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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:39 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wow is this thread just a month old and has 9 pages? Seems like the possibility of a driver moving team is more interesting to a lot than a race thread :D


Mate race threads usually get locked & sealed in 2 weeks. This thread's topic is a hot one here & in the paddock. Even though it's very likely Bottas will get one more year, the reason why rumours & speculations arose was because Mercedes took 1 month more to decide.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:50 am 
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Bottas is the entity the team knows, while Ocon is not, in the sense that he has not raced in the current car, or raced in general for more than a year. It makes only logical sense to keep Bottas.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:00 am 
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There's a story going around that Mercedes-Benz is okay with Bottas' mediocrity and Ocon has signed a two-year deal with Renault to replaced Hulkenberg.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:55 am 
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Todd wrote:
There's a story going around that Mercedes-Benz is okay with Bottas' mediocrity and Ocon has signed a two-year deal with Renault to replaced Hulkenberg.

Meanwhile, there's a reality going around that Mercedes Benz has won the last two WDCs and WCCs with Bottas in the team, when facing an equal (or better) Ferrari team in those seasons, they are clearly ahead in this year's WCC, with their drivers first and second in the championship, Mercedes have 7 one-twos from 12 races and the performance gap to their rivals is on an upward trend.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:35 am 
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Todd wrote:
There's a story going around that Mercedes-Benz is okay with Bottas' mediocrity and Ocon has signed a two-year deal with Renault to replaced Hulkenberg.

I'm not sure that you can create stories that actually don't exist in the first place?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Todd wrote:
There's a story going around that Mercedes-Benz is okay with Bottas' mediocrity and Ocon has signed a two-year deal with Renault to replaced Hulkenberg.

I'm not sure that you can create stories that actually don't exist in the first place?


In fairness I remember reading this rumour somewhere on Twitter but unsure of the source. Whilst I do believe it's "pinch of salt" stuff, the rumour does exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Todd wrote:
There's a story going around that Mercedes-Benz is okay with Bottas' mediocrity and Ocon has signed a two-year deal with Renault to replaced Hulkenberg.

I'm not sure that you can create stories that actually don't exist in the first place?


When you search "Esteban Ocon Renault", you find rather a lot of thigs that are looking like this could well be the case. I think it is a bit much to effectively say "stories that don't exist".

https://f1i.com/news/351590-esteban-oco ... nault.html
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/formula ... ar-AAGanwn

More official sites don't have this yet, although Planet F1 is saying that is is looking very likely.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ocon-repo ... r-renault/
There is definitely a story going round that Ocon looks to be going to Renault, so I don't see an issue with what Todd said. I didn't think this myself until i did a very simple search. But then i found out that there are plenty of articles mentioning this that are only very recent.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:34 pm 
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It depends on how do you define what is a rumour. If somebody here posts something saying he heard that driver X has signed with team Y, does that count as a rumour or an existing story even when there is no clear source?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:58 pm 
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Does anyone who called me a liar want to apologize for failing to do a bit of research before exposing themselves? It's on the cover of Auto Hebdo. It was a headline on three other online F1 journals that I've seen. There is a story going around. Did I say it was a fact? I don't know if it is or not, but I also don't call people liars if I don't know that they are lying. It certainly looks like there is a correlation between calling me a liar and being intellectually lazy at best.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Todd wrote:
There's a story going around that Mercedes-Benz is okay with Bottas' mediocrity and Ocon has signed a two-year deal with Renault to replaced Hulkenberg.

Meanwhile, there's a reality going around that Mercedes Benz has won the last two WDCs and WCCs with Bottas in the team, when facing an equal (or better) Ferrari team in those seasons, they are clearly ahead in this year's WCC, with their drivers first and second in the championship, Mercedes have 7 one-twos from 12 races and the performance gap to their rivals is on an upward trend.


