that resulted in overtakes this race, or drivers making mistakes. I even mentioned that the only reason Kvyat got past Stroll was because of Stroll's mistake. When drivers kept it clean, drivers on the same tyres really struggled to get by, no matter how good the car was. Remember me mentioning Hamilton behind Grosjean?

You have commented in a way that seems like you ignored or totally re worded how it was written.


You should go back and watch his post-race interview. He clearly implied the team shouldn't have asked him to push. He was happy trundling along in 3rd behind Stroll. Same Stroll who got easily passed by much lesser cars. You are somehow claiming Stroll is some world class driver. He's only better than Kubica on the whole grid. You're also forgetting that Bottas was driving a MERCEDES.

No, I did not forget Hamilton and Grosjean. Hamilton had a terrible race. You know what else Hamilton has had? Multiple championships, countless wins, and well on his way to another WDC this year even if he screws up a bunch of other races later this season. Hamilton can choose to have bad days, Bottas can't. So don't bring Lewis into the discussion.

Bottas had a chance of a lifetime to gain an upper hand on Lewis for one race. And he blew it. Bottas needs to be on his very very best every race. But according to you, he should just trundle in third place in the comfort of his mother's arms. It was Bottas's chance to shine and he didn't. Hamilton can get stuck behind Grosjean, he deserves a breather. Look at the lengths Rosberg had to go to to beat Lewis in 2016. Even then it took a little luck. But Rosberg was on it every time and doing the best he could. Bottas isn't. I never rated Bottas, but him showing his cowardice after Germany really made me hate him more. He still should be at Mercedes next year though since he's a good lap dog.

Bottas was actually in 4th place behind Stroll.


Correcto. Worse than how I remembered it. Not even a podium in the best car in business. Shameful.

Well that was the reason why they put pressure on Bottas to pass Stroll, they wanted at least a podium as part of their celebrations.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:41 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm a Hamilton fan would like to see Ocon given a chance.

Your theory might generally be correct, but I'm not convinced. I have no evidence to back that up, just a hunch.

Well I didn't say all and it's not a critcism it's quite normal, same when Vettel was dominating I just wanted him to have a teammate that wasn't called Mark Webber.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:44 pm 
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dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
As a Hamilton fan I would like to see him challenged. Although it does seem some people just want any other driver no matter who it is, and if that doesn't work, keep chucking more drivers at the problem. The same problem RB face with finding someone to pair up with Max.

Indeed even Rosberg I believe got criticised until he finally won in 2016?


Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.

He won the title that was enough for some.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see perhaps two strong camps here, Hamilton fans and none Hamilton fans.

Hamilton fans in the main are happy for Bottas to be retained not just because he's beatable for Hamilton but also because he's trustable, he's a fair teammate, to say it's because Bottas offers no threat wouldn't exactly be true, he's been a threat in qualifying thus far so not exactly a push over?

None Hamilton fans simply want Hamilton to be challenged, Bottas doesn't fit that bill for them so let's try Ocon, if Ocon comes up short then on to the next one.

With Mercedes I don't see what they really gain, they have won everything with Bottas, you can't really improve on that, it's only when you fail that you may consider that something needs to change.


I'm not a fan of anyone but I would rather Mercedes go for Ocon purely because it will be more interesting seeing how he does than yet another year of Bottas being Bottas.


And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


I agree Rosberg was flattered a lot by the car.

On his bad day's he finished 2nd whilst Bottas finishes 4th. Rosberg was just a fraction quicker and willing to do things that Bottas isn't to get himself in Hamilton's head.

Indeed like parking the car at Monaco. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
And I feel Wolff is so itching to put Ocon in the 2nd seat at Mercedes. Bottas miraculously got 3 years at Mercedes (including this 1) & could never even finish runner up in the best car on the grid. He has his chance. Mercedes' driver program can't be frozen for another year now!


You really have to question if Rosberg would have finished runner up to Hamilton in 2014 or 2015 had mercedes been challenged by Ferrari more often like they were when Bottas was there. The total domination literally stopped when Bottas joined. I had mentioned before that 1 year in the mercedes dominant era, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton in points than Bottas was in 2017 and take Bottas's retirement in spain that year out of it, he would have been closer still. The last couple of years, I'm not 100% convinced it can easily be said the Mercedes was the best car. If it was, it was incredibly marginal overall IMO.