Just to be clear, I'm not accusing TheGiantHogweed, SILVAFOXX or you of anything. We can disagree without impugning each other's characters.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Does anyone who called me a liar want to apologize for failing to do a bit of research before exposing themselves? It's on the cover of Auto Hebdo. It was a headline on three other online F1 journals that I've seen. There is a story going around. Did I say it was a fact? I don't know if it is or not, but I also don't call people liars if I don't know that they are lying. It certainly looks like there is a correlation between calling me a liar and being intellectually lazy at best.

Sorry for your experience. The average level of communication culture of PF1 forum members is quite low, with a few brilliant exceptions, to whom I put my hat off.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:29 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Todd wrote:
Does anyone who called me a liar want to apologize for failing to do a bit of research before exposing themselves? It's on the cover of Auto Hebdo. It was a headline on three other online F1 journals that I've seen. There is a story going around. Did I say it was a fact? I don't know if it is or not, but I also don't call people liars if I don't know that they are lying. It certainly looks like there is a correlation between calling me a liar and being intellectually lazy at best.

Sorry for your experience. The average level of communication culture of PF1 forum members is quite low, with a few brilliant exceptions, to whom I put my hat off.


I think your post is about to become very ironic.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:39 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Todd wrote:
Does anyone who called me a liar want to apologize for failing to do a bit of research before exposing themselves? It's on the cover of Auto Hebdo. It was a headline on three other online F1 journals that I've seen. There is a story going around. Did I say it was a fact? I don't know if it is or not, but I also don't call people liars if I don't know that they are lying. It certainly looks like there is a correlation between calling me a liar and being intellectually lazy at best.

Sorry for your experience. The average level of communication culture of PF1 forum members is quite low, with a few brilliant exceptions, to whom I put my hat off.

I'd actually say the opposite. The average is pretty good. The exceptions are the negative ones.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Does anyone who called me a liar want to apologize for failing to do a bit of research before exposing themselves? It's on the cover of Auto Hebdo. It was a headline on three other online F1 journals that I've seen. There is a story going around. Did I say it was a fact? I don't know if it is or not, but I also don't call people liars if I don't know that they are lying. It certainly looks like there is a correlation between calling me a liar and being intellectually lazy at best.

I'm referring to you saying that Mercedes are happy with Bottas' mediocrity, I'm well aware of the rumours regarding 2020.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Todd wrote:
Does anyone who called me a liar want to apologize for failing to do a bit of research before exposing themselves? It's on the cover of Auto Hebdo. It was a headline on three other online F1 journals that I've seen. There is a story going around. Did I say it was a fact? I don't know if it is or not, but I also don't call people liars if I don't know that they are lying. It certainly looks like there is a correlation between calling me a liar and being intellectually lazy at best.

I'm referring to you saying that Mercedes are happy with Bottas' mediocrity, I'm well aware of the rumours regarding 2020.


Yes, that's the story I'm still waiting for him to provide a link to.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 pm 
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Are you suggesting that you have a complete inability to communicate via the written word that excuses your false accusations?

I seem to recall Bottas being told that he was being given two races to alleviate Mercedes management's concerns that he hasn't delivered at the level expected of someone with his opportunities. He responded by achieving pretty much nothing. They decided they were okay with that. Mediocrity is a charitable characterization of what Mercedes-Benz accepts from Bottas.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:06 am 
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Confirmed by @MercedesAMGF1
Quote:
To whom it may concern... 😉 He’s staying! 👊

@ValtteriBottas will race for the team next season! 💙🔥

https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/status/1167014295080755201


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:30 am 
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Yup, Bottas drives for Mercedes for 2020... https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/27 ... cedes-2020

On to the next silly season furball...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:32 am 
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Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Are you suggesting that you have a complete inability to communicate via the written word that excuses your false accusations?

I seem to recall Bottas being told that he was being given two races to alleviate Mercedes management's concerns that he hasn't delivered at the level expected of someone with his opportunities. He responded by achieving pretty much nothing. They decided they were okay with that. Mediocrity is a charitable characterization of what Mercedes-Benz accepts from Bottas.