I agree Rosberg was flattered a lot by the car.

On his bad day's he finished 2nd whilst Bottas finishes 4th. Rosberg was just a fraction quicker and willing to do things that Bottas isn't to get himself in Hamilton's head.

Rosberg is a fraction quicker than Bottas in qualifying.

Race pace - in my opinion Rosberg is vastly superior.

Don't think I will disagree. But overall performence including some of rosbergs dirty moves and the fact he and hamilton have ruined eachothers race sometimes, I think Bottas is better in that area. Despite his recent performances, I think Bottas is a much cleaner driver than rosberg. And because of this is why I would only say Rosberg is slightly better overall.

Indeed what Rosberg was prepared to do at times wouldn't exactly have put Mercedes in good stead against Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:56 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Bottas’ race pace and tyre management is just horrendous on so many weekends. Rosberg had some weekends with terrible race pace, but they were far and few in between. Most of the time Rosberg was somewhat able to stay in touch with Hamilton on Sunday even if he was behind into turn 1. When Bottas is behind Hamilton I just expect him to drop like a stone.

Has Bottas ever driven any race like Rosberg did at Bahrain 2014, Spain 2014, Canada 2015, USA 2015, Hungary 2016? Races where he’s behind Hamilton going into turn 1, yet able to pressure him and push him throughout the race?


Big difference between Bottas and Rosberg, besides race pace, is passion and drive. Granted Rosberg got clumsy since he reached the limits of his talent, he was at least always giving it all and trying to fight with Lewis. Him being clumsy and causing incidents is a separate matter. Bottas simply lacks that spark. Guy got upset he got told to overtake a Force India. How much lack of passion can you have?

Bottas wouldn't get away with being clumsy and causing incidents, he would soon be out the door given his controlling 1 year contracts.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I just can not imagine Ocon getting the same number of pole positions like Hamilton and beating him occasionally, like Bottas did 4/12 this year. He would be labeled super-talented.

Indeed but it's nearly always been the case with Bottas that half the grid would do better in some eyes.

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:05 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
dpastern wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
As a Hamilton fan I would like to see him challenged. Although it does seem some people just want any other driver no matter who it is, and if that doesn't work, keep chucking more drivers at the problem. The same problem RB face with finding someone to pair up with Max.

Indeed even Rosberg I believe got criticised until he finally won in 2016?


Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.

Hamilton lost more than the 5 point difference in bad starts alone. Yes Malaysia had a big impact but Lewis needs to shoulder some of the blame for those 5 points. And I'm pretty sure he himself recognised that he didn't take Rosberg's challenge seriously enough until it was too late

It wasn't Rosberg's best ever season performance but it's rubbish to suggest he never beat Hamilton fair and square. The likes of Australia and Suzuka instantly come to mind

Hamilton had just the one engine problem?

However I would agree that Hamilton didn't take Rosberg seriously enough in the early part of the season until he got crashed out in Barcelona, however his comeback did get somewhat interfered with by the various engine penalties before the final blow up in Malaysia.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32145
mcdo wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I just can not imagine Ocon getting the same number of pole positions like Hamilton and beating him occasionally, like Bottas did 4/12 this year. He would be labeled super-talented.

Was Rosberg labeled super-talented? He had a way better qualy record vs Hamilton than Bottas has

He was thought as one of the best qualifiers in F1, even Schumacher praised his ability on that score.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4768
dpastern wrote:
Rosberg didn't win in 2016 - far from it. He was outdriven by Lewis for the entire year, but very bad mechanical luck cost Lewis that championship.


There were several things which made Rosberg get the WDC Title.

1. He conquered Hamilton strongholds, such as Spa, Monza and Suzuka.
2. He had a great start to the season and didn't lose hope and fought back after mid season results crisis. His comeback from summer break was phenomenal, and the last 4 races he was controlling the point balance with not much risk.
3. The crucial and decisive move was that on Verstappen. Rosberg overtook him in Japan (as well as Abu Dhabi), Hamilton did not and stayed behind Verstappen in Japan.

Hardly outdriven by Hamilton. Hardly.

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