I'd imagine that Hamilton also had quite a large say in the decision to keep Bottas. Perfect partner for Lewis. Keep the mediocre wingman.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:11 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Are you suggesting that you have a complete inability to communicate via the written word that excuses your false accusations?

I seem to recall Bottas being told that he was being given two races to alleviate Mercedes management's concerns that he hasn't delivered at the level expected of someone with his opportunities. He responded by achieving pretty much nothing. They decided they were okay with that. Mediocrity is a charitable characterization of what Mercedes-Benz accepts from Bottas.


I think someone here suggested that Merc had said that but I don't think any sources were ever cited & if they did then it'd be a pretty ordinary statement for the team to make.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:28 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:12 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:50 pm 
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If Hamilton had retired at the end of last year, and Merc replaced him with a driver that was 0.1 second a lap slower than Bottas at every race, Bottas would be on 250 points in the championship right now, the same number that Hamilton is on.

These points were determined by automatically elevating him by one position in ever race that Hamilton finished ahead of him, and then giving him the win in Monaco (as he would have pitted first so would not have collided with Max) and giving him second place in Hungary (as he would not have had the first lap incident with Hamilton that caused him to drop down the field) - this adds 62 points to his deficit - exactly the same number Hamilton is ahead of him by.

It's therefore unfair to categorise Bottas as a driver who would not be able to mount a WDC challenge given that against a lesser team mate he would be walking it this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Are you suggesting that you have a complete inability to communicate via the written word that excuses your false accusations?

I seem to recall Bottas being told that he was being given two races to alleviate Mercedes management's concerns that he hasn't delivered at the level expected of someone with his opportunities. He responded by achieving pretty much nothing. They decided they were okay with that. Mediocrity is a charitable characterization of what Mercedes-Benz accepts from Bottas.

You clearly stated that there is a story going around that Mercedes are happy with Bottas' mediocrity, can you show me were they actually said that or at least an article that said that?

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:50 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
If Hamilton had retired at the end of last year, and Merc replaced him with a driver that was 0.1 second a lap slower than Bottas at every race, Bottas would be on 250 points in the championship right now, the same number that Hamilton is on.

These points were determined by automatically elevating him by one position in ever race that Hamilton finished ahead of him, and then giving him the win in Monaco (as he would have pitted first so would not have collided with Max) and giving him second place in Hungary (as he would not have had the first lap incident with Hamilton that caused him to drop down the field) - this adds 62 points to his deficit - exactly the same number Hamilton is ahead of him by.

It's therefore unfair to categorise Bottas as a driver who would not be able to mount a WDC challenge given that against a lesser team mate he would be walking it this year.

Things don't exactly play out like that, is it not called the butterfly affect?

Anyway In Bahrain Vettel would have won because Hamilton wouldn't have been there to push Vettel into a spin, Bottas had nowhere near the pace to beat Vettel and win the race.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:06 pm 
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If they resigned Bottas being unhappy with his mediocrity, then that would make them insane. One definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. Go ahead and continue lying to yourself if it soothes you. I'm over the urge to pretend you're going to reply with anything that resembles integrity.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Todd wrote:
If they resigned Bottas being unhappy with his mediocrity, then that would make them insane. One definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. Go ahead and continue lying to yourself if it soothes you. I'm over the urge to pretend you're going to reply with anything that resembles integrity.

So you think that Mercedes have been mediocre for the last 3 seasons? The great teams do not need to be great in every single department – it’s all about finding the right balance. The current Mercedes team is on track to be in the conversation for one of the greatest teams of all time, and that conversation surely extends beyond F1?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:35 pm 
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Todd wrote:
If they resigned Bottas being unhappy with his mediocrity, then that would make them insane. One definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. Go ahead and continue lying to yourself if it soothes you. I'm over the urge to pretend you're going to reply with anything that resembles integrity.

First of all find me any article that states that Mercedes consider Bottas to be mediocre.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:15 pm 
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The main reason I can think of for Mercedes extending his contract is that he gets along with Hamilton, something the team will value highly after watching Rosberg and Hamilton tangle on multiple occasions. In terms of performances alone, I don't think Bottas has been good enough.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:28 pm 
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As expected. Now I can see Bottas performance dipping after renewal.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:36 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.

Bottas is close enough to Hamilton though to pick up good points and put his car between Hamilton and competitors with relative consistency, and not to close to bring about discord in the team. I just don’t see the Ferrari partnership working long term – if they remain closely matched it will bring fireworks, and if LeClerc improves then Vettel will not settle for number 2. And while they remain closely matched they will continue to draw mistakes from one another. OK Bottas is prone to mistakes too but he is walking a fine line between delivering for Mercedes and trying to beat Hamilton.

Also, next year’s tyres with a wider working window that the drivers can push harder on could well reduce or eliminate one of Botts’ big weaknesses.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:45 pm 
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All that said, I completely understand that people want to see things mixed up. We know what to expect from Hamilton-Bottas. Mercedes should sign Verstappen. They’ve enjoyed enough success and can afford some fireworks.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
If Hamilton had retired at the end of last year, and Merc replaced him with a driver that was 0.1 second a lap slower than Bottas at every race, Bottas would be on 250 points in the championship right now, the same number that Hamilton is on.

These points were determined by automatically elevating him by one position in ever race that Hamilton finished ahead of him, and then giving him the win in Monaco (as he would have pitted first so would not have collided with Max) and giving him second place in Hungary (as he would not have had the first lap incident with Hamilton that caused him to drop down the field) - this adds 62 points to his deficit - exactly the same number Hamilton is ahead of him by.

It's therefore unfair to categorise Bottas as a driver who would not be able to mount a WDC challenge given that against a lesser team mate he would be walking it this year.

Things don't exactly play out like that, is it not called the butterfly affect?

Anyway In Bahrain Vettel would have won because Hamilton wouldn't have been there to push Vettel into a spin, Bottas had nowhere near the pace to beat Vettel and win the race.

You are taking my post way too literally. I wasn't proposing that that would actually be the championship score if we went back and made that change - everything affects everything else. If Vettel had won in Bahrain he probably wouldn't have gone off in turn 3 at Canada as the pressure would not have been as high. My point is that the narrative of many on here is that Bottas is woefully underperforming when if fact - given the fact he's often finished second to Hamilton, without Hamilton Bottas has a commanding lead in the championship as well. Of course the actual result would be different to that.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Glad that Bottas has remained with Mercedes and Ocon now has now moved to Renault on loan . Just waiting for Grosjean's move?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.


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I couldn't help but notice in the press conference that Bottas made no mention of trying to win this year's title. Just that he wanted to have a strong finish to the year. I wonder if one of the conditions to his extension was to accept that his 2019 title bid was over, and his job was now to help fend off Max.

I also found it very telling that Verstappen was directly asked about his championship challenge, Bottas was not.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:54 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.


I didn't think there was ever a race where Bottas was outraced by all 5 other drivers in the top 3 teams. There were multiple races near the end of last season where he finished 5th though and that possibly could have been 6th without retirements from the other teams though we can't prove it.

I thought that some did think that Ferrari was close to or equal to mercedes in the past couple of years, so I don't think it is that unrealistic that vettel beat him both times. the end of last year certainly was disappointing and the fact he finished 5th was down to this poor form. but then you also could say that he would have finished 3rd had it not been for team orders in Russia.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:10 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.


I didn't think there was ever a race where Bottas was outraced by all 5 other drivers in the top 3 teams. There were multiple races near the end of last season where he finished 5th though and that possibly could have been 6th without retirements from the other teams though we can't prove it.

I thought that some did think that Ferrari was close to or equal to mercedes in the past couple of years, so I don't think it is that unrealistic that vettel beat him both times. the end of last year certainly was disappointing and the fact he finished 5th was down to this poor form. but then you also could say that he would have finished 3rd had it not been for team orders in Russia.

If Bottas hadn't have been ordered to give his Russia win to Hamilton those 7 points would have put him third in the championship.


